Are American kids turning into spoiled little assholes? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Jazz · 04-15-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

On a recent soggy morning, Mark Theissen covered a lot of ground fast in his first-grade classroom at Vadnais Heights Elementary School. He sprang from station to station, encouraging students to finish and focus -- sound words out, craft Lego configurations mathematically, grip Crayolas in the correct way.

He asked questions but didn't back-pat; he prodded but didn't praise. Nor did he carry the ball, merely offering assists. That's because when Theissen, 36, began teaching in 2000, the backlash against overpraising children was in full swing.

"I try to avoid complimenting them all the time," he said. "If they get strokes for everything, they expect it, they think everything they do is great -- and they don't want to push themselves. I think they need to develop self-drive and the need to perform for personal satisfaction, not recognition from others."

But affirmation overload, most experts agree, is indeed a tough habit to break.

It began as the byproduct of the 1980s self-esteem movement, in which parents and teachers were told to reward and stroke kids pretty much constantly, supposedly to make them confident.

Dr. Ernie Swihart, an author and behavioral pediatrician at South Lake Pediatrics in Minnetonka, decried the self-esteem movement from its inception. Then, as now, he believed kids should be taught to be inwardly focused, self-sufficient creatures able to shift their own gears.

Real self-esteem -- for all of us -- comes from overcoming an obstacle-laden challenge, he believes, with hard work. Lavishing praise, he contends, is counterproductive and, if anything, makes kids needy and voracious for that other self-esteem-movement buzzword: validation.

"It's had serious repercussions," Swihart said. "These young adults who were raised in the '80s, now in their 20s and in the workplace -- those who received praise, rewards and prizes for everything they did without working very hard -- often are very entitled and self-absorbed.

"And in this economy, baseless self-satisfaction and entitlement are dangerous. Those are the people who are first to be let go."

Kids need honest feedback

But the overpraise culture still exists. Go to any baseball field this spring and you'll hear parents calling out "good job" and "great swing" to a kid who fans the ball by 6 inches. What they probably should be saying, if anything, Swihart says, is the more honest "no big deal," "next time" or "that's OK."

If all kids get is kudos, it can be a recipe for lots of therapy later, he says: What are they going to do when they get even the slightest bit of criticism later in life, in college or on the job?

"The roof falls in. They should get honest, but not hurtful, feedback," Swihart said. "Steady, ongoing correction."

Steven McManus, a family therapist in Golden Valley, agreed.

"Although I think this [over-praising] movement is basically rooted in good intentions, these are often the young adults I see as clients," McManus said. "Often they have difficulty at conflict resolution, disappointment or tolerating any negative emotions at all."

Rheta DeVries, a professor of education at the University of Northern Iowa in Cedar Falls, classified overpraise of children as "sugar-coated control." "All teachers are well-intended, and I don't like to criticize teachers," DeVries said. But if they praise early and praise often, it can foster kids who clamor constantly for recognition, like seals barking for fish.

"[Overpraising] manages children's behavior. And, though we mostly know it's counterproductive, we still hear it all the time. Established universities are sending out student teachers and the only thing coming out of their mouths is 'good job,' 'good job,' 'good job.'

"It's like a verbal tic."

Reining in the praise impulse made immediate sense to Theissen as a new teacher, he said: It just rang true that cooing and gooing at kids all the time builds outer-directed praise junkies. In the nine years since, he's become even more convinced that gushing over every small accomplishment backfires, coddling kids to their detriment.

Although Theissen tries to run a platitude-free zone, he conceded that it can be a challenge. At home, the father of three young children and his wife (also an elementary school teacher) sometimes catch themselves starting to "good job" their own kids.

"I guess we're just all so ingrained to it," he said.

A culture of superlatives

In academia, the praise culture has led not just to grade inflation, but grade obfuscation. At Vadnais Heights and all its elementary schools, the White Bear Lake School District's policy is to grade students as "Needs to Improve," "Progressing," "Progressing Plus," "Successful" or "Exceptional."

Which raises the questions: Huh? Progressing from what? From a B level or a D level? From above average or below? Theissen concedes that today's grading systems can confuse, whereas "parents know what a C means."

But we are loath as a culture to use letter grades, pointed out Becky Farber, principal at Carondelet Catholic School in Minneapolis and a former teacher and middle school director at the Breck School in Golden Valley. Farber said all teachers ascribed, at least for a time, to the praise-them-to-the-skies theory.

"We all tried it in the '80s -- until we sort of realized en masse that it wasn't genuine, and it wasn't effective."

But even though the pendulum has swung back, Farber said, it remains largely a culture of superlatives. We're reluctant to call anyone -- and anyone's performance -- average.

"We tell everyone they're great and excellent and the best," Farber said. "And so they go around thinking, 'Wow, we're the best' at whatever -- say, basketball. And then they play Hopkins, and they realize, 'Maybe not.'

"Even Garrison Keillor classifies all the children of Minnesota as above average," she said. "There are these sad and negative connotations to the term, but the truth is, most of us fall in that bell curve, the bell curve of average.

"Why are we so afraid to say it?"

Are we 'Good-job!'-ing our kids to pieces?

Play a sport, get a trophy, even if you finish last. Even if you sucked harder than any suck that ever sucked a suck. We've surgically cut away any chance of competition kids get today. I've got a problem with that.

I never got a trophy or medal that I didn't earn in one way or another. I might have gotten 27th in a race and medalled for it because whoever had extra money to spend on medals that season, but that one went to the back of the drawer, and there were usually 150 guys in the race.

Crybaby kids will turn into crybaby adults. If there's anything that will annoy me faster, it's people who know what the rules are but think that they don't apply to them because they're "special".

Does anyone else see this as being an issue? Are we coddling our kids too much?

shakran · 04-15-2009, 10:28 AM

Hell yes. Though I take objection to "turning into." They've been that way for years. I don't know why people suddenly decided that kids are too fragile to have anything bad EVER happen to them, but that theory has done more damage to our society than I think we can reasonably calculate.

Plan9 · 04-15-2009, 10:32 AM

I concur.

Rewarding mediocrity simply dilutes the accomplishment food chain.

Classic example of warm 'n fuzzy Dr. Phil vs. the cliche themes of Fight Club.

Why are we adjusting the life grading curve so much these days?

Perhaps we can't handle the truth: some people just suck.

...

I also agree that it ruins competition and rules.

People that get medals for nothing as kids expect to get out of traffic tickets, expect to get a promotion at work after a year regardless of performance, etc. It erodes responsibility and achievement.

...

I look at my military career as an example: I have 10 ribbons for two pointless deployments.

I watched awards ceremonies where paper-pushing rear echelon fuckers got bronze stars.

Some guys that did three tours in 'Nam have half of that. And they actually lived through shit.

...

Harden the fuck up, America.

snowy · 04-15-2009, 10:33 AM

It's important to offer praise when it's appropriate--it helps kids to develop self-efficacy, the belief that they can try new things and be successful at them. But we ought to let kids know what success really is, and when they've fallen short of the mark. However, our benchmarks for success should be realistic and developmentally appropriate.

I think that's one of the major issues--knowledge about child development should be more publicly available and more widespread, and parents and educators should have a better idea of what is developmentally appropriate for a child.

One of the things I see now and again in my line of work are children who think it's okay to cheat. Their parents have allowed them to modify the rules of games so that they win, or parents haven't played fairly so that the child is always allowed to win. I am a stickler for following the rules in games--I think it's a slippery slope best avoided. Children ought to learn that rules are in place for a reason, and that they won't always win. Last spring I cared for a child who was playing teeball in a city league wherein they didn't keep score, but he always knew the score, and whether they had won or lost. What's the point in not keeping score? Children have to learn to deal with losing. We all fail on the path to success. I think it's really important that kids fail occasionally and learn to handle failure. I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't learned to get back up and dust myself off.

completelyjaded · 04-15-2009, 10:35 AM

I see it manifesting as young adults with a sense of entitlement, you know the attitude of "you owe me"...I made a conscious choice NOT to have children and I don't owe them or anyone else a damn thing.

I have no time for whiners or crybabies...life is too short. Life is tough, get on with it.
When life's obstacles pop up in the road, I find a way to knock 'em down, or go around 'em.

Glory's Sun · 04-15-2009, 10:36 AM

I remember when I was in jr. high and high school.. some coaches would put the really shitty kids into games because either their parents complained or they thought they had to play everyone. Fuck that. I didn't want to sit the bench while brace-face jimmy lost the game for us.

When I'm with my kids and they don't even try to do something I ask them to try to do it themselves. Usually they'll keep trying until they do it, when they do..I'll give them praise. I just want them to understand that they have to do things on their own sometimes as well as work for it. Every kid needs to be handled differently, but to just give them praise and rewards just so they don't get their feelings hurt is stupid.

snowy · 04-15-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

When I'm with my kids and they don't even try to do something I ask them to try to do it themselves. Usually they'll keep trying until they do it, when they do..I'll give them praise. I just want them to understand that they have to do things on their own sometimes as well as work for it. Every kid needs to be handled differently, but to just give them praise and rewards just so they don't get their feelings hurt is stupid.

This is an excellent approach, gucci--it encourages independence instead of dependence, and allows your children to create that sense of self-efficacy I talked about in my previous post.

Plan9 · 04-15-2009, 10:52 AM

Ya give the dog the treat for doing the trick, not for sitting up and begging for the treat.

dksuddeth · 04-15-2009, 10:54 AM

you know, when kids FIRST start junior sports and all that, I can see wanting to reward them even if they finish last. peewee football and stuff. But at some point, like 10 years old or so, its time to put them in reality and make them realize that there is no trophy for last place.

The_Jazz · 04-15-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

you know, when kids FIRST start junior sports and all that, I can see wanting to reward them even if they finish last. peewee football and stuff. But at some point, like 10 years old or so, its time to put them in reality and make them realize that there is no trophy for last place.

DK, you are the LAST person that I ever thought would say something like that. No offense intended, but your response reeks of compromise (not that compromise is in any way a negative). You've got an arbitrary cut-off of ten. Why not eight? Or twelve? Or five? Or eighteen? It's a slippery slope, and I know how much you detest those, at least when the Constitution's involved.

When you're last, you're last. Getting a trophy for a shitty performance seems disengenuous at best and insulting at worst. A kid is going to throw a tempertantrum when the lose - when they're little anyway. It's a learning experience.

I remember a thread from a couple of years ago about helicopter parents doing work for their kids. Not school work, work work. As in the kid got paid for it. That's the endgame that I see from this sort of behavior.

Baraka_Guru · 04-15-2009, 11:10 AM

Failure is the best opportunity for learning.

The most successful people in the world would not be so if it weren't for the string of failures in their past.

History is full of success born out of failure.

It is a bad precedent to remove (or trivialize, even) the experience of failure from children. As youths, this is the best time to experience failure, as the stakes are generally very low compared to the adult "real" world. I can't believe this trend continues. People often need to fail to find out how to get what they want. Success doesn't fall into your lap.

Rewarding mediocrity reinforces mediocrity—not to mention a sense of entitlement. In university you get:

"I need an A to get into law school. Will you bump my grade up?"
"Uh, your paper was barely worth a B."
"But I need to get into law school. I'm paying to be here. My parents help pay your salary."
"Yeah, but I'm tenured. Enjoy your B."

Yeah..."B" for brat.

snowy · 04-15-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Rewarding mediocrity reinforces mediocrity—not to mention a sense of entitlement. In university you get:

"I need an A to get into law school. Bump my grade up."
"Uh, your paper was barely worth a B."
"But I need to get into law school. My parents help pay your salary."
"Yeah, but I'm tenured. Enjoy your B."

Yeah..."B" for brat.

My sociology professor last term had to stand up in front of lecture and tell the class, "Your grade is not up for negotiation. I am willing to double-check my numbers in case of error, but do not come to my office hours and expect to convince me you earned an A when in fact you earned a C." I guess she had had several students from my class come to her and try to get her to change their grade. Ridiculous.

Cynthetiq · 04-15-2009, 11:18 AM

I believe in failure.... and this man's essay is testament to that...

Quote:

Failure Is a Good Thing
As heard on NPR's Morning Edition, October 9, 2006.

Last week, my granddaughter started kindergarten, and, as is conventional, I wished her success. I was lying. What I actually wish for her is failure. I believe in the power of failure.

Success is boring. Success is proving that you can do something that you already know you can do, or doing something correctly the first time, which can often be a problematical victory. First-time success is usually a fluke. First-time failure, by contrast, is expected; it is the natural order of things.

Failure is how we learn. I have been told of an African phrase describing a good cook as "she who has broken many pots." If you've spent enough time in the kitchen to have broken a lot of pots, probably you know a fair amount about cooking. I once had a late dinner with a group of chefs, and they spent time comparing knife wounds and burn scars. They knew how much credibility their failures gave them.

I earn my living by writing a daily newspaper column. Each week I am aware that one column is going to be the worst column of the week. I don't set out to write it; I try my best every day. Still, every week, one column is inferior to the others, sometimes spectacularly so.

I have learned to cherish that column. A successful column usually means that I am treading on familiar ground, going with the tricks that work, preaching to the choir or dressing up popular sentiments in fancy words. Often in my inferior columns, I am trying to pull off something I've never done before, something I'm not even sure can be done.

My younger daughter is a trapeze artist. She spent three years putting together an act. She did it successfully for years with the Cirque du Soleil. There was no reason for her to change the act—but she did anyway. She said she was no longer learning anything new and she was bored; and if she was bored, there was no point in subjecting her body to all that stress. So she changed the act. She risked failure and profound public embarrassment in order to feed her soul. And if she can do that 15 feet in the air, we all should be able to do it.

My granddaughter is a perfectionist, probably too much of one. She will feel her failures, and I will want to comfort her. But I will also, I hope, remind her of what she learned, and how she can do whatever it is better next time. I probably won't tell her that failure is a good thing, because that's not a lesson you can learn when you're five. I hope I can tell her, though, that it's not the end of the world. Indeed, with luck, it is the beginning.

Jon Carroll started at the San Francisco Chronicle editing the crossword puzzle and writing TV listings. He has been a columnist for the paper since 1982. Carroll has also held editorial positions at Rolling Stone, Village Voice and other magazines.

Independently produced for NPR by Jay Allison and Dan Gediman with John Gregory and Viki Merrick. Photo by Terry Lorant.

dippin · 04-15-2009, 11:46 AM

I think this is not limited to schools, and not limited to youth.

It's large government with minimal taxes, 99 cent cheeseburgers, and cheap plasma tvs, even as illegal immigrants and the Chinese, the very people who make it possible, are scapegoated as the culprits for everything.

Plan9 · 04-15-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

I think this is not limited to schools, and not limited to youth.

It's large government with minimal taxes, 99 cent cheeseburgers, and cheap plasma tvs, even as illegal immigrants and the Chinese, the very people who make it possible, are scapegoated as the culprits for everything.

...and yet we wouldn't give it up for anything. Sacrifice is completely unheard of among my fellow middle class whitebread feel-bads.

Turns out guilt is just as fashionable as skinny jeans these days.

Strange Famous · 04-15-2009, 11:58 AM

I dont think this is just American

My old junior school (ages 7 - 11) cancelled sports day so people werent upset when they lost... but its bullshit. When I lost at something I didnt like it, so I tried harder to win next time.

Also the sixth form (ages 17-18) I went to didnt have any football (soccer) or rugby team cos of "health and safety" - but after one year a new headmistress took over and we allowed a football team (which I was captain of)

As for being praised by teachers, there were a couple of teachers who inspired me by challenging my views and challenging the idea that being vaguely intelligent is something to hide and be a bit ashamed about - I respect them a lot and I responded to them. To most teachers I couldnt really care if they praised me or criticised me cos I considered most of them as idiots.

Eweser · 04-15-2009, 12:28 PM

I have coached summer softball a few years (and again this year). The age range is 10-12 years old. It is very hard for me to motivate these girls. When my teammates and I were in...well, any grade in school, we were so different. I've tried praising them, but they are so used to hearing it it doesn't do any good. I've tried making them mad, but they don't get mad, they just cry. It is very frustrating. I have tried to tell myself that maybe my age group was just overly athletic/aggressive/motivated, but I don't think that's it. It's too wide-spread.

I have had discussions with other people that feel there shouldn't be winners and losers. I put it to them this way:
Do you want a person working with you who does not heed deadlines because they've never had them? A person who feels no need to do their best because they know/feel they are going to get the maximum salary anyway? Who is going to end up doing the work they don't feel they have to do?

Strange Famous · 04-15-2009, 12:35 PM

There is no point playing any sport if there is not a winner and a loser.

The_Jazz · 04-15-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

There is no point playing any sport if there is not a winner and a loser.

SF, if there is no winner or loser, then it's not a sport. Period.

Strange Famous · 04-15-2009, 12:47 PM

Agreed.

Lasereth · 04-15-2009, 01:01 PM

My little sister is getting that way. I helped her with her homework a couple of years ago when she was learning to read. I was helping her read her book and the sentence is like "Mary is good at soccer." She looked at me and said what's the first word? I said sound it out! M-a-ry. She got it. 'Mary is...' I asked, what does that word sound like? She said "good." So now she's already at 3/4 done through the sentence and she's like WHAT IS THE LAST WORD, NEXT PAGE!!!!!! I am like what the hell? Then she says Mary is good at stuff." She sees the S and just makes up a word to get through it and then asks what the word is. All she wants is me to read it to her and go on.

I FORCED her to sound out every word in the book, and guess what, she read the whole fucking book to me. My parents tell her the words if she messes up once. Fuck that.

inBOIL · 04-15-2009, 01:24 PM

I played soccer for years growing up and every year, without fail, we got trophies. Never won a championship. The first time it happened I was confused; then I learned that's just the Way Things Are. Those trophies are collecting dust in a box in a closet somewhere, or maybe I've already thrown them out. I don't know and I don't particularly care.

When people praise me for a job well done, I don't feel good. It kind of irritates me, especially when I know they're full of shit. I feel good when I actually accomplish something that wasn't guaranteed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Perhaps we can't handle the truth: some people just suck.

QFT

Tully Mars · 04-15-2009, 01:25 PM

The whole thing seems silly to me. You can have a winner without someone loosing. I remember when my daughter played JHS sports and they kept NO SCORE. None zip, zero. The first BB game a I went to I thought WTF!?! The really stupid thing is the kids knew the score, the parents knew the score... only the school officials seemed to not know which team won. The whole thing was just silly. But I went to every game. When she started HS they kept score, but they made sure every kid who tried out made the team and everyone on the team got to play. Which was fine until another school that didn't do that showed up and ran up the score while the "B" players were on the court/field. I remember playing sports in school. I remember not making teams. I think that's the main reason I stalk and kill people today. I mean I don't think it did anything but teach me to try harder on some areas and realize there's always going to be someone better at stuff then you. These seem like good lessons to learn early in life rather then later.

Now I think I'll go make a thread regarding my opinion of some of the parents that attend children's sporting events. No it's a nice day, why get my BP all out of whack. I'll go check out what passes for bikinis down on the beach these days and enjoy a cold beer.

uncle phil · 04-15-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

The whole thing seems silly to me. I remember not making teams. I think that's the main reason I stalk and kill people today.

Now I think I'll go make a thread regarding my opinion of some of the parents that attend children's sporting events. No it's a nice day, why get my BP all out of whack. I'll go check out what passes for bikinis down on the beach these days and enjoy a cold beer.

shine on, you crazy diamond...

Plan9 · 04-15-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I remember not making teams. I think that's the main reason I stalk and kill people today. I mean I don't think it did anything but teach me to try harder on some areas and realize there's always going to be someone better at stuff then you. These seem like good lessons to learn early in life rather then later.

Now I think I'll go make a thread regarding my opinion of some of the parents that attend children's sporting events. No it's a nice day, why get my BP all out of whack. I'll go check out what passes for bikinis down on the beach these days and enjoy a cold beer.

Everything zen.

uncle phil · 04-15-2009, 02:30 PM

cromp, i love you, man...

Plan9 · 04-15-2009, 02:40 PM

I feel the love, Uncle Phil. The kind of love you feel after filling a thousand sandbags.

uncle phil · 04-15-2009, 02:57 PM

my back still aches...

thanks for bringing up that memory...asshole... (j/k)

ASU2003 · 04-15-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

you know, when kids FIRST start junior sports and all that, I can see wanting to reward them even if they finish last. peewee football and stuff. But at some point, like 10 years old or so, its time to put them in reality and make them realize that there is no trophy for last place.

I agree that there needs to be a balance. With no praise growing up, you get the adults in the 80s who couldn't work hard enough or beat others enough to feel love that was missing from their parents in the 50s. Now, you see the opposite. And how many kids would give up instead of trying to get better?

Kids should be encouraged at first, even if they are bad. Tiger Woods didn't win any majors when he was 7, I shot a 165 the first time I played 18 holes around that age. But, with proper instruction and advice, while being supportive, it is the best way to handle it I believe.

Charlatan · 04-15-2009, 04:09 PM

I think I must have missed this trend as I was growing up and when raising my own kids. I have always been one to make sure that my son and daughter do their own thing and learn from mistakes.

That said, I also know what it's like to be on the receiving end of bullying. To be put down because you aren't good at sports, etc. The answer isn't to tie weights to the ankles of the other athletes so they perform to my level or even to encourage me to think I am as good as them. The answer is to find something else you are good at. Why shove a square peg in a round hole? To that end, I never pushed my son into sports in which he never had any interest. Instead, I encouraged him in his pursuit of art and other creative activities. As for keeping him healthy, I motivate his exercise in other ways... If he wants to keep his XBox he has to swim laps five nights a week. No swim? No games. I find it works wonders.

FuglyStick · 04-15-2009, 04:13 PM

I suppose some are, but that's very general to apply it to a generation. I can say without a doubt that my nephews, for instance, are not being "coddled." But when spoiled is the norm, will it matter?

fresnelly · 04-15-2009, 04:20 PM

I'd argue that while over-praising can lead to complacency, entitlement and a lack of lifeskills, there's not a direct causal relationship with the "spoiled little asshole" trait we're complaining about here. That comes more from the personality of the parents.

Jerks raise Jerks, no matter how coddling they are.

Charlatan · 04-15-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly

Jerks raise Jerks, no matter how coddling they are.

Indeed.

roachboy · 04-15-2009, 04:51 PM

i had a whole Thing i was cooking up, but then fresnelly said it in a sentence. so there we are.

dksuddeth · 04-15-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

DK, you are the LAST person that I ever thought would say something like that. No offense intended, but your response reeks of compromise (not that compromise is in any way a negative). You've got an arbitrary cut-off of ten. Why not eight? Or twelve? Or five? Or eighteen? It's a slippery slope, and I know how much you detest those, at least when the Constitution's involved.

Well, I picked 10 because that's about the age of the football league changes around here. I tried to use something familiar, but I guess it's only Texas that this works for. sorry.

KellyC · 04-15-2009, 09:34 PM

I've always thought the idea of adults constantly praising kids is stupid. Even worse is when they do it to each other. I remember a time in 8th grade gym class, we were playing baseball. A girl was up on bat, every time she swings and miss the girls on the side would say "good try, good try" and applaud her. In my head, I thought, "that was shit--it wasn't anywhere close to being good." I bumped into a few of them last year. Needless to say, they're not faring very well.

And, as always, George Carlin's words rings true.

YouTube - George Carlin - Self Esteem Movement

Lasereth · 04-16-2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly

jerks raise jerks, no matter how coddling they are.

ding ding ding ding

Poppinjay · 04-16-2009, 05:45 AM

I had a form of this type of behavior growing up. The areas I lived in dealt with it by just not offering any sports for those under 12.

12.

No pee wee or pop warner, because we were too little and could get hurt. So instead we would play football during recess WITHOUT pads or supervision.

I think there should sports for kids, and there should be a W/L column. Come in last, hey you get to keep your shirt.

Push-Pull · 04-16-2009, 05:58 AM

In response to the title of this thread, I have a nice little story.

I came into contact with a pair of young (teenage) people driving a very nice vehicle. At any rate, I was doing my job (law enforcement, I won't say what...) and this seemed suspicious considering the time of day and they didn't quite match the vehicle. Well all I got for my questions was a bunch of irate "don't you know who we are you don't have any authority over us and go screw yourself, I'm calling my mom" crap. After a very short time, I was finally able to determine that 1) it was the 14 year old's truck, 2) the 16 y.o. sister was driving because she had the driver's license, and 3) granddaddy and parents was very generous when it comes to contributing to these two kids assholery. These two had NO respect for my position. Unfortunately, I was limited as to what I was able to do, or I would have been happy to give them a large steaming dose of reality when it comes to authority and respect for officials. I can only hope that they tangle with a different officer with a larger range of options someday.

So in some cases, yes, American kids are turning into spoiled little assholes. And they are going to be VERY dissappointed someday.

Poppinjay · 04-16-2009, 07:20 AM

Wow, similar story, young assholes driving like shit in a Jag. A friend of mine chastised them at a stop light, they cursed her up and down.

Oops. Turns out she was the wife of the city attorney. After the police visited, it turned out they had been skipping school to joyride with the parent's car.

That was a long time ago. I think it was fresnelly who won the thread with jerks raise jerks. Way back in the 70's when I was finally old enough for little league, parents would show up to bitch at the coach for not playing their son, for abusing the cheap ass former milk jugs they filled with water (thanks, we all got sick), for just doing everything wrong, wrong, wrong.

Funny how most of those parents didn't show up for actual games.

04-15-2009, 10:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I concur. Rewarding mediocrity simply dilutes the accomplishment food chain. Classic example of warm 'n fuzzy Dr. Phil vs. the cliche themes of Fight Club. Why are we adjusting the life grading curve so much these days? Perhaps we can't handle the truth: some people just suck. ... I also agree that it ruins competition and rules. People that get medals for nothing as kids expect to get out of traffic tickets, expect to get a promotion at work after a year regardless of performance, etc. It erodes responsibility and achievement. ... I look at my military career as an example: I have 10 ribbons for two pointless deployments. I watched awards ceremonies where paper-pushing rear echelon fuckers got bronze stars. Some guys that did three tours in 'Nam have half of that. And they actually lived through shit. ... Harden the fuck up, America. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 04-15-2009 at 10:39 AM..

04-15-2009, 10:33 AM	#4 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	It's important to offer praise when it's appropriate--it helps kids to develop self-efficacy, the belief that they can try new things and be successful at them. But we ought to let kids know what success really is, and when they've fallen short of the mark. However, our benchmarks for success should be realistic and developmentally appropriate. I think that's one of the major issues--knowledge about child development should be more publicly available and more widespread, and parents and educators should have a better idea of what is developmentally appropriate for a child. One of the things I see now and again in my line of work are children who think it's okay to cheat. Their parents have allowed them to modify the rules of games so that they win, or parents haven't played fairly so that the child is always allowed to win. I am a stickler for following the rules in games--I think it's a slippery slope best avoided. Children ought to learn that rules are in place for a reason, and that they won't always win. Last spring I cared for a child who was playing teeball in a city league wherein they didn't keep score, but he always knew the score, and whether they had won or lost. What's the point in not keeping score? Children have to learn to deal with losing. We all fail on the path to success. I think it's really important that kids fail occasionally and learn to handle failure. I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't learned to get back up and dust myself off. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

04-15-2009, 10:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
completelyjaded Upright Location: in my head	heck yeah I see it manifesting as young adults with a sense of entitlement, you know the attitude of "you owe me"...I made a conscious choice NOT to have children and I don't owe them or anyone else a damn thing. I have no time for whiners or crybabies...life is too short. Life is tough, get on with it. When life's obstacles pop up in the road, I find a way to knock 'em down, or go around 'em.

04-15-2009, 10:52 AM	#8 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Ya give the dog the treat for doing the trick, not for sitting up and begging for the treat. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

04-15-2009, 10:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	you know, when kids FIRST start junior sports and all that, I can see wanting to reward them even if they finish last. peewee football and stuff. But at some point, like 10 years old or so, its time to put them in reality and make them realize that there is no trophy for last place. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

04-15-2009, 10:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	Hell yes. Though I take objection to "turning into." They've been that way for years. I don't know why people suddenly decided that kids are too fragile to have anything bad EVER happen to them, but that theory has done more damage to our society than I think we can reasonably calculate.

04-15-2009, 10:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I remember when I was in jr. high and high school.. some coaches would put the really shitty kids into games because either their parents complained or they thought they had to play everyone. Fuck that. I didn't want to sit the bench while brace-face jimmy lost the game for us. When I'm with my kids and they don't even try to do something I ask them to try to do it themselves. Usually they'll keep trying until they do it, when they do..I'll give them praise. I just want them to understand that they have to do things on their own sometimes as well as work for it. Every kid needs to be handled differently, but to just give them praise and rewards just so they don't get their feelings hurt is stupid.

04-15-2009, 11:10 AM	#11 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Failure is the best opportunity for learning. The most successful people in the world would not be so if it weren't for the string of failures in their past. History is full of success born out of failure. It is a bad precedent to remove (or trivialize, even) the experience of failure from children. As youths, this is the best time to experience failure, as the stakes are generally very low compared to the adult "real" world. I can't believe this trend continues. People often need to fail to find out how to get what they want. Success doesn't fall into your lap. Rewarding mediocrity reinforces mediocrity—not to mention a sense of entitlement. In university you get: "I need an A to get into law school. Will you bump my grade up?" "Uh, your paper was barely worth a B." "But I need to get into law school. I'm paying to be here. My parents help pay your salary." "Yeah, but I'm tenured. Enjoy your B." Yeah..."B" for brat. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 04-15-2009 at 11:13 AM..

04-15-2009, 11:46 AM	#14 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	I think this is not limited to schools, and not limited to youth. It's large government with minimal taxes, 99 cent cheeseburgers, and cheap plasma tvs, even as illegal immigrants and the Chinese, the very people who make it possible, are scapegoated as the culprits for everything.

04-15-2009, 11:58 AM	#16 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I dont think this is just American My old junior school (ages 7 - 11) cancelled sports day so people werent upset when they lost... but its bullshit. When I lost at something I didnt like it, so I tried harder to win next time. Also the sixth form (ages 17-18) I went to didnt have any football (soccer) or rugby team cos of "health and safety" - but after one year a new headmistress took over and we allowed a football team (which I was captain of) As for being praised by teachers, there were a couple of teachers who inspired me by challenging my views and challenging the idea that being vaguely intelligent is something to hide and be a bit ashamed about - I respect them a lot and I responded to them. To most teachers I couldnt really care if they praised me or criticised me cos I considered most of them as idiots. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-15-2009, 12:28 PM	#17 (permalink)
Eweser Psycho Location: O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A	I have coached summer softball a few years (and again this year). The age range is 10-12 years old. It is very hard for me to motivate these girls. When my teammates and I were in...well, any grade in school, we were so different. I've tried praising them, but they are so used to hearing it it doesn't do any good. I've tried making them mad, but they don't get mad, they just cry. It is very frustrating. I have tried to tell myself that maybe my age group was just overly athletic/aggressive/motivated, but I don't think that's it. It's too wide-spread. I have had discussions with other people that feel there shouldn't be winners and losers. I put it to them this way: Do you want a person working with you who does not heed deadlines because they've never had them? A person who feels no need to do their best because they know/feel they are going to get the maximum salary anyway? Who is going to end up doing the work they don't feel they have to do? __________________ "Whoever wrote this episode should die!"

04-15-2009, 12:35 PM	#18 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	There is no point playing any sport if there is not a winner and a loser. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-15-2009, 12:47 PM	#20 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Agreed. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-15-2009, 01:01 PM	#21 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	My little sister is getting that way. I helped her with her homework a couple of years ago when she was learning to read. I was helping her read her book and the sentence is like "Mary is good at soccer." She looked at me and said what's the first word? I said sound it out! M-a-ry. She got it. 'Mary is...' I asked, what does that word sound like? She said "good." So now she's already at 3/4 done through the sentence and she's like WHAT IS THE LAST WORD, NEXT PAGE!!!!!! I am like what the hell? Then she says Mary is good at stuff." She sees the S and just makes up a word to get through it and then asks what the word is. All she wants is me to read it to her and go on. I FORCED her to sound out every word in the book, and guess what, she read the whole fucking book to me. My parents tell her the words if she messes up once. Fuck that. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

04-15-2009, 01:25 PM	#23 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	The whole thing seems silly to me. You can have a winner without someone loosing. I remember when my daughter played JHS sports and they kept NO SCORE. None zip, zero. The first BB game a I went to I thought WTF!?! The really stupid thing is the kids knew the score, the parents knew the score... only the school officials seemed to not know which team won. The whole thing was just silly. But I went to every game. When she started HS they kept score, but they made sure every kid who tried out made the team and everyone on the team got to play. Which was fine until another school that didn't do that showed up and ran up the score while the "B" players were on the court/field. I remember playing sports in school. I remember not making teams. I think that's the main reason I stalk and kill people today. I mean I don't think it did anything but teach me to try harder on some areas and realize there's always going to be someone better at stuff then you. These seem like good lessons to learn early in life rather then later. Now I think I'll go make a thread regarding my opinion of some of the parents that attend children's sporting events. No it's a nice day, why get my BP all out of whack. I'll go check out what passes for bikinis down on the beach these days and enjoy a cold beer. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

04-15-2009, 02:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	cromp, i love you, man... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

04-15-2009, 02:40 PM	#27 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I feel the love, Uncle Phil. The kind of love you feel after filling a thousand sandbags. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

04-15-2009, 02:57 PM	#28 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	my back still aches... thanks for bringing up that memory...asshole... (j/k) __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

04-15-2009, 04:09 PM	#30 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I think I must have missed this trend as I was growing up and when raising my own kids. I have always been one to make sure that my son and daughter do their own thing and learn from mistakes. That said, I also know what it's like to be on the receiving end of bullying. To be put down because you aren't good at sports, etc. The answer isn't to tie weights to the ankles of the other athletes so they perform to my level or even to encourage me to think I am as good as them. The answer is to find something else you are good at. Why shove a square peg in a round hole? To that end, I never pushed my son into sports in which he never had any interest. Instead, I encouraged him in his pursuit of art and other creative activities. As for keeping him healthy, I motivate his exercise in other ways... If he wants to keep his XBox he has to swim laps five nights a week. No swim? No games. I find it works wonders. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-15-2009, 04:13 PM	#31 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	I suppose some are, but that's very general to apply it to a generation. I can say without a doubt that my nephews, for instance, are not being "coddled." But when spoiled is the norm, will it matter? __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

04-15-2009, 04:20 PM	#32 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	I'd argue that while over-praising can lead to complacency, entitlement and a lack of lifeskills, there's not a direct causal relationship with the "spoiled little asshole" trait we're complaining about here. That comes more from the personality of the parents. Jerks raise Jerks, no matter how coddling they are. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

04-15-2009, 04:51 PM	#34 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i had a whole Thing i was cooking up, but then fresnelly said it in a sentence. so there we are. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

04-16-2009, 05:45 AM	#38 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I had a form of this type of behavior growing up. The areas I lived in dealt with it by just not offering any sports for those under 12. 12. No pee wee or pop warner, because we were too little and could get hurt. So instead we would play football during recess WITHOUT pads or supervision. I think there should sports for kids, and there should be a W/L column. Come in last, hey you get to keep your shirt. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

04-16-2009, 05:58 AM	#39 (permalink)
Push-Pull I'll ask when I'm ready.... Location: Firmly in the middle....	In response to the title of this thread, I have a nice little story. I came into contact with a pair of young (teenage) people driving a very nice vehicle. At any rate, I was doing my job (law enforcement, I won't say what...) and this seemed suspicious considering the time of day and they didn't quite match the vehicle. Well all I got for my questions was a bunch of irate "don't you know who we are you don't have any authority over us and go screw yourself, I'm calling my mom" crap. After a very short time, I was finally able to determine that 1) it was the 14 year old's truck, 2) the 16 y.o. sister was driving because she had the driver's license, and 3) granddaddy and parents was very generous when it comes to contributing to these two kids assholery. These two had NO respect for my position. Unfortunately, I was limited as to what I was able to do, or I would have been happy to give them a large steaming dose of reality when it comes to authority and respect for officials. I can only hope that they tangle with a different officer with a larger range of options someday. So in some cases, yes, American kids are turning into spoiled little assholes. And they are going to be VERY dissappointed someday. __________________ "No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me- "Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown- DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

04-16-2009, 07:20 AM	#40 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Wow, similar story, young assholes driving like shit in a Jag. A friend of mine chastised them at a stop light, they cursed her up and down. Oops. Turns out she was the wife of the city attorney. After the police visited, it turned out they had been skipping school to joyride with the parent's car. That was a long time ago. I think it was fresnelly who won the thread with jerks raise jerks. Way back in the 70's when I was finally old enough for little league, parents would show up to bitch at the coach for not playing their son, for abusing the cheap ass former milk jugs they filled with water (thanks, we all got sick), for just doing everything wrong, wrong, wrong. Funny how most of those parents didn't show up for actual games. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet