Stare At The Sun

So, as I prepare to graduate with my masters degree in Criminal Justice, I find myself in an awkward position. What I really want to do is teach CJ at the college level, but I'm not sure if I want to get my PhD, mostly because I don't want to take all the stats classes that it would require.

Therefore, I know I need to get some teaching experience, and I was thinking about getting that experience by doing ESL. The pay seems decent, and the cultural experience/teaching experience would be a great thing to have.

I suppose my question becomes, has anyone done it, or know anyone that has? What are the things I should do, I should avoid, etc. Really I would just like to open up a dialogue about ESL, so please, bombard this thread with all the ESL info you want to!

dlish

even though i was born in australia, i was born and raised on a lebanese family, and only spoke arabic at home to my parents. its not that my parents didnt know how to speak english, it was that they knew i would pick up english easily, and arabic would become my second language.

they were right.

i went to school knowing only two words of english. literally..Miss and Toilet.

within 2 weeks of being in school i was reading full sentences, and could read like most of the kids. but because i was one of the few 'wogs' in the school, i was sent to ESL.

i spent a good 2 years in ESL feeling alienated from the rest of the class. we would be sent to ESL to play instruments. it was degrading. i never liked it, actually i loathed it. i remember hating going there because i knew that at the age of 7 i was a better speller than most of the people in my year, and would read almost anything i could get my hands on. i'd read the daily tabloid everyday when dad brought it home.

so being forced to go with the rest of the 'wogs' even though i was much better than the anglos was collective racism for me. i didnt have a word for it back then, but i knew exactly what it was.

ESL was traumatic for me. maybe it was a good thing for some, but ive been scarred by it ever since.

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KellyC

My experience in ESL class wasn't all that great either. The first semester of the first year in the US, I was in an all ESL class, which consisted of newly arrived immigrants just like myself, and the class was pretty large. I didn't know anything coming in, and knew a bunch of bunch of vocab coming out. The second semester my parents moved so I transferred. I was placed in an regular class but since I still couldn't speak English, the school arranged for me to meet with a special ed teach or something a few times a week so she'd teach me English. Well that didn't help at all. I found what really helped was when my teacher told me to read the stack of children's book she had in a box. So I just sat in the corner of the class room by myself and read and read and read. I was excluded from most class activities because my English wasn't good enough. This was back in 4th grade. By 5th grade my English still wasn't that good but good enough to be placed in a regular class and was treated just like any other kid. Then 6th grade came. I had 7 classes, the last class was music, I get to play the violin. My dad had rented a violin for me to play. But god damit, the fucking counselor deemed my English wasn't good enough so she took me out of the music class and put me in another ESL class. This was by far the most regrettable thing in my schooling years. I wasted a whole year in that class, learned less and did less than my regular class. And not only that I didn't get to learn to play the violin. A damn shame.

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dippin

My first job was teaching ESL in Brazil, back as a teen.

A few suggestions: avoid teaching in programs that are grammar/translation oriented. It is not only an outdated method, but much more time consuming, difficult and boring.

Now, as an aside, most colleges, even community colleges, won't pay much attention to the fact that you taught ESL unless you are applying for an ESL position. At best, it will be a nice bonus if you are evenly matched with someone else for a certain position. Without a PhD, you most likely would only get a tenure track job at community colleges or for profit colleges (and even then not in the better ones), or adjunct positions which nowadays are starting to resemble slave labor.

Fremen

Damn, too bad bundy isn't around any more.
He's from Australia, too, and taught ESL in Japan for a while, iirc.

/misses the bundy and a few old-schoolers
//got nuthin'

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guyy

That depends on the person.

I like language as language. To me, linguistic structures are interesting, and i enjoy the challenge of spitting out new phonemes. It's the attempts to sugar-coat language learning that make it tedious to me. Still, i wouldn't say "Don't teach in ESL schools because the teachers lack a solid base in linguistics & is a sort of cultural imperialism." I know some people might enjoy doing it, that ESL works for some kinds of students, & some kind of teachers in some kinds of situations. Will it work for you? You sort of have to try it to know.

As for questions about the practicality of teaching this vs. teaching that.

I've done a lot of language teaching (not just English). I think i've done so much of it that people don't really consider me a teacher of anything else -- even if my training is in fact in something else. So there's that to consider. On the other hand, what is the market like for teachers of criminal justice? What will it be like when you get your degree (which you will need.) I don't know.

CCs and tech schools can be better deals than uni teaching -- even compared to tenured people. You wouldn't get to teach your CJ895 Advanced Seminar in Criminological Methods & Theory, but you might make more money. (at least in Illinois and Wisconsin). Mind you, the people who run tech schools are wise to the fact that they pay better than unis, and are actively working to make CC/TechColl teachers lower paid. Yay! They do this mainly by turning jobs that you could live off into "part-time" positions that you can't live off. I'd say don't do criminal justice if you're going to need a PhD. You'd be better off getting an ESL certificate and teaching.

dippin

I think we are referring to different types of teaching methods. What I mean is: think of the average language class in high school during the 80s, or think of the old "learn it yourself" tapes that are based on 1 to 1 translation and rote memorization of rigid grammar rules.

Of course looking at structure and so on has its place, and I wouldn't recommend a place that is 100% immersion and communicative method without the basic structures.

Unfortunately, several programs are still heavily based on 1 to 1 translation and grammar memorization, which I would avoid if at all possible.

But we seem to agree that teaching ESL as a way to opening doors for a job teaching CJ doesn't work. Teaching ESL is a great way to open doors to teach ESL. Which, given how hard it has become for even published, experienced PhDs to find full time jobs, seems better than adjuncting with a masters. Part time employment teaching at universities and CCs nowadays is nothing short of abuse. No control over hours while usually getting paid around 2k per class you team, which means about a 4/4 teaching load just to make what a McDonalds employee makes. ESL at least has some independence and is not necessarily tied to the formal post-secondary institutions.

guyy

I don't know, Dippin, i think we're talking about the same thing.

Translation isn't really that bad to teach. You do a few translations, talk over the grammar and/or vocabulary, tell a few jokes and/or stories, have the students try a few problems on their own, talk about what they did, assign some things for them to do, and whattayaknow it's time to go. And teaching grammar can be interesting if you're at all interested in linguistics. What is a verb? What is an English verb? Can i play with this concept and still help the students pass their exams? I liked working within that problematic.

And really, the structures of authority are the same for ESL and grammar. In either case the students are assimilated into linguistic and/or practical/cultural norms.

Translation has the advantage of letting you stay in between.

Anyway, getting the certifications and degrees to teach in schools would seem to be a good idea. It's harder without them.

Randerolf

Here's where I'm coming from: I'm a recent business school graduate who loves to teach, but doesn't think that the US does enough for their teachers. Therefore, I ultimately want to become a corporate trainer, but am teaching oral English in Beijing in the face of one hell of a bad economy back home.

Perhaps, sharing my reasons for teaching here will help inform your own decision. I'm teaching overseas because:

• As a first-generation college grad, I worked and paid my own way through college. I never had the opportunity to visit other countries and truly experience other cultures.
• My business school eroded the quality of my English. I entered school having been published in a few magazines and newspapers, but left school disappointed how much my grammar, mechanics, spelling, and style have fallen. Thus, I wanted work on my English.
• China will play a major part in the world in the near future. I want to know how this story plays out.

One of my colleagues and I were just talking about the tooth and nail nature of academia back in the States. The level of competition is rough and tumble. From obtaining jobs to fellowships, everything seems to be a colosseum today.

Ultimately, if you don't want to worry about getting published and you are sour on the idea of a PhD, consider getting your masters and teaching at a community collage. Ain't no shame in that game especially if you want to teach people who might not have had many opportunities in life.

Often, an ESL job is what you make of it. If you have a good track record and keep up with the CJ literature, I don't see why it would hold you back. Know what you are getting into as far as the country and program are concerned; for example, if you teach in Japan, you might end up as a human tape recorder for your fellow teacher (some posts in the JET program). Some schools will have you teach a rigid curriculum, while others leave it all up to you.

I don't regret my decision a bit. There are a lot of people in ESL who couldn't cut it back home and waste the opportunity (booze, laziness, and women), but opportunity is what you make of it.

Scour the TFP. I talked to a lot of smart people, before I made my choices. There are a lot of people who are expats or know ESL teachers. Go toDave's ESL Cafe; every ESL teach loves Dave and his website that practically groans with information.

Contact schools directly and cut out the middleman/ recruiter. I got lucky, but there are many horror stories.

If you have further questions, feel free to ask away.