Foster children taken from grandparents over single spanking incident - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 09-24-2008, 04:58 AM

Quote:

FOUR children were removed from their grandparents' care and put into separate foster homes, allegedly because the grandmother smacked one of them on the bottom after the child tried to climb into a drain.

The children had lived on and off with their grandparents for six years while their mother battled drug addiction. The children were removed in December by the NSW Department of Community Services (DOCS) and have been living in foster homes, separated from each other.

Details of the case are included in a submission to the Wood inquiry into child welfare, kept secret by inquiry staff but obtained by The Australian.

The inquiry is investigating the system of child welfare in NSW, but intends to keep secret 90 per cent of the submissions it receives.

The Australian has been publishing some of the secret submissions with the permission of the authors.

A woman who is close to the grandparent case, who cannot be named because it would identify the children, said the four siblings, had been "in and out" of their grandparents' home for years.

"Those grandparents loved those kids," she said.

"They were really nice people. They weren't hitting the kids willy-nilly.

"What happened was, the children had been with their mum and it had gone badly wrong again.

"They were put with the grandparents and the idea was to try to make it more permanent."

Such permanent placements are often resisted by parents, because it means they lose not only their children but the Centrelink and other benefits associated with being full-time carers.

The woman said the grandmother "saw the littlest one heading down a drain pipe and grabbed him with one hand and smacked him.

"It was shock. It was sudden, like a moment of frustration, or fright, a startled reflex."

Soon after the incident, DOCS case workers visited the children at school to interview them, as part of the process of making the placement with the grandparents permanent.

"They said to the little one: do your grandparents ever hit you, or smack you? And of course he said: 'Yes, she smacked me last week.'

"He was just telling the truth and it spiralled from there."

The children were immediately removed from the grandparents' home "and because they couldn't find emergency carers to take all four of them, they were split up.

"Never mind the grandparents for a minute. It's very traumatic for small children. It's like they are being punished."

The grandparents appealed to the Administrative Decisions Tribunal and the case is now under review.

"The problem is, it takes time," the woman said. "The children were removed before Christmas, so it's been nine months, and nine months is a long time in anybody's life, and a long time in a child's life."

I don't think this even comes down to supporting or not supporting hitting children. A snap judgment like the grandmother made is a perfect example of how negative reinforcement to discourage bad behavior can help a child to stay out of danger until he's mentally developed enough to use judgment like an adult. I doubt that anyone faults the grandmother here, but if you do, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

What this seems like to me is a case of zero tolerance and inefficient bureaucracy coming together to hurt a family. Foster children certainly have to be protected from abusive surrogate parents, and at least in the US, abuses that become high-profile tend to reveal systematic failures of Family Services or Child Protective Services to take care of that. It seems that they're very careful to protect these kids in Australia, but why isn't there some sort of oversight that could allow a guardian to make an appointment with the department that handles this and explain to a judge or a social worker that it was a simple swat on the bottom rather than abuse. I would say it's emotionally abusive to take these young children away from a loving family for so long.

Is there a middle ground where we can be sure that kids are safe from abuse and safe from overprotection? It seems to me that there at least needs to be a review of what is asked -- going into detail when a suspicious answer is found -- and some sort of in-between step before children are taken from homes over what might be a misunderstanding. There has to be a balance between allowing abuse and child abuse hysteria (it's not the same as this, but along the same lines.)

Jozrael · 09-24-2008, 05:05 AM

Bajeez. Ridiculous.

Grandmother did nothing wrong. Corporal punishment isn't illegal AFAIK. Abuse is. Separation of the two can be difficult if its in a grey area, but this is so far into the white it's not even funny :\

jewels · 09-24-2008, 05:45 AM

This does sound like hysteria. I underwent severe corporal punishment as a child and went the other way with my kids. Taught respect without ever having to raise a hand to them.

But this situation is ludicrous. Why would someone interpret a casual "Yeah, she smacked me last week" into a situation where a child is endangered?

Isn't endangerment the line? I hardly see a smack as endangering a child's mental or physical well-being.

MSD · 09-24-2008, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael

Bajeez. Ridiculous.

Grandmother did nothing wrong. Corporal punishment isn't illegal AFAIK. Abuse is. Separation of the two can be difficult if its in a grey area, but this is so far into the white it's not even funny :

Is it definitely legal in Australia? A lot of us have a tendency to look at things from the perspective of US law. I don't think it should be illegal; spanking hurts, but it's not going to cause any lasting harm, even bruises, unless a parent is genuinely abusive. As far as I'm concerned, you can have a doctor look at the kid's ass the next day and conclude the parent is innocent if there aren't any marks and they're only doing it as discipline..

PDeverit · 05-19-2009, 08:15 PM

Although I think the child should NOT have been taken out of the home in the above case, I think its important to realize that child buttock-beating for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

I think the reason why television shows like Supernanny and Dr. Phil are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do .

There are several reasons why hitting kids isn't a good idea. Here are a few good reads:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor, M. D. and Adah Maurer, Ph. D.

Willravel · 05-19-2009, 08:33 PM

Me thinks there be more to this story.

ametc · 05-19-2009, 10:00 PM

Some children are just idiots and can't learn or realize, even for just a day, that what they may be doing is wrong without being spanked. They don't think like adults at all, and so their form of punishment should be different.

I'm not saying smack your kids around, but for christsake, if he is climbing down a friggin drain and simply yelling "You may fall in there!" is not working, go to him and grab him and smack his rear.

I'd rather have my kid cry for a few minutes than be stuck in a drain for hours.

Also, spanking a child under the age of 8 or 9 for situations like this is nothing like spanking a 14 or 15 year old. And some people say, "Well, I'd NEVER spank my cat!" Because a cat is a CAT and not a human child. The same as a child is a child and not an adolescent or adult.

Spanking them everyday may be harsh.. and whipping them is harsher.. but a few quick slaps to the rear in their lifetime isn't going to traumatize a child if you give them the love and care and support they need.

healer · 05-19-2009, 10:30 PM

I was on the receiving end of many a hiding in my youth, both at home and at school (back then teachers were allowed to physically discipline kids). I remember one time, I must have been 7 or 8. Me and a friend were running around in our neighbour's backyard trampling flowers and making a right mess of the place. After one or two ignored warnings, Joseph came out and gave us both a few whacks on the ass. I, like an idiot, ran home to tell my father, where I promptly received more of the same. The point of my story is, I believe I'm a better person today because of it. And it reinforces my belief that it takes a village to raise a child.

In response to the OP, I think the grandmother was perfectly within her rights to do what she did. Granted, she probably did it out of shock and fright, but it was by no means the wrong thing to do.

I can't imagine what kind of effect this will have on the kid who got spanked/smacked. Will he be afraid to tell the truth from now on? Will he think that the whole thing was his fault? Will his siblings resent him for what he did? All these things could've been avoided if some rational thinking had just been applied to the situation.

Shell · 05-19-2009, 11:30 PM

It all depends on the child. Some children are devastated if you just give them a disappointed look. Others, you can restrict them and take everything away from them but their arms and legs and nothing phases them. They need something more (but not abuse of course).

I remember my dad spanked me until I was about 8 yrs old...then one day he told me to go to my room and wait for him to come to give me the spanking. I took a dinnerplate with me and stuck it in my pants. He said he realized then that I was getting too old for spankings.

Lasereth · 05-20-2009, 05:37 AM

Oh give me a break. There is something going on behind the scenes in this story. It was probably published with the sensationalist "can't spank the kids" quirk to get it popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Me thinks there be more to this story.

ding ding ding ding ding

flat5 · 05-20-2009, 02:52 PM

There may be more or the fact that the mother had a drug problem was part of the reason they removed the kids from the family. They won't admit it though.

blahblah454 · 05-20-2009, 03:00 PM

Agreed there is probably more to this than meets the eye.

I agree with spanking your children every now and then. Not for everything mind you, but for some cases than yes it should be done.

Iliftrocks · 05-21-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shell

It all depends on the child. Some children are devastated if you just give them a disappointed look. Others, you can restrict them and take everything away from them but their arms and legs and nothing phases them. They need something more (but not abuse of course).

I remember my dad spanked me until I was about 8 yrs old...then one day he told me to go to my room and wait for him to come to give me the spanking. I took a dinnerplate with me and stuck it in my pants. He said he realized then that I was getting too old for spankings.

I used a shoe, like in The Little Rascals, heh

09-24-2008, 05:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	This does sound like hysteria. I underwent severe corporal punishment as a child and went the other way with my kids. Taught respect without ever having to raise a hand to them. But this situation is ludicrous. Why would someone interpret a casual "Yeah, she smacked me last week" into a situation where a child is endangered? Isn't endangerment the line? I hardly see a smack as endangering a child's mental or physical well-being. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

05-19-2009, 08:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
PDeverit Upright	Inherited Bad Habit Although I think the child should NOT have been taken out of the home in the above case, I think its important to realize that child buttock-beating for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit. Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit. I think the reason why television shows like Supernanny and Dr. Phil are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do . There are several reasons why hitting kids isn't a good idea. Here are a few good reads: Plain Talk About Spanking by Jordan Riak The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children by Tom Johnson NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say by Lesli Taylor, M. D. and Adah Maurer, Ph. D.

05-19-2009, 11:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
Shell Cheers Location: Eastcoast USA	It all depends on the child. Some children are devastated if you just give them a disappointed look. Others, you can restrict them and take everything away from them but their arms and legs and nothing phases them. They need something more (but not abuse of course). I remember my dad spanked me until I was about 8 yrs old...then one day he told me to go to my room and wait for him to come to give me the spanking. I took a dinnerplate with me and stuck it in my pants. He said he realized then that I was getting too old for spankings. __________________ ..."Say what you think. Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" ~ Dr. Seuss

09-24-2008, 05:05 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	Bajeez. Ridiculous. Grandmother did nothing wrong. Corporal punishment isn't illegal AFAIK. Abuse is. Separation of the two can be difficult if its in a grey area, but this is so far into the white it's not even funny :\

05-19-2009, 08:33 PM	#6 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Me thinks there be more to this story.

05-19-2009, 10:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
ametc Psycho	Some children are just idiots and can't learn or realize, even for just a day, that what they may be doing is wrong without being spanked. They don't think like adults at all, and so their form of punishment should be different. I'm not saying smack your kids around, but for christsake, if he is climbing down a friggin drain and simply yelling "You may fall in there!" is not working, go to him and grab him and smack his rear. I'd rather have my kid cry for a few minutes than be stuck in a drain for hours. Also, spanking a child under the age of 8 or 9 for situations like this is nothing like spanking a 14 or 15 year old. And some people say, "Well, I'd NEVER spank my cat!" Because a cat is a CAT and not a human child. The same as a child is a child and not an adolescent or adult. Spanking them everyday may be harsh.. and whipping them is harsher.. but a few quick slaps to the rear in their lifetime isn't going to traumatize a child if you give them the love and care and support they need.

05-20-2009, 02:52 PM	#11 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	There may be more or the fact that the mother had a drug problem was part of the reason they removed the kids from the family. They won't admit it though.

05-20-2009, 03:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	Agreed there is probably more to this than meets the eye. I agree with spanking your children every now and then. Not for everything mind you, but for some cases than yes it should be done.