kate jack

Parents of ill vegan girl may face police

Is it just that they didn't get the diet right, or is veganism inherently bad for growing youngsters?


I think that vegetarianism and veganism is a life choice that you should make when you're old enough to know the facts and do what you believe in. Children/babies are not old enough, they do not know the facts, and should be given a balanced diet incorporating ALL parts of the food triangle (or whatever it's called.)

I'm not a vegetarian though...

inBOIL

I think vegan is a red herring; they're child abusers, simple as that. They failed to provide proper nutrition and their child was harmed/killed. The reason they use to explain or excuse their behavior may be of use to someone who studies child abuse, but the fundamental cause is their lack of repect for their child's well-being, same as any other abuser.

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thespian86

Jesus christ you're a topic machine.

again I'm with inBOIL; child abuse is child abuse is child abuse, no matter what you stick in front of it.

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Charlatan

I am in the child abuse is child abuse camp as well. That said, I am not convinced anyone can live a vegan lifestyle and maintain a healthy diet.

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PonyPotato

So, the vegans who starved their infants to death: did they just withhold breastmilk and/or formula because it's a "no" in their diet? If so, what DID they feed the kid, if anything?

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snowy

I've had a few friends who were raised vegetarians, and later in life when they decided to start eating meat, they had a hard time with it because their bodies weren't used to digesting meat.

My SO is a vegetarian and raising our children veggie is something we talk about from time to time. Our children will not be vegetarians for the above reason (though I'm not saying they will be out and out carnivores either). Children need a balanced diet that includes protein from easily available sources--namely meat, fish, dairy products, and eggs. There are also essential micronutrients present in meat products that aren't available in other kinds of foods. Veganism eliminates these sources of protein and other nutrients from a child's diet. It's dangerous.

This is one of those things where adults can decide whether or not adopting a vegan diet and adhering to it is an acceptable risk to their system--children cannot make that decision, and a parent should not make it for them in this case, as clearly a vegan diet is not an acceptable risk for a child's system to take.

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robot_parade

One thing that's often overlooked is that a vegan diet is simply not natural for the human body. We cannot survive on a purely vegan diet. Period. There are no pure vegan cultures ever.

How do modern vegans survive, then? They get the vitamins they need from some fortified source, or they supplement with vitamins. That's fine - I have nothing against them choosing to do so, it's certainly their right to pursue that lifestyle, and there's nothing wrong with it. They should be careful and conscientious enough to make sure they get the nutrients they need, but that's their lookout, just like it's my lookout as an omnivore not to kill myself with junk food and fast food hamburgers. However, to turn a blind eye to the nutritional needs of a child based upon your own dietary choices is negligent. Criminally so.

Note that the above applies to vegan diets, not vegetarianism - it's possible to have a healthy vegetarian diet once you supplement with things like eggs, fish, and/or milk.

Good article on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/op...0A&oref=slogin

Vigilante

I agree with the child abuse idea as well. Additionally, we have canine teeth and chewing molars for a reason, whether they be shorter than related species or not. If we had herbivore teeth, or if someone was born with herbivore teeth (think flat grinding molars and front cutters, ie incisors) then I would say they are meant to be vegetarians, and even perhaps vegans. But as stated, we aren't designed for that style of living without serious additions to the diet in the form of vitamins etc.

My sister is a vegan, but that's not saying much because she's also crazy as a loon . I love her, but her style of living and zero compromise attitude drives me (and the rest of the family) nuts.

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CandleInTheDark

It is child abuse to put your lifestyle before your child's health.

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777

Now, now, let's not allow a few bad vegans (who don't know when it's right to break the rules) to ruin it for all vegankind. When it comes to decisions regarding a child's health and diet, it's best to go with your doctor's advice. Especially since this starts out as a baby, and (in my mind) should grow to be, at least, as tall as one of their parents.

robot_parade

Absolutely - veganism is a perfectly valid life choice - I wouldn't want to suggest that all vegans are child abusers, or anything like that.

Vegans who don't provide proper nutrition for their children are child abusers, however. Luckily, I think that's a very, very small percentage of people who let their ignorance and fanaticism take over. There is plenty of *other* child abuse going around, caused by non-vegan parents for any number of reasons, so I think that just making sure that vegans are properly informed by their medical provider about infant and childhood nutrition is enough.

speshul-k

I think raising children from birth as vegans is not right. As said here, it should be a life choice. Not something that the children and ultimately adults are going to have to deal with for the rest of their lives. Sometimes with such tragic circumstances.

Kaimi

Perhaps I am an idiot, well certainly I will admit to being ignorant on the subject of Veganism. Would it be considered against veganism to breast feed? I was pondering this and hoping someone could provide an answer. Breast milk would be of course the most perfect form of nutrition for an infant and is of course natural. I realize of course the nature of breast milk coming from a living being, but how could it be considered wrong?

CinnamonGirl

If you're going to go vegan, you need to study up.. a LOT.. on nutrition. These people obviously didn't, and that's where the problem lies.

The article goes on to say that the Scottish girl's condition resulted from a lack of Vitamin D.The body produces vitamin d when exposed to sunlight. Did they lock her in the closet? The article also lists dairy as a source of vitamin d, which is true...but the milk's been fortified. A glass of fortified orange juice would work just fine.

The problem wasn't a vegan diet... it was just plain bad parenting. Or even a pre-existing medical condition... the article is kind of sketchy on that.
-----Added 3/8/2008 at 08 : 36 : 31-----
Vegans who avoid animal products for moral reasons would do so to prevent animal cruelty...or at least, to limit their contribution to animalcruelty. So, no, breast milk would be fine. Vegans who do so for health reasons would most likely be aware of the health benefits of breast milk, so it wouldn't even be an issue.

So, yeah, breastfeeding is fine. More than fine, as you said, it's pretty much perfect for babies. Plenty of non-vegan women don't breastfeed, though, they opt for formula instead (although, I don't know what the source for that is, since I've never used it... I assume it's animal derived, though.)

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biznatch

I'm on the side that they should either know their nutrition, or give the child regular, not-necessarily vegan food. It's much harder to give the body what it needs when you cut out a large category of food.

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ColonelSpecial

I don't see how the death of a six week old child is anything other than child abuse. Even if the parents are vegan and are against breastfeeding, there is soy-based formula. Babies who are fed soy-based formula are fine because it is fortified. In order to starve a six week old child, you are giving it nothing to eat. So sad!

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genuinegirly

-----Added 4/8/2008 at 01 : 44 : 02-----
Or you are giving them bottles of water (or diluted formula). Water will flush out necessary nutrients from a newborn's system. Though water consumption can lead to seizures as well - which would hopefully tip the parents off long before malnutrition.

But that raises the question: Is a woman on a vegan diet capable of producing milk? It is difficult enough for a woman to produce milk when they are an omnivore. Even so, one must be concerned that the milk a vegan mother can produce might be grossly lacking in essential vitamins.

Here is a brief article from WebMD regarding the topic:

Every mother (and father) should provide for their children's nutrition as best as their faculties will allow. I believe the people mentioned in the article cited by the OP should be labeled as child abusers and not vegans. Though I will support the media's effort to convince people to think twice about their children's diet.


I'm a vegetarian who is planning on going pescatarian when pregnant and breastfeeding. This is mainly due to studies I have read and lectures I have attended by researchers who have studied the developmental benefits of Omega 3 fatty acids during pregnancy. Perhaps I will read studies between now and then that will convince me to go omnivore for my children's health. I have no aversion to cooking poultry and fish for my omnivore husband and plan on doing the same for our children. My choice to be Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarian is entirely my own. As a matter of principle, I do not impose it upon others - especially those dependent upon me for care.

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stevie667

Simple answer to that, there is no sunshine in Scotland, only rain and drunks.


It is a sad story, but so many people out in the world have no clue when it comes to nutrition, and when you try to impose a belief system on that lack of knowledge we end up with cases like this, or a holy war.

I have no problem if you want to be a vegetarian/vegan as an adult (as long as you don't try to feed me your food, blegh), but children need meat and meat derived nutriment.

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CinnamonGirl

I don't really want to argue that going vegan is the best life choice, because I'm definitely not the person to do that... and I've never had kids, so my nutritional research has been purely for adults, and more specifically, adult women.

It just irks me to come across articles like this... "omg,they didn't feed her meat, that's abuse!!!!!!!!!!!11," especially when there's some other underlying problem, or we just aren't told everything. We KNOW fast food isn't healthy, but the parents who feed their kids a steady diet of pizza, Happy Meals, and chicken nuggets aren't written up in articles denouncing them as child abusers...and I'm willing to bet they far outnumber vegan parents.

Does that mean you don't want to try my pumpkin spice cupcakes? `cause I have to say, they're pretty delicious

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snowy

Post the recipe in Cooking, please! I actually really enjoy vegan baked goods.

/threadjack

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stevie667

I'm pretty willing to try anything with the word cake in it.

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Kaimi

I appreciate your response on this, I had not given it any thought before this subject had come up. I recognize and have appreciation for those who adapt their lives to avoid being a part of the food chain that is supportive of animal cruelty. I simply do not have the will power to do so myself.

Figaro

Hi all--

I'm new here! I suppose I should have introduced myself elsewhere first, but I just wanted to chime in on this discussion because it's a very interesting subject to me.

These few cases about vegan parents not providing sufficient nutrition for their children have gotten a lot of press--probably an undeserved amount, in my opinion, considering the millions of other instances of severe child abuse that occur every day. It makes me wonder whether, if the media is truly so interested in veganism and those who choose this lifestyle, do we only hear about it when something like this happens?

I am not vegan but I have been very interested in veganism for a number of years (disclaimer--I'm not vegan because I prefer to be flexible with my diet and don't want to put labels on it--I might be eating 99.5% vegan but know that someday in the future I'll want pizza with cheese or whatever. I love eating vegan (if only I could feed my Ligurian herb stuffed ravioli with walnut sauce to the world!!) and find it a very easy and tasty way to eat, however I don't want to make myself feel like a failure should I sometime want something outside of this wide range of food) and have studied vegan nutrition extensively, including nutrition for pregnant vegans and vegan children. I am absolutely convinced that raising a vegan child is not only doable, but is often an excellent choice. Because vegan parents know that certain deficiencies are more likely to occur with a vegan diet than with an omnivorous one, they tend to pay much more attention to what their chilren eat, and from what I've seen, vegan children tend to consume a huge amount of the vitamins, minerals, and various protective phytonutrients that are all too often lacking in children's diets. Their fats tend to be unsaturated from foods flax oil (excellent source of omega 3's that are so important to brain development, by the way), nuts, avocados, etc., and of course plant foods don't contain cholesterol so we don't see vegan children developing atherosclorosis like so many other American children. Also, it's pretty difficult for a child raised on a vegan diet to become overweight and/or to develop type 2 diabetes, which are the problems that we should be focusing on.

It is way too easy to write off a vegan diet as unable to provide sufficient nutrition, but that is very far from the truth. Yes, vegans do need to supplement B-12, but I don't see anybody pointing a finger at everyone else needing to supplement iodine in salt or vitamin D in milk. Incidentally, B-12 is not inherent to animal products; it's produced by bacteria in the soil, which is consumed by animals and transported to us. If we weren't so obsessed with cleanliness, B-12 probably wouldn't be an issue.

Anyway...sorry for the novel. There's just a lot of misinformation out there. If anybody were truly interested in vegan nutrition (instead of just wanting to (no offense) ignorantly bash it), Becoming Vegan and The China Study are fascinating, well researched books on nutrition. And just some anecdotal evidence; my good friend, completely vegan for 15 years, had a baby last fall. He weighed over 8 pounds at birth, has remained right on track with weight gain, is bright, healthy...exactly the child that anybody would wish for. She has breast fed him all the way through (breastfeeding is the preferred way to go for every vegan I've ever talked to) and has had absolutely no trouble producing plenty of milk. This is the story for the 10 or so other vegans I know who have had children within the past few years. They've all chosen to raise their children vegan because they believe it's the best choice--yes, for moral reasons but primarily for health. If you think about it, children don't really ever have a say as to what they eat; they eat what their parents give them. Is it better for the kids to be eating lots of fruit, whole grains, beans, vegetables, and minimally processed fats or something out of a box or bag, pumped full of who knows what?

Baraka_Guru

There are thousands of people proving you wrong. Very wrong, actually.

This doesn't mean one cannot thrive as a vegan. It simply means cultures are heterogeneous when it comes to diet, especially modern ones. Most cultures don't eat much beef (or any), does this mean we should all stop?

It's surprisingly easy to get most of your nutrients without supplementation if you understand food and diet. The typical North American omnivore could likely use more supplementation than a typical vegan. The difference is that most vegans think about a lot about food consciously. Their diet is one of their core values. [Refer to Figaro's excellent post above.]

Agreed.

As hinted at above, pisco-lacto-ovo-vegetartian diets are not essential to your health.

This article is misleading, and generally not very good.

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snowy

That's because it's an op-ed piece, not an article. Big surprise.

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Baraka_Guru

Exactly. But it needed to be said.

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robot_parade

There are? How many of them don't use vitamin supplements (including things like fortified soy milk)? How many people have gone from birth to death without food from any animal sources or vitamin supplements?

Note that I said 'natural' - and to me, vitamin supplements don't count as natural.

Sure, you can thrive as a vegan, if you supplement your diet (B12 is the big one, IIRC). And that's fine. I was specifically arguing against those that claim that veganism is somehow more 'natural' than other dietary choices. I don't have any problem with people choosing veganism (except for those few like the ones described in the OP)

Yes, absolutely. Again, I wasn't trying to say veganism isn't a valid choice. But it is a conscious choice, not somehow inherently better (or worse, in most cases) than other choices.

Leto

I just saw the movie Contact (with Jodie Foster) so to me this thread was to be an elaboration on Vegans (people from Vega) abusing their children.

Never mind.


As for people taking on an extreme vegeterian diet, I have to stress that nutrient management is critical. I know from experience (my girlfriend-in-law, once removed) that if the proper diet isn't managed, the body is not able to fend off stress related illnesses very well. She is now on her 3rd round of walking pneumonia since March.

Baraka_Guru

I'm guessing there are few who do not use any sort of supplementation, but you'd be greatly challenged to find Western omnivores who don't supplement either. Supplements are found on varying levels in the food chain, as regulated by the government.

I know what you mean. But what is natural? It can be argued that eating meat isn't natural because we can have a tough time at doing it. But that's not to say we can't, or can't thrive on it. Many vegans eat a far more natural diet than most people because a large proportion of their diet consists of food as grown as opposed to refined or processed food. This is because much of the latter contains animal products.

Everyone supplements with B12. As mentioned earlier, B12 originates as a bacteria in soil. Animals eat this and, in turn, we eat them. We can get B12 from vegetables and grains, etc, but only if we don't wash them to a pristine condition. This is unpractical and undesirable because of pesticides and other concerns. In Canada and other nations, folic acid is now added to all flour. This is a supplement to curve the instances of birth defects. Our milk has added vitamin A, vitamin D, and calcium (yes, calcium!). Did you know you can get all of these from natural and plant sources? Why do consumers of dairy need these supplements? Probably because of poor dietary choices. Vegans don't need to worry so much about these because of the plant foods they eat, though soy milk supplementation is a bit of insurance. Note: Most vegans and non-vegans consume supplements extensively.

I agree. Though there is something to be said about the disparity between vegan and meat/dairy-heavy diets. Studies have shown that vegans have markedly lower instances of heart disease and certain cancers. This is why heavy meat and dairy consumers should work better to incorporate more non-meat and non-dairy foods into their diets. How many people do you know get the 6 to 10 servings of fruits and vegetables a day? How many do you know choose a variety of nuts and legumes when eating protein-rich foods (as opposed to meat)?

There is no one perfect diet. There is only balance and an understanding of nutrition and its effects. But I will say veganism is a much better choice than many of the eating habits we see in the West.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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