abaya

So I read this article in the NY Times this morning, about high-maintenance parents who send their kids "away" to camp, only to bombard the camp with phone calls every day (sometimes more than once a day) about asinine things, and basically freaking out about their child the entire time:

Dear Parents - Please Relax, It’s Just Camp - NYTimes.com

This kind of behavior pisses me off. I don't care how rich you are--if you are sending your kid to camp, you leave that kid at camp to have fun, make friends, sometimes go through shit, learn how to fend for him/herself, and grow as an individual--you don't stick your bloody nose in the kid's life every frickin' day, which to me defeats the entire purpose of the experience.

What do you all think? I used to think that only Asian immigrant parents were this overprotective (with my mother as a reference point), but clearly I was wrong--it's a disease that afflicts parents of all backgrounds, lol. I don't even know why the camp bothers appeasing them with a "Parent Liaison," though I guess it's easy enough to explain--happy parents = more money coming in. It just disappoints me.

When ktsp and I have kids, we'll be sending them to camps that BAN parents from this kind of behavior, if there are any left by that point. It's this kind of shit that contributed to my frustration with high school teaching--not the kids, but the effin' parents. Parents of 16-18 year old individuals, who had clearly been interfering in their childrens' lives all along, and would most likely continue this behavior well into their kids' college years... and who saw absolutely no problem with what they were doing. I mean, give me a break here. Is this America? How were these parents raised? Where did they get the idea that this was a healthy thing to be doing?

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The_Jazz

Helicopter parents. Whaddagonnado?

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abaya

I just don't understand what precipitated this phenomenon--and to even hear them mention 9/11 as an excuse for so-called helicoptering is a cop-out. Surely these parents were not raised in the same way? Or was it because they were raised in neglected homes, which made them want to pay TOO much attention to their kids, to not be like their own parents? Or is it because it's mostly the moms freaking out, and most of them have too much money and nothing else to do with their time than to over-involve themselves in their children's lives?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

It existed before 9/11. Precious little snowflakes need every possible advantage and might damage themselves, what with all the nature and all.

People think that they're special and that they're kids are special. They're not. They're unique, but so is everyone else.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

canuckguy

That is crazy! Camp is suppose to be a new experience by yourself! Mom and Dad need to take a chill pill and let junior have some fun.

The scary thing is when these kids get to be adults, good luck managing them in an office setting. I saw a 60 Minutes (tv show) about these helicopter parents who were still doing the same behaviour when the kids in college.

The one girl was having her mom call her every morning to make sure she got up for class. One child...sorry young adult had his mom call him after every class to follow up on what homework was assigned...etc.

Now I guess these parents are better than the ones who don't do fuck all but wow leave the kids alone!

shakran

It's not just camps. Parents of college students do the same thing. And the latest trend is for parents to call the kid's boss and make demands or check up on him. If my mom ever called my boss I'd shoot her. I don't understand the parents that think this is ok, or the kids who aren't embarrassed by mommy and daddy holding their hand until they're 45.

Cynthetiq

surface to air missles.

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fresnelly

In the past you just did what you're parents did or followed narrow community standards.

Parents today are bombarded and overloaded with information about what's best for raising their kids and some overreact by micro-managing their kids towards "success".

If this really is a trend and not just a media construction, it may have more to do with consumer entitlement than purely parental impulses.

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Daniel_

My daughter went to her first Cub camp last weekend - only one weekend, but the letter to kids parents specifically said that no phones or ipods or gameboys etc were allowed.

Aparently they had to do that after a couple of years ago several kids phoned home at bedtime and said that they were homesick.

I agree with Ab. The reason to send your kid away is to get them some self confidence and world smarts.

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abaya

When did that start? I mean, I know that the 1980s (which was my decade for elementary school) are famous for harping on self-esteem and making every child feel special--but these parents are a little bit older than that--I assume they were born in the 60s and 70s. Where did this snowflake shit come from, in that context? Interesting. I do think it's a trend, just from what I experienced teaching high school--hadn't thought of it in terms of consumer entitlement, though. Let me think on that one.
-----Added 27/7/2008 at 04 : 34 : 44-----
Nice. This gives me hope. I just don't get why EVERY camp isn't run this way... but yeah, I know. The money.
-----Added 27/7/2008 at 04 : 35 : 57-----
WHAT?! (Is there an article about this somewhere, so that I can read it and be outraged?!)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

I wrote something about it some time ago. Parents pulling aside the boss explaining how to deal with their child. My way? "You give them advice on how to work here, don't give it to me. They won't have a job here any longer if you interfere again...."

If I find the post again, I'll link it.

but in the interim here's 'Helicopter' parents hover when kids job hunt - USATODAY.com

and this one is a good response
No escape from 'helicopter parents'

but in regards to camps.... it's a shame that people feel such entitlements. I'd rather that they have strict rules as to the behavior and expectations of all parties. I'm sure there is enough market for those that are helicopters and those that let the kids fly by the seat of their pants.

here it is
-----Added 27/7/2008 at 04 : 58 : 36-----
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...-work-day.html

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Frosstbyte

If I were Mr. Kagan, I would've said, "Then come pick up your kid."

As someone who went to summer camp for about ten years as a kid, I have to say this is a mystifying situation. The entire purpose of summer camp, as various people have mentioned, is for both parents and kids to learn to function alone.

While I understand that parents are concerned about their kids, this really takes the entire situation to another level. I remember first wondering about it when I heard about how much camps had started to have to restrict activities due to parents becoming increasingly likely to sue, and how silly I thought that was.

As with many things, I find myself very glad that I went to camp before this was a reality, and sincerely hope there are camps out there that don't indulge these idiotic tendencies when I send my kids to camp.

Charlatan

We just sent my 13-year-old son to camp. His camp is about 5 hours north of Toronto. To get to Toronto he had to fly, by himself, for more than 24 hours (and boy were his arms tired). He has been gone for just over four weeks now and we heard from him once while he was at camp. Now that he's back from camp and staying with his grandparents, he's Skyped us once to tell us he had a great time at camp.

As an international camper, he is allowed to send an email or two while he's at camp. When he lived in Canada and went to the camp, the only contact that was allowed was mail and family day. Period.

Helicopter parents are idiots.

I see that my job as a parent is to raise my kid to be independent of me.

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ShaniFaye

I spent many summers at girl scout camp, granted it was the days before cell phones and email, but I could not imagine my parents being like that.

We mailed letters daily (we were required to write at least one during rest period every day) and I saw my parents once (I would be there two weeks and they would come the weekend inbetween) and I remember really wanted parents day to be over so I could get back to doing stuff with my friends lol

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Cynthetiq

I love this fading parental morality.....

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

fresnelly

In any case, we can all rest assured that there is still plenty of half-assed underparenting to counter balance the new half-assed overparenting.

/apologies to The Simpsons.

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LoganSnake

You're surprised at overprotective parents? They have always existed. It's just that with the cell phones, instant messaging, email, etc., they have even more control over how often they can monitor their kids.

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jorgelito

Wow, I am shocked that you would perpetuate this negative stereotype, and a really shaky one at best. Might as well use Jewish mothers or WASP mothers. Especially coming from an anthropologist. I have a lot of Asian friends and none of their parent as far as I can tell act overprotective. In fact, it was definitely my Jewish and Irish friends that had overprotective parents.

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abaya

Cyn, thanks for the links--still pretty damn unbelievable.
I grew up with a VERY overprotective parent. I'm not surprised that they exist. However, in my experience, it was always the immigrant parents (especially my Asian friends' parents) who wanted to shelter their children the most.

I never saw the born-and-bred American parents freaking out about their kids the way these parents seem to be doing--they were all about independence, which influenced me quite a bit to rebel against my mom and do my own thing throughout my life (to her frustration!). The parents of my 2nd-gen friends were always fretting about the underparenting done by their American counterparts--maybe it was just the area in which I grew up (no one was rich enough to afford being a helicopter parent), but I still see it as a surprising phenomenon, I guess.

Maybe this economic downturn will give those soccer moms something else to do with their time, hmm...
-----Added 27/7/2008 at 07 : 43 : 31-----
Well, first of all, I don't see it as negative ... just annoying, as a kid who wanted to be away from it. And yes, now I am starting to see that ALL kinds of mothers are overprotective, lol... hence my surprise at this article (Jewish and WASPs and anyone else who sends their kids to these types of camps).

But truly, when I was growing up, every single one of my Asian friends had notoriously overprotective parents. We were all jealous of our "American" friends' parents, because they didn't seem to care what their kids were doing, while we couldn't even sneak out of the house without fear of getting a wooden spoon on our asses. Yes, it was a small sample size based on snowball methods, but I didn't know any exceptions to it. (I should have made it clear that I was speaking anecdotally.)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jewels

My parents were (and still are) extremely overprotective of me, but they never allowed themselves to get close enough to really know what went on in my world. It never translated to controlling my world.

What I see is many parents coddling their kids, controlling their environment and pushing the choices they were unable to make themselves upon their kids. Tack on the fact that they believe that in order to remain close to their kids, they can't do or say anything to upset them. Hence, you've got tons of spoiled kids who won't do anything unpleasant and they can't wipe their collective asses without say-so from mom or dad.

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jorgelito

There's another perspective too to think about. How you view things now versus how you view them back then. As a child who wants freedom, of course you're gonna think you have it worse off. But from a grown up perspective, things probably look different. I think you will find parents, regardless of culture, will react naturally and biologically with regards to their children. I have odd hours so I frequently am out and about when the housewives are out the most. Their kid disappears for two seconds in the cereal aisle and all hell breaks loose. Women especially are prone to hysterics which makes sense. Protective hen and all that. I would NEVER try to come between a mother and her child (if I want to live that is ). "American born and bred" parents freak out all the time. Just visit a mall, school, anywhere really and you will see this on a constant basis.

It also depends on what type of Asian demographic because Asians are very diverse and heterogeneous. Since a large number of my Asian friends lived alone (we called them parachute kids, or gen 1.5 ) there was pretty much no parenting. Their parents worked back in Asia, and sent money to the US or Canada for the kids while they went to high school. Talk about freedom. I actually had a friend whose father put down one extra zero in the monthly check by accident so he bought a Porsche. But this is more of an LA, SF, NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Vancouver thing so maybe you never experienced it. There was a lot of partying and wild times I will tell you that. It's a fascinating look.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

Charlatan

I think there is a big difference between a helicopter parent and one that freaks out when their child goes missing in a busy shop.

I am a relatively laid back parent. I am a firm believer in developing my child's independence at young age. A few week's ago, I lost sight of my daughter in a busy mall (we were in a shop and I missed that she had left the store and wandered into the mall). I wasn't sure if she was hiding in the clothes racks, wandered off, or been taken. I didn't panic immediately but as the time lengthened from seconds into minutes, my heart and adrenaline were pumping much harder.

A lady could see I was looking for my daughter and mentioned that there was a little girl over by the escalators. And there she was, at the escalators. She was more scared than I was.

__________________
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ShaniFaye

Damn straight Im gonna panic if my child disappears at a store or mall....there is a reason "code adam" was instituted, and to try to compare that kind of instant fear with your kid being at camp isnt the same thing AT ALL

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

The_Jazz

How dare you try to take away one of the basic rights of The Internet! If we can't bitch about overparenting and we can't bitch about underparenting, how are we all going to feel morally superior to The Great Unwashed Masses?!

You, sir, need to take your complete rationality and far-sightedness to another thread.

/me takes off his helicopter mod hat.

Actually, I think that this is one of the best points in the thread. We see lots of examples of folks who absolutely fail as parents - some of us are children of failed parents. The folks in the thread possibly are failures as well, but that's not for the lack of trying.

Are these folks annoying? You bet your bippy. But at least they aren't flicking lit cigarettes at their kids instead.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

abaya

I'm well aware that adults and children have different perspectives on what is acceptable behavior. However, I don't think it's good under any circumstances to behave in an extreme manner with regards to children (whether under or over-protecting), unless their lives might be in danger or they are about to seriously harm themselves--but that usually wasn't the situation with my friends. We're talking about, for example, spending the night at someone else's house--not a new friend, either--which was always a very big deal, with a lot of phone calling and reassuring going on the whole time. I just don't think that this was totally necessary, given the safety of the situation, but perhaps others will disagree.

I do agree with Shani and Charlatan that freaking out over your child disappearing in a shop is a very different scenario, and yes, it is a universally distressing event--I would also say, regardless of gender or ethnic background. There is the very serious potential of a child getting harmed, or kidnapped, by being out of the parents' sight without supervision. This is not the same as knowingly sending a child to camp with very competent adults in charge at all times.
Yeah, you're right that I definitely never saw any of that, at least not in my generation or where I grew up. (Can I ask what year you graduated from HS, and where, just for some context?). It sounds quite fascinating as a cultural phenomenon, actually--especially the name "parachute kids" (in contrast with helicopter parents! ha.), though in migrant studies literature, the 1.5 generation is made up of children of immigrants who moved with their parents when they were older than 12 or 13 and tend to have a harder time fitting in to their new society.

Also strange, as it's usually parents who migrate away from Asia to work who send money back to their kids at home--most notably with Filipina moms working in the domestic and care sector abroad--but it sounds like you are describing an upper class of Asian parents, who seemed to have better-paying jobs in Asia, and wanted to have their kids to have a Western education, no? Which is another model entirely...

Anyway, fascinating discussion. The_Jazz, I don't think anyone's saying that it would be better to flick cigarettes at your kids rather than be an overbearing camp parent--obviously, there is a lesser evil there. However, these extremes still worry me... kids generally turn out just fine, and I believe they turn out even better, the less extreme the parenting styles are. Easier said than done, I know. But these are all things that I store up in my mind for when we have kids--and hopefully, I'll remember it when the time comes around.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The Faba

Hah!