Seaver

Great point, I was heading back to this thread to state that exactly.

As for saying people who drive fuel efficient cars are cheap whiskey drinkers, you're missing the point. I was drawing the comparison to how people will spend more money (or waste more depending on who you ask) for things that matter to them.

For (another) example. Should I get angered at someone for paying $X-thousand for their house when they could buy a smaller house which is cheaper to cool/heat? I could freaking care less, the house is more important to them then the investment/upkeep cost. There, you're not cheap whiskey drinkers.

As for the Crossover - Japanese vehicle discussion. I've driven 4 different new cars in the last 4 months (company vehicles). I drive probably 4-5 hours a day, I'm a territory manager and visit customers/sell/etc. Of the vehicles I've driven, the Ford Edge is my favorite. I thought it was ugly at first. It, however, drives amazingly smooth and gets 20 City - 25ish highway. Longevity I can't say, but don't write off the domestics.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

lotsofmagnets

i don´t understand people patting themselves on the back when they talk about fuel efficiency of 25mpg. my golf was getting 40mpg (6 l/100km) on the freeway and 30mpg (8 l/100km) in city running. the worst car i´ve ever owned in terms of fuel efficiency was a ´74 volvo 164TE which has a 3l straight six and manual overdrive box and the worst i´d get from that car was 21 mpg (11 l/100km) and on the freeway it would get 26mpg (9 l/100km) and this was from an 18 year old driver (1st car i drove with my license) who obviously wasn´t driving for efficiency.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Seaver

My buddy had a Golf, I had to recline fully or tilt my head to the side the entire time riding with him. He got REALLY good fuel efficiency because no one would ever ride with him.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

lotsofmagnets

no, you´ve just made the same point again

are you 8 foot tall?

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Baraka_Guru

A Geo Metro (remember those) got as high as 43/51 mpg. A modern Mini Cooper gets 25/32. A Smart Fortwo gets 62 mpg.... but this Geo gets 75!!!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

lotsofmagnets

it´s funny, because the problem of adding to mod-cons of electric everything and all the latest safety equipment has seen the weight of modern cars skyrocket and thus efficiency suffers.

hehe i´d feel a bit like a weirdo driving that thing around. wonder if it takes a 2nd/3rd passenger lying down.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Baraka_Guru

It's not the only problem. This is why I think hybrids are merely transitional:

Link

This is what made me think of the Geos in my earlier post.

Don't go hybrid--go used!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

lotsofmagnets

it´s true but unfortunately capitalism isn´t driven by the used car market. guess i´ve done my bit for the environment by always buying 2nd hand.

on a side note, my 164 proved itself a brilliant tow car even with only 120kW and 235Nm. i raised a few eyebrows with what i occasionally had attached to the back of that car.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

smoore

I think this was directed at me.

I'm NOT going to enter a game of interstate pinball with a grip of SUVs in a Golf. Safety features are nice but you can't countermand the laws of physics. A golf wouldn't hold everything we need to hold on occasion (the 100% of requirements rule). Compact cars are not as appointed as we would like.

Your old Golf will not get 40mpg climbing Lookout Mountain, Floyd Hill and the Central City Parkway. I think most compact car owners realize 30mpg or so. Mini Coopers making the same commute are managing almost 40mpg. When you commute in the mountains you basically are getting city mpg. To me, there is very little difference between 30mpg and 22.5mpg. Certainly not enough of a difference to justify driving a small, uncomfortable car.

I mean, we're getting the same kind of mileage that a Subaru Outback gets in the real world under our conditions. Excuse me if I pat myself on the back for doing research and coming up with a nice, big, all wheel drive car that will get my wife safely to and from work in the Front Range of the Rocky Mountains while consuming half the fuel of the typical modern SUV.

__________________
smoore

sapiens

Thanks for the link. I don't think that all hybrid owners are trendy, but I do know some who sold their functioning, relatively new cars to "save the environment". I'm guessing that they didn't consider the environmental impact of building a new car.

lotsofmagnets

no. if you look through the rest of this thread and heaps of other threads you´ll see plenty of people boasting about how their car gets 21mpg. if any car of mine was getting that i´d be looking underneath expecting to see petrol leaking out.

but the rest of the post is

and thanks to your attitude and that of many around you i have to deal with a road full of suvs in my golf and volvo. thank you.

so for the once in a while where the load capacity of an suv (which is matched by a normal wagon anyway) you will drive one around most of the time with 4 empty seats and lots of air in the cargo space. i hardly think the "100% of requirements" rule is logical, let alone sane.



and your point? will your suv get 40mpg going up that hill, thus nullifying that my golf will get 39.9? be serious! and as for "comfort," the golf has everything i need to get from a to b in comfort, including comfort itself. define "comfort" please.

good on you. i´m sure you made the best choice based on what you wanted.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Seaver

That kind of logic makes no sense. If we follow that rule of logic no one should drive cars because bicycles are less safe with a road full of cars.

Your reasoning only works if we are to have multiple cars. If I haul enough stuff to need a larger vehicle only 1/8th of the time, then the economic sense would be to have 1 larger vehicle, not 1 large/1 small. It makes no economic or logical sense to have a small car and a larger one so I can pick the best for the individual day. The difference in gas usage is minimal compared to the insurance/car statement/depreciation/etc of 2 cars.

If you're that happy with your Golf/Volvo why do you get so angry at SUVs?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

lotsofmagnets

extrapolating your logic: humans shouldn´t exists since we are bad for the planet. should i kill myself now? ps. i´d rather be hit by a car than an suv while riding my bike so oops, my logic still stands

or you could borrow someone´s car when you need that sort of capacity. like i´ve done. on several occasions.

if you actually read my posts in this thread you would know


edit: this thread is now going nowhere. i´m out.

ps apologies for the aggressive tone: i get worked up about this subject pretty easily.....

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Martian

Guys with classics often do this as well. Please don't abuse classic cars. It's not nice.

The whole SUV fad was an aberration. For most applications, there are vehicles better suited than SUV's. Minivans are better for people and small cargo applications, trucks are better for large cargo and towing, sports cars are better at going fast and compacts are better for mileage and maneuverability. The one thing SUV's excel at is the one thing they almost never get used for.

There's always going to be a market for SUV's but the years of them being a popular vehicle choice for applications they're suited to are hopefully behind us.

The Toyota Prius is a scam.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Cynthetiq

quasimondo, that's a great article that shows a bit more of the reasons that people do what they do.

I've been wanting to buy a sportscar for many years, and well there's a couple things that come with such ownership, maintenance and gas. It's part of the purchase and total cost of ownership. The same is said for gasoline for any vehicle.

This is their "Highway 17"

What some SUV haters seem to forget is that buying a new car has a premium... car payments. Owners get to choose, to spend the money on a new vehicle, or gas in the current one.

I'd love to buy the sportscar, but my car is paid in full and well I only drive <8,000 miles a month.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Martian

The thing that SUV owners seem to be conveniently forgetting is that it's not a boolean choice. It's not either SUV or Prius; there's a whole range of vehicles available to suit varying needs, from trucks to minivans to mid-size sedans. The big new thing is XUV's (aka crossovers), which are intended to provide the cargo and passenger capabilities of a full-size SUV without all the extra weight and power that very few people need.

If you need an SUV because of driving conditions, then go ahead and get one. If you don't need it for that specific reason, then there's almost certainly a better vehicle available. Sure you have the right to drive one if you want to pay for it. And I have the right to think that you're making a stupid choice.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

xepherys

You've never been to Mexico, have you? They take a mid-sized car and shove a family of 8 in it. And it's 20 years old. And there's a dog. And groceries. And a car seat. *shrug* You don't need a huge SUV, with DVD players behind each seat, raised 8" with no muffler. Sure, that's an extreme, but it's also primarily cultural. Go to Europe and you don't see shit on the roads like you do here. And they still have families. Often larger than what you see in the States.

It's just a matter of being reasonable. Sure, do whatever you want. Freedom and all. But, why be wasteful unnecessarily?

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My Homepage

Tully Mars

I bought a Ford F-150 4X4 Crew Cab right before moving down here. I wanted to buy a Toyota, even though it's nearly the same size and the MPG is basically the same. But Ford was giving a ton of rebates and cash back and Toyota wouldn't honor the warranty here in Mexico. I felt like I had to go with the Ford. Had to pay cash. Mexico won't let you bring a vehicle in, long term, if you don't own it out right. Well you can if your bank will sign a notorized letter stating they know you're bring it into the country. Not a conversation I wanted to have , nor needed to, have with my credit union.

I wanted something big enough to carry all the stuff I wanted to bring with me as well as two very large dogs. Now that I'm here it stays parked most days. Unless I'm doing a Costco run there's really no need for it. The gas mileage sucks (though gas here is under $3 a gallon), it's too damn big for the streets and parking spaces. Much easier to take the bus or walk.

I'd sell it if I could and buy a "smart car" type vehicle or even a VW Bug, Golf etc... My Ford's a POS. The seats started unraveling at about 10K, Not even the drivers seat the unused passenger seat. The CD players been replaced twice and still doesn't work. I had numerous issues with the engine. The latest "event" being a spark plug wire that fried out in the middle of the jungle. And the alignment has never been right, the steering wheel feels like it's vibrating in your hand and the tires wear much quicker on the front outside edge on the passenger side.

Again POS- I recommend anything over a new Ford.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

abaya

Man, that is ACTUALLY what happened to MY 1997 Golf here in Iceland!!! I love that car... it gets around 30 mpg around town, and more like 35 in highways, but sometime this spring I started noticing what looked like an oil slick coming from the passenger side of the car. It wasn't oil... the fuel filter was all rusted to hell (don'tcha love the Icelandic roads in winter?), and once that was replaced, she was running good as new.

I echo the call to buy used!! And drive 'em into the ground.

Well, that would be everyone I know. Lease turnovers? I've heard of those in Iceland (they loooooooove to buy new, throw 'em out the next year, buy new again), but in the US, not in my crowd apparently. Go figure.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Tully Mars

My original plan was to buy used. But Ford was giving so much cash back, new was cheaper. I called a couple people that were running ads and tried to get a newer used truck but they wanted more then the dealer for new. Seems Ford was having trouble getting rid of their inventory. Having owned this one for a while I now know why.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

smoore

Usually I just disregard people who chop posts up to nit-pick each point.

1) Reading is fundamental. I get more gas mileage in this CAR than the SUVs around us.
2) No way in hell your golf will get 40 in the mountains. Most people with that class of compact get 30 in the conditions we use our car.
3) 30 is a lot closer to 22.5 than 40 is to 21.

Without a vehicle fulfilling 100% of our requirements we would have to have more vehicles. No thank you.

Again, it's not an SUV, it's a car.

I define comfort as being comfortable. IE not jimmying my 6 foot 180lb frame into a subcompact car. Not sitting elbow to elbow with the front seat passenger. Being able to actually sit in the back for more than an hour. Those things are comfort.

Feel free to be smug all you like but not everyone can use a subcompact car. Don't forget, all of my <5 mile trips are made by bicycle unless I have to haul more than 30lb or so. My next cargo bike will change that.

__________________
smoore

Skutch

I used to think SUVs were obnoxious and ostentatious until I drove one, the grand cherokees I had are very roomy and comfortable compared to a car. It's not just pampered soccer moms who drive these things, I can say firsthand that they are genuinely pleasurable to drive and live with.

Baraka_Guru

Or, as is the case for a couple of the people in the article, three.

What? Two drivers and three vehicles?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

It's not like they have 3 SUVs. It seems also that they are practical about their usage, 10 times a year for the Suburban for vacations, hauling his flatbed trailer and when piling friends and relatives into the Suburban saves driving two cars.

Seems pretty reasonable if you can afford it.

If I could afford to have 3 vehicles. I would.

One for towing my boat and outdoor activity vehicles, which would get the least amount of use.

One sports car, second least amount of use.

One regular runabout, most use.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Seaver

Yeah... I have a truck. You don't know how annoying it is to have those people who brag constantly about their mileage to then turn right around and ask for your help when their car isn't so great.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

JumpinJesus

One of the questions I've always asked myself is: why are people so defensive about their cars?

Okay, I haven't always asked it, but I do whenever I read threads like this.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Shauk

I drive a Tiburon, it gets good mileage and lets me run over willravel




although I wish it was this

http://www.newtiburon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89297

Tully Mars

I think when it comes to SUV's it's about size. It's hard to drive them and stay in a lane designed for horse buggy, so many downtown streets are difficult. It's usually impossible to park and take one space. They suck up gas, so if the whole supply and demand thing is true they are contributing to rising fuel cost. As I said I have a F-150, not really an SUV- it's technically a truck. But with the canopy it's really not much different really. When I'm driving in urban areas I find myself in two lanes and when I park I almost always end up taking up two spaces. Though I do try to find an empty area of the lot as far from the store as possible. Otherwise I end up returning to my truck and find I can't get it, several posts here confirm my suspicion that that may not always be an accident on the part of other drivers. It's not like I think to myself "fuck everyone else I want two spaces" or "screw the people behind me, I'm a two lane kinda guy." No, I end up doing these things because it's too big to do anything else. People see these things, notice one guy driving and it pisses them off. Honestly I see their point. Then you have people giving crap to large vehicle drivers and it causes them to become defensive.

I saw a comedian once who asked "Will the owner of the Hummer please raise your hand so the rest of us can beat the crap out of you." There was lot of applause.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Seaver

Huh, I've driven a truck since I was 16... I've never taken more than 1 lane or parking space.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Derwood

you guys need to stop talking like every SUV on the road is an army-issue Hum-V. Yes, the GMC Yukon or Cadillac Escalade are huge automobiles. But CRV's, Rav-R's, etc. are no bigger than 4-door sedans. In fact, my CRV is shorter in length than my dad's 2-door Chrysler Sebring.

The vehicles that really take up too much room in parking lots are the jacked up, extended cab pickup trucks.

Tully Mars

I think a lot of that maybe where your at. I know in rural Oregon I never had a problem, also never had a problem prior to getting a four door crew cab. But in downtown Portland it was a bit of a problem, both parking and lane width. Down here it's a major problem most places. Merida is one of the oldest cities in North America, the streets simply were not designed for automobiles, yet alone a long truck. Drivings a pain but can be done. Buses do it. But parking is not easy.

I've had a truck most of my adult life too. I had a standard cab and an extended cab prior to this truck. They were both easier to park. This thing so long it's a problem. I have a back up alarm that tells me when I'm within 3, then 2 and finally a foot from something behind me. The turning radius is so large it's hard to pull in or out of spaces.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Leto

I just bought my toyata Rav4 (May of 2007) and while gas was relatively inexpensive back then (around 80 cents) It was one of my motivating factors. This vehicle has a 269 HP V6 in it that has better gas consumption than my VW Jetta. Size fits my family of 5 comfortably. It is solid, and the style is way ahead of anything that GM put/s out. I tried to look for a comparable GM, but there was nothing.

I can park this thing anywhere, due to its compact size, and I'm not complaining about hte cost of running it.

My sister works at the GM plant in Oshawa, and is a QA engineer on the Silverado line. Beautifully executed, top quality vehicles. But nobody is going to buy them.

ottopilot

The Jeep Cherokee (not grand) is a great true small SUV. We still use our 1997 Jeep to haul equipment for my business and pull our 23.5 ft. Caravelle Interceptor. Something this size as a hybrid with enough HP and torque is highly feasible. At 23 mpg, it's already a very reasonable and functional work vehicle.

On the other hand, boats are not fuel efficient and we've seen a great reduction of traffic on the waterways. We filled up the tank for $120 last weekend, drove the boat under 25 mph. (65 mph top-speed) for about a mile, anchored and stayed in one spot all day. weee! At least we have enough gas for a few more floats this summer. No cruising.



Boats and RV's are selling at low - low prices!

Willravel

Otto, can liberals ride on the boat? I promise not to say "Bush" once, at least in relation to politics.

Tully Mars

Nice boat.

/end thread jack.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ottopilot

If you have a Bush inflatable, we can load it up with fireworks, light it and set it afloat.

All are welcome as long as you bring a little gas money for the cause. We've got beer, tunes, sunscreen and assorted floaties. Leave politics in your car at the marina... be sure to crack the windows to prevent heat stroke.

Thanks!

lotsofmagnets

.....and back in

giving bush a viking funeral? that´s a new one

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?