J-Dubs

ASU2003

Just wait until someone makes GPS governors for cars. It would be the only way to enforce a 55mph law now.

But, without everyone driving a hybrid that would turn off the gas engine at low speeds in traffic, the fuel savings in the cities wouldn't be as great. But for the stretches between cities, it would reduce consumption. However, it is those long stretches where high speeds make trips shorter.

Cynthetiq

I'm a firm believer if they were truly about safety, income, and mileage they can set photocops on highway stretches and photo all the offenders of speed limits.

I understand they have right turn stop activated cameras now, I don't see why they don't use speed sensitive cameras.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

echo5delta

If I'm not mistaken, most government vehicles driven by military recruiters actually do have a similar governor system installed nowadays. FWIW.



Oddly enough, I'm still reading Cyn's OP and the entire issue at hand as speed limits vs. fuel economy.

Putting aside everything else dealing with greenhouse gases, who's generating local, state, or federal government revenue, scofflaws, ecology, or anything else for a moment, I'm focusing on that.

I know for a fact, and from experience, that my Jeep gets better fuel economy at speeds under 65. At 55, it's a significant improvement. If I were able, I would take my long Interstate trips at 55-60 mph just for that. It's worth it to me - I enjoy driving in my free time, and I plan plenty of extra time into road trips. There's no way I can drive more efficiently, though, because with the 65-70mph speed limits in this state, I'd be impeding traffic.

Given the way gas prices have continued rising for the past five or six years, I would be all for a 55 speed limit nationwide.

Whether it happens or not, or is even seriously considered, in the next five or ten years is moot. I would imagine that eventually speed limits will have to be reduced anyway, just due to population growth, urban sprawl, and other related issues. Can't really cite anything solid for that, it's just a hunch.

I might be full of shit, but that's where I feel it will end up over the long term.

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"Peace" is when nobody's shooting. A "Just Peace" is when we get what we want. - Bill Mauldin

QuasiMondo

Speed cameras are just another form of automated revenue generation.

Your jeep has the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick. As did most cars on the road when the 55 federal speed limit was enacted. Even a sleek car like the Lamborghini Countach had a drag coefficient of 0.42. Compare that to a Camry which has a drag coefficient of 0.28. Most cars on the road have a significantly improved aerodynamic efficiency. They don't have the drag that older cars needed to overcome.

Cars back then also did not have the transmission advantages we share today. The average automatic transmission back then was a three speed with no overdive. Nowadays, you have five- and six-speed transmissions with overdrive and locking torque converters.

Then there's the introduction of electronic fuel injection, variable camshafts, etc.

In short, the technological advances that have been engineered into today's cars means the reduction in fuel consumption is not enough to justify this mandatory enforcement.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Cynthetiq

that's what my point is... if they are serious about collecting revenue ala the red light cams, why not just put them across the highway and cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching....turn them on and off at various times and vavoom... income galore.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Psycho Dad

The outlawing of engines over a certain displacement isn't that good of an idea.

First. Do we really need the government outlawing things of this nature? Would these same people be ok with outlawing homes over a certain square footage or determining the number of children a family can have? I'd rather my government support the search for alternative energy sources that we should have been working on in the 70s instead of giving the government more power to abuse.

And the displacement of the engine has less to do with the amount of fuel it uses than you would think. Take a guess which gets better mileage. A 2008 Vette with a 6.2 liter, 400 and some hp V8 or my 1.3 liter 200ish hp RX8.

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pan6467

First off, those who grew up when the speed limit was 55 know there were more accidents than there are now. States worked hard to get 55 changed to where THE STATES want the speed limit.

Secondly, FUCK YOU PEOPLE that want to have the federal government take more power, FUCK YOU. People can drive the speed limit set by the state or if they want to pay the price, as fast as they want. I've driven I-10 from Phoenix to Tuscon....no fucking way would I drive that bullshit 55. For those of you wanting to drive 55, then drive 55 and shut the Hell up.

Sorry for the language and the anger, but it pisses me off more than just about anything when people decide what is best for everyone else and want the feds to change the laws of the states and assume more power over the people.

Plus, this isn't even a short term fix. You want gas efficiency, fucking take all the energy you expend on surrendering our rights and fight the car companies to build more efficient cars and put your money into companies that are working hard on finding alternative fuels..... don't fall into the trap that government must control the people.

FUCK YOU!!!!!!!! Spend the energy, time and effort on ways to truly HELP BENEFIT THE PEOPLE NOT ADD TO MORE FUCKING LAWS AND FEDERAL CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Whoa! Meltdown on I-10 or somewhere in OH!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Hmmmm that's ironic coming from a man who has as his avatar Uncle Sam saying stand up, dissent is patriotic.

Freedom to voice MY opinion man, that's all my post was.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

And in my opinion, you could have made the same points without saying FUCK YOU! repeatedly to other TFP members who dont share your views.

Particularly for someone who claims to be a "uniter"....how does that kind of emotional outburst lead to bringing people together?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Hain

Alternative energy is just a good idea to begin with. If the engine size plays as little to do with economy as you suggest, then I'll let someone else argue it.

Since living in Europe and seeing how crowded it is here, I could understand making laws that determine the size of one's house, else paying higher taxes. The population explosion E5D predicts isn't just a pipe-dream. It is already happening. We have disasters, and droughts, and rising food prices and starving kids. Maybe the government should limit the number of kids families are having. These observations are entirely off topic.


Since being here in Europe, I have come to love the public transportation system, and have used it extensively. I feel a good start in the States should be building a better- meaning cleaner and further reaching- public transportation system. From what I read in places like New York and Chicago, the subways are at a critical problem: the more people on the subway means less people are driving, which means people are buying less gasoline, which means the State collects less taxes on gas, which means the State has less money to spend towards subways.

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thingstodo

To hell with everyone else on this one! I'm with you, man, right by your side. This is America, not Big Brother land. We've already got enough Big Brother after 9/11 and the way Bush and his VP and friends used that to take away more in the name of terrosism and our safety.

And now, back to the original subject of this thread...

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Stangers have the best candy.

Psycho Dad

It isn't that engine size isn't a factor. It is that engine size isn't a 100% effective basis to use to give more government room for abuse. 1.3 liters is hardly anything compared to the 5.4 liters my SUV has. Yet my SUV doesn't use much more fuel than my RX8. What some people would suggest is outlawing the wrong vehicle.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Willravel

Oh, Pan's back.
Oh... that Pan's back.

You know part of me just wants to make sure me and my family and friends will be taken care of when we run out of oil. I've got a pretty decent garden, as does my mom and dad, and many friends. We've all discussed how to landscape local parks so that they can grow crops. We've discussed redirecting local water (streams and such) in order to aid in crop cultivation. We've discussed having long-term rations. I suspect that if we started running out tomorrow, I'd likely be okay. I know exactly where I'd go (Canada) and exactly what I'd do. Still, a shit-load of people would die.

What kind of person is willing to allow people to die from their own ignorance, though? Is that really the kind of person I want to be? Is it just about me taking care of me and fuck the rest of people, many of whom will starve to death?

These are the questions that make me who I am. I do care about other people, even strangers... even strangers that can't take care of themselves. I don't just want to survive myself, but I want everyone to. Or at least as many people as possible. Despite not believing in a higher, supernatural power, I wholeheartedly believe in the golden rule, and I think it applies here.

dc_dux

Putting the "FUCK YOUs" aside...On the issue of a mandatory 55 mph...I dont think its politically feasible.

IMO, a better approach is tougher CAFE standards (even tougher than those required by the 2007 Energy Act), particularly for SUVs still treated as trucks rather than passenger vehicles, and...

for the FTC to move more aggressively to use its new investigation and enforcement power under the same act.... ("to levy tough penalties against those who might seek to profit from supply manipulation")

I would also consider tax incentives for employers who promote (or subsidize) employee car pooling and/or using mass transit, where available. (My association subsidizes metro rail cards for employees).

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Spending time and energy to allow the federal government to take more control of our lives because YOU and people like you would rather turn to government to solve problems than find the solutions yourself sickens me.

You want to take care of others fine.... I do everyday, and I am damn good at it. But wanting government to do it is flat out wrong.

Take care of others and the planet by investing in companies that are working o alternative fuels..... work on getting car companies to develop better engines.

Wanting laws to make everyone go 55, TRULY WILL DO NOTHING TO SAVE GAS IN THE LONG RUN.... AND WILL DO VERY LITTLE SHORT TERM. Are you so truly uncaring, unwilling to see this, so willing to give the feds more control over us....... than to work on long term solutions that do not need federal government in our lives taking more control?

I feel sorry for you and others who believe the federal government is the only way we can ever solve anything. I feel sorry that you have such little faith in your brothers and sisters who would probably be more willing to listen and help you if you offered up demands for change and worked on getting alternative fuels going.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan....should I interpret that to mean you dont support last year's bi-partisan Energy Independence and Security Act that requires improved vehicle fuel efficiency (the first new CAFE standards in 30 yrs), increased production of biofuels, energy savings through improved standards for buildings and appliances, investment in alternative energy r&D....

Do you really think its achievable if its voluntary and "market" driven?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I'd be fine with this being a state decision. I realize Congress made the determination in the 70s, to much success, but that hardly means that they are the only governmental group who can make such a determination. If the state of California made such a determination, people would huff and gruff at first, but after they saw that it worked, and got use to the fact that all one has to do is leave a few minutes earlier, it'll be fine.
It does work. It's simple engineering. I've even tested it myself. It's how I got 30 mpg.

echo5delta

Making it a law won't fix anything. Getting people to drive a little slower and/or in the right type of vehicles WILL make a difference.

Which puts us back to the enforcement/incentive question. Lots of folks are just going to drive however fast they want, and they will deal with whatever those consequences are.

My question is what kind of *incentive* vice punishment could we have for people to drive slower/more efficiently?



Please don't ever get a job in government. You're too smart. It would be unholy evil incarnate for scofflaws.

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"Peace" is when nobody's shooting. A "Just Peace" is when we get what we want. - Bill Mauldin

pan6467

YES, if enough people demand it. I have no problem with the government requiring companies to work on bettering society, sometimes that is needed. Companies sometimes need government to regulate them, in fact pat of the problem we are in the condition we are in economically and societally is less regulation on what companies do and more laws against the people. The balance today favors big business and the rich and not the everyday people that make this country great.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

If I understand correctly what you believe...that we need a government that will regulate anti-consumer business practices more and intrude on personal activities less...

...then you should vote for Obama, who is far more likely to govern in the manner you desire than McCain, with his 100+ lobbyists in and associated with his campaign.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ASU2003

I'm all for regulating the companies, but I doubt GM would like a law that all cars have to be hybrids by 2011. The Chevron-Texaco large battery patents don't expire until 2015 or something to make anything but lead-acid economical. The government could set in and force Chevron to either do something with that patent or give it up... so I could buy a 144V NiMH battery pack instead of having to wire up my own.

Which brings me to the next point. How many Americans are going to spend the $4-7k minimum to convert a car to electric and stop using gas, there are a few of us that have or have come up with other modes of transportation like bikes that don't use gas? It isn't happening fast enough, and that is why the government may have to get involved. I don't like the police and I don't like driving 55, but it is better than ignoring the problem and continuing on like nothing is wrong. What happens when gas supplies are half what they are now. I lived in Phoenix in 2003 when the pipe was broken/shutdown and gas supply was cut in half. It was a mess, but people continued to drive everywhere (except for me it seemed, I rode my bike everywhere that month). There were long lines for the stations that did have gas, and prices were about what they are now.

So yeah, government should make the corporations produce better cars (as well as zero fuel cars, if I can convert one in my garage, they can make them), but if the problem doesn't get better, eventually people's consumption will have to be reduced. And I don't see it happening now at $4/gal. I doubt we will see it next year when it doubles to $8/gal.

Psycho Dad

Were that an option, I'd gladly do that to my '99 Expedition. It only has about 80,000 miles on it and this would likely renew much of the powertrain, extend the life of the vehicle and other positives I'm sure as well as allow me to keep it another 10 years.

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Willravel

It is an option, actually. Electric conversions have been around for well over 10 years. There's one in my neighborhood, actually.

smoore

$7k would likely get you 60mph max and 40-60 mile range. I think this because I'm currently researching a car to convert to EV. $4k gets a subcompact a 60+mph max and a 50-60 mile range. I'm nearly ready, now I'm trying to figure out which subcompact or compact car I can get my tools in. I can't imagine what that extra 200+lb does to the range but the boss would let me plug in and I could probably sneak it at most of the job sites. Lots of info if you google "ev kit".

I'm driving 55 in the Denver Metro since the beginning of the year and most every morning (0530) I get a finger, sometimes three. I mean, WTF? The roads I drive are 55 except for a 1.5 mile stretch from my exit to the 55 zone. Afternoon isn't so bad because the traffic is clogged and 55 is towards the top end of speed. Once I start getting passed I guess people just think I'm a throwback to the last jam.

Fuck 'em. I'm going to drive slow and no amount of hand gesture or horn honking is going to change that. I'm about ready to put a slow moving vehicle triangle on my Cherokee.

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smoore

QuasiMondo

Can you at least be kind enough to keep to the right and not block the people you've forced to slow down your shameless act of self-rightenousness?

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

smoore

You assume I'm not? Nice. I'm stuck to the white solid line.

Jeez. It's not a "shameless act of self-rightenousness" (sic), "It's the economy, stupid!" (to borrow from the far right)

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smoore

Willravel

You mean forced to obey the speed limit? Oh, the humanity!

Coolyo

lower speed limit = more speeders = more cops chasing them = more gas


that's just one way of looking at it.

Psycho Dad

I meant a practical option.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

ASU2003

I would think getting another car that is efficient or electric as a commuting car or for short trips to the store would be a practical option for most people in the next 5 years. It's not going to happen overnight (our power grid couldn't handle it), but we need to come up with a plan for how the nation can cut it's oil use by 50%.

But, I understand the economic side of it. It costs a lot currently to buy all the electric vehicle components compared to the amount of gas/petrol that you would save. I could save between 200 - 300 gallons per year, but that is only $800-$1200. It would take 6-8 years for it to be cost effective right now at the current price of gas.

Cynthetiq

Getting another vehicle doesn't work for me. It already costs me $325/month to park my car in NYC, that's rent on a whole apartment in some cities. If I could afford another parking space, I'd be buying a sports car which gets shitty gas mileage because I enjoy driving.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

thingstodo

I used to live in the Ft, Lauderdale area. There is a 25 mile or so section of interstate called I-595. The posted speed limit is 55 mph. I read when I lived there that they were thinking of raising the limit to at least 65 mph since the average speed was in excess of 75 mph.

Somehow I just don't think speed limits will do anything to reduce fuel consumption. If they did, enforcement of our current speed limits would be effective. In fact, there are many laws on teh books that aren't enforced with new laws coming every day on top of the ones not enforced. We are a nation of wanting to control other people yet we can't even use the controls we currently have effectively.

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Stangers have the best candy.

Willravel

More practically, you could sell your SUV and buy a small van or sedan/wagon, then do the conversion by sending it to a decent shop.

I've seen a Mazda 6 that gets charged overnight and that has a range of over 120 miles. It's got carbon fiber body panels, racing seats, etc., and a really torquey AC motor. You'd want 400+ volt nickel-metal hydride battery of a decent size.

percy

Couldn't agree more.

Another point also that some people haven't realized is that alot of r&d into enviro-green products (ie fuel efficient cars etc) is being funded by big oil. My concern is that with everyone going off the side of cliffs like herds of like buffalo regarding the green movement, without fully scrutinizing the end results, that the green movement could cohesively become a huge scam that does very little for the actually environment it is intended on saving.

As before, the social conditioning that all is green is good has been very successful in generating the masses to follow along. I am all for preserving the planet and doing my part, but am very concerned that the green movement will mirror exactly the power that big oil retains right now, and will become as corrupt all the while holding us ransom, like big oil, and have a control over us that that can't be broken, like big oil.

Leto

here here Percy! Has anybody else noticed that to disagree, even utilizing the scientific method, with the current 'green' movement (especially around climate change) is met with a hysteria akin to politcal McCarthyism?

Psycho Dad

I had a minivan but needed an SUV. I haul people, cargo and pull trailers.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Willravel

Trailers? How big? Electric cars are frighteningly torquey. They're a bit like diesels in that sense; they have much more torque than horsepower.

Cynthetiq

We've had this discussion before... from How are gas prices affecting you?
It doesn't matter what kind of torque, hauling you need... see you need to change. It's not acceptable that you have your needs and found a way to meet them.

I've labeled it "I need this..." and "other people need to change, not me..."

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.