Willravel

Tomorrow, March 29, 2008, between 8:00PM and 9:00PM, please turn off all of your lights and other electronic devices that you don't absolutely need as a part of International Earth Hour.

This is pretty important, in that it gives actual numbers to companies so that they know that the people of the planet are aware of the dangers of climate change and also alternative energies. We're ready for changes.

http://www11.earthhourus.org/

Feel free to join us.

ShaniFaye

I will make sure everything in my house is cut off when we leave for the Barry Manilow concert tomorrow nite

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

you're a FANilow!??!?!?!?!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Martian

It's not atypical for my computer and baseboard heaters to be the only active electrical devices in my apartment. I don't plan on changing these consumption habits for tomorrow. The baseboard heaters are necessary and I never shut off my computer. This is my one conceit, which I think is reasonable given that my overall consumption is very low; I tend to hover around 12 kWh per day for most of the year, although that may get up as high as 14 or 15 during the coldest winter months. This puts me at less than half the average US consumer and less than 1/3 the average Canadian, according to the numbers I've been able to dig up.

(Source)

Sustainability and long-term habit changes ftw. I don't even do it for the environment; I just don't like having a huge electricity bill.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

QuasiMondo

Call me a hater, but I see this being as ineffective as those 'gas out' boycotts that people are always trying.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Willravel

Last year the entire city of Sydney saw a drop off of 10% power consumption over the Earth Hour. That's 48,000 cars off the road.

Martian

Right. But 10% of power consumed during one hour isn't very much in the grand scheme of things. It is better than the aforementioned gas boycotts (which simply offset gasoline consumption, rather than reducing it) but not by much.

Wouldn't it be better to advocate long-term conservation strategies? Compact fluorescent light bulbs, energy efficient appliances and more efficient usage patterns are the key here. Earth Hour is about allowing people to feel like they're doing something without having to go through the inconvenience of actually making any long-term changes.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Baraka_Guru

Earth Hour is about this. It is for raising awareness.

Au contraire: Earth Hour Everyday

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

QuasiMondo

Between last year and this year, how much was power consumption reduced overall in the city of Sydney?

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Willravel

It's less dramatic. 90% of protesting is in the dramatic delivery, so as to attract the attention necessary for things to get done. Imagine if Atlanta, Chicago, Honalulu, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Denver, Miami, Portland, Phoenix, San Francisco, Quebec, Ontario, Toronto, BC, Alberta, Dubai, Manila, Copenhagen, Cardiff, and Dublin all saw a drop of 10% in energy consumption? All of those cities are involved in Earth Hour 2008, whereas last year it was only Sydney. Imagine if Sydney can offset the equivalent of 48,000 cars, that'd be nearly a million cars. In just one hour.

That's fucking dramatic.

I haven't the faintest idea.

Martian

If this is the case, it should be advertised as such. Getting people to make a change over the course of one hour on one day of the year is all well and good, but long-term change requires much stronger commitment (and, by extension, advocacy). There needs to be a very strong follow-up that, from where I'm sitting, just doesn't seem to be there.

EDIT for cross-posting:

I understand this, but at the same time it would appear that there was little to no follow-up on it. What should be happening is a bold statement in conjunction with high-visibility advocacy for long-term strategies. Earth Hour has the first part, but doesn't seem to have the follow-up down. Perhaps they should be highlighting the savings benefit? Again using myself as an example, I rarely pay more than $50 per month on my electric bill, and am able to achieve that because of my commitment to being energy efficient. I am writing this by the glow of my CRT. as I see no need to have lights on and am quite adept at navigating my apartment in the dark. All of my light bulbs are CF type, the largest of which is 15 watts. I rarely have the television on, and I don't leave any appliances on when I don't need them. All of these things are concessions that I've made not to save the world (the world does not need saving) but rather to avoid having to pay any more money than is absolutely necessary to the electric company. If it has the benefit of reducing emissions, then that's great.

Here in Canada a couple years back the Canadian government spearheaded something called the one tonne challenge, where they hired Rick Mercer to go on television and challenge Canadians to reduce their carbon footprint by one tonne over the next year. I remember laughing when I saw the ads - given my energy consumption habits (detailed above) and my driving habits (I refuse to drive anywhere that's less than a mile away and in nice weather will walk as far as two miles, which is the limit of my town) I don't think I could possibly reduce my emissions by one tonne without any action less dramatic than moving into the mountains and foregoing all modern conveniences. I do it all not for the environment but for other advantages (health benefits, savings, etc). I've often wondered why this isn't advertised more strongly. Then again, I may just be underestimating the laziness of the general population. Who knows?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Cynthetiq

Yeah, I don't think that people will really offset anything.

They'll use their laptops on batteries, their PSP, iPod, and other battery using items.

Again, I think it's a feelgood measure to make people think they are actually doing something because they did it once a year for one measely hour.

If you want to do something, change your lifestyle dramatically, not just for 1 hour out of 8,760.

I'm not turning anything off. In fact I will be with some orthodox people who will just be starting to use things since 8pm is when Shabbos is officially over.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Cynth, they already offset almost 50 thousand cars. 10%.

Baraka_Guru

Seriously, this isn't the shift, this is the actionable publicity. It raises awareness. Far more people are participating in this than they did last year, which means the profile of this issue is going to skyrocket.

You want a change in habits or policies? Then raise the public profile of an issue. This is publicity and public relations 101.

If you want my opinion, we're going to hit a crisis before real change will happen. By then, we'll see a huge culture shock when people realize how they live and work will never be the same.

But I also like to think we should do what we can to lessen the blow.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

yeah, Vote or Die raised awareness for voting... sure when the stars were found out they didn't bother to vote the hypocrisy was apparent.

I think the same for the carbon footprint, and again don't have much hope for this movement as well.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

Absolutely.

Look back at the first Earth Day in 1970. It was a simply a consciousness raising event. It took several more years for the first meaningful environmental legislation.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Baraka_Guru

But I don't think P. Diddy is behind this one. I don't even think he's Aussie.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dc_dux

We are already seeing results of the growing interest in energy conservation.

Last year's Energy Independence and Security Act requires significant greater efficiency in a wide range of commercial/residential appliances (including light bulbs), commercial building standards and vehicle fuel efficiency.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

Sorry, I've been complaining about the CAFE standards being low since the mid-80s and again as small truck (SUV) sales soared in the 90s to take over 20 years to make a difference is appalling. Then there is the MTBE/Ethanol stuff which is totally derailing the thread.

I just don't have much hope that it will make such an impact.

Awareness, sure they're more aware. I've done what I can. Now what?

It reminds me of scrimping and saving in my company. I can scrimp and save pennies and dimes when budgeting, but when SVPs above me decide they are blowing the wad for their department because they don't feel they should "suffer" like everyone else, well I just don't see the point to even bother.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Humbug much?

Cynthetiq

I save and conserve and people fly in private jets and live in huge McMansions. Yeah, I'm jaded.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

I am more impressed with the appliance standards rather than the CAFE standards.....particularly, lightbulbs:

The biggest energy-saver among the standards in the bill are those for common light bulbs (or “lamps” as they are called in the lighting trade), requiring them to use about 25-30% less energy than today’s most common incandescent bulbs by 2012-2014, and at least 60% less energy by 2020.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

See and I'm pissed about that. I like the glow of the incandescent bulb. It provides more lighting atmosphere for me than any of the CF bulbs. I haven't found a CF bulb that gives the same warm glow of an incandescent.

To outright ban them is deplorable as far as a matter of choice. Make it expensive via tax and allow me to buy it just like those gas guzzler taxes are. People can buy cars and trucks that get shit gas mileage. Why won't I be able to buy a bulb that I like the way it makes the interior of my home look?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

The reason for the delay of the standards until 2012-14 is to provide the opportunity for commercial development of comparable but more efficient lightbulbs.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

smoore

This is not a bicycle:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=124705

Earth Hour is also not a bicycle, yet:

Hate to start trouble my first day and all but: Uhhhh, what? Preach radically changing lifestyles and lust over a BMW? Something doesn't quite click. If you need links I can show you really expensive bicycles to covet.

Offsetting one vehicle for another saves little, as I'm quickly learning trying to get out of my cherished '90 Jeep Cherokee into something that will carry my butt and all of my tools through snow reliably (for under $8k, please). Surprisingly, the F150 4x4 would fit the bill circa 2001. Bigger vehicle, smaller footprint. Anything Toyota is out of my price range to increase efficiency. Strange days indeed.

I support Earth Hour and our family will be participating. We will wander around our house with the kids and *think* about what can be turned off or unplugged. Maybe it'll even get my kids to think about phantom loads a bit more.

GO EARTH HOUR!

Cynthetiq, I don't want to pick on you but I saw the major opponent of this protest/advocacy/awakening in this particular thread lust after a brand new internal combustion powered automobile. That tripped my BS meter.

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smoore

Martian

This is not a valid argument. Opposition of Earth Hour and desiring a nice car are not mutually exclusive. For that matter, advocating energy efficiency and moderate usage and desiring a nice car are not mutually exclusive. Cynthetiq's preference for a BMW does not take away from what he's saying in any way, shape or form.

ad hominem, ergo irritus.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ustwo

I was thinking of curling up with a good book I've been meaning to read...



Someone bought that for me

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smoore

It's not an argument, I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy. How someone can blast an advocacy action for making "no difference" while desiring a car that embodies the entire "drive to work, work to drive" problem baffles me.

I see no ad hominem in my post but your strawman does intrigue me. Please expound.

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smoore

Martian

I would suggest that you need to brush up on logical fallacies.

A straw man is an attempt to distort or exaggerate an argument with the intention of disproving it. An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person, rather than the argument the person makes. Cynthetiq's argument was that advocating change for only one hour of the year has no significant long-term impact on carbon emissions. Your rebuttal, whether it was explicit or implied, was that Cynthetiq's argument is invalid because he likes the BMW 1 series. You did not address his points, but rather attempted to use his character as a means to judge the validity of his assertions. This is by definition an ad hominem attack and therefore invalid (ad hominem, ergo irritus, as we pretentious Latin readers say). I pointed this out but did not exaggerate your arguments and therefore did not use any straw man.

I don't see how opposing Earth Hour and wanting a nice car are mutually exclusive. If anything they're internally consistent, but even if Cynthetiq supported Earth Hour his preference in vehicles would not be relevant as the two address totally different issues. Earth Hour is about reducing wasteful use of electricity, and does not address vehicular emissions. One could support methods to reduce energy inefficiency in the home without supporting methods to eliminate vehicular emissions without any logical conflict.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

smoore

Obviously you are a student of debate.

I stand corrected. I always thought a straw man was setting up an argument from the opponents view in order to tear it down. I also assumed an ad hominem was a direct attack against the character of the opposition.

How would I logically say that it is hypocritical to deride a protest against excessive energy use and wanting to posses a luxury car?

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smoore

Martian

You wouldn't, because it's not hypocritical. There is no logical inconsistency inherent in opposing Earth Hour and wanting a luxury car. For one, opposing Earth Hour implies (but does not necessarily confirm) an indifference towards carbon emissions, which would be logically consistent with indifference towards a car's fuel efficiency or emissions output. Further, even if we assume that Cynthetiq (as our example case here) does support increasing energy efficiency in the home and opposes Earth Day due to it's perceived ineffectiveness in furthering this cause, we still don't have a logical inconsistency. One may support increased energy efficiency for a variety of reasons, such as economic concerns, opposition to a specific type of power generation (nuclear power, for example) or even out of concern regarding a power shortage. Carbon emissions are one reason to support a reduction in consumer electricity use, but they're not the only one. And finally, a vehicle may be classified as a luxury car and still be fuel efficient; in fact, the BMW 1 series includes a suite of features and design specifications collectively called EfficientDynamics, which are designed specifically to increase fuel efficiency and reduce emissions. Therefore, one may desire a vehicle that's classed as a luxury car and still be committed to 'green' policies.

Your problem here is that you're confusing consumerism with environmentalism; these are two unrelated issues, although they often go together politically and philosophically. Had Cynthetiq made an anti-consumer statement here and expressed a desire to own an expensive vehicle elsewhere, he would be a hypocrite. As it is, there is no inconsistency between what he's said here and what he's said elsewhere that I've seen.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

powerclown

Also, don't forget that the BMW 118d was named 2008 World Green Car. A superb - and luxurious - car to be sure.

highthief

When Al Gore moves into a smaller house and David Suzuki stops impregnating women and putting all those extra energy sucking mouths into the world population I'll turn off my lights for an hour.

Hypocrites.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

dc_dux

Still reading fairy tales....at your age?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

Welcome to the TFP smoore!

Actually, you should spend more time reading and getting to know me. I've never once preached for anyone to radically change their lifestyle. What works for me is what works for me. I'd never impose my way of life upon someone else. I prefer to live by example. I'm not about radical changes, but if you are interested in the change then do the change. As Mr. Gandhi stated, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

I made the lifestyle statement because if you really are about saving the environment and such, 1 hour does something. I don't see this much different than saving $1 day and then when you go out another day splurging $10 when your normal averages are $8. People rationalize things all the time, "I jogged yesterday so I can have an ice cream" mentality is what I'm getting at or even "I did this X thing, so I can treat myself/deserve Y thing." In doing this rationalization, they don't help anything.

You have to have an SUV to haul you and your tools. I can assume from that, you've got a career/job living location that REQUIRES you to drive. The idea "drive to work, work to drive" doesn't apply for me.

I may covet a BMW, but look further at more of my posts, and you'd see that I live in a major city. I do own a car because I can afford to own one. I have many friends who don't even have a driver's license or even know how to drive. I didn't have a driver's license or a car from 1995 until Dec. 2000. I take public transportation EVERYDAY. I can CHOOSE to walk to work EVERYDAY if I want to. If everyone in NYC would bike to work, you'd have plenty of bike storage problems. Not every employer has a bike room. Locking up your bike in NYC on the street? You may just return to see something like this:


I drive less than 8,000 miles a year. I have the odometer and insurance policy to prove it. My 2001 Plymouth Neon has roughly 36,000 miles on it. I drive for complete 100% PLEASURE. My car is 100% a luxury item. It is paid off yet still costs me $325/mo to park the friggin' thing. It is also parked about 4 blocks from my apartment so I have to walk to retrieve it, sucks in the rainy and snowy days. Parking on the street while free (and risk to break ins) is a pain in the ass due to having to move the car every other day due to alternate side parking rules. If I miss a day it is a $150 parking ticket. While I could have easily bought something that matched my fellow colleagues (income/status) I did not as I am a practical man. Car XYZ still gets you from point A to point B just as fast and just as furious as Car ABC here in the NYC area. Car XYZ will still only get driven less than 8,000 miles a year. My car gets driven approximately 1-2 times a month as a means to go places that buses and railroads do not go easily or on a time schedule acceptable to me or the wife.

So even if I decided to get any SUV I'd still be polluting less vehicular emissions than a you and a majority of the United States.

When I renovated my 800 sq foot apartment in NYC I redid all of the electrical in my unit (building is over 50 years old) to accommodate and protect all the electrical items I would be using, home theater system and a number of computers systems (desktops/laptops/routers/switches.) If you have been to Europe, you may have seen the guest card key switches that you insert when you arrive and remove when you leave. This switch turns off almost all the electric outlets within the room except for the alarm clock. It's a pain when trying to recharge anything while you are out like spare AAA batteries or laptop. I considered installing something like this in our home not because I'm concerned about saving the environment, but because I don't like paying a lot for our electric bill. I did not install it because the costs would outweigh the benefits. The apartment has less than 15 outlets of which 7 are connected to 24/7/365 items. Turning my energy saver A/C off for the day while at work takes more electricity to cool when I get home then it does to cool it in the morning and keep it cool during the day. (I know this because I compared electric bills with both scenarios.) What made more sense was to just make sure I turn off the all the lights when I was leaving each room. A habit that I have had since I was a kid but from time to time I don't because I forget.

Now to connect this back to the OP, highthief expounds more on what I stated about saving money and someone else squandering it. I walk to work and live in a right sized home for 2 people. And there are people like you who have to drive to work, grocery, drop off the kids to school, soccer, scouts... negating all that "saving" and sacrificing I've done.

I'm about to go out for breakfast for some bacon, eggs, and toast. I'm walking there and back, on the way home I can stop by the grocery store or CVS and pick up some items if needed. I could easily choose to drive to IHOP because I love pancakes and hashbrowns. I only do that when I've decided to take the car out for the day.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

Maybe follow up with this?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

I have a sad feeling you don't understand the irony of your post.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Anyone notice that google went dark today?

"We've turned the lights out. Now it's your turn"

Not to save energy, but a very cool way to raise awareness.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

no but it was discussed sometime last year or even the year before:

doe.gov
and Blackle.com who does it EVERY day. This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not just COOL because you did it one day to bring awareness, it's cool because you do it every day.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

I wonder if people would by those stupid magnetic fake ribbon things people put on their cars with 'Earth Hour' in the usual cause spot.

I'd love to see one on an SUV.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.