Tully Mars

Now come one, be honest, it is a American made car, right?

I love these guys...

"I support the troops!"... "Send my kid, are you kidding?"

"I support the war, anyone who doesn't is un-American and should move to France!"... "Pay for the war? Ah, hell no I want every dollar I earn!"

Guess they're not interested in having their kids fight the war but have no problem having their grand kids pay for it.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Willravel

Did you enjoy Gomer Pyle, USMC? I kinda get that "we're at war, but idiots can still be funny" vibe from Bush. Cheney is a dead ringer for Sgt. Carter. "PYYYLE!!"

jewels

ClearChannel and those guys do suck, but they've made business decisions. There are no "great" bands for teen music and our kids' tastes are so diverse because they are exposed to so much new music on myspace, that the execs and producers don't know where to go. Necessity and the internet have brought a new "cool" into town.

Most teens today think "radio bands" are not cool (FallOut Boy comes to mind). These kids are the first total myspace generation. Each kid has bands that they've "discovered" and push their parents to take them to "shows". For those not familiar, they're clubs that hire (usually) four (myspace) bands that will tour together to play from 8 - 11 pm, one night only, in different cities in a region. These shows are very intimate, maybe 2-300 people can stand, there are no seats. You can touch and hug band members, get autographs, etc.

I've taken my teens to two concerts this year, and we have two more planned in the next month or two. At $15 or less per ticket, it's a fairly inexpensive night out where they can see their favorite bands and meet up with the myspace "friends" that like the same music.

Sometimes, these kids and the shows will make the band, i.e. My Chemical Romance, which started this way. But now the other kids won't listen to them anymore, because now they're a "radio band". Get it?

We've all done this as teens; we wanted to be listening to something that made us different. And it is, it's just the same kind of different.

Or: I agree with Charlatan.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

uncle phil

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

pan6467

I can accept the changes in entertainment.... I guess that is just me getting old.

But really come on now, people work hard and try to live the American dream and because they didn't have the right credit they end up in an ARM... then they lose their jobs and rates go up? How is that their fault? And to say "it's just business".

Have we truly become so fucking greedy that we just don't care about others problems as long as we have ours?

I mean we look for cheaper products, so we can buy more, but in the end we ship jobs overseas and the jobs we do keep here pay less and less so then we have to find cheaper goods but that leads to even more jobs being lost and lower wages and so on...... we are facing a downward spiral and all anyone can say is "It's business now, tough shit learn to deal with it...etc".

Then we have candidates, that be honest now, are so inept and have no ideas how to save this country from the downward spiral, that it is sad. Not one of these candidates would have ever gotten this close to the presidency 10,20,30 years ago..... We need a truly great leader to save this country and we get Obama, McCain and Clinton? Wow.

We are at war and yet we buy more and more imports every year. China is our greatest rival and enemy and we are worried that they may cash in their dollars and plummet our economy? How the Hell did we allow them to get that much power over us?

And we won't even talk about how crazy we all seem to be getting.

As much as I want to be optimistic and love this country and believe that we will overcome.... I just can't be that anymore. I see a sad out of control downward spiral and not enough people care enough to stop it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ItWasMe

You know, Grandpa used to say things like that twenty years ago. In fact, he said it several times in a row because he kept forgetting that he'd just had that conversation (btw that was not a joke). I could understand what he was saying then, but I can see it even more clearly now. I think we're getting old, Pan.

__________________
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

Cynthetiq

You don't have to have take an ARM. No one puts a gun to your head to sign on the dotted line. That's a conscious choice. You could continue to rent and work on your credit. Of course, while that goes on the prices continue to fluctuate, by the time your credit is good, you may or may not be be able to finally purchase something. How is that again MY fault? YOU fucked up your credit. Remember when the teacher said, "This is going to go on your permanent record." Well, there is some place where there is REAL consequence to your bad choices and decisions. A person who has poor credit pays more for things, and thus if they have less dollars earned they waste money on higher interest rates. Again, how is that MY fault? High FICO scores aren't about high wages, they are about good credit

from businessweek.com
You will pay an additional $154,131 <---- Is that really MY problem?


It's never changed.

Everyone cares about themselves FIRST. I know that I do. If you don't, that's great, but when push comes to shove, will you really give your last bite of food to someone else and starve yourself?

No one tells you to carry a huge debt load on your credit cards. Watching any of the shows like Suze Orman where people call in and say things like "I've got $30,000 in credit card debt, but I'd like to know if I can afford to go on this $10,000 European vacation." "WTF?" Is what goes on in my head when I see or hear this kind of irresponsible question and behavior.

People overspend for Christmas and go into debt for the a good portion of the year, is that responsible? Because they want to have a "nice" Christmas. or but Johnny wanted that XBox360 so I had to get it for him. No fuckin' way. You do without, you make sacrifices, you do something else. You don't go into debt to buy things that don't matter.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Charlatan

While I do sympathize over jobs lost, I still maintain that this is the way the world is going and there is little you can do to change the increase in the Globalization of goods and services.

As I see it, the choices are this:

a) restrict or close the borders to trade and services and prices will go up via inflation or the increased costs of manufacturing, etc. Not to mention, the additional benefits that generally come with increased trade - increasingly stable world politics through greater mutual understand, etc.

b) learn to work in the new realities, experience an adjustment in lifestyle and opportunities, etc.

It's interesting, for years many have called for increased foreign aid and support for the third world. Now that some of these nations are stumbling towards self sustaining economies, sometimes at the expense of jobs in the west, those same people are crying foul.

You can't have it both ways.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

mixedmedia

I agree with this. The world is changing. People in other countries (not American, no, but how much does that really matter?) are reaping the benefits (and the headaches) of opportunities that seemed unthinkable just a generation ago. We are still better off than about 90% of the rest of the world who *wish* they had something as mundane to complain about as the sluggish economy and their credit scores.

Suck it up, I say.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

yeah, the curious thing i suppose is that this globalizing capitalism game has been sold to folk as an unqualified good--which probably got taken to mean "good for me" since the Good and "good for me" are synonymous here
(i dont know if that's a particularity or not...i suspect it kinda is and kinda isnt)

but let's not be naive about what globalization means: mostly it means, if you actually look at it, the exportation of new and improved versions of the worst features of american-style mass production-oriented factory-fragments (now suppliers in supply chains) to places with weak labor laws, no unions and a big version of what marx used to call the "industrial reserve army"---the central spaces within which these operations are located are those strange "free trade zones" or tax havens---which makes them free of any meaningful contact with the surrounding economies--they are not in ANY meaningful sense contributing to the "development"--what the fuck does that mean?--of the "third world" (which was where before 1960? o wait, i remember: it was empire--and so this "globalization" thing...why it's neocolonialism..but no no, no-one reads those books anymore)...

you remember the good old days, those halcyon days of neoliberal-inspired debt spirals, forced privatization of infrastructure (including in many cases water) repression of political dissent all in the name of "free markets". of course you do.

the state is dismantled, transfers of wealth erased to the greatest possible extent, markets opened for american agricultural combines to dump the results of pathological overproduction of industrial farm objects--and furhter afield, in the various manufacturing shitholes brought to you by nike or versace or the computer hardware manufacturer of your choice wages are low low low and explotiation is high high high and if Trouble comes, the facility can just move.

go team.

all this for the greater profit of shareholders in this the great milton freidman be-responsible-for-nothing-except-profit world expressed in domestic political terms by the populist right and republican party--you know, that curious combination of absolute priority given to profit on the one hand and wholesale delusion about what that might mean for the working joe--now more likely the "service industry joe" in the united states.

there are other things happening as well--the same logic has been applied to more skilled work, and NOW suddenly globalizing capitalism is a bit more scary--but it is STILL in neoliberal-land an unqualified good and trying to oppose it is like being king lear...

let's try to be realistic about this folks--even though it's hard to say anything coherent about much of anything in these little boxes---stock has been trading transnationally since 1970 or so. Since 1970 then the ownership of capitalist firms has no longer been specific to nation-states. Since the 1980s and accelerating through the 1990s, you had a huge extension of just-in-time system inspired remodelling of manufacturing and the fragments of the process--"outsourced"--followed in general terms the pattern set by ownership.

in the united states, the hostility toward unions and the fact that many many people were chumped into buying the ideology of "free markets" is a condition of possibility for this kind of outcome--it is a condition of possibility to the extent that it is about the political consent that was required.

so it seemed to me that for 40 years alot of americans had their collective head up a collective ass about what was happening around you: now you pull it out, look around can't understand what you see because you refused to look beforehand and you cry foul.

presumably like most folk you supported the illusion of free markets and the concomitant lie about the greatest good for the greatest number because you thought that meant everything would be hunky dory for you---americans are like that in a way--it's all one great big lake woebegon, where everybody is above average.


as if this is not disturbing enough for nationalists, the bush administration has been a very significant accelerant in the american loss of power in financial markets. another transnational affair. we haven't really felt the effect of this one yet--but they're coming.

we are about to arrive the new third world.
we hope you've enjoyed your flight.
you booked the ticket, you slept for most of the ride, you misread the brochures.
but as you're about to find out, this is a cheap destination because, despite the photos and tourist copy, it sucks here. and there's no way out.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

Yes, I don't mean to imply that globalization is an altruistic endeavor, but it is certainly changing the lives of many people the world over - some for worse, some for better. I realize that exporting our way of life takes with it much of the things that I dislike, even abhor sometimes, about our values - cog-in-the-machine-ism, soulless consumerism, industrial sprawl, etc., etc., but there's no denying that giving people work in many places has enabled them to more easily accomplish basic tasks, like eating regularly. If I put myself in their place, I'd think that the concerns I've expressed above were pompous - the concerns of people who have not walked in my shoes.

But it is kind of delightful that those who have touted the unfettered glory of free market capitalism have found that their enthusiasm has borders - nationalistic pride - while the corporations, mega-corporations, industrial monoliths and their like recognize no such borders. They'll make the money wherever they can find it, whether it benefits Americans or not.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

well, it's more complicated than all that, methinks--in that they're expressions of the largely appalling dynamics of neocolonialism (of course there are folk who benefit, there are economic elites, often the products of this same process): but for alot of folk, these dynamics disappear behind a reality shaped by them--so in already miserable conditions, working in a factory for a tiny amount of money might be better than nothing---but if you read or hear what alot of these folk say about the day-to-day that these gigs make available to them, it's kinda difficult to swallow that "this is better than.." thing.

bottom line is that these firms are so completely, utterly irresponsible that it kinda defies the imagination. what assures that they will stay irresponsible is that they can pack up shop and leave if their margins get hit by most anything. there is, apparently, always a shittier place and always more desperate people to exploit. we of course wear the jersies they make, the shoes they make, drive the cars that contain the components of components that they assemble somewhere way down the supply chain that feeds the supply chain that feeds the supply chain. we have no real contact with or understanding of these conditions.

factor in that the same debt spiral that enabled the leveraging of things like "free-trade zones" also forced may governments into structural adjustment programs, which forced eliminations in a host of social services that were supposed to amerliorate the already shitty situations created for these folk by neo-colonialism---and in many areas by colonialism before that--and, well, it seems that for alot of the world's population, the reality that our socio-economic realities directly or indirectly sit atop of is so unbelievably shitty that it's almost not clear whether it's better to know about it or not.

it's probably better to know, somehow--but not if you're not in a position to do something to change things. just knowing and sitting with it---it's kinda horrifying. i'm serious about this: i sometimes wonder if it is damaging to know too much about this sort of thing without being able to do something with the information.


so that even if areas of the united states are sliding inch by inch into a new third world...folk in alot of areas in the south are sliding into the uncharted dimension of a fourth world--especially in sub-saharan africa.

sometimes the world is *so* ugly--sometimes it's necessary to sit and watch the birds outside. even in the crappiest of places, the same idea holds. there is solace, somehow.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

florida0214

I can't say that I have a whole lot more to add to that, but what cynical way to look at the world. There are so many cliches that can be thrown around..... The Liberal Media controls the world...Big government is tearing this country apart.... too many more to list.

While I agree with the OP I feel that money is the root of all these things. A necessary evil.

__________________
"Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

ngdawg

Or some of us go to school later in life, get fed the "financial aid" BS and after graduation, can't find a job and get stuck with 10's of thousands of school debt.....get the ARM because the school debt has swallowed us whole and then can barely make the mortgage....these weren't bad decisions, just bad results because those that control the money don't want to give it up without a fight.
.Being caught up in exactly that, it's hard to see it as "just business" but what else is it? The spouse lost what was thought to be a very secure job with a huge cosmetics manufacturer only to be told after 16.5 years that it's "just business,buhbye" as they move to Costa Rica or some such place.
This nation is becoming a nation of services, no longer interested in the pride of the American-made label because it's become too expensive to support those who make slapping that label on the box possible. It is a cycle of greed, but it's not the American worker who comes out of it unscathed. CEO's discovered the power of vested interest, took their wallets and ran outta town.
Jack Roush, a NASCAR car owner, ranted last year about allowing Toyota into Cup racing because it wasn't an American carmaker. Ironically, the badge, Camry, is the only fully-made American car in NASCAR. Chevy, Ford and Dodge all have most of their parts made off-shore.
AMEN! This election year is pitiful. Simply pitiful. There's two candidates arguing their "experience" and there's less than 20 years of that experience between them. Since when is being married to a president "experience"? I'm actually scared of whatever the results in November will be and I've been voting for 30 years. Did you know that if Hillary got elected, by the end of that first term we'd have had a quarter century of Bush/Clinton "leadership"? *me shudders
Nixon probably thought that by opening the trade with China, it would cause the downfall of their communism. He was wrong. In the meantime the afore-mentioned CEOs liked their growing bank accounts and couldn't care less about the politics of it all. Greed has no social conscience.
People care, but the power is not in laymen's hands. As you mentioned, look what we have running for president. Look who is controlling the money, the war machine, the nation's resources. It's not you, not me and not our neighbors. The millions of us are controlled by the few of them. Know how, if you go to a go-go bar, wave a 10 dollar bill, the dancer will come to you, wiggle her ass and get your $10? We're expected to wiggle while the ones holding everything call the shots. Example: I just got our gas and electric bill-$1200, part of which is from being past due. Can I pay it all? Nope. Can I tell them to shove it and I'll go elsewhere? Nope. I gotta wiggle....and I'm too busy wiggling to help anyone else or even come up with how to help anyone else.
We care, Pan, at least most of us. But we're all going down the same spiral and grabbing onto whatever we can to at least slow the fall. There are those who, like CYN, feel it's NMP and they're probably right. But when things get so askew that every newscast starts with what's happening with our economy, when people are forced to make choices between going out to dinner or paying a bill, the effects spread to everyone, whether they care or not.
Every decade for as long as I can remember, we've been listening to the doomsayers proclaim this country near a recession, in a recession, heading towards a depression, etc. It's still never gotten as bad as 1929 and I doubt it will.Doesn't make it any less scary for those of us walking the edge, but I have to believe that not every tunnel is endless.

Tully Mars

Or one goes to the Dr. one day and hear a string of words put together that they've never heard before. Two years later their bank account is near empty and three out of every four calls are from companies, mainly hospitals and doctors, are looking for "their" money. The other call is from some fool thinking you have money to buy something they're selling. I was lucky I had insurance and a business that continued to earn income even in my absence. Still wasn't enough. Insurance companies, it turns out, love to deny things. You know like medical care. Could have sworn when I bought it it was called medical insurance. Fortunately an arbitrator agreed with me.


No shit! I drove down to southern Mexico last summer. Eleven days in my Ford truck. I never once worried about finding a part. Must have pasted 15 very large Ford plants on the trip. I can also almost guaranty you any Wranger jeans you buy are being made down here.

Nafta was suppose to benefit everyone, at least to some degree. Well try buying an imported item down here. I just went in search of a digital camera to replace one that went tits up. I looked on-line and thought I'd buy a Nikon. Amazon had it for around $750 with the lens I wanted. Down here at Costco? $1500, most of the increase is the national sales tax. I glanced at the laptops and the one I bought right before leaving for about $1200 was $2300.

I know people who fly to Florida to replace their laptops, it's cheaper.



Yep, seems we're left looking at the lesser of three evils, which I'm told is still evil.

No some people will always want more. They're members of the "never is enough" club. And they don't give a shit if you starve.


Really since it became necessary, for whatever reason, for families to need two incomes the tunnel end never seems to appear, IMHO.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

powerclown

(Sung to: "We Are The Champions" by Queen)


I've paid my dues



Time after time



I've done my sentence



But committed no crime



And bad mistakes



I've made a few



I've had my share of sand kicked in my face



But I've come through



We are the champions



My friends



And we'll keep on fighting



To the end



We are the champions



We are the champions



No time for losers



'Cause we are the champions



of the World

vanblah

What?

powerclown

I've taken my bows



And my curtain calls



You brought me fame



and fortune



And everything that goes with it



I thank you all



But it's been no bed of roses



No pleasure cruise



I consider it a challenge before
The whole human race



And I ain't gonna lose



We are the champions



My friends



And we'll keep on fighting
Till the end



We are the champions



We are the champions



No time for losers



'Cause we are the champions



of the World

Willravel

Jesus fucking christ powerclown. Ugh.

pan6467

PowerClown, while I used to agree with all that, it ain't so anymore.

Our sports are corrupt, our entertainers are screwed up in the head and these people make more in a lifetime than teachers, cops, people who truly better society will make in 50 lifetimes.

Life isn't fair, true, but we have such gaps between the haves and have nots that it is pathetic and truly dangerous. We have people who have worked hard all their lives and because of medical, ARMS, student loans, outsourcing, temp services and so on, they lose it all. And the saddest part is the people who are next to lose keep saying, "well those who have lost made poor decisions...it's all their fault... blah blah blah".

Meanwhile, the CEO's keep making more in one day than 90% of their workers combined will in 1 year. They have care only about more and more. Now we have to ask why.

Why are these CEO's stockpiling their monies? Why are these men building fortresses for homes? Why do they feel the need to buy private islands, own 100's of acres and have armed guards? Because they know eventually the workers will revolt.

In order to keep from a revolution, we need to make sure people make barely enough to live so they can't afford to care enough to revolt, prevent them from organizing by making them all hate each other (racisms, partisanship, paranoia, etc) and feed them pablum news items... did you hear the latest on Britney, Bengelina, Clemens, etc... while issues such as the government and waterboarding, the Patriot Act, the war... etc become little blurb news items that no one pays attention to.

Except for a few sports items and the capture of Hussein.... what picture there represents what's best about the country in the last 25 years?

A space program that is in shambles and soon will have no program to send men up for at minimum 10 years while they build the "new" ships.

Industries that have left communities and states near bankruptcy as hey ship jobs overseas?

A government no longer by the people, for the people but controlled by corporate/foreign/ whack job extremist lobbyists?

We have had enough. We the people need to get right what is wrong and find those who will make it happen and cast out those who say "nothing is wrong, the people losing everything... it''s their own damn faults not ours, not big business, not governments.....

meanwhile:

for every person losing a job that tax money is lost.... who do you think makes up the loss?

as people lose more and more and people get paid less and less.... what do you think their kids see?

crime increases as economies falter, drug use increases, discontent, violence and so on all keep increasing.

Those who say nothing is wrong are far far removed from the streets and the communities where the discontent is growing. First it hits the "bad" areas, but eventually and that time is approaching very fast where these people decide to start going after the haves....(hence he fortress homes, the homes overseas, the 100's of acres with armed guards that are small militaries).

The time is coming fast... you can feel it, smell it, see it and know it deep down. And the people who keep saying, "it's not my problem... it's all theirs..." who have bought into the propaganda from the very wealthy and believe that nothing will ever happen to them because they are smart..... will be the ones the rich men they protected throw to the wolves first. And when those protectionists are gone.... the rich will acquiesce and make concessions to restore the peace.

It happens in every revolution and every uprising... the Romans formed European royal families and the Holy Roman Catholic Church after the troops they had built from conquered city states failed, the British sent Hessians over and surrendered when the Hessians from Germany stopped coming to their aid, the French nobles that controlled Louis were in Prague and other parts of Europe before the revolution because they saw it coming, same with the Romanov family from Russia, the USSR communists just changed parties and said "ok, freedoms" and so on and so on.

Those in power and with the money, do not give it up until those they fool into believing that they too will have power, lose.

Pessimistic? Perhaps. But the time is coming soon, again we all can feel something big is going to happen..... the question is what are you willing to do to stop it NOW before it gets that far?

Then again..... PowerClown.... it could just be we all lack Ghoul Power and the magic of Froggy.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Tully Mars

Least you got it, I thought someone put the wrong mushrooms on his salad last night. Also got many of the lyrics wrong. I mean come on it's "Bohemian Rhapsody." It was in "Waynes World," it's a classic, get it right.


I pretty much agree with you on all points. Except I think the fat cats are building bigger houses and more stuff to show off to other fat cats, again with the "never is enough" club. They're not worried about any revolt, the US population has been beaten down so long they'll accept anything at this point. I heard a congress women from some upper mid west state bragging about the workers in her district. She said (something like) "We're really proud of our work ethic up here, most people are working two job and some even three! And she said that like it was a good thing. Hey dumb ass- people are working two and three jobs because your economy SUCKS ASS!

People are too busy feeding their families to revolt against anything or any one.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Charlatan

Interesting that the song was written and sung by Britons...

Just saying.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

powerclown

What...you don't like Queen? They're British too, right. It was bad at the end of Carter's presidency too, and look how things improved after 8 years of The Gipper.

roachboy

i suppose that anyone can say just anything on a messageboard--but this is just dissociative. that cant be a happyplace. well, i suppose it can if you dont know its dissociative.

WAKE UP.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

I love Queen. I hate threadjacks. This is the father of all threadjacks.

pan6467

I don't think PC was a threadjack.

Says exactly why he posted them here. And he has a very legitimate point, it has looked bad in this country in the past and we have always come through stronger. It's optimism I wish I still had, to be honest.

No, those pics show me that we should be looking at them going, "we DID that and WE can do better NOW."

Unfortunately, the pessimists in all of us and the first reactions are "threadjack" and that is part of the problem. We have been conditioned to look at inspirational things and say "that's the past". It may well be, the problems above are very real and we need a great leader to help us recover from first though.

Once we rebuild and get back to sanity (if it is possible.. but again we need a ruly great leader that inspires, McCain/Obama/Clinton are not exactly inspirational) we will accomplish all those and more. I just hope it is soon. I don't want to leave a fucked up nation that is borderline third world with no hope to me son and someday grandchildren. I want a country for them as great as the country that I, my parents and grandparents grew up in.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

there are structural problems that we need to address--or at least face--the implications of choices that are now part of the collective history that shapes the realities we move through. addressing these problems really isn't a matter of attitude.

personally, my optimism about the states resides entirely in the possibility that we can, collectively, make fundamental changes in the system that we work within. i think it is, in fact, possible that we can make this a different, better place on a more rational and sustainable basis than it now is.

take for example the ridiculous levels of state spending that is pushed into the military. i put up a thread about this last night in politics because i happened to find a couple articles that spoke directly to this problem and which use recent data to make the case---the american system is proving to be about as flexible as the soviet system was--absurd levels of resources have gone into "defense" systems (the soviet correlate was heavy industry and military sectors) to the neglect of civilian-oriented activities, infrastructure, education, etc. this model has been wrapped up in others--the delusional system of "free markets" for example--the consequences of which lay behind every last point in the op, and every last point that has followed---they fit together in that military expenditures and war was taken as a mechanism to stabilize the economy in general (this is one argument--i think the picture is more complicated, but hey, this is a messageboard and complexity is an affliction). this is coming unravelled and the problems you complain about are symptoms.

this is not the end of the world.
there are alternatives which are possible--if we face the reality we are dealing with. if we don't--welcome to the new third world. but i don't think we are collectively past a point of no return. but to face that reality and do begin maybe doing something about it requires work and that work requires--i think--a basically different political context--one in which information about problems is as important as information that enables you or me or anyone else to "feel good" and by feeling good to pretend that everything is basically hunky dory--it is irresponsible to retreat into this position at a point where things need to change, the basic priorities we have been working within for 60 years have to change, the model is finished, it is over--but not everything is over--the model has simply run its course.

i personally do not care about patriotism and the circle-jerk that is its core--but i do care that a more humane system, a more sustainable system is possible and that the same levels of effort and ingenuity that went into fashioning the current model could be expended making a different, better one.

the world as it currently is is an ugly ugly place in many ways--but it doesn't have to be that way. change is not automatic. change is political--politics is information, debate, deliberation. there is no god that will take care of us--we are not a city on a hill--nothing is accomplished by self-congratulation or pining for a previous moment when self-congratulation was easier.

we have to look.
we have to wake up and look.
we have to figure out how to act--even if it's in a small context and affects small things--the make a different SYSTEM---a variant of what is, but not the same as what is.

there are reasons to be optimistic.
there are reasons not to be.
much depends on how you see the choices, whether you see them as being addressed or not.

right now, most of what i see in american politics is avoidance.
that can go on--and the shit will hit the fan--and then we'll all be boo hoo something bad happened where we you daddy why didnt you think for us so that we could be safe. or we could collectively grow the fuck up, stop pretending that we are the world and start thinking about how to make things otherwise.

take money out of the ridiculous military-industrial contractor-orld and spend it on rebuilding infrastructure, set up microcredit systems that enable new types of economic and social diversity to unfold, invest state funds in supporting civilian oriented economic possibilities--provide universal health care, change the way public education is funded away from local property taxes to flat funding across states. rebuild infrastructure, change the transportation model away from our near-exclusive reliance on automobiles.

why the hell not? the united states spends more on "defense" against imaginary enemies than the rest of the world put together. and that's just one sector.


there are lots of possibilities--try to look forward.
the past is gone.
no amount of lamentation will change that.
the past is gone, over, dead as a doornail and every minute it falls further and further away. there is no going back.


but we are alive--and that is a lovely thing--and we should look and move forward because there really is no other rational choice.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

uncle phil

what improved?

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

host

powerclown, if Ronald Reagan was not a "product" of the activity and intent displayed below, (please tell me the date when the "process", and the "playas"...the wealthy scions of society who controlled the media...."changed", and I will withdraw my comments...) WTF was Reagan, then?

If I, as you do, found my own POV to be so closely in synch with the wealthiest, conservative white men who call the shots in the good ole USA, i wouldn't be posting confirmation of it on an internet discussion forum..... I'd be too concerned about triggering suspicion that I was incapable of thinking anything that was not influenced by huge amounts of investment of those who require many to think the way you do, if they hope to overcome their lack of a natural constituency, each election day.

powerclown

Out of many things, he gave millions of Americans reason to be optimistic again. Like what Kennedy did for America in the 60s. Would you consider that improvement?

ngdawg

Nope. "We Are the Champions." Only lyric he got wrong was "And I never lose", not 'we ain't gonna lose".

uncle phil

are you serious?

between ronnie raygunz and GB I, this country was seriously headed for the economic toilet. i defer to Host for the particulars...

where were you in the 70's and early 80s?

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Tully Mars

Well wipe the egg from my face. Knew the lyric was off but had the song all wrong. Perhaps I should check my salad mushrooms?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

powerclown

I was dicking around at the time, much like Carter. Reagan's tax cuts and regulatory reforms led to some of the greatest economic times this country has ever known. He set into motion events that created 17 million new jobs, and cut black unemployment in half. Pretty impressive in my book.

host

powerclown, is it "improvement"....the result of Reagan persuading so many to engage in "politics of avoidance"? His message was that a disasterous war was a "noble cause", and that "free markets" should be permitted to feed us "cheap oil", until we abandoned all of Carter's alternative energy initiatives and investment, and until the entire fledgling solar energy industry was bought up and curtailed by big oil, itself. The lesson that could have been learned from the war in Vietnam, was "avoided", and here we are today, trapped in Iraq and in Afghanistan, all of our ground forces, and even our National Guard.

The US is totally dependent on foreign oil and "enjoys" twin $700 billion plus annual debt increases in trade and national debt. Oil hit $103 per bbl, just this week.

Yeah, "Ronnie" made us "feel good", because he told us not to worry about oil or imperialistic foreign poilicy, and we listened. The rich ole boy WASP oligarchy that paid to produce "Ronnie" and to persuade you to think politically and socially, in lockstep with the way they think, must be awfully proud of the way their plan has worked out. They are wealthier than ever before, but we're ?????


From post #14 <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108864">Vietnam:Reagan's "Noble War", The Left forced the US to fight with one hand tied,Or?</a> thread:

ngdawg

We can step back in time to Kennedy and his sending more than just a patrolling "police action" to Vietnam....by the time Johnson took over, we were so far into the pit, he couldn't see his way out....

Remember the "gas crisis" of about 1978-78? Wasn't Reagan. Carter.
In 1981, during Reagan's first full year, interest rates went up
in a bid to stop the "great inflation of the 60's and 70's". The recession that followed was dubbed the worst since the Great Depression, but was shortlived; within one year, the US experienced a "robust expansion".
Source

Every election year, we go through an "economic crisis". It's fear generated by the money traders but we blame it on whomever holds office. Of course, the president of time isn't totally blameless, but neither is he wholly responsible. But it's so much easier to blame one guy than memorize the names of all those who truly are responsible.

host

ngdawg, I am glad that you are posting regulalry here. But I don't read the same "stuff" you do, I guess.....

From Kennedy's last two news conferences:




Kennedy did not live to give another news conference because he died in Dallas, eight days later....

What did you like best about the "Reagan economic miracle", was it the huge increase in debt triggered by deep tax cuts and simultaneous increases in military spending? We still haven't paid back the $3-1/2 trillion, and the interest paid to service that debt has long since eclipsed any benefit from the "expansion" it helped to drive. It took more than 80 years to accumulated a national debt just under $1 trillion. Reagan racked up a quick $1-1/2 trillion and his successor, Bush, almost $2 trillion more.....

Yes, the national debt, just under $1 trillion when Reagan's first annual federal budget year began, only increased 4-1/2 times, by the time we were rid of 12 years of Reagan/Bush voodoo fiscal discipline.

In the year preceding the first Clinton managed federal budget, the years ending 9/30/93, the national debt had increased $390 billion in just 12 months.

At the end of the 7th Clinton managed budget year, on 9/30/00, the national debt increased just $18 billion in the previous 12 months, and unemployment was at it's lowest percentage level, ever.

Isn't it easier to "ramp up" job growth when you are increasing the national debt by $350 billion per year, on average over 12 years, than when you are reducing it, to an average of just $160 billion per year, over the subsequent seven year period?

ngdawg

Whre in those Kennedy interviews does he state that he increased the "police action" in Vietnam from 500 US troops to 16,000?

host

These are probably Kennedy's last public words on the subject, in an answer to a reporter during his final news conference, on 11/14/63:

Now what is it that you are trying to do with this? The man was suddenly killed. Before he died, he state his intent for the direction of troop levels in Vietnam, as I documented in the quotes from his last two news conferences, in my last post.

If he had not been killed, and had done the opposite as far as troop levels in Vietnam, of wha the said he planned to do, I could see where you are trying to take your srgument. That is not how things went. He did not live to do anything beyond what he said he planned to do.

What influences your apparently unwavering opinion on this? Is it the interpretation of others? Who are they?

ngdawg

I don't have an unwaivering opinion of this. It's a simple fact-Kennedy increased the troops presence in Vietnam from 500 to 16,000. It matters not what he "said" he'd do because he was killed.
How many of us get judged by what we say we're going to do? I'm thinking...nobody but politicians.

If I have any opinion at all it's that we as Americans need to stop sugarcoating things and making people saints. The 'Good Old Days" weren't that good, they're just old. This thread is about that, more or less. For every sentiment, there's a reality and for every reality, there's an alternate version.
Kennedy was martyred-he made some major blunders during his short term; only by being assassinated was his position elevated to that of regal US saint.