Baraka_Guru

It sounds much better when you read it in a book or listen to a lecture.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Tully Mars

This conversation over tea, ala British style, would make a killer SNL bit.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

biznatch

JJ, awesome post, and it does a great job of showing the ridiculous amount of importance we attach to words.

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JumpinJesus

I just wish fish_oinc would return and shed some light on some of these questions. I'm all about having discussions on race, just not superficial discussions on words.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

genuinegirly

This made me laugh.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Baraka_Guru

Isn't this the point of the thread? I mean, look at the OP. Seriously.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SecretMethod70

This thread started out...questionably...but it seems that a decent discussion is coming out of it. Bravo.

I tried googling a number of sentences from the OP and couldn't find any that gave a result other than back to this thread. Nonetheless, I edited the OP to put the rant in quotes, just to make that a little more clear.

I'm also moving this thread to General Discussion because it seems to fit better there with the way it's developing.

Finally, I must agree with Jenny_Lyte's post #4 and JumpinJesus' post #40.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

mixedmedia

I agree with Jenny Lyte on this thread, as well.

Surprise, surprise.

Personally, I don't care how a person wants to self-identify and I'm of the opinion that anyone who does care is the one with the problem.

And I think diversity is important. I think appreciating diversity is very important. The challenge for us all is to overcome the anxiety and prejudices that are caused by diversity, not to squelch it or pretend that it doesn't exist. I'm always very suspicious of these kinds of arguments. To me they sound like a cop-out.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

hmmm...yeah...I think the discussion can be interesting, and has some validity to it in a sense. But the OP just sounded idiotic, in my opinion. If you want to call yourself African American, just go back to Africa? Huh? Moderately disjointed argument?

Funny post jj.

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flat5

"I wonder if black people sit around and have long, drawn-out discussions regarding what to call white people and try to sound enlightened while doing it."

Thank you JumpinJesus.

Funny!

That almost made this sad thread worth the bytes.

Sion

why?

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Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

Baraka_Guru

Homogeny's boring, for one.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Driven through West Virginia recently? I can attest to this fact.

Diversity ROCKS.

...

I honestly hope everybody on the planet screws somebody with a different skin pigmentation and we all have these beautiful brown babies with no discernible "race" and we're forced to discriminate based on something different yet equally petty.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Grasshopper Green

The xenophobic OP aside...I really don't understand the reasoning behind calling oneself "whatever"-American. I'm just American. I have ancestors from England, Denmark, France, and America (I'm about 1/4 Cherokee/Choctaw). I'm pasty white in the winter and bronze nicely in the summer...I was a brown baby/child and my skin started lightening in my late teens. I can appreciate celebrating diversity and ancestry...but the labeling of something-American really puzzles me, and IMO, causes more friction than anything.

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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Plan9

YEAH! YEAH! WOOOO!

Alright, who wants to make mixed-race babies with me!?

Let's do it for diversity!

*waves tube of KY patriotically*

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Personally, I don't see the reason to strongly identify with "American" at all. As a Canadian, I often find myself waking up to this occasionally....

"What? Oh, I, uh, I'm a... Canadian! Yeah...." (Oh, heh, he wanted to know my nationality....)


Oh, and, Crompsie, you should come to Toronto. Plenty of opportunity to "mix it up" here.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Grasshopper Green

It's not something that I think of on a regular basis. In fact, it's not something I really think of until a conversation like this comes up. However...it does tend to come up more often than I'd like.

When I lived in NC, I had a friend who adamantly called himself an African American and was kind of offended by the word "black". I asked him why it was such a big deal and he never gave me a satisfactory answer. I really think it is a cultural thing...America being a melting pot and whatnot.

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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Barstool

This is the most insightful comment in this thread.

FWIW, I agree with the OP 100%.

mixedmedia

Well, because obviously we are not all the same. Obviously, we were never meant to be the same. Obviously, we will never be the same. Therefore, I think it is a legitimate challenge for us to attempt to live with and appreciate these differences. To accept them, while also realizing our intrinsic similarities. To purport that we should ignore them - pretend to not see them - seems both unrealistic and misses the point.

Are there no people you are differentiated from? Is there no group or identity that you are proud to be a part of?

Why are there so many different sects to the major religions? Why don't they all just forget their differences and go to the same churches, worship in the same way, be the same?

Why do gay men and women want to embrace their diverse sexual identity?

Why do north-easterners differentiate themselves from mid-westerners?

Also, if the idea is to suppress racial or cultural diversity, what is the default culture? What are we supposed to be like? What is the status quo for such an endeavor? I mean, there has to be a point where we are coming from. From which to base who is being 'diverse' and who isn't.

Diversity, people being different - coming from different places, living differently, eating differently, listening to different music, playing different games, speaking different languages, wearing different clothes, different religions, different codes of behavior, different outlooks on life, different memories, etc., etc., etc. These things are never going to change, therefore it seems unimaginable to me that we should all ignore that they exist or worse, hate each other for them. It's one of the greatest challenges that has faced mankind from the very beginning of recorded history and we still haven't just gotten it, yet. I believe we are supposed to appreciate both our similarities and differences simultaneously without feeling stifled by one and threatened by the other. I think we are able to do this, to a large extent, on an individual basis. But when it comes to talking about 'the big picture' we lose focus on just how simple it is.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

allaboutmusic

QFT. I believe the same is true of genders.

n0nsensical

The only thing that's worthy of is being printed on toilet paper. For some 300 years, white America enslaved, segregated, and otherwise divided and oppressed the Africans they brought here, and now just because there has been progress toward equality they're supposed to forget about all the past and continuing discrimination and join the rest of America... because white America is overjoyed to have them. (?) White people invented the racial divisions in [U.S.] society. Is it ignorance or a complete lack of respect for anyone else's point of view that causes people to think this way?

Strange Famous

I think there is a point here - but it is about America rather than race.

A lot of American's I know identify themselves as Italian, German, Irish, etc etc... all American's basically are immigrants (other than people of the native tribes), and there is not the same sense of blood and soil nationalism as you have in Europe for example. But the strange thing is that despite all this, America is one of the most patriotic nations on earth.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Cynthetiq

it is silly.

i recall as a youth being sent to the principal's office because i insisted that i was american. but the class and teacher stated i was something different because i was brown skinned and had slanty eyes.

i insisted i was american because that's what my parents told me to say if ever asked. to this day i will reply american to anyone who asks me where i am from until they clarify and ask what my heritage is. i am not filipino american and will resoundly argue with anyone who insists on labeling me as such. i am simply american.

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Charlatan

You were sent to the office for that? That's fucked up. They should have been celebrating that you were embracing the melting pot.

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fish_oinc

I didn’t write this or did I ever say that I approved it however I did think it was worthy of sharing and or having a discussion over . It’s funny that the forum I got it from has totally different view of it, mostly favorable , But of course that forum is full of Southern Red Necks I prefer not to mention it as I too am a Red Neck or an “Appalachian American “ and in good standing there and if you all invade it with your negative views I might loose it How ever if any one is interested in their reply’s I might post some of them,




I will say this I am American my wife is Canadian and not a Canadian American nor will I be a American Canadian when we retire up there. You are what you are

I see it has brought life to this forum not that it needs it none the less it is controversial

percy

Agree.

You are either American or African sounds as ignorant as " You are with us or you are against us."

But interesting enough, those same groups who are first to scream racism due to exclusion on any scale, seem to want to segregate themselves further at times.

We have a Miss America contest where all ethnicities are welcomed. So why a Miss Black America contest?

We have a worldwide music body that honours international artists for excellence in their genre called the Grammy Awards. We have the Latin Grammy awards. Is Latin music so much bigger than all other music genres in the world combined that it deserves a seperate show?

In Toronto, there is talk about having all black schools to accomodate black kids since mixed race schools are not meeting the values of those in the black community. What next? Schools for whites, asians, and every other cultural group under the sun? Segregation a la the 1950's? That worked well.

There is nothing wrong with promoting and sharing ones heritage and culture and being immensely proud of that circumstance. But when people start expecting different and special treatment because of their ethnicity, it's time to stop that world from revolving around themselves.

I know, I know. Racism is still alive and well and telling the victims to suck it up isn't exactly building bridges, but neither is segregating oneself to the point of exclusion.

Maybe the dividing line to racism is that some people aren't allowed what is deserving of them while others expect what isn't deserving of them.

jewels

FO: You stated that you thought it was "worthy" of "passing along" which, because it's all we were given in your OP, would suggest the words convey your beliefs. When one posts for discussion purposes, it's customary to set the tone by voicing your opinion or which aspect you want to discuss.

When you quote someone's words, it's appropriate to give them credit.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

JumpinJesus

I can appreciate that you don't want to share the link to the forum where this was originally posted. However, I wonder why you consider the responses that disagree with this fairly xenophobic rant to be "negative views"? Also, I get the impression from what you've typed that those who inhabit the forum you reference are the ones who seem to be separating themselves from others and don't want any outsiders invading their space.

I wonder how many of these people who rail against these labels consider themselves Confederates first, Americans second.

And finally, I can assume that none of these Southern Rednecks claim any ties to their Confederate heritage at all, seeing as how they consider themselves Americans and Americans only?

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Sion

bullpuckey!

racism existed long before white people began settling in N. America.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

debaser

I feel I speak for a majority of Magyar-Americans when I say that the writer of the original post was failed by the public education system.


That being said, I am not a huge fan of the X-American moniker either. Therefore I don't use it. I thought it a better course of action than an infantile and grammaticaly incorrect rant.

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QuasiMondo

Sometimes I wonder if black people chuckle to themselves over how we've gotten white people all in a tizzy over how we identify ourselves.

I know I do. Hell, I'm chuckling again after reading this thread.

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-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

pan6467

I find it detrimental to the nation and society as a whole when you put anything in front of American.

I am proud of my heritage (Irish, German, Welsh.. etc) however I am more proud to be an American. I was born here, I wore the uniform for her and even if I have political differences with people in charge.... it is still my home and I am blessed and honored that my soul was able to be here.

My feeling is if you have to put anything in front of "American" you have an identity crisis and need to either move to wherever or get over it. Be happy who you are. Realize that when I put something in front of American (say Irish) I put my Irish heritage above and beyond my American, now tell me how is that good for the country? It ain't.

We are fucking all Americans (well, those of us here, legally), we need to be proud of our country and rebuild her to her majestic glory.

When my great grandmother came from Germany and became a citizen, she didn't say "I'm German American" she proudly stated for the rest of her 96 years, "I am an American."

I am an American. Nothing else.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

JeremyRising

The idea behind African, Native, Hispanic, Irish, and so forth in front of the American title, is NOT for segregationist or elitist means. The original poster, and those who share the same aggressive bias do so out of prejudice and lack of deeper thought.

The reason is to celebrate the original ancestry, which shouldn't be forgotten of any culture.

America is the melting pot of all types of races, creeds, cultures, heritages, and so forth. So why not celebrate the different people's that make this country what it is?

I am black, and find some of the opinions here very prejudice. Otherwise, consider this.

Why are we so emotionally attached to labels? What one considers one self, should be personal on to that person. Otherwise, why do we bother ourselves with labels.

The fact that many of you argue "why African or whatever American", and chastise the use of those labels...but then refer to the group you are talking about as "black people" and "White people". This is a blatant hypocrisy.

How about you actually exercise your mind, and not worry yourself with stupid and trivial nonsense.

Male, female, black, white, Hispanic, rich, poor...Who cares. These are labels, and one of the stupid distractions civilization has created against itself, and in avoidance to issues that truly matter.

The end.

savmesom11

I think the Clinton campaign would be just as horrified by the hate filled spew of ignorance the OP decided to try and sell this intelligent community. I almost pointed out his obvious southern roots but realized I may sound just as discriminating. What a disgusting waste of my afternoon.

PS: It's a good thing that most Southern Americans are moving beyond this type of nonsense, after all Obama did win So. Carolina yesterday. Take that!

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Tully Mars

There's a certain low level lunicy to this conversation. Aside from the xenophobic comments contained in the OP there's another underlining issue. America is a big place. So big it takes up two complete continents. Admittedly the term "American" has been associated with United States citizens. But there's a whole bunch of people in Central and South America who consider themselves to be "American" as well.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

fish_oinc

Seems your putting words in my mouth I really don't care what is customary here, Thats your opinion, I said I didn’t approved it or necessarily agree with it or was I voicing my opinion on the subject just passing it along and as far as the giving credit to who wrote it I didn’t deem it necessary as I wasn’t sure how it would be taken here .


I never said they did want any one invading their space as it is an open forum I just didn’t want them to feel ill of me by posting this in a forum with such negative views of the matter (Again I didn’t approve of the post or do I condone it or reply to it )

My reference to them as Red Necks is my opinion it may not be theirs but I chose to be a Red Neck so I can I am an American and proud of it and love the recognition I get when I go to the City to visit I'm sure I stand out like a sore thumb (I go to Montreal frequently)

Now this might grow into another discussion on Red Necks and I will be glad to join you there.

The_Jazz

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dc_dux

Just as a point of inquiry, dont the rules for starting a thread require including a link to external articles as well as expressing a personal opinion on the article (not just...."I am passing this along"). I recall having a mod close a thread I created because my opinion was too briefly stated.

And this xenophobic e-mail has been circulating for years.

/end inquiry

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tully Mars

Of what personal attack are you speaking?

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dd3953

The person who wrote that forgot one (very important) thing. African Americans are NOT the people who gave themselves that label. Same as Native Americans.

Every "African American" I know (myself included) calls themselves "Black" because the giver of labels have not felt yet inclined to label us "Americans." We reject "African American" for the same reasons the writer gives. We are not African - not anymore.

However, we could be called "Americans formally known as Stolen Africans."

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[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]