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Old 12-15-2007, 08:24 PM   #121 (permalink)
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First off, they should screen everyone. It's airport security. I don't want anyone bringing on anything they shouldn't be.

Second, I don't think alienating the Muslim community through humiliating and unethical "special treatment" is a good idea at this time. I think everyone wants Muslims to feel like they're helping, not that they're being all but accused of being terrorists.
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Old 12-16-2007, 01:36 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
So since they aren't going to use planes anymore we can just do away with airport security?
Please, by any means, give me REAL security. Really make me feel safe in an airplane. Tons of us do wonder if it could happen again. But I do not feel safer when someone who just happens to be more dark skinned than me and comes from a different place goes receives unequal, different treatment. I just feel nauseous.
Now, what would make us feel safer? This might belong to another thread, but just for the sake of discussion:
Better detectors, for one. I've read countless stories of people forgetting their knife/lighter in their pocket and going through security without being stopped.
Also, I wouldn't mind having my ID checked as I board the plane. Once you're through security, you basically don't need an ID. Just your boarding pass. That's not reassuring
Air marshals would be great, too. They certainly could prevent a few guys armed with boxcutters.
The terrorists might not use planes next time. If they do, though, it'd be good to have smarter security policies, and way more effective than racial profiling.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:03 AM   #123 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?
Dead muslim girls have very little to do with McVeigh.
This thread is awry.
Yeah, agreed. Wtf is going on with this thread...
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:09 AM   #124 (permalink)
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And now some people close to this young girl are saying the hijab had nothing to do with it, that other women in the same family were not wearing the hijab.

Maybe the death of this young girl has sweet f-all to do with being Muslim and everything to do with being part of a disfunctional, stressed out family - as unfortunately happens often enough in "Christian" families.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...b-44ea5a8a7c36

Sorry, I cannot seem to cut and paste the relevant portion of the articles. My browser, I think, not a TFP related problem.
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:22 AM   #125 (permalink)
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here here. This has all the hallmarks of a long simmering conflict between teenaged daughter who was interested in hanging with her peers, and traditional, old-world minded father whose temper was definitely not held in check. Add on to that the issues that can cause flare ups such as stress of odl/new world culture and you have a situations where tragedy can happen.

Outside the family, the media can put a simplistic spin on the events, such as hijab/integration etc, but i suspect that it was much deeper than this.
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Old 12-16-2007, 07:57 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leto
here here. This has all the hallmarks of a long simmering conflict between teenaged daughter who was interested in hanging with her peers, and traditional, old-world minded father whose temper was definitely not held in check. Add on to that the issues that can cause flare ups such as stress of odl/new world culture and you have a situations where tragedy can happen.

Outside the family, the media can put a simplistic spin on the events, such as hijab/integration etc, but i suspect that it was much deeper than this.
If only it were that simple, but take a look at the honor killings even back in their own culture and country that go on to this day.

This is not an isolated incident.
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Old 12-16-2007, 09:24 AM   #127 (permalink)
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http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/Diana/fulltext/wile.htm

For example, in many countries, domestic violence has only recently been recognized as a crime. In other countries, it is considered to be outside the state's jurisdiction ... Mertus further documents that "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal "honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."

Best to do up a 4 page post and innumerable media articles on all those Christian South Americans too.

Seriously, whether this case is an honour killing or not that is directly related to Islam (which is unlikely, as this sort of thing is rare in places like Malaysia), directly related to local custom (possible) or just a case of a fucked up family and father (perhaps the most likely scenario), it is interesting to note how such practices occur today in some Latin American countries, in African nations (both Christian and Muslim). It wasn't that long ago (and I mean within my lifetime) that such things occured in Italy and Greece, too.

The point being that family violence is an issue a lot larger than one of "well, it's a Muslim problem".
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:46 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Some good points. What we see here is a particular brand of violence against women. At the risk of sounding repetitive, this is a cultural problem based on corrupt Islamic dogma.

It's true this isn't an isolated incident. This is not a reason to apply a disproportionate amount of indiscriminate pressure on the Muslim community as a whole.

A friend of mine was severely abused verbally and emotionally (and sometimes physically, I think) by her old-world Italian mother. She constantly degraded her, making her feel like a sexual deviant despite being chaste out of fear. There was little logic to her words; they were based on ignorance and a measure of hate. A very devout Christian woman. This wasn't a Christian thing per se, it was an old-Sicilian-Christian-now-living-in-Canada thing.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:43 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Geneva - More and more women and girls are being slain in "honor killings" around the world, a U.N. human rights investigator said Friday. Asma Jahangir, a prominent Pakistani lawyer and activist who serves as U.N. rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, called for governments to prosecute the killers, usually relative of their victims.

Honor killings, in which women are slain for perceived violations of a family's moral code, have been reported in Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey and Uganda, according to her annual report presented to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. "The perpetrators of these crimes are mostly male family members of the murdered women who go unpunished or receive reduced sentences on the justification of having murdered to defend their misconceived notion of 'family honor,' " Jahangir said. "The practice of 'honor killings' is more prevalent although not limited to countries where the majority of the population is Muslim," she said in a 37-page report.

But renowned Islamic leaders and scholars have condemned the practice and said that it has no religious basis, she said. On the order of clerics, an 18-year-old woman was flogged to death in Batsail, Bangladesh for "immoral" behavior, according to her report. In Egypt, a father paraded his daughter's severed head through the streets shouting: "I avenged my honor."

"It is reported that in Pakistan around 300 women are killed every year for crimes of 'honor'," said Jahangir, who is also chairwoman of Pakistan's national human rights commission. "Only a handful of the perpetrators are arrested and most of these criminals receive only token punishment. Jahangir said she was working closely with U.N. special investigators on violence against women and on the independence of judges and lawyers to address incidents of honor killings.
Quote:
LONDON – Heshu Yones was just 16 when her father slit her throat because of her choice of boyfriend. Sahjda Bibi was 21 when a cousin stabbed her to death in her wedding dress for marrying against family wishes. Rukhsana Naz was strangled by her brother and mother for getting pregnant by a lover. The slaughter of a succession of young women by their male family members in recent years has alerted Britain to a problem that has migrated to Western Europe along with growing minority communities from South Asia, Africa, and the Middle East: "honor crimes."

For their perpetrators, these crimes have "honor" because they fulfill tribal custom to redeem the shame that some women have supposedly brought upon their families.

Last month, British police said they were reviewing more than 100 recent murders that could have been honor killings in an effort to understand the crime pattern better.
I could go all host like on these with examples, yes such crimes are done in other cultures, but now its Muslims bringing it to our shores and that obviously can't be tolerated in the least. Liberals tell me its ok they do this in their own countries we have no right to interfere but if they want to bring this crap culture here then we need to start doing 'something' about it. I don't want the US to have Muslim youths rioting like they are in France, with a government afraid to act.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:51 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Liberals tell me its ok they do this in their own countries we have no right to interfere but if they want to bring this crap culture here then we need to start doing 'something' about it.
Which liberals are you talking about? Your liberal friends?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I don't want the US to have Muslim youths rioting like they are in France, with a government afraid to act.
I hope the US has learned from the Black riots that have already happened. It would be a shame if the Muslim American community falls into the same class of racism. But this is a different story. This isn't about violence against women within the context of cultural shortcomings as contrasted to progressive societies. What you are talking about is systemic racism within the context of multiculturalism.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:05 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Second, I don't think alienating the Muslim community through humiliating and unethical "special treatment" is a good idea at this time. I think everyone wants Muslims to feel like they're helping, not that they're being all but accused of being terrorists.
I lived in Rhodesia during the revolution period. It was this time the bomb killed losts of people at the Wooly's in Salisbury. It was a real mess. After that the Army conducted spot checks. They were very effective and they gathered everyone around a whole city block - black and white - and looked in their bags. I didn't mind having my bags checked and it was nice to feel safe again. The shops however controlled only black africans entering. But do I blame them? Did I feel any less safe? Nope. In desperation the "terrorsts" place a few bombs in letter boxes (only once) that turned the contents into shreds, but no one was hurt.

If you're blind I don't think you would be offended if someone noticed that you cannot see. In dangerous situations those involved know the score. I think that if I were an American Arab (concerned about the lives of my family) I'd like to know that the U.S. government is doing something to protect me. Controlling Arabs more than anyone else would probably comfort me rather than offend me. That's the way it should be too.
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:11 AM   #132 (permalink)
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How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:11 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analog
How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?
The word "Muslim" came up.

It's like Pavlov's Dog.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:03 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by analog
How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?
Literate people call it "discussion".
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Old 12-18-2007, 04:21 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fast Forward
Literate people call it "discussion".
People who aren't being smart-asses call it derailing a thread, going off-topic, and threadjacking.

And I'll thank you to spare us your opinions on our literacy.
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:15 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by analog
And I'll thank you to spare us your opinions on our literacy.
Whew! Talk about "jumping to conclusions", "chip on the shoulder" and inferior complexes. Who's "us" and "our" anyway? Did I forget to mention paranoia too?

Last edited by Fast Forward; 12-19-2007 at 03:19 AM..
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Old 12-19-2007, 05:43 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Whew! Talk about "jumping to conclusions", "chip on the shoulder" and inferior complexes. Who's "us" and "our" anyway? Did I forget to mention paranoia too?
I'd appreciate it if you'd quit yammering nonsense and let this thread get back on track. Thanks.

Last edited by analog; 12-19-2007 at 05:45 AM..
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:34 AM   #138 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analog
How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?
Post #57 was the first but post #70 got me rolling for #71.
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:23 AM   #139 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analog
I'd appreciate it if you'd quit yammering nonsense and let this thread get back on track. Thanks.
... and you truely believe that this comment of yours is the best way to accomplish that, do you?

I'll folllow your lead back, how's that?

You're welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Post #57 was the first but post #70 got me rolling for #71.
Again with the level-headed logic, Ustwo. You're a real killjoy.

Last edited by Fast Forward; 12-20-2007 at 04:25 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12-20-2007, 06:01 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analog
How in the hell did this thread go from a guy killing his teen daughter to racial profiling at the airport?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Post #57 was the first but post #70 got me rolling for #71.
Now I know why my wife gets so aggravated with me for being over literal. But, still, it appeals to my bizzare sense of humor.

Fast Forward.
Let's put the attitude away, what say? I think that you've pretty much expended your allotment of "snarkiness", and are now beginning to operate on a deficit. 'Nuff said?
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Old 12-20-2007, 07:00 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Now I know why my wife gets so aggravated with me for being over literal. But, still, it appeals to my bizzare sense of humor.
I'm glad someone appreciated the effort
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:59 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Fast Forward.
Let's put the attitude away, what say? I think that you've pretty much expended your allotment of "snarkiness", and are now beginning to operate on a deficit. 'Nuff said?
I see. So your comment on "snarkiness" and "deficit operation" is what you consider "attitude put away", eh? I find your attitude (now) something in the realm of "attitude given another spin of the wheel".

If perpetual motion had been given its' full reign "the attitude" would have been put to sleep by now, but you think your comment is some kind of lofty contribution to diplomatic peace? Jesus wept.

Here's some advice: Go back to sleep and "the attitude" will join you. Now .... "nuff said". Unless you'd like to enter the arena one more time?
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:28 AM   #143 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Fast Forward
I see. So your comment on "snarkiness" and "deficit operation" is what you consider "attitude put away", eh? I find your attitude (now) something in the realm of "attitude given another spin of the wheel".

If perpetual motion had been given its' full reign "the attitude" would have been put to sleep by now, but you think your comment is some kind of lofty contribution to diplomatic peace? Jesus wept.

Here's some advice: Go back to sleep and "the attitude" will join you. Now .... "nuff said". Unless you'd like to enter the arena one more time?
What, exactly, is your problem?
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:09 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Here's some advice: Go back to sleep and "the attitude" will join you. Now .... "nuff said". Unless you'd like to enter the arena one more time?
Funniest thing I've seen in a while, thank you for the giggle.
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:10 PM   #145 (permalink)
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wow.. i go and come back and theres a thread i thought looked interesting..

would have loved to contribute.. and as a liberal muslim, would have loved to contribute to the discussion as i think i would have had much to add to the discussion.

unfortunately the way this thread has gone, it irks be to think that i'd rather not contribute as i personally think that it really think that any additions i made wouldnt be constructive given the downward spiral this thread has taken.
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:06 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dlishsguy
wow.. i go and come back and theres a thread i thought looked interesting..

would have loved to contribute.. and as a liberal muslim, would have loved to contribute to the discussion as i think i would have had much to add to the discussion.

unfortunately the way this thread has gone, it irks be to think that i'd rather not contribute as i personally think that it really think that any additions i made wouldnt be constructive given the downward spiral this thread has taken.
I am SOOOOO emailing you the next time that one of these pops up.....
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:38 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlishsguy
unfortunately the way this thread has gone, it irks be to think that i'd rather not contribute as i personally think that it really think that any additions i made wouldnt be constructive given the downward spiral this thread has taken.
I think the "downward spiral" has been arrested. Please. Feel free to add your thoughts. It can only help to provide a little "altitude" to the thread. Plus, I have a feeling that you'd have quite a bit to impart.
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Old 12-21-2007, 04:20 PM   #148 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlishsguy
wow.. i go and come back and theres a thread i thought looked interesting..

would have loved to contribute.. and as a liberal muslim, would have loved to contribute to the discussion as i think i would have had much to add to the discussion.

unfortunately the way this thread has gone, it irks be to think that i'd rather not contribute as i personally think that it really think that any additions i made wouldnt be constructive given the downward spiral this thread has taken.
Heh, I knew you were a liberal Muslim, but I thought you were staying out of the thread on purpose, earlier. I wasn't blaming you for staying out of it, and I don't blame you for staying out of it, now. But I, for one, would still respect what you have to say on the issue.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:39 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Welcome to the rewards of promoting multiculturalism and rejecting the melting pot concepts of immigration.

They come to nations for a better life, while bringing the culture that made life in their lands suck to begin with.
I read ahead in the posts till I read Xephries, but, I'm coming back to this post.

I agree with Ustwo.

The murder of this girl is an example of how some cultures in this world are indeed fucked up. Sorry to be politically incorrect, but cutting off women's clitorises, and honour killings for not wearing the appropriate garb is just plain crazy.

Why anyone would want to import any such culture to North America is beyond me.

I'm all for multiculturalism when it comes to food, or restaurants. After that, I'll take my western civilization complete with the separation of church and state and equal rights for all thank you very much.

Xephries, fascinating post by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skada
They may do different but they do not talk/write about it in public. I don't see any arranging a conference on how the Book is all lies ...
Some do, but they end up with a dagger sticking out of their chest.

Or living in fear like Irshad Manji who wrote "The trouble with Islam."

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

This week in Toronto a 16-year-old Muslim girl was murdered, allegedly by her own father.

Aqsa Parvez told friends and adults at her public high school that she feared what her father would do if she stuck by her decision to reject the hijab — the Islamic headscarf. She also said it’s better to live in a shelter than at home.

Nobody listened. Now she’s dead.

Moderate Muslims have warned that we shouldn’t leap to conclusions. Who knows what other dynamics infected her family, spout hijab-hooded mouthpieces on Canadian TV. Not once have I heard these upstanding Muslims say that whatever the “family dynamics,” killing is not a solution. Ever. How’s that for basic morality?

Of course, mainstream Muslims will argue that I’m the one who needs to learn basic morality. After all, they’ll say, the Qur’an obligates pious women to wear the hijab.

Not quite. The Qur’an asks women and men to dress modestly. That could mean wearing long sleeves. The hijab itself comes from tribal culture that pre-dates Islam. And culture, far from being God-given, is man-made.

You need venture no further than Muslim Girl magazine to witness how mainstream Muslims reinforce the lie that the hijab is mandatory. This supposedly hip (and certainly glossy) publication routinely features covered girls as their cover girls. So much for representing the full diversity of the Muslim sisterhood.

Even “progressive” non-Muslims fall into this trap. Study the photo above. It’s a post-card flogged by the Interfaith Center of New York. Can you detect even one Muslim woman who’s not covered?

I see the veiled chick at the far end. It gets less conservative from there — but not to the point of depicting a Muslim woman who prays without submitting herself to a scarf.

Worse, the blurb on the back celebrates the “diversity of Muslim communities in the city.” Show me where.

Of course, the diversity exists in spades. So does the tension between Muslim parents and their daughters. In Berlin earlier this year, a group of young Muslim women — not a hijabi among them! — approached me to express gratitude that I’d posted an Islamic defense of inter-faith marriage.

Because this document is written by an imam, they can use it to legitimately challenge parents and clerics who want to force girls into loveless marriages with other Muslims. These young women told me that the Islamic inter-faith marriage defense is being downloaded by their friends. It’s also being used by German social services to counsel distraught Muslim girls.

For all of my readers who feel powerless to help another Aqsa Parvez, I have simple advice: Listen to her. Then come to this website for resources in various languages. Be not afraid of anything except complacency.

Meanwhile, may Aqsa rest in peace. Finally.

Last edited by james t kirk; 12-21-2007 at 09:55 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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