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Old 12-11-2007, 06:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Muslim teenage girl killed by father

Clash Over Religious Garb May Be Behind Attack On Teen
Tuesday December 11, 2007
CityNews.ca Staff

She wanted to be more Western.

He wanted her to be more traditional.

And that clash of cultures may have been what led a father to allegedly choke his daughter and leave her in very grave condition in hospital on Monday. Police are saying very little about what happened in a home on normally quiet Longhorn Trail in the Eglinton and Hurontario area of Mississauga. But the friends of 16-year-old Aqsa Parvez claim she was desperately trying to pull away from the strict traditions of her devout Muslim family.

And they contend that led to the attack that's left her near death. The sad story began just before 8am when a man called police to report he'd murdered his daughter. Authorities found the girl clinging to life and rushed her to hospital. She'd reportedly been choked into unconsciousness.

Her father, identified as 57-year-old cab driver Muhammad Parvez, was taken into custody at the scene. Students at Applewood Heights Secondary School, which the victim attended, tell of a troubled family life, with the teen refusing to wear the traditional head covering hijab, and preferring more Western-style clothing.

They say she'd moved out and was staying with a friend, and may have gone back to get her things when the confrontation began. "She's kind of rebellious a bit," confirms classmate Heather Bottecher. "She's supposed to wear the hijab. But she doesn't usually wear it. And she usually wears short sleeves when you're supposed to wear long sleeves. And she wears, like, low cut shirts and stuff like that."

"We noticed a drastic change in her appearance," another friend named Shianne Phillips recalls. "Like, she used to dress religiously. Now she's dressing in, like, more causal clothing, like other people."

There are reports the teen would wear the special garb to school then change when she got there to fool her father.

Parvez makes his first court appearance on the attempted murder allegation on Tuesday, but that charge could be upgraded if his daughter dies. Relatives are expected to make the difficult choice about donating her organs if that terrible tragedy happens.

-----------------------------------


They just reported a few minutes ago that the girl died this morning.

This story just completely and totally angers me. I live just a few miles from where this happened and over the last 15 years a HUGE amount of Muslim immigrants have moved into my city. There is so many now that my daughter is one of only two white kids in her class. When I went to school it was closer to half with the other half being a mixture of other cultures.

I don't mean to come across as racist here, this city has always been very multicultural and I truly think that was a great thing, the pendulum is now swinging waaay far to the other side.

When I drive around my area I am seeing just as many women in Hijab's and even Burka's as not. They for the most part seem to keep to themselves are do not try and be freindly with their non-muslim neighbors. The sense of community drops all the time.

My problem with all of this is not the ethnicity of new immigrants, if they are coming to make a better life for themselves then I wish them all of the luck in the world, but for fucks sakes we are in Canada. You need to allow your family to adapt, your children to be who they want to be.

This type of tradegy has happened before and will happen again and it pisses me off.

My arguements here are not fluid and are disjointed. I needed to rant.
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Last edited by Daval; 12-11-2007 at 06:29 AM..
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Welcome to the rewards of promoting multiculturalism and rejecting the melting pot concepts of immigration.

They come to nations for a better life, while bringing the culture that made life in their lands suck to begin with.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I just heard a talk radio debate between two muslims (hosted by John Oakley on 640 AM) who were talking about this case.

The woman was supporting the father's actions as the daughter was disobeying her father while under the age of majority (19 yrs old) and she said that wearing the hijab was mandated by the Koran. She did go on to say that the father may have gone a little overboard in his actions. But this was earlier this morning before the poor girl had passed away.

The man who was debating her, also a Muslim, was appalled at the way the Koran was being interpreted, and stated that the original intent for modesty in the Koran says that a woman must keep her breasts covered. Never a mention of the face or head. He appealed to the woman's intellect in trying put forth his position that the Koran is being mis-interpreted, or at the very least there is little agreement on various aspects of the scriptures.

The entire thing is sad to see. Now the girl is dead, and the father is in jail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Welcome to the rewards of promoting multiculturalism and rejecting the melting pot concepts of immigration.

They come to nations for a better life, while bringing the culture that made life in their lands suck to begin with.

hmmm. I view this statement as simplistic (sorry, no offense). I have lived in the multicultural pluralism of Toronto for most of my life and deliberately chose to send my (admittedly polyglot) children to a downtown school that has an even mixture of blend of cultures (Tamil, Cantonese, English, German, Italian, Vietnamese, Pakistani & Indian) and religions. This is instead of an area, closer to my home, which is focused in a singular culture (my area would be predominately Italian, Greek or Philipino depending on the school).

They have Muslim friends who may have been born, or who's parents are from Pakistan, Hindu from Sri Lanka, Buddhist from Thailand, Catholic from India, Protestant from France plus the normal mainstream Canadian United Church or RC.

What I think is the trend that is disturbing is the establishment of what people are calling "ethnoburbs" which is where there is a huge agglomeration of one type of cultural community taking over a large area of town. For example (locals know these areas): Chinese in Markham, Pakistani/Bengali in Brampton, Tamils in Scarborough or St James Town and to a lesser extent, Jamaican in North York (jane/finch).

To me, this isn't multiculturalism. it's a form of ghettoization, where there is a lack of mixing, of the salad that is multiculturalism. So we get a homogenous soup, an island of the old world that is a departure from the basic cultural norm of the nation, and no attempt is made to integrate which is a basic tenet of multiculturalism.

The end result are cases where the immigrants from the old world try to keep the old world "happening" in the new world to such an extent, that they lose sight of the need to integrate.

Last edited by Leto; 12-11-2007 at 06:54 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:07 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
What I think is the trend that is disturbing is the establishment of what people are calling "ethnoburbs" which is where there is a huge agglomeration of one type of cultural community taking over a large area of town. For example (locals know these areas): Chinese in Markham, Pakistani/Bengali in Brampton, Tamils in Scarborough or St James Town and to a lesser extent, Jamaican in North York (jane/finch).

To me, this isn't multiculturalism. it's a form of ghettoization, where there is a lack of mixing, of the salad that is multiculturalism. So we get a homogenous soup, an island of the old world that is a departure from the basic cultural norm of the nation, and no attempt is made to integrate which is a basic tenet of multiculturalism.

The end result are cases where the immigrants from the old world try to keep the old world "happening" in the new world to such an extent, that they lose sight of the need to integrate.
It isn't much different than the immigration spurts of America in the 1700's and 1800s. People ghettoized their neighborhoods, but there was a fundamental mindset difference wherein the culture was shed as the immigrants wanted to their children to have a better life from their homelands.

This is what Ustwo is refferring to as I understand what he wrote.
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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ethnoburbs...thats a new one...
the first generation hardly ever integrates. its their kids or maybe the grandkids that integrate.
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Here we go again. Not gonna waste my breath on this one.

Please see the umpteen other threads on immigration...
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:26 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
hmmm. I view this statement as simplistic (sorry, no offense).
It was two lines so I hope no one was expecting deep.

Though while as an ideal multiculturalism would be taking the best aspects of each culture and sort of blending it in, the reality of it has been isolation and conflict as practiced as of late. Pretty much since people started talking about multiculturalism as an excuse for said isolation.

My feeling for the US at least, is if you come here, thats fine, but ONLY if you accept the culture, life style, and morals. IF you want to bring your crap here and just get a better job, get the fuck out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

This is what Ustwo is refferring to as I understand what he wrote.
Yep
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Last edited by Ustwo; 12-11-2007 at 07:27 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:17 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
My feeling for the US at least, is if you come here, thats fine, but ONLY if you accept the culture, life style, and morals. IF you want to bring your crap here and just get a better job, get the fuck out.
Well, that's the U.S. For the time being, anyway. Actually, no. It isn't, really. But, whatever.

If Canada maintained its culture, lifestyle, and morals, we'd still be British and French colonials hating one another. Now, we simply hate one another while bringing more "crap" into the mix. Because you know what? We've been bringing our "crap" over here since the start. That's the New World. I'd hate to see the U.S. get left behind in the next cultural revolution. I'd hate to see them stagnate like so many Third World Muslim countries.


Men killing women isn't a new problem. Religion is a catalyst, sure, but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is a bit ignorant. Multiculturalism has been working for decades. People can feel isolated in society even if their family has been around for generations. There are far too many success stories to uniformly criticize a phenomenon that isn't going away anyway.
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fotzlid
the first generation hardly ever integrates. its their kids or maybe the grandkids that integrate.
I agree with this - as long as opportunity exists for the next generation they tend to blend in pretty well with the dominant culture. If people do remain ghettoized, then assimilation is less likely.

My neighbours are from Pakistan - they maintain a few of the traditions for sure, but the mother and the daughter, while they wouldn't be caught dead wearing a track suit with the word "juicy" written across the ass, also no longer wear hijabs except to more formal occasions (i.e., weddings, etc).
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:59 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Well, that's the U.S. For the time being, anyway. Actually, no. It isn't, really. But, whatever.

If Canada maintained its culture, lifestyle, and morals, we'd still be British and French colonials hating one another. Now, we simply hate one another while bringing more "crap" into the mix. Because you know what? We've been bringing our "crap" over here since the start. That's the New World. I'd hate to see the U.S. get left behind in the next cultural revolution. I'd hate to see them stagnate like so many Third World Muslim countries.


Men killing women isn't a new problem. Religion is a catalyst, sure, but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is a bit ignorant. Multiculturalism has been working for decades. People can feel isolated in society even if their family has been around for generations. There are far too many success stories to uniformly criticize a phenomenon that isn't going away anyway.
Yea whatever, its working just smashing in Europe right now, ask the French, and I can't wait for that sort of multiculturalism here. Riots and child strangling for all.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:03 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't believe the US would "stagnate" or get "left behind" but frankly, having seen first hand what a native, impoverished and ignorant muslim culture is like, I don't want it in my country in any form whatsoever. So here comes Xeph's take on this issue.

First of all, the mistreatment of women is blatant and vast. The Pashto people, who make up the majority of Afghans, have a strict culture built on top of Islam. Women cannot wear hijabs, but rather must wear full burkhas after puberty. If they are caught going outside without one, for ANY reason (and I mean ANY) they can be and almost always are shot dead by the husband or father. For the patriarch of the family to not do so would dishonor his entire family and another male family member would then be required to kill her. After having talked to guards and terps who have a good grasp on Western culture (as best as they can be expected to) and having them tell us pointedly that they would, in fact, kill their wives for doing so, it was a real eye-opener.

In fact, their disdain for the female gender often leads some tribal subgroups to take girl babies form the mother's womb to the woods to die immediately. They just don't want girls. Women and girls of all ages are abused, mistreated and killed for no good reason (by any western standard at least).

We've been told specifically by Afghans that we work with that even the best relationships allow them only to "tolerate" us infidels. That because we do not believe the teachings of the Prophet Muhammed, we are damned things and don't truly deserve this life. WTF? And those are GOOD relations.

On the note of interpretation, keep this in mind. It is in violation of Islamic Law to translate the Koran (not that it isn't done). So, in the middle east and eastern asia, most people cannot read the Arabic scripts. First, most of the people are simply illiterate, even in their own tongue. Also, despite the fact that most of these cultures use langauges with the Arabic script the language itself is quite different (like German and English, for instance). So, even those that can read their own language still often cannot read the Koran. This prevents any discovery. In the mosques and madrasas people are only taught portions of the Koran often misinterpreted or purposefully altered to suit the conceptual beliefs of the talib (teacher). Thus most Muslims in this part of the world are not very well educated in their own religion, but they are almost always devout to the point of being zealots. Sound like a recipe for disaster? Well, it is. Obviously, look at the state of this region.

Now, let's extrapolate a bit more and look at the culture and modernization of most primarily Muslim countries. These countries are in the birthplace of modern man. All scientific and historical evidence points to the middle east being where recorded history of humanity began. They've been moving forward for THOUSANDS of years. The West, and especially North American countries have been around for only HUNDREDS of years. Yet we have moved forward far more rapidly than the Muslim countries. Why? Because they do not DESIRE a forward movement culturally. That doesn't mesh well in a melting pot society like the US.

In the end, it's not a matter of racism of xenophobia, but rather an oil and water scenario. If they are willing to educate themselves about their own religion and move forward into the 21st century, I don't care WHERE they live. If they want to beat their women to death (sometimes even stone them) or choke them to death for not following a TRULY misinterpreted portion of their religion, they can all burn in hell. *shrug*
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
My feeling for the US at least, is if you come here, thats fine, but ONLY if you accept the culture, life style, and morals. IF you want to bring your crap here and just get a better job, get the fuck out.
Exactly which culture, lifestyle and morals are you talking about? The thing about the US is that it reinvents itself every 20-40 years. Should we encourage all new imigrants to join the Klan? That's part of the culture, lifestyle and morals of the US. How about if we encourage them to riot when a jury finds someone not guilty that they think is? That's part of the culture, lifestyle and morals too. How about if they import tons of cocaine and get in gun battles with the police? Or join the Temperance Union?

Oh wait, you meant YOUR culture, lifestyle and morals, which I suppose would include a rejection of monogamy and toeing the Republican line. Does that mean that I have to leave too?

And in the interests of "fair and balanced":

Quote:
Man pleads guilty; first had sex with daughter when she was 11

A Jonesborough, Tenn., man who fathered his own grandchild after repeatedly raping his daughter will spend the next 30 years behind bars.

Marshall Dean Minckler Jr., 35, pleaded guilty Monday in Knox County Criminal Court to two counts of child rape for the repeated molestation of his daughter, beginning when she was just 11 years old and culminating with the birth of her father's child when she was 13.

Judge Richard Baumgartner, who returned to the bench Wednesday after a hospitalization last week for acute pancreatitis, sentenced Minckler to a 30-year prison term. He must serve at least 25 years before he could become eligible for parole. He will spend a lifetime under supervision and must register as a sex offender.

The victim, who is now 17 and lives in another state, does not bear Minckler's surname, and her mother did not object to the public identification of Minckler.

Assistant District Attorney General Charme Knight said at Monday's hearing that Minckler began his victimization of his daughter with crude comments and inappropriate behavior.

"The defendant would ask her to flash her breasts and would tell her she looked good," Knight said. "He would walk in on her when she was taking a shower."

Later, the girl would awaken to find her father in her room, fondling her, Knight said.

"She would testify this behavior progressed," Knight said.

Beginning in the fall of 2002, Minckler repeatedly raped his daughter and guaranteed her silence with threats to tell relatives the girl was a willing participant, according to Knight.

The girl became pregnant in 2003.

"She delivered a baby when she was 13 years old," Knight said.

It's not clear when authorities discovered the molestation. At some point, a paternity test was conducted, and the baby was determined to be the offspring of Minckler. The child, now a toddler, has severe abnormalities, according to court records.

At Monday's hearing, Minckler, since remarried, was unrepentant.

"I understand I'll be in jail for a long time," he said when asked if he understood the charges to which he was confessing.

At Minckler's request, Assistant Public Defender Bob Edwards told the judge, "Much of what has been summarized by the state he denies, but Mr. Minckler acknowledges he fathered the child."
http://knoxnews.com/news/2007/dec/11...in-child-rape/

Christians and Muslims both have their fair share of sick fucks.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:15 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Oh wait, you meant YOUR culture, lifestyle and morals, which I suppose would include a rejection of monogamy and toeing the Republican line. Does that mean that I have to leave too?
Yes my politics must be adapted or you will be kicked out, and now send your wife over.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I almost said "deport the bastard!" but then I realized that he'd probably be praised for his actions in his homeland. That's fucked up. I hope they nail him for 1st degree murder and he spends the rest of his miserable existence in jail.

If you live in MY country, you follow MY country's laws. Your religion and personal beliefs be damned if they conflict.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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http://knoxnews.com/news/2007/dec/11...in-child-rape/

Christians and Muslims both have their fair share of sick fucks.
The difference is that we CALL ours sick fucks, but many of them would agree with his actions. It wouldn't even be an issue. See the above posts.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Exactly which culture, lifestyle and morals are you talking about? The thing about the US is that it reinvents itself every 20-40 years. Should we encourage all new imigrants to join the Klan? That's part of the culture, lifestyle and morals of the US. How about if we encourage them to riot when a jury finds someone not guilty that they think is? That's part of the culture, lifestyle and morals too. How about if they import tons of cocaine and get in gun battles with the police? Or join the Temperance Union?

Oh wait, you meant YOUR culture, lifestyle and morals, which I suppose would include a rejection of monogamy and toeing the Republican line. Does that mean that I have to leave too?

And in the interests of "fair and balanced":

Christians and Muslims both have their fair share of sick fucks.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with the angle of your post. Yes, there are sick, useless fucks from every race, culture and religion. There are also wonderful and amazing people form every race, culture and religion. However, there are certain stereotypical behaviors that are, as I always say, stereotypes for a reason. Are there Muslim men who do not disallow their wives from leaving the house in a halter top and mini skirt? Sure there are. Unfortunately for those individuals, the majority of the people that share their belief system would sooner stone their wives than not for such an infraction. Where are most Muslims? The Middle East and northern Africa. Where is the largest amount of strife in the world? Oh, those same two regions. Now, I'm one to usually preach correlation != causation, so let's look into it more deeply. Those regions of the world also have the highest and most regular rates of genocide, illiteracy, warlordism (I hate Bush too, but it's not quite the same), gender-related crimes and mistreatment and hate-related crimes against others of the same base religion (Islam) as well as others of slightly varying ethnicity.

You wanna talk about the Klan? Long before American plantation owners enslaved black African natives, long before Islam or even Christianity were religions, people of that particular region of the world were far more full of hate than even the biggest douchebag American racist. Enslaving ENTIRE population or committing outright mass genocide against other tribes of the same race. Oh, and it still happens today.

So, moving forward with my above post, it's probably not Islam that is at the root. It's the cultures in which Islam proliferates. Many of them have not changed much for so many generations it's not comprehensible to most Westerners. Again, using the Pashtuns as an example, there are blood feuds that are HUNDREDS of years old. A man who killed another man in 1607 can still cause bloodshed today, right this very minute, in the name of family honor.

Look at Somalia. While the ARPCT seems to be at least somewhat sane, they are fighting other tribes of their own people, The Islamic Courts Union, who want to instill Sharia law in the country, going all burkha and disallowing things like movies and music and dancing. Did America have a civil war? Sure... but it's hard to draw many similarities to the Somalian Civil War or to the ongoing conflict between Shia and Sunni Muslims in Iraq. There is, in fact, a differing of beliefs between two groups of people from the same region. That's the definition of civil war. Beyond that, the similarities stop. Aside from a rather few incidents, the American Civil War left civilians alone. Or at least it can be said that civilians were not specifically targeted to try to gain support of other civilians using fear and terror as motivators. I'd say that's a rather vast cultural difference. But it happens in Muslim-heavy areas of the world frequently and has for much of history. Again, it happens in Western cultures (the Nazis are the most obvious example) but with far less frequency.

I guess my point is that, in my eyes, from my experience, reading and learning, I am forced to believe that people from regions of the world where Islam proliferates are anti-progress and violently adherent to beliefs they do not fully understand with far greater regularity than people from regions outside of those areas.

Are all Muslims bad people in my eyes? No! But enough of them are, from my first hand experience, to not particularly want those cultures to "blend" with my own. I don't feel this way about Hindus or Jews or Atheists or Agnostics or believers in the Norse Pantheon or other fringe religions. *shrug* And frankly, aside form Judaism, Islam is closest to my own belief system (vaguely Christian) as it is an Abrahamic religion. It's just gone terribly awry.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Wow, Parvez is a complete asshole and should be in prison for breaking the law by murdering his daughter. Nothing else? Moving on....
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:59 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Well, will, that's part of the problem. An alarming number of Muslims that I've personally talked to believe that Islamic Law is above the law of man, and therefore there was no wrongdoing in this situation. *shrug* Hard to pass off such a belief for me. Maybe not so much for others? I dunno...
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:09 AM   #19 (permalink)
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xephrys - I think that you and I agree more than you realize. Beyond my point that there is no common "culture, lifestyle and morals" in the US, I agree that we're talking about a cultural problem, not a religious one. We're talking about cultures that allow this sort of thing, not the religion that serves as the excuse.

As for the largest amount of strife occurring in the Muslim world, I think you've been paying too much attention to the headlines. There are active wars and revolutions going on across Asia and Southern Africa that have nothing to do with Islam. The Maoist rebels in Nepal couldn't care less about burhkas. Neither could most of the sides in the Conglese wars.

There aren't many parts of the world that have spent an entire generation untouched by war. Germany is about to accomplish that, but they're the major power in Europe that will. The US has never done it, and the Middle East is no different.

As far as your claim that there's a higher incidence of "genocide, illiteracy, warlordism gender-related crimes and mistreatment and hate-related crimes against others of the same base religion" in Islamic countries, I think you're confusing politics and religion. When the Ottoman Empire was actually a world power, none of those things happened, at least on a mass level. They had a strong central government, and it worked well. If you look at the Middle East since the Ottoman collapse, you'll see scatterings of weak and weaker governments punctuated with the occassional military strongman. Then compare that to Eastern Asia, South America or even Western Europe and you'll see about the same incidence of these things during times of weakened government. If you really want to turn this into a debate of correlation of genocide, illiteracy and warlordism between the modern Middle East and Feudal Europe, I'm happy to go in that direction, because the data supporting my argument is there. I mean, we can talk about the 100 Year War, the War of the Roses, etc. which all had lots of Christian on Christian warfare goodness along with the occassional genocide (know many Hugonauts? Or Spanish Jews?). But that's a threadjack.

As far as the targeting of civilian populations as a part of warfare, where have you been for the past 70 years? The Allies firebombed Dresden. If we had lost, those responsible would have been convicted of war crimes (assuming the same standards were used). The US targeted Vietnamese civilians on a regular basis. The entire idea behind a nuclear deterent, which was the cornerstone of American defense and foreign policy from roughly 1952 to 1995 was the mutual destruction of both the US and Soviets, military and civilian. Our hands are no dirtier or cleaner than anyone else's. It just makes us all feel better to pretend otherwise.

All that said, I am back at where we started - religion has nothing to do with this argument. It's the culture that matters. Some cultures fear change - look at the news out of Russia in the past couple of days for a fantastic example of that - but that's an unwinnable proposition. All cultures have to adapt at some point or they'll choke themselves out. We're just now starting to see waves of permanent Islamic immigrants to the US. Assimilation is a given eventually, and we've seen it with every single other wave of immigrants that have ever hit our shores. All these arguments have been made for the past 160 years about the Irish, Italians, Indians (dot, not woo-woo obviously), Germans, Jews (both Polish and Russian), Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, French, Sicilians, Mexicans or whatever else.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:12 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Where are most Muslims? The Middle East and northern Africa. Where is the largest amount of strife in the world? Oh, those same two regions.
Demographer checking in for the sake of numbers... interestingly, I looked briefly on Wikipedia for the global distribution of Muslims by country, and the total number of Muslims living in the "Middle East" (including Afghanistan in the ME, even though it's actually in Central Asia) and Africa is a bit less than or equal to the total number of Muslims living in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh alone.

Indonesia, in fact, has a higher absolute number of Muslims living there than any other country in the world. So, out of curiosity, do you also see them as a nation full of strife, at the same level as the countries in the Middle East?
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Well, will, that's part of the problem. An alarming number of Muslims that I've personally talked to believe that Islamic Law is above the law of man, and therefore there was no wrongdoing in this situation. *shrug* Hard to pass off such a belief for me. Maybe not so much for others? I dunno...
A lot of people think the 10 commandments are more important than.... well that's a concern with any fundamentalist, or any crazy person for that matter. I'm sure that Charles Manson has a code he sticks to, but who cares? He broke the law. If you brake the law of the land, you go to jail. Neither god nor allah can prevent that.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:40 AM   #22 (permalink)
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A lot of people think the 10 commandments are more important than.... well that's a concern with any fundamentalist, or any crazy person for that matter. I'm sure that Charles Manson has a code he sticks to, but who cares? He broke the law. If you brake the law of the land, you go to jail. Neither god nor allah can prevent that.
Ya, but you still find Christians who criticize Christianity and even raise question about existance of Jesus ! And write novels on it..
Tell me about few Muslim who have done it and is not given death penalty.

I hate it because they have such a low tolerance.

Not existance of self-criticism has resulted into far more problems and justifying your actions on book written centuries ago does not fit into logic.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:41 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Demographer checking in for the sake of numbers... interestingly, I looked briefly on Wikipedia for the global distribution of Muslims by country, and the total number of Muslims living in the "Middle East" (including Afghanistan in the ME, even though it's actually in Central Asia) and Africa is a bit less than or equal to the total number of Muslims living in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh alone.

Indonesia, in fact, has a higher absolute number of Muslims living there than any other country in the world. So, out of curiosity, do you also see them as a nation full of strife, at the same level as the countries in the Middle East?
Interesting thing about demographics in countries such as Afghanistan (or Pakistan or many of the "stans" or Somalia) is that demographics that I've seen don't take into account the large number of the populace that simply doesn't show up. Being in that field yourself, I wonder how accurate you think current CIA data is on the population of Afghanistan... say on the CIA World Factbook. What is the margin of error in a country where most people don't know how many people are in the next village over? I wonder if it takes into account the people in villages that I've visited where people had never seen someone that was not Pashtun until our unit arrived there last Spring. How accurate can demographics really be? Obviously I don't know better than the numbers, but I can say firsthand that there are more than a few reason for those numbers to be flawed. Much of western Pakistan is exactly the same, and Pakistan is a fairly modern country for this region (akin to India). in fact there is a large area of land in the mountains that sits on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan that both and neither actually claim as their own. The people who live there would also staunchly disagree that they are part of either country. The locals call is Waziristan (sp?) for the Waziri tribe that inhabits the area. Think Afghan Gypsies.

I see your point, but I also think there are gross inaccuracies with such statistics in less developed areas of the world.

To more acutely answer your questions...

As for the countries you mention, I generally don't. However, in most of the more eastern asian countries (central and east of central) the Muslims often do not follow Sharia Law and women have rights in accordance with most modern human rights agreements. Genocide happens less frequently, more akin to westenr cultures, and people are mostly treated fairly. There are small, short-term exceptions, but the variance from western cultures is not great.

As my last post mentioned, I conceded that it wasn't likely Islam itself, but many of the cultures that embrace Islam.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:41 AM   #24 (permalink)
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...Now, let's extrapolate a bit more and look at the culture and modernization of most primarily Muslim countries. These countries are in the birthplace of modern man. All scientific and historical evidence points to the middle east being where recorded history of humanity began. They've been moving forward for THOUSANDS of years. The West, and especially North American countries have been around for only HUNDREDS of years. Yet we have moved forward far more rapidly than the Muslim countries. Why? ...

Because the west had the Reformation which interrupted the progression of the non-secular hegemony. Up to then, Western development was heading in the same direction.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:43 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Ya, but you still find Christians who criticize Christianity and even raise question about existance of Jesus ! And write novels on it..
Tell me about few Muslim who have done it and is not given death penalty.
Not all Muslims live in Saudi Arabia. I know VERY westernized Persian Muslims. Actually I know a black guy who is a very liberal Muslim. They get plenty of tolerance from other Muslims because they live in the US, and for the most part, this is an okay place to be an individual thinking Muslim. It's not a good place to go to the airport, though. If you're Muslim, that is.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:46 AM   #26 (permalink)
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As for the countries you mention, I generally don't. However, in most of the more eastern asian countries (central and east of central) the Muslims often do not follow Sharia Law and women have rights in accordance with most modern human rights agreements. Genocide happens less frequently, more akin to westenr cultures, and people are mostly treated fairly. There are small, short-term exceptions, but the variance from western cultures is not great.

As my last post mentioned, I conceded that it wasn't likely Islam itself, but many of the cultures that embrace Islam.
This is very interesting. It would be interesting to explore why there is this cultural difference, and what the motivators are for following Sharia. It demonstrates to the lay person that Islam can work in a civilized manner.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:51 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Not all Muslims live in Saudi Arabia. I know VERY westernized Persian Muslims. Actually I know a black guy who is a very liberal Muslim. They get plenty of tolerance from other Muslims because they live in the US, and for the most part, this is an okay place to be an individual thinking Muslim. It's not a good place to go to the airport, though. If you're Muslim, that is.
They may do different but they do not talk/write about it in public. I don't see any arranging a conference on how the Book is all lies ...
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:52 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Again, my opinion is that this is a corruption of Islam... but the truth is, whatever the middle class appeasers want to say, this corruption is growing in its strength and size... Islam has a big problem with extremism, far greater than any other major cultural or religious group.

The brute responsible should be killed.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:53 AM   #29 (permalink)
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This is very interesting. It would be interesting to explore why there is this cultural difference, and what the motivators are for following Sharia. It demonstrates to the lay person that Islam can work in a civilized manner.
Generally countries wealthier with high amount of industrialisation like Turkey and UAE ..
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:56 AM   #30 (permalink)
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They may do different but they do not talk/write about it in public. I don't see any arranging a conference on how the Book is all lies ...
That's because there are too many Christians in the US for it to be heard. Check out
this this
ignorant piece of blatant bigotry. It's been en vogue for conservatives to hate Islam for the last decade or so, especially because of 9/11.

Not only that, but if there was an important Muslim in the US (for whatever reason), he'd be assassinated tomorrow, and Muslims know that.

Last edited by Willravel; 12-11-2007 at 11:09 AM.. Reason: fixed link
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:58 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Again, my opinion is that this is a corruption of Islam... but the truth is, whatever the middle class appeasers want to say, this corruption is growing in its strength and size... Islam has a big problem with extremism, far greater than any other major cultural or religious group.

The brute responsible should be killed.
I think problems are grave in UK with people becoming hypersensitive like
removing Holocaust from school curriculum ... so it doesnt offend muslims
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1600686.ece
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:59 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Skada, read this article:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...JNoPuNIfx1kQyg
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:59 AM   #33 (permalink)
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See, the daughter was already integrating. She didn't survive integration, but most others do. If you wait one generation, the muslim immigrants' children will probably be just as sociable/community-minded as anyone else in the US.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:01 AM   #34 (permalink)
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See, the daughter was already integrating. She didn't survive integration, but most others do. If you wait one generation, the muslim immigrants' children will probably be just as sociable/community-minded as anyone else in the US.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:02 AM   #35 (permalink)
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That's because there are too many Christians in the US for it to be heard. Check out this ignorant piece of blatant bigotry. It's been en vogue for conservatives to hate Islam for the last decade or so, especially because of 9/11.

Not only that, but if there was an important Muslim in the US (for whatever reason), he'd be assassinated tomorrow, and Muslims know that.
Link didn't worked ...
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:09 AM   #36 (permalink)
 
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I see your point, but I also think there are gross inaccuracies with such statistics in less developed areas of the world.
You won't find disagreement with me on that point. However, population estimates do have to start somewhere, and I don't think the estimates are so grossly inaccurate that they are not useful for discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xepherys
As my last post mentioned, I conceded that it wasn't likely Islam itself, but many of the cultures that embrace Islam.
I can understand where you are coming from on that, though I may not agree with it completely. For me, it is more a matter of political-economy that explains the behavior of those groups of people, not "culture" per se. But yes, not all cultures are healthy, that's clear. How to judge cultural health objectively, however (that is, not with the bias of our own Western context), is a very muddy matter... which is why I am not going to go further into this discussion.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:10 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Indonesia, in fact, has a higher absolute number of Muslims living there than any other country in the world. So, out of curiosity, do you also see them as a nation full of strife, at the same level as the countries in the Middle East?
While in Malaysia, many people were quick to mention the sad state of public safety and government corruption in both Malaysia and Indonesia. The Chinese people there are VERY wary of the Muslims.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:11 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Well it confirms that tolerance is zero in Islamic community. The way it impliments depends upon lot on society. Iran especially is quite economically ahead than many Islamic countries (and is Shia majority)
And their social structure is more like Turkey. Even hijab is not that mandatory.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:16 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Well it confirms that tolerance is zero in Islamic community. The way it impliments depends upon lot on society. Iran especially is quite economically ahead than many Islamic countries (and is Shia majority)
And their social structure is more like Turkey. Even hijab is not that mandatory.
No, it confirms that the Iranian government is having growing pains. It's a strong government that is still very religious, possibly one of the last theocracies. When it eventually changes over to a democracy-esque system, and it will assuming it isn't destroyed by the west, these types of things will continue to be less common.

What one should be paying attention to, though, is that there are protestors in Iran. Tehran is a hotbed for protest and forward thinking. Many may not be aware of it, but there are tons of underground clubs in Tehran, drinking and drug use. These kids, though, will be adults soon. These liberal Muslim kids will be running Iran.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:25 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Not only that, but if there was an important Muslim in the US (for whatever reason), he'd be assassinated tomorrow, and Muslims know that.
You mean like Muhammad Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
No, it confirms that the Iranian government is having growing pains. It's a strong government that is still very religious, possibly one of the last theocracies. When it eventually changes over to a democracy-esque system, and it will assuming it isn't destroyed by the west, these types of things will continue to be less common.

What one should be paying attention to, though, is that there are protestors in Iran. Tehran is a hotbed for protest and forward thinking. Many may not be aware of it, but there are tons of underground clubs in Tehran, drinking and drug use. These kids, though, will be adults soon. These liberal Muslim kids will be running Iran.
Im sorry, but thats completely opposite to what is happening. Iran WAS liberalising 6 or 7 years ago. It has now lurched radically to the right and become radically more religious, and this is a movement which is being lead by the youth.

You are simply stating things which are opposite to reality.
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Last edited by Strange Famous; 12-11-2007 at 11:27 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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