11-21-2007, 01:54 PM | #41 (permalink) |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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Personally, I'm all about the middle ground. I think people have a habit of polarizing issues for the sake of simplicity, when the issues may not themselves be polar. Thus, we end up with one camp saying 'abortion is good!' and another camp saying 'abortion is bad!' with neither side considering that abortion may be good/useful/right in some situations and bad/wrong in others.
Of course, the problem then becomes one of where to draw the line. What constitutes a a 'bad' baby? Is it projected quality of life for the child? For the parents? Projected utility? Some combination of the above? One could argue that a child with Down's syndrome passes all three tests; people with Down's syndrome are perfectly capable of living happy and productive lives. That's not to say that they're no different from you or I; one need only have eyes to see that an argument of that nature is absurd sentimentalism. On the other hand, the question then becomes one of whether it's ethical for the parents to destroy a potential human being due solely to inconvenience. Aborting a baby due to bad cirumstances on the part of the parent is one thing. If I'm in a position where myself and the lady in question are not ready or able to provide a positive environment for a child, that may be considered as an option. On the other hand, aborting a child due to perceived defects within the child itself does carry some potentially heavy implications, namely in what constitutes a defect worthy of abortion. Fortunately it's not a choice I've had to make; I don't want to meet the person who can choose to abort lightly, whatever the reason.
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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
11-21-2007, 01:55 PM | #42 (permalink) | ||
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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Otherwise, you'd be arguing philosophically that it is okay to kill the cells, as they are not human, but feeling practically that it couldn't be aborted, because it had some sort of special meaning (like being human)? EDIT: Quote:
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 11-21-2007 at 01:58 PM.. |
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11-21-2007, 02:01 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
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11-21-2007, 02:10 PM | #44 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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If you really think a child in the womb isn't human yet, for whatever reason, then why should the abortion be anything beyond a simple medical decision? An abortion is the equivalent of mutual masturbation. Of course you can be pro-choice and still love your children, but after they are born, before then they would just be a choice that needs to be made in the first 2 trimesters.
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11-21-2007, 02:13 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
I have eaten the slaw
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I'd also like to point out that when a Down's fetus is aborted, there is often a healthy fetus created afterward that would not have existed. To some extent, refraining from eliminating people with Down's results in preventing those healthy people from being born. These "replacements" probably wouldn't have constituted a distinct community/group within society the way the Down's people would have, but that doesn't make denying their presence in society any less serious than eliminating those with Down's.
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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you. |
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11-21-2007, 02:14 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Its not like you can partially abort. The only grey is in the sophistry played by the proponents. I'll add I am pro-choice, but I don't play games about it. I think you are killing human life, but if you chose an abortion then perhaps your DNA is best left out of the gene pool. None of this 'I'd never consider and abortion myself but I support a womans right to choose' bullshit most politicians who support it spew.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-21-2007, 02:54 PM | #47 (permalink) | |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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11-21-2007, 03:10 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Sort of like how I don't like carrots.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-21-2007, 03:26 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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And a pro-carrotter would force you to eat them. Pro-choicer couldn't care less if you ate'em or not. |
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11-21-2007, 03:27 PM | #50 (permalink) |
Knight of the Old Republic
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Ok so everyone expects me to have a kid with DS to talk about it or have experience dealing with people who have DS.
Oh wait I do have experience with DS. My friend's sister has DS. I watched his sister nearly ruin his childhood. I watched the sister with DS totally ruin the older sister's childhood. Want to go out to eat with friends? Too bad, stay home with DS sister. Want to go shopping? Too bad, need to save money for meds for DS sister. Want to move out when you're 18? Too bad, stay at home working part-time so there's someone to watch the DS sister. Want to go out in public? Too bad, the DS sister can't act correctly in public. Need money? Ok, so get a job! Whoops, can't work but part-time because the DS sister needs 24/7 care. The DS sister is an adult now and has the mind of a 3-year old (not exaggerating). DS can and will have a negative impact on a family regardless of love and affection for a sibling or child. I lived with this family multiple times and saw how the DS sister affected them. |
11-21-2007, 04:14 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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11-21-2007, 04:19 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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Oh, I'm not that selfless. *slams the Abort button* |
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11-21-2007, 04:37 PM | #53 (permalink) | |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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A childhood playmate of mine was retarded and while he hung out with all of us on the street, including his older brother, it was his mom who took care of him, not the 4 other siblings. Hell, we didn't even know David had anything wrong with him until my mom said he had. He was just another kid in the bunch to us. |
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11-22-2007, 07:22 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Browncoat
Location: California
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Personally, I find the abortion of healthy children to be much more unethical than the abortion of disabled children.
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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek |
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11-22-2007, 08:22 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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11-22-2007, 09:52 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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The selection you mention isn't eugenics as it is commonly known.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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11-22-2007, 09:58 PM | #58 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Oh, wouldn't it be like:
Natural selection + modern (non-survival-based) society/culture's ever-changing desires = pseudoeugenics. Semantic conflict applies to the bingo'd post above but I did think it was a useful point in that what is "most fit to reproduce" has changed from quantifiable physical superiority to completely trivial details like hair color and bust size. Just ask the average college guy what he wants to stick his wang in for the answer. Social anthropology in action. It was already stated that natural selection doesn't play much of a part anymore. Any retarded 400 pound couch anchor can make babies and due to all the wonderful advances in technology and government... like megamarts and minivans and MySpace... the meek have indeed inherited the Earth. Not right or wrong, of course. Just how it is, I suppose. ... Humility / Ego: I'd imagine a lot of people would be in favor of ridding the world of defective human beings... as long as it isn't someone they know or their own creation. ... Genetics: Take one for the team. Last edited by Plan9; 11-22-2007 at 10:09 PM.. |
11-23-2007, 01:18 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
Browncoat
Location: California
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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek |
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11-23-2007, 03:41 PM | #60 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I see your point.
* * * * * And I wouldn't want to rid the world of imperfect human beings, considering that some of history's greatest doers and thinkers were "flawed" somehow.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
11-23-2007, 04:13 PM | #62 (permalink) | |
Browncoat
Location: California
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__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek |
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11-23-2007, 06:29 PM | #63 (permalink) |
My future is coming on
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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To the point of the OP, I don't think it's unethical to require this test because of the potential conundrum for the parents. If it's positive, the parents can make an informed choice instead of being blindsided. If you know that you'd keep the kid even if it had DS, then what's the problem? I do think it's unethical to require the test because amniocentesis is not without risk, and the mother should have the option to decline. If it was just a simple saliva test or something, I wouldn't think it was unethical to require it at all. Arbitrary, perhaps...do they also have to test for cystic fibrosis, fragile X, etc?
I think there's a line to be drawn for each person/couple - disorders they'd be able to live with vs....not. I personally would not want to raise a kid with Down's. But I think everyone's entitled to make their own choice about that. In my world, the more information the better. But that's me.
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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France Last edited by lurkette; 11-23-2007 at 06:32 PM.. |
11-23-2007, 07:33 PM | #64 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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prenatal, syndrome, testing |
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