black people need to lighten up
 

on the news i saw a story about a woman who decorated her house for halloween with a monster hanging out front. the naacp and a local reverand claimed it was racist because the "ghoul" had dark skin and it suggested hanging black people. i tried to find the story by googling it and apparently there was more than one case of this.

now, c'mon black people. not all white people are racist. quit looking to be offended, stop being paranoid. it's friggin halloween. ok, if it wasn't halloween and there was a dark skinned dummy haning, yeah, you have something. if it is halloween and the "hanging ghoul" had an afro and clearly resembled a black person, then yeah, it's racist.

i know there is still racism going on in parts of the us. i know there are racists in every town (both white and black) but, how about instead of jumping on the "you are a racist" platform, you look at the circumstance, use some deductive reasoning, and then determine if the dummy hanging is a racist symbol or just an attempt at being spooky.

oh, here is a link to one of the stories. i'm not sure this is the one i saw on the news...

http://www.theheraldbulletin.com/loc...280191707.html

[edit] this is the story here, found it

http://www.newstimes.com/news/ci_7258153

I don't know the specifics of the story, but it sounds like it's not "black people", rather it is the NAACP and a local reverend.

black people need to lighten up

:orly:

:lol:

There is a whole sub-group who would have an empty hand if they couldn't keep playing the race card. Its best to just ignore them and mock them.

i over generalized, but the local reverend and the naacp members were black, so they are the "black people" i'm talking about.

And you want someone to actually take this post seriously?... :orly: Wow. How about *you* not assume that "black people" (all of them, apparently) are looking to be offended and are paranoid, and are incapable of using deductive reasoning? Maybe instead, just state exactly what the facts are, which is that a particular group/individual are acting in that manner, and not "all black people?" Amazing logic there.

You posted this while I was posting... Yeah, that's beyond excuse, sorry. Especially when you are telling "black people" to calm down and not "over-generalize" about white people being racist. :expressionless:

i'm sorry, did i offend you? you seemed to get awfully steamed quickly. it seems you immediatly assumed i was talking to every black person in america (which i wasn't) and i belive black people are incapable of using deductive reasoning (which i don't).

and this is what i'm talking about.

see...there is no difference between "black people" and "white" people. none. all humans. but there are many on both sides who WANT, desperately crave, there to be a difference, and take every opportunity to show how the "other side" is treating this imagined difference. normally i ignore this, but when it affects halloween, then i get upset.

But I'm a starbelly sneetch!

ok, we are all humans, the same, EXCEPT for crompsin.

I think that would have been a much better thread name. "The NAACP and this minister need to lighten up". I'd agree. It's oversensitivity, imho.

My family was enslaved by Romans a while back, but the thing is that people of german decent don't have to worry about a glass ceiling anymore. Or really ever. They don't have to worry about being more likely to be in poverty or in prison because of their ethnicity. I've only once been treated in a racist manner, and it was a result of what I could clearly see was resentment from being the victim of racism all his life. Let's just be honest: we're not all equal yet. We're getting there, and a lot of wonderful people out there are helping, but we're not there yet. So for now, I'm cool with a little oversensitivity. If my halloween decorations were offending people, which is not my intention, I'd give them the benefit of explaining my intention (scaring helpless children). If they were still offended, I'd take it down. I hardly think it's worth it to have a battle of halloween decorations.

Word, Will.

Squeeb, I get angry pretty fast when people make really huge, sweeping generalizations without realizing how powerful their words really are. I mean, it almost seemed like your title assumed that only white people visit this forum, since your title (and OP) did not leave any room for "black people" to stand out as individuals. You say this... ... but what else was I to assume, given the words you used? What else can I go on, other than what you yourself put forth in words? You very clearly said "black people," without exception, until someone pointed it out to you a few posts later.

I think your thread was titled improperly, as well.

And it's not as if the recent 'noose incidents' in the news and racial tensions in this town (which are mentioned in the article) have nothing to do with it.

I think some white people over-react to the over-reactions of some black people.

That might be a better thread title.

I'm an anthropologist, okay... I have argued till I was blue in the face, both here and IRL, that race is a cultural construction based on phenotypical differences based on clines. Race is not real, in the biological sense. However, it is VERY real in a socio-cultural sense, and that is where this is a problem. You're right that there is no difference between black and white people... but the problem is that they are *still* treated very differently. That's not a figment of anyone's imagination. And unfortunately, it's a lot easier to say "I don't see any differences" when you're in the majority. It's not an imagined difference, not yet. I wish it were, believe me... very much. (Or, AKA... "what Will said earlier")

White people need to lighten the fuck up...



Do something that can be considered racist and people will think you're racist. When someone points it out to you. Don't get all up in arms. We get it. You don't want everyone to know that you're actually racist... on the inside. You're the type of person that looks around the room at a nice restaurant and says "Wow, there's a black couple over there... I bet they feel out of place."

You also get surprised when you see a white person working the fryer at McDonald's. You think to yourself, "Hmm... I wonder why they didn't go to college?"

I think after the incident in Jena and so on, the country is very sensitive to this sort of thing. Recently, a student at our university led an effort to "black out Reser" (our stadium) during a football game by encouraging students to paint themselves black. The student paper printed an article about it three days before the game, yet no one made the connection to blackface until after the fact. I can't say I blame them for not making the connection; we've done such a good job of removing that particular cultural reference that a lot of people my age have no idea what blackface is. I should also note that the vice-provost of student affairs--a black man--approved of the Black Out Reser campaign. It didn't occur to him either. I think this is a case of oversensitivity.

I'm pretty sure it's going to blow up in another couple of weeks when the nooses start showing up. You see, a traditional symbol of the Civil War game between Oregon State and the University of Oregon is the opposing school's mascot hanging by a noose. Ducks and Beavers all over Oregon are hung by nooses prior to the game. Perhaps it won't happen this year, with the sensitivity to the noose.

We're not all equal yet, but I think people are trying to see racial overtones where there are none.

The title of this forum is really off, and while I think there were some over-reactions in the situation, I wouldn't say the NAACP was that off. I didn't get to see a picture of the ghoul, what if it did in fact look like a black person hanging?

I may be over-reacting like the NAACP, but I think it's completely wrong that there's "Terrorist" or Muslim masks for people to wear on Halloween that look like they're mocking them, or making fun of them.

I agree that the NAACP and the reverend involved in this issue are trying to see racial overtones where there *may be* none. I don't like that brand of oversensitivity any more than you (or the OP) do.

I still see no reason to address "black people" as one unit that needs to "lighten up." If I had received a paper in my anthropology intro course with that title and those terms... yes, I would feel justified in taking that student to the cleaners. I would be derelict in my job as an anthropologist and educator if I did not address that kind of writing directly. The fact that this is a public forum does not really change my reaction.

How about "everyone needs to lighten the fuck up"? People will always see whatever they want to see. If the ghoul was meant to be racist then it was meant to be racist. While it's not in agreement with me, it's well within that person's right to be one. If it's not, then the reverand and NAACP should have just asked the person what it was. Better yet, they should have asked before making a big stink out of it.

People are always looking to start some stupid shit. Seriously, just let people live their lives and worry about yourself.. it's easier that way.

Chopper says: HTFU!



Harden the fuck up!

Let people show how they really are. If they are meaning to be insensitive pricks let that show for the what it is. But to sit there and take people to task for things that they have the right to do so is just absurd.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8739/evilevilwy7.jpg

Yep, some people need to lighten up.

"decorated her house for halloween with a monster hanging out front"

If the "monster" looked like a black man it is in terrible taste. Any day of the year.

See the picture above.

Huh, funny that the 2nd article has a totally different story and picture (and this one looks pretty bad to me) than the one you posted a picture from, at least the one I am seeing... and the article says "As a result of the complaints, the Mounajed and Cervero on Sunday applied some white paint to the dummy's head - but at that point the furor had grown." So clearly, the original hanging man was not made to look white, if they had to paint it...
http://www.newstimes.com/portlet/art...3&startImage=1

You know, I'd love to apply this in several areas of my life, and probably even in the case of this Halloween decoration thing, if I knew more about it.

But not when it comes to the use of language to classify an entire group of people as being "this way." I'd answer to anyone else going apeshit on me, too, if I was writing like that... in fact, I'd hope they would. As an educated person/academic especially (I'm glad to see Watson has retired for the same reason, as roachboy pointed out in another thread), but also as an educator, hell, a human being... no, it's unacceptable to me. And I don't need to be "serene" about that one.

Well my statement was directed to the actual story here.. not the misuse of language..

Next time I see a skeleton hanging i'm going to yell racism since its a white guy hanging!

i agree with abaya for the most part.

i dont see the basis for any--any---of the "toughen up" or "harden the fuck up" comments to the thread.

ustwo's comments are, of course, off the edge somewhere....

it is apparently something of a badge of honor in rightwing land, the ability to be a clod (laughing at people who see racism as a problem? how does that work?) and be jolly about being a clod at the same time.

its like chewing gum and waving at a passing zeppelin, i suppose.

"hullo there zeppelin. i am doing two things at once."

because of course what matters in a complex world is what you are doing. and it is obvious that any given group of zeppelin passengers only books their flight so they can check out what you are doing from the air.

so what really matters about this situation in ct is:

how does it effect me?
will it disrupt my costume choices?
does it mean i cant trick or treat in black face?
does it mean that i cant make a faux-lynching part of my "scary" household decorations?

well, if this sort of thing causes you to be at all self-conscious about halloween, then the conclusion is obvious: you are the ones really affected by all this. *you* are the real victims--and the history of racism in america and the responses that folk might have to it matter only to the extent that they fuck with your enjoyment of halloween.

from such enlightened viewpoints come threads like this.

way to go.

Okay, good to know.

Rekna... :orly:

any day except for halloween. then, no matter what it looks like, it's a monster. not a black or white or any color man. monsters come in all colors.


as for the title of the thread, i like it. it is an "over the top" generalization that i assumed (wrongly) most people would see the sarcasm in, and attract them enough to read the post and comment. i rarely, if ever, expect to or want to be taken seriously, i just like starting threads and making people talk, occasionally entertaining them with stupidity. the fact that i, *me*, someone with no authority, a nobody, can cause such emotion by typing a few words is incredible. if i typed "the world is going to end next week" as a title for something to do with an end of the world cult, i doubt anyone would prepare to die (don't worry, as far as i know, the world will not end next week). it's kinda neat to see everyone's reaction.

I find it odd that a white ghoul can be hung but not a black one. I hate all racism, and it goes both ways. I find that people are so concerned with it now that it goes to extremes. Anything can be done to a white person and its always okay, but if anything happens involving ANYONE of any other culture than its racism, and that in itself is racism.
This post might even be considered racist. But me personally, I hate everyone equally, and love everyone equally. I don't care where you come from, if you are a fucker to me then you are a fucker, if you are nice then you are nice, easy as that. I have friends that are Muslims, Indians, black skinned straight from Africa, black people who have never been outside of north America, Filipinos.
I can't stand people who point fingers simply because someone looks a little different or believes in a different religion. AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

Gee, glad you're entertained.

FWIW, I pretty much take everything that people write here seriously, until proven not-serious (or posted in Nonsense or Humor, obviously). It's my SOP. I'd much rather err in that direction than the other way.

And I still don't think your title it's a joking matter, even if you intended it that way (which I don't particularly believe, but whatever).

I don't think anyone here is saying that.

did you actually look at the first story (which is the picture Ustwo posted), they look pretty white to me....and people still had a stroke about it

A proper way to do it would have been to make the monster Asian.

Then who would have come to his rescue?

Yes I did. But stuff like this is always going to happen. It doesn't matter what is done, someone will find something to complain about.

NAAAP?

All you fucking jews need to knock this shit off.

then I dont understand what you said right here

Thanks.. I needed a good laugh :lol:

Thats the picture that came up while I was searching, my guess is it was a stock photo that had nothing to do with this.

Hmmm, interesting responses. How about this instead... who the hell cares? If someone is racist, let them be racist. Everyone is intolerant of some subgroup of people. I myself hate stupid people. Passionately! If you hate blacks, or whites, or asians, good for you. If you hate women or men or children, good for you!!! If you hate athletes or models or actors, friggin' awesome!

Why is is that hate is such a horrible thing? It's part of human nature. Sure, it's a darker, bad part, but it's still a part.

Its the picture in the first article posted in the OP

Well, I'm all for free-hatin', you know (really, I am... I hate lots of people, just ask ktspktsp) :D but the problem is when hate/fear is used to justify particular policies that have very tangible repercussions. That goes beyond people's "right to hate" (ideologically) and starts to infringe on other people's right to live as equal human beings. This is a universal problem across human history and cultures, but that doesn't mean we should pat it on the back and say, "That's alright." This is something that must evolve in human thought/behavior, if we are going to survive and adapt as a species.

Laundry is the only thing that should be separated by color.

Racism is such a perpetual motion machine. Makes me sick.

They could have just made it green or something, really.

As a black man I personally think that the vast majority of black people do in fact need to lighten up, and perhaps even more need to buckle down. We, as a group, are quick to call each other nigger this & nigger that and then try to justify it by saying that "It's not meant in a derogatory way", but as soon as a white person says it, no matter what the intention the guns are drawn & the race card is pulled. That's what most people define as "hypocritical" or what could be called a "double standard". Hell, you don't see white people running around calling each other Honkies or Crackers in their music videos. Black people like to complain about the glass ceiling but then drop out of college at a higher rate than whites. An entire generation of blacks is growing up thinking that they are owed retribution for something that didn't happen to them, you're supposed to learn from the past, not dwell on it. I guess that's just the Bill Cosby in me speaking though, but then again he's not a "real black man".

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mT0yfnbpfc8&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mT0yfnbpfc8&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Here's the link just in case:

Seriously though it's people's right to be a clod. It's people's right to be an insensitive prick. It's their right to be an asshole and inconsiderate bastard.

When you start telling people that they need to straighten up and make like you fit it, it makes it harder to see those assholes and distinguish them from the normal good people.

People can have intentions all they want, but it's their actions that show really what they are.

I don't want to have to weed through a bunch of surface bullshit to find out that someone is an asshole. I'd like there to be tangible easily found signs.

Randle2I, thanks for your words, and the video. :) Personally, I agreed quite a bit with Bill Cosby's assertion, but having worked in North and West Philly for a summer, I can see why his words were irrelevant to a large portion of that city's black population. There's reasons they don't consider him to be a "real black man," I suppose... I'm not saying it's valid, but they have their reasons. It's hard to make sense of that, as someone--me, not black, and being from an upper middle-class background--looking in from the outside.
Yes, as I already agreed above... but it's NOT their right to use that as justification for actual discrimination. Period.
Now, I can agree with you on this note.

That's true:
It's right there.

You know as I read this I thought to myself about the recent "noosings" and such, "what does discrimination mean now?" much along the lines of the hippy thread.

Because you are right, it isn't justifiable to discriminate, but how is a halloween decoration discrminating against them? Because you are making a hostile environment for them to not knock on your door? They still have the choice to knock on the door. I don't see discrmination until they open the door and then say, "White kid, here's candy. Black kid no candy for you."

:thumbsup: Hell, everybody knows monsters are green!

...

Hell, somebody would have been offended.

While I don't think that any of us here are racist, we all probably have a subconscious preference against other races (or perhaps even our own race). The link below (a study done by Harvard) will test that preference:

Black vs. White Test

It's been a while since I took it, but I believe I had a slight biased against blacks. Feel free to post your own results.

I have a slight bias against Neocons.

Thought police, well no, perception police.

I have a bias against socialists, its ok, we have the guns.

In that case, I'm going to break out my "I'm an asshole" sign to hang around my neck. No noose, though. I'm clumsy.

Imprecise grammar aside, racism is like poverty - it will never go away. Humans continually divide the world into "us" and "them" groups. Race happens to be one of the easier ways to do that.

This story has many of the telltale signs of Tempest In a Teapot Syndrom (TITS for short). The local reverend started it off by making an assumption. Then other people either made the same assumption independently or listen to the reverend's. The homeowners wouldn't have painted it white if they originally intended to send an offensive message. They tried to remedy the problem, but it was too little too late. Hence my TITS comment. The problem is solved - the dummy is no longer black. The idea that it once was offensive seems to mean that it is now.

For the record, having a black face does not necessarily make this racist in and of itself. A body that has been hung in a tree will turn black from the neck up as it decomposes.

and rightly so! :thumbsup:

I know each and everyone of us can somehow show up as an asshole to someone else, we cut someone off, we take too long to pull out our wallets at the checkout counter, we talk on the cellphone instead of to the cashier/service worker but those don't count insomuch as these others do.

You hate us both don't you :sad:

By the way... wasn't there a South Park episode about this?

The children were asked to design a flag, and the flag they designed had a man in a noose on it who happened to have dark skin... Chef took offense to the flag until he realized that the children didn't see the man on the flag as having any race at all.

Edit: Ah, here we go... "Chef Goes Nanners".

Color words are silly fun. If I'm white, they're black. Not really accurate.

If I'm European American, they're African American... unless either of us is from Brazil, Australia, or Mongolia.

...

Oh, geography is a stupid way to label skin color!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...sp_rofl0ne.gif Goddamn!! That was funny.

Y'know...let 'em fuss. By the time the gears get moving, in this great bureaucracy of ours, Halloween will have long passed, the turkey bones will have been discarded, the Christmas tree will have lost its luster, the snows will have melted, and the birds will be rejoicing us with their spring songs.

Who cares? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/rhlandis/huh.gif

Wow! Me too! I have seen the greatest minds of my generation destroyed by that damn website... wait, that was Neopets... just a bit of a difference. :no:

I don't have much to add, except people are too quick to take offense at anything, people need to be more like my friend Tom. I was walking into work from my car, and my Asian friend Tom that works in another department is walking with me, it's been cold recently, and I look up at the sky and say "bit of a nip in the air this morning"... he just looks at me for a second and chokes up this massive flehemy loogie and spits it out a good 15 feet in front of us, but before it lands he says "There is now!"

We laughed, then he called me a damn cracker.

Because not everything in life is easy. If you want to apply that, you'd have to do it to all aspects of your life. If people would have had that frame of thought back when there was slavery, we'd still see it today.

Take a look at a history book, the hanging and lynching of slaves and black people have been a terrible reminder of the past. Sure, there is a double-standard here. But, if someone had an Indian hanging outside, people would have the same problem. Or a Jewish person.

Are we now labeling our holiday decorations with blatant signs of prejudiced hate against any one race/sub-culture?


No? Then, let it be.


After all, this was but an incident involving holiday ornamentations taken to an extreme that was not there.

Maybe the white face hanging ghoul is really Jewish.

Someone should call and complain.

I totally agree, I'm a really quite adament about equal rights and the Civil Rights Movement, and to see this really makes me feel bad. Not about black people in general, but the people who are doing this to themselves. I wish their great grandparents who fought for their rights could be there to try to stop them...

Hey, if it was a Muslim man out there, I'm sure as hell there wouldn't be anyone calling about anything. I'm just saying there are touchy subjects out there. I don't think there is anything wrong with decorating for Halloween, but make him look like a dark orc, or a green goblin, etc.

Why?? Why can't there be black monsters or goblins?? Wouldn't that be racist?? We'd be leaving out a whole class of people by not having black monsters etc. Then we'd have some other minister complain that black people were being left out of Halloween. :rolleyes:

People are so goddamn pissy about everything. They *WANT* to take exception .. they want to start shit.. they want to find racism.

I live in an area where people still use nigger quite often and black people think white people owe them for the past. It's so fucking annoying. If people would just be who they are, life would be alot easier. I'm so sick of people living in the past and using it for justification for the present.

This whole story is about a misunderstanding by someone who wanted to take exception because that person wanted to see a racist statement. I can understand if it had a swastika or other emblem on there or if it was supposed to be an actual black man, but seriously, it's a fucking dummy that happened to be black.

Harden the fuck up is absolutely correct.

So basically, people need to shut the fuck up and find out what really is going on before assuming people are racists or quit being damn up in arms when it's within a person's right to be one.

Fuck the racists.. fuck the bullshitters, fuck the assholes.. no wait.. I'm an asshole.. fuck everyone but me.. how's that? :D

Gather 'round everyone, let papa Hal tell you a story of great import!

Y'see, I was walkin' along with my buddies after lunch, heading back to the workplace. My co-worker Jordan is half-black and is never slow to quip a blatantly racist, sexist or generally stupid remark, but today he was on relatively good behavior. In conversation, the subject of fried chicken came about and it sparked my memory of a website I had been browsing.

"That reminds me of this website I was browsing. The domain was 'negrophonic,'" I started.

"Negrophonic, eh? Wish I had thought of that," replied Jordan.

"Well, the background of this website has a bunch of flying watermelons. Watermelon after watermelon."

Jordan chuckled and instantly suggested, "you know what would be better? If went watermelon - chicken - watermelon - chicken."

This of course made me laugh, but no good joke goes unappreciated. Immediately from behind us erupted the angered yelling of a black man in dirty salmon-colored sweat pants and a ragged pair of Uggs.

"Watermelon chicken? Watermelon chicken? Mothafucka, do you know I'll fuck you up?!?"

His following words were not totally clear because I was laughing uncontrollably at this point. My buddies and I were already crossing the street and I was doubling over with hysterical laughter. The man stayed on his side of the street but he yelled after us.

"Watermelon chicken! Mothafucka, you better not come back here. I aint afraid of prison!"

What made it a little more humorous was the fact that he was standing in front of the Manhattan detention complex. So as I was stumbling down the sidewalk, keeled over with glee, that sad example of humanity was strutting perpendicular to us on his side of the street, still yelling.

"Watermelon chicken."

It was funny. Really.


So, the moral of the story is... pride his HILARIOUS.

(As an aside, I'm going to be real blunt here. Of all the people who are loud, obnoxious, thuggish, threatening and generally unpleasant, black people make up 90%. There are some slimy and shitty white, hispanic, indian and asian people, but whenever I'm made to feel uncomfortable because of the outward behavior of another human, 9 times out of 10 that human is black. That's not racist, that's pure happenstance.)

Well, I'd have to say that in a region such as the one where this scene took place, environment counts for something. People (especially children) are not immune to their physical environment, quite the opposite. Otherwise, I mean, do you think it's well and good for someone to burn a cross in their yard, since it's private property and they can do whatever they like? I'd say no, if that was my neighbor (whether or not I was white, black, other), I'd probably raise a fuss, too. And I doubt anyone here would argue my right to do so... but I could be wrong. :)

The problem here is that hanging a fake body in a tree is certainly not the same as burning a cross in a yard, not by a long shot. But again, as MM said much earlier, *given the local context*... putting a dark-faced body in a noose and hanging it in a tree is still pretty poor judgment, in my opinion. I don't know about the white-faced fake bodies (personally, I find the whole idea of fake-hangings rather disturbing, no matter what color the faces), but yes, even the appearance of hanging a dark-faced man in a public place in that particular region does affect the environment... kids walking by, associating dark faces with being hanged, thinking it's okay... and then growing up to perhaps be the kids who hung nooses in the schoolyard where the Jena 6 event took place. It's not a far stretch, if you ask me, not in that area.

So no, it's not direct discrimination... but I do think it creates an environment that doesn't contribute anything to helping people from different groups to get along better and improve their neighborhood. (Are some groups of blacks guilty of that kind of behavior, too?... in sabotaging their own neighborhood enviroments? Definitely. You won't find argument with me there.) And I am just not a fan of creating negative environments, period. But that is very much my personal bias, I realize that... until I get elected to public office. ;)

Monsters and goblins and orcs are all fantasy characters.... they're not people, and they've never existed.

My point is that YOU bring the baggage with you. You carry it with you wherever you go and that is how you filter the world. I didn't give it to you by putting up my halloween decoration (i'm not putting any up i'm way too lazy to do so.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...areno20car.jpg

What came to your mind when you saw this photo? KKK?

If you were from Spain you would have exclaimed Nazarenos!!!!

I'm confused...?

Exactly.

But that doesn't mean they can't be a certain color. If it's a fantasy character .. which obviously it is since it wasn't a real person hanging, then why should it matter what fucking color it was? It doesn't. Except to idiots who want to see things all one way.

I am an asshole.

I didn't see a full picture of it, the one that I did see, was from far away and you could only see it's back. Now, if it in fact, did look like a black person hanging, then yes, I think the NAACP and black community has all the right to be upset. If it doesn't, then I think it's an over-reaction.

They do have the right to be upset.. just as that person has a right to hang the display for halloween in their yard.

They also have the right to inquire about the situation before making assumptions and a huge deal over nothing.

It's halloween..people put up macbre decorations.. people should know that by now. I understand and see the "poor taste" argument.. but people have a right to poor taste just as much as good taste; *IF* that's even viable in this article.. which I think isn't.

Well said!

Actually, it took me a second to even see the man in the hood... I was trying to figure out what professional sport that trophy was from. lol

(It's been a long week)

I am Spartacus.

And an asshole.

Here's a better photo of Nazarenos from Sevilla Spain

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...22ec33de15.jpg

Again, instantly KKK?

Of course not knowing that they are penitents trying to absolve sins for Holy Week.

jenna, my point is that YOU have any filters, that's the example since you stated seeing something like this makes YOU feel bad about this situation taking into consideration the history YOU are adding to it.

Why do I think we would see a very different reaction to this statement if I posted this :paranoid:

Sadly this is my experience as well, I try not to dwell on it beyond the incidents itself though.

I was careful with my wording. I wanted to state that not all black people are this way, just that of all the people who are this way, most are black.

Cyn, you're proving my point exactly. This is what I was talking about with regards to environment, in a particular region. Sure, those white-hooded dudes are harmless *in their particular context,* (in this case, Spain) which does NOT consider them to be threatening figures whatsoever. However, put them in a different context, that of the American South, and YES, they white hood give much offense, and rightly so. This is where something called cultural relativism (anthro 101) comes in. You look at something IN ITS OWN CONTEXT before you even get close to judging it.

What you are doing is projecting something completely out of its own context, and testing Jenna by asking what her interpretation is, *based on her own context.* I don't see how this helps prove any point of yours, to be honest, and I don't see its relevance to the OP's issue at all. The article is not about a fake body being hung up in a tree in Spain, or Norway, or wherever... and the NAACP get pissy about it from the US... which would, indeed, be absurd (which is the analogy you seem to attempting to make). The issue is about a fake body, very similar to a lynched one, being hung up in a very particular area of the American south, which has a very particular history and context, where YES, the imagery DOES still have power. I mean, come on! Is it really so hard to understand?!?! Seriously, WTF people.

Heck of a thread we've got here.

Someone finds something offensive. You don't think it is, as it wasn't intended that way- you insist it remain, because you find the posturing of the other side to be ludicrous.

Now... is it so terrible to just take down the damn decoration? People say and do things that offend others all the time, having no idea they would offend. Is it really that important that you win every argument about what you intended that you can't just take a fucking chill pill and take it down? Is it really hurting anything?

It's not like we're talking about making a statement or observation that means something to you. It's not like you were making an expression of your right to free speech on some subject of personal/religious/political/etc. importance, and someone asked you to stop because it offended them. This isn't a war against free speech, it's a holiday decoration. If someone is so would up on a halloween decoration that they instantly go into hardcore-defense-of-my-rights mode, their priorities in life are seriously out of whack (unless we're talking about some decoration/religion thing, but then that's more about the religious aspect and not merely the decoration).

Having said that- anyone who sees that someone else truly meant no offense by doing or saying something, and insists it remain because nothing was intended, then grow a thicker skin and get over yourself already. The rest of the world does not exist to placate to your delicate sensibilities. We're not all walking around just waiting for the next opportunity to apologize for the next minor slip that shatters your glass house and rips your thin skin from head to toe.

Both sides need to have a little bit more respect for themselves. Feelings of insecurity and victimization are what cause a lot of this posturing to begin with.

'All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.' Bulworth (1998)

It would make things so much simpler, wouldn't it? ;)

Analog: YES. On both points that you made.

I find this statement highly ironic because this is the exact point that I believe squeeb was trying to make in the OP, yet you chose to take his words extremely literally and judged him before asking for the proper context or clarification, thus breaking your own rule.

I hope this thread can level off a bit, it's trending towards ruin with a lot of high emotions. If we can all just make the points we set out to get across and spare the personal touches, which aren't helping anything, we'll all be able to talk about this for a lot longer. :)

I think most people don't even know what it is to be a racist. Seriously...a racist is someone who honestly believes that a race is not as good as another race or that their race is superior.

Let's break it down:

I drive past a part of town that is known as slumville. I see a black man wearing sweat pants with a dirty wife beater on. His pants are down to his thighs and he's walking with a distinctive strut. His right hand is in his pocket. I think to myself, "look at that drug dealer."

Was that racist? No. This is my mind saying, are most drug dealers in my city black? Yes. Am I in a bad part of town? Yes. Is he dressed grungily as if his lifestyle is in shambles? Yes. So he is probably a drug dealer. Racism: thinking one race is superior to another. Was I racist or did I make a simple observation?

I'll say that 75% of boisterous, rude people in public are black in my area. I can't go to the theater because black people ruin the experience. Am I being racist? Racism: believing one race is superior to another. I go to the theater and every fucking time a group of black people yell and scream and clap throughout the movie. If anyone says anything to them they immediately act like they're being suppressed. Observation or racism?

I know someone who works at social services. They're social services for the whole county which is not comprised with a black majority. A huge majority of this person's clients are black. They don't have jobs and they do not go to college. When asked why, they reply with "why would I go to college or get a job when it would make my free money go away?" Now when I see a black person walking around my city, I think, they don't have a job because their free money would go away. Is that racist, or coming to an objective conclusion about data that has been presented?

None of these incidents have ANYTHING to do with racial superiority. They're about raw facts and experiences.

This halloween thing is absurd. If the hanging dummy had a sign on saying "stay out of my yard fucking niggers" then I could see it as racist. Otherwise it's jackassery.

People use the term racist waaay too generously now. Anytime there is a negative comment made about any race the racist term is thrown around. News flash: observing a specific race behaving in a particular manner is not racist.

Not trying to be personal here, but since you addressed me, I'll reply directly: I don't understand how that was his point at all, so I need your help on that one. To me, the OP said loud and clear, "black people need to lighten up," and other iterations of that idea. The OP did not say that people (of all skin colors) should look at the local context in which this scene took place (a particular area of the south) and evaluate it based on those factors. At least, clearly, that was my understanding. Hmm. I guess we have another misunderstanding here, because words ARE literal... I mean, unless we're writing poetry or something, which would make them metaphorical. I honestly don't know how else the statement "black people need to lighten up" could be interpreted, really. It was unequivocal.

As I said before, all I have to go on are people's words here. What else am I supposed to react to? His facial expression? I can't see that. I have nothing against squeeb as a member on TFP, really. I've generally appreciated his contributions; this is not personal. If *anyone* here had opened a thread with a statement like that, yes, I would have laid into those words with just as much energy as I have here.

And, as I said earlier, I would have done the same with a student paper, or newspaper article, or any other piece of writing submitted for evaluation/displayed in public, and I'd expect people to take me to task for the same error, if I committed it myself. Words, as a part of human language, are symbols; they have power. As someone in a privileged position, with the ability to influence others (through my education and work), I cannot ignore those facts.

Abaya, I believe that Squeeb's original point was that the context *also* includes a very particular date with a very particular history of celebration. I see several houses around me right now with hanging bodies...I can remember such displays of hanging figures from my youth 30+ years ago (damn, I'm old gah) and I have pictures from my parent's era (1930s) with similar displays in their front yards.

You are right about the context at any other time of year, but again, on Halloween? That is why I believe that issue is being taken.

First of all, abaya, I'm not trying to make this a personal, either. I don't have anything against you, I just don't really understand your thinking at the moment.
I suppose to be completely politically correct, he should have listed every person who took offense to this by name, because perhaps not every member of the NAACP interpreted the situation as it being racist. That is really the only way to avoid making any generalizations... but having to do that also seems rather ridiculous, don't you agree?

I agree with you that his phrasing should have been revised before posting, but I don't think that he deserved to be attacked for choosing poor wording. And I think the quote below clearly does demonstrate the true meaning of his post, that people should look at the context in which the situation took place (Halloween) and evaluate it based on those factors.
___________________

I'd rather not get into an argument regarding semantics because that isn't what this thread is about. However, if you are going to take everything so literally, why did you not lay into filtherton when he said, "All you fucking jews need to knock this shit off."? Like you said, you can't see his facial expression... so what else is there to react to besides the literal meaning of his words?

Isn't the point of Halloween decorations (if not the entire "holiday" itself) to display and glorify things that generally offensive? Murdering psycopaths, mutilated bodies, decaying corpses, satanic/evil images are all things that most people find unpleasant.

So, do I see racism in this story.

You bet.

According to the article:


So this means that the preacher and the "black community leaders" are OK with the depictions of a murdered human, but the depictions of a murdered [b]black[/i] human are blatantly offensive and somehow more important than some ol' white guy takin' a knife to the gut.

Sounds like racism to me.

the thing that makes me laugh about this whole thing, if it was a black family that hung a white ghoul, no one would have said a damn thing in the first place. And if someone did, everyone would have taken the view that whoever it was that got offended was over reacting. Interesting double standard, I think.

Yeah, two parts which can be inverted aren't always equally balanced.

Where was the NAACP when Spider-man 3 came out? Spider-man becomes black, turns into a prick that thinks he can dance, loves white chicks, and is more athletic? And is a villain? Give me a fucking break.

Don't get me started on Darth Vader, will.

I am in agreement with you but I take it yet a step further. I believe that the "context" that you are talking about bringing is also in fact part and parcel to the whole. I'm continuing to state that it doesn't change.

So thus in my example, a black person taking offense in Spain is him bringing that baggage with him. In a courtroom setting the judge and jury look to see the defendants intent to deem whether or not the actions were right or wrong. For most situations, these people are only screaming about the end and hardly looking at the intent.

Yeah, his light saber was got bigger when he went over to the dark side.

quoted for genius-ness and truthiness!

Jenna, you are saying ghouls are too "human-like" and therefore must be put under political correctness policies? What of elves then? Elves are humanoid. If I have a black elf (pointy ears) hanging, that would be racist. But he can be a green elf. However if I have a cookie-monster looking creature that happens to be black, that is okay?

I don't really understand why people push so hard to draw such ridiculous lines. Political correctness is a weakness. While the principal is valiant, it's just not a plausible setup.

Halx, what you said is pretty much true. I'm not racist. Well, no more than the fact that I hate people in general regardless of skin color. But what you said is also true. Here, where I'm at, two of my favorite co-workers are black. They're great soldiers and great guys. Having grown up outside of Detroit, though, I can agree with your qualification wholeheartedly. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. Whitetrash/rednecks really DO put furniture out on the lawn, not take care of their shit, have rowdy children and are generally as dumb as a floating turd. Rich folk are generally white, generally cold/calculating (not always, mind you, GENERALLY), and fearful of the lower class. Asians generally ARE smarter, better students, better musicians, worse drivers and are more likely to play role-playing games if they're gamers. Hispanics (especially Mexicans) generally are close to their families, travel in large packs of friends and can load 20 people into a Pinto (though the Mexicans I work with have been shamed by the Afghans ability to cram DOZENS of people into a truck). On that note, black people generally are the ones to be noisiest in a theatre, create a scene about an innocent comment and get butt hurt over an unintentional slight.

People are who they are. There is no American culture, there is only the culture of subgroups within America, and each are vastly different, for better or for worse. Just like white people in the UK are different than white people in America, so are black people. In England, black people don't talk with a specific accent (no, not all American blacks speak Ebonics, but it's fairly common in urban areas). In fact, in England the only difference, generally speaking, between black people and white is the color of their skin. In the US, that's not the case at all. The culture is different, the social issues are different, the language is different.

Frankly, this topic is one of my hot spots, in case anyone can't tell. First of all, I didn't enslave black people. As far as I know, my relatives didn't either (most came from Ireland or the Ukraine <100 years ago). Does a pissed off black teen with racial angst bother to ask me before spitting out racist slurs? Of COURSE not! Even if my ancestors DID own black slaves, so the fuck what? That's not me. That's not my parents. Black people who get all crazed about racism are happy to point out that the white man keeps them down (when not every white man does), but gets bent out of shape when a white person counters with the black persons ineptitude at gaining social status or "breaking the cycle" of poverty. They're both racist. Period! Do I dislike black people? Nope! I have, however, had far more racial, uncomfortable or just really BAD experiences with black people, than with people from any other race. Still, I maintain a positive outlook and judge people individually.

Hmmm, stream of thought, sorry about the jumble. Just annoying as hell! The racially bent black people in the US want to be equal, but want to be different. It's just like women. You can't have quality while trying to maintain inequality. It'll never work for ANY minority group, ever, anywhere on Earth. I assure you all! I'm not sexist! I think women should be able to work whatever job they want, have no glass ceiling and get equal pay. I think that's fucking GREAT! I also think they need to understand that sexist jokes might be told at the office, that guys talk about tits and pussy around the water cooler and that guys, in the office or outside of the office, will occasionally look at their asses when they wear that tiny skirt. Black people should be able to have all those things, too, but they need to understand that they have to work just as hard as we do to stay out of poverty, they have to put down the gold teeth and spinners and pay for college instead and learn that talking like a fucking retard will make people treat you like a fucking retard (again, regardless of race). When people start owning their piece of the equation, they'll find an equal footing. As long as they keep dropping the ball, anywhere along the way, they'll find their climb to the top hard indeed.

Are there self-made wealthy black people in the country? Women? Yes and yes! So it CAN be done! Quit fucking whining, take responsibility for your own shit and be another equal human being.

Okay, I'm gonna go take a Valium now...

What amazes me much more so than any aspect of this entirely absurd subject is the manner in which this forum gives birth to this same discussion every 2-3 months.

I may not be pushing the envelope with my every post but I honestly can not understand how anyone can get seriously involved in one of these threads and feel as if they've contributed anything truly significant. Especially when all of the finer points of this thread go without saying.

And while one glance at my avatar might lead you to some conclusion as to how I may feel about the subject at hand, all that I can honestly say I feel after reading 3 more pages of this is: exactly how is any of this the evolution of anything?

em·pa·thy [em-puh-thee]
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: By means of empathy, a great painting becomes a mirror of the self.

Yeah, I had to do that last night too, and now I'm done with this brick wall of a thread... and the other two racial threads that cropped up before this one (Manic_Skafe is right).

Except his genius-ness overlooked the truthiness of prejudice.

”Black people”? Hmmmmm.

I’ve been completely around the world, on my own steam, twice and I’ve met people of all shades of colour. So I can’t really agree with you. I understand what you’re talking about but I just can’t side with you. Not really.

But you probably really didn’t mean “all blacks”. You were certainly talking about “American blacks”. So maybe I can agree with you after all. I’ve met lots of those too. All you need to say is something like, “I think Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) was a loud mouth.” Or, "Colin Powell wasn’t as good as everyone says.” Yeah. You can list a hundred Black Americans who you admire but you only need to dislike one single one and the Black American (in most cases) will call you a racist. Such people make up 98 percent of the Black Americans that I have met and they don’t deserve two minutes of my time.

Jamaicans and Gambians fall into the very same category.

I think it’s normal and healthy. :) I don’t think that the subject has ever really been thoroughly “aired”. That’s the problem and that’s why people still feel a need to talk about it.

It is natural for people to talk about anything that is of interest. Often, unresolved problems are the most interesting, and deep feelings of injustice leave people understanding that true justice has yet to be realized. It is equally natural, therefore for people to make an expression that they feel will clear up the problem, “once and for all”. But then someone steps in and cries “absurd subject” (no offence) and tries to stifle the subject altogether - or a real racist will jump in with a stream of nasty comments and get everyone’s feathers ruffled so that no intelligent exchange of ideas/feelings is possible. So the subject is shut down before any headway is gained.

So the subject pops up again further on down. It’s never really been discussed properly without interference from insincere (or well-meaning but ….. ) individuals so I guess we’ll have the subject on our platter for a long, long time to come.