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-   -   black people need to lighten up (https://thetfp.com/tfp/general-discussion/126346-black-people-need-lighten-up.html)

The_Jazz 10-26-2007 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Forward
Such people make up 98 percent of the Black Americans that I have met and they don’t deserve two minutes of my time.

My result are notably different and have a much lower number (roughly a factor of 10).

It sounds like you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy for the behavior of others.

One thing I've found is that if you have valid reason for not liking someone (i.e. Eddie Murphy because he sold out and isn't funny any more), the vast majority don't care. If you don't offer a valid reason, you leave it to the imagination of the listener, and with the history of racism in America, it's not hard to understand why many African Americans imagine the worst.

flat5 10-26-2007 04:49 AM

So you people think that hanging a figure of a black man in your front yard should not be offensive to black people.

I am SO GLAD I don't live near you "people"!

Fast Forward 10-26-2007 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
If you don't offer a valid reason, you leave it to the imagination of the listener, and with the history of racism in America, it's not hard to understand why many African Americans imagine the worst.

That's the catch-all "cop out" that's been employed by american blacks ever since Martin Luther King's dream was lost - or forgotten - or tarnished. That "cop out" is also the reason why the subject has never been poperly discussed and why no solution is in sight. There's not even a stategy or a game plan.

The "hole" or perpetual loop-hole in your statement is that you can never supply "a valid reason" to someone who's not interested in the solution. They prefer calling you a racist. And in so doing keep frustrations high and the true subject of American racism at arms length.

Racism was incorporated into America by way of the white racist but it thrives (today) by way of the black racist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flat5
So you people think that hanging a figure of a black man in your front yard should not be offensive to black people.

I am SO GLAD I don't live near you "people"!

If mere colour were so important to reality then you'd be arrested for not washing "the figure of a WHITE man hanging in your front yard" as soon as it gets dirty.

You see, Manic_Skafe - it IS an interesting subject. :)

The_Jazz 10-26-2007 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Forward
That's the catch-all "cop out" that's been employed by american blacks ever since Martin Luther King's dream was lost - or forgotten - or tarnished. That "cop out" is also the reason why the subject has never been poperly discussed and why no solution is in sight. There's not even a stategy or a game plan.

The "hole" or perpetual loop-hole in your statement is that you can never supply "a valid reason" to someone who's not interested in the solution. They prefer calling you a racist. And in so doing keep frustrations high and the true subject of American racism at arms length.

Racism was incorporated into America by way of the white racist but it thrives (today) by way of the black racist.

I think that I can say as a natural-born American raised in the South speaking to someone who's just visited and never lived here that you don't know what you're talking about.

There is a hole in my statement. I acknowledged it when I made it in the very first paragraph of my response. My experience with racism in the US, which is by its very nature more comprehensive and complete than yours, is that the folks that cry racism first are a much smaller number than the 98% that you claim. My experience is that those folks are about 10% of the total, and that it's not always the same folks that make the claim.

Racism thrives today everywhere. Perhaps you only choose to see the Black against White racism, but it's there between Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, Indians and Pakistanis, Blacks and Koreans, Whites on Mexicans and any number of other groups that I could point out if I chose to think about it longer than the 10 seconds I devoted.

As far as discussion of the problem goes, what the hell do you think this whole thread is about?

Jetée 10-26-2007 06:09 AM

Over-reaction—and why it serves no purpose to concentrate an entire tumultous history into an ordinary situation but to have something to scream about.


Learn to eschew the blinds that such scenarios create because of the up-in-arms discussion some people choose to bring forth to make a tangential that point that is not there.

Jenna 10-26-2007 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys
Jenna, you are saying ghouls are too "human-like" and therefore must be put under political correctness policies? What of elves then? Elves are humanoid. If I have a black elf (pointy ears) hanging, that would be racist. But he can be a green elf. However if I have a cookie-monster looking creature that happens to be black, that is okay?

I don't know what it looked like, what if their ghoul looked distinctly like a black man hanging in the tree? I'm not saying it's human like because I don't even know what the damn thing looks like.

squeeeb 10-26-2007 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flat5
So you people think that hanging a figure of a black man in your front yard should not be offensive to black people.

I am SO GLAD I don't live near you "people"!

see, that's the thing. IT WASN'T A FIGURE OF A BLACK MAN. it wasn't a figure of a man at all. it was a "ghoul". monster. dead guy. HOLIDAY DECORATION. *you* need to lighten up. and by "you", i mean you.

dirtyrascal7 10-26-2007 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jennaboo4u
I don't know what it looked like, what if their ghoul looked distinctly like a black man hanging in the tree? I'm not saying it's human like because I don't even know what the damn thing looks like.

There's a picture of it in the article, not to mention the copy of it that Ustwo posted in this actual thread (post #19).

And no, it looks nothing like a black man. In fact, there isn't even a noose around the "man's" head... it looks like they strung him up so he would appear to be running away from the zombies who are grabbing onto his ankles and trying to eat him.

Edit -- I just now saw the second link in the OP, which is actually a different article with a different picture... where the figure is actually hanging from a rope. You can't really tell what color "skin" it has though, it is simply dressed in dark clothing.

Jenna 10-26-2007 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtyrascal7

Edit -- I just now saw the second link in the OP, which is actually a different article with a different picture... where the figure is actually hanging from a rope. You can't really tell what color "skin" it has though, it is simply dressed in dark clothing.

Which is why I said that it would depend, if I could see the face. If it distinctly looked like a black man hanging in the tree, then I could understand the NAACP's side. However, if I could see that the face was a ghoul looking figure, which happened to have black skin, then yes, I would think they were over-reacting.

flat5 10-26-2007 07:57 AM

..

roachboy 10-26-2007 08:50 AM

there are two unrelated stories linked in the op.
it is baffling that this would have confused folk.

there is an interesting subtext tho--the pseudo-objectivity of photographs-- the meanings assigned to particular decoration schemes are situationally driven----what of that situation do you see reproduced in a photo?
anything?

if nothing of the situation that drives interpretation is present in the photographs, then how are the photographs accurate depictions of what is happening in either of these places?

and if they are not accurate because they do not and cannot reproduce the environment that shapes meaning-assignment, then they are pretty worthless as a basis for arriving at judgments about that situation.

the only way that the photos can function is as evidence of a most fragmentary nature: they show that at a particular instant, the arrangement of objects within and around the frame was this way.

meanings do not reside in objects. meanings are made by framing objects, linking them to other phenomena. that process--which is basically how we live in the world--does not photograph.

but you know this, if you think about it.

passivity with respect to information is not pretty: it is not smart, it is not interesting----it is abject.

but maybe at some unwitting level, making of this stupid thread an exercise in abjection is a good thing.

i really cant imagine anything more abject than the argument--which persists--that the problem with racism in america and its history is that it makes you feel maybe self-conscious about costume and decor choices for halloween.

this just makes the abjection explicit.

filtherton 10-26-2007 09:47 AM

White people. Advice: perhaps you should take your own advice- lighten the fuck up. On a macro scale, the advantages of being in the majority generally far outweigh any possible slights that may or may not be inflicted upon you by either the individual or the collective will of those in the racial and cultural minority.

You will survive. Don't be oversensitive to the oversensitivity of others. Most nonwhites aren't out to get you, most nonwhites don't depend on intercultural disharmony for their livelihood, most nonwhites aren't responsible for you not getting that job, and most nonwhites aren't responsible for your nephew not getting into brown.


Everyone. A question:
Where does this reactive hypersensitivity on the part of some white folks come from? Is it just a tit-for-tat kind of thing, are they/you being oversensitive because it looks like fun? Who cares if somebody found a halloween decoration offensive and tried to raise a stink about it? Are they/you, in all their/your self righteous whiteness, a member of that community? No? Sure, it could be an over reaction, but why do they/you care? Do they/you get all huffy when a reverend of any race raises a stink about holloween decorations because they are satanic? No? Why does it matter? What exactly do they/you have on the line here?

Halx 10-26-2007 10:13 AM

Man is frustrated.
Man makes hastily-worded statement.
Audience is angered by semantics, despite understanding frustration.
A stupid debate is born.

*Nikki* 10-26-2007 11:41 AM

Does this mean I have to take down my black bats?

Lasereth 10-26-2007 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Except his genius-ness overlooked the truthiness of prejudice.

Is being prejudice really a bad thing? Or is it human nature? Coming to a preconceived notion about something is simply your mind making an educated guess based on collected data. If I'm at work and someone calls and says their printer doesn't work I immediately think to myself that a print job is stuck in the printer queue. Am I prejudice towards the printer by thinking that it's queue is jammed? I don't even know how the word prejudice came to be negative. It's basically another word for educated guess based on observation.

Plan9 10-26-2007 12:54 PM

*cues that silly Slayer song entitled Guilty of Being White*

Bill O'Rights 10-26-2007 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nikki*
Does this mean I have to take down my black bats?

Hell yes!! It's degrading to Vampire Americans. How insensitive can you be?

Plan9 10-26-2007 01:10 PM

Werewolves, zombies, vampires!

*gets sued for placing Vampires last*

Infinite_Loser 10-26-2007 01:14 PM

Some of the latter comments in this thread disturb me.

Plan9 10-26-2007 01:23 PM

The fact that the world is really like this disturbs me, man.

...

"Racial superiority is a mere pigment of the imagination."

...

Racism: How many generations will carry this crap in their heads?

Infinite_Loser 10-26-2007 01:33 PM

I mentioned nothing of (Perceived) racial superiority.

Baraka_Guru 10-26-2007 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
Is being prejudice really a bad thing? Or is it human nature? Coming to a preconceived notion about something is simply your mind making an educated guess based on collected data. If I'm at work and someone calls and says their printer doesn't work I immediately think to myself that a print job is stuck in the printer queue. Am I prejudice towards the printer by thinking that it's queue is jammed? I don't even know how the word prejudice came to be negative. It's basically another word for educated guess based on observation.

This is a slippery slope and a mismatched comparison. A printer queue isn't a black man walking down the street. Not all prejudice is immoral, but a lot of it is. Consider this prejudice: All women are sluts. Also, an educated guess isn't quite the same as being prejudiced.

filtherton 10-26-2007 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
It's basically another word for educated guess based on observation.

I don't know about that. I've known plenty of bigots- most of them weren't exactly educated enough on the subjects of their bigotry to make educated guesses.

Is "god hates fags" an educated guess?
Is "all black people believe in ghosts" an educated guess?
Is "all black men have huge cocks" and educated guess?

I think that what you call educated guessing, i see as intellectual laziness.

In any case, when dealing with actual people, i have found that it is generally in my best interest to treat people as individuals instead of making educated guesses about them based on superficial details.

mrklixx 10-26-2007 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
Is "god hates fags" an educated guess?
Is "all black people believe in ghosts" an educated guess?
Is "all black men have huge cocks" and educated guess?

No, but neither is "god hates black ghost fags because they have huge cocks". It's a fact. I asked him. He's kind of a jerk that way.

filtherton 10-26-2007 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx
No, but neither is "god hates black ghost fags because they have huge cocks". It's a fact. I asked him. He's kind of a jerk that way.

Well, if god tells you specifically than of course it's not a guess. NO DOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

squeeeb 10-26-2007 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
*cues that silly Slayer song entitled Guilty of Being White*

i was gonna call you on that, as minor threat did it first, but i googled and slayer did indeed cover it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
Is being prejudice really a bad thing? [cut for brevity] It's basically another word for educated guess based on observation.

it's not really another word for educated guess, that would be like...assumption. prejudice is "A preconceived preference or idea", or more commonly, the pejorative meanings such as "An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts." and " "Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion."

is it a bad thing? well, for the irrational hatred of a group, yeah, i think it's not a healthy productive thing and fits in the "bad thing" category. for the "preconceived preference or idea" then no, it's not bad.

i have a prejudice toward red wine, i don't like white wine, even though there are probably tasty white wines out there. i don't see that as a bad thing.

i'm not trying to put words in your mouth or tell you what you meant so i will only assume you were leaning toward "preconcieved preference" version of prejudice.

Lasereth 10-26-2007 05:15 PM

Read my post again if you're not sure of what I meant by it. I state clearly that prejudice isn't negative. Racism is negative. Prejudice is a word that is now negative in our society even though its definition is quite literally gathering data about something and making an educated guess.

Thinking a black thug on the street is a criminal isn't racist because most black thugs on the street are criminals. It might be prejudice but how is that a bad thing? When I see a black thug on the street, should I say, "look at that lawyer?" I don't have data saying that he's a lawyer. I do have data that give him a huge chance of being a criminal. So me using data that correllates with a person is immoral?

BTW I ask anyone who thinks this thread isn't going anywhere to take another look. This is a huge issue in our world and talking about it helps everyone understand their own feelings and point of views better. I'd rather be talking about issues like this than Britney's custody battle.

Plan9 10-26-2007 05:50 PM

I know my Slayer, dude. Minor Threat isn't really in my palette. Yet.

...

Thread: I get the feeling that Europe doesn't suffer from this degree of idiocy.

pig 10-26-2007 06:38 PM

crompsin: you're wrong about europe. go ask north africans (tunisians, morrocans) how they feel walking around in france. i think in some ways, europe tends to be more strongly nationalist rather than racist, given the closer proximity of the various countries...but they still find ridiculous ways to hate each other.

i almost wrote something earlier in this thread, but deleted the post. all i can say is that i find myself echoing skafe when i read this: we did this with a frat party last year that had some sort of offensive halloween decorations, and the conclusions are basically the same. i don't have the energy or time to get intensely involved in this particular discussion...i do think, however, that when hanging things by nooses in the united states, one might pay particular attention to the potential racial overtones. whatever...best of luck with it.

Plan9 10-26-2007 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig
crompsin: you're wrong about europe. go ask north africans (tunisians, morrocans) how they feel walking around in france. i think in some ways, europe tends to be more strongly nationalist

Ah, nationalism. Yeah, I was going to suggest as much... but I don't have any experience with it nor do I really trust much on the old Intarweb to educate me about things that are so often skewed. I kept my mouth shut. Thank you for educating me with your experience. It saddens me, however.

I do feel that the US has zero sense of nationalism in comparison to Europe simply based on the proximity issue you mentioned. I feel that something has to fill the "Us Vs. Them" void that the US has without a tangible sense of nationalism (no, those dumbass Power of Pride stickers don't really grab me)... and racism is that disgusting monster. Example: Illegal aliens (Quick! Blame all the Mexicans!) is our current sticky issue.

Infinite_Loser 10-26-2007 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
Thread: I get the feeling that Europe doesn't suffer from this degree of idiocy.

You'd be wrong. Europe, as a whole, is more openly racist than any other place in the world.

Ustwo 10-26-2007 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
Ah, nationalism. Yeah, I was going to suggest as much... but I don't have any experience with it nor do I really trust much on the old Intarweb to educate me about things that are so often skewed. I kept my mouth shut. Thank you for educating me with your experience. It saddens me, however.

I do feel that the US has zero sense of nationalism in comparison to Europe simply based on the proximity issue you mentioned. I feel that something has to fill the "Us Vs. Them" void that the US has without a tangible sense of nationalism (no, those dumbass Power of Pride stickers don't really grab me)... and racism is that disgusting monster. Example: Illegal aliens (Quick! Blame all the Mexicans!) is our current sticky issue.

Yes because in the days of the cold war, racism disappeared and we all focused on those damn commies :orly:

I think your theory doesn't quite cut it.

IL is right, the people in the US almost go to comical lengths to not appear racist. Other nations seem to have no problem with it.

Willravel 10-26-2007 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
You'd be wrong. Europe, as a whole, is more openly racist than any other place in the world.

I never saw it outside of France and there it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the US south. Lynching because of race would be unheard of in Western Europe.

Plan9 10-26-2007 08:25 PM

(sigh)

Okay. Where is the hot-hot proof that Europe is a den of racists?

Any super-duper examples of bigotry in action? I wanna see it, smell it.

Rumors? Conjecture? Bullshit? I like to talk as much as anybody, but I typically qualify my substandard babble with opinion disclaimers like "I think" and "I feel" so as to not appear as witty as Ben Stein (who knows pretty much everything and who is probably racist too, right?)

Where da proof at, yo?

...

I find it hard to believe that Europe is as bad as the US. I mean... we're so good at everything that is destroying the future of mankind and the planet.

*gets run over by a H2 with confederate flag sticker*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes because in the days of the cold war, racism disappeared and we all focused on those damn commies :orly:

"Us Vs. Them": Absolutely nothing to do with commies, bro. I am referring to the innate human hierarchical nature. Big boxes. Little boxes. Totem pole rat race sex sells. Skin pigment, gender, how many Pogs you had as a kid. That kinda thing.

DaveOrion 10-26-2007 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I never saw it outside of France and there it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the US south. Lynching because of race would be unheard of in Western Europe.

Thats odd, I personally know some Californian's who got the hell outta there, because of the intolerable level of racism, & moved to TN btw......:) where they say its like a new world compared to CA.....

I dont recall what part of CA, but I know a couple & a single mother who both said the same thing.......along the higher cost of living, natural disasters, and overpopulation known all to well as CA trademarks.......:)

*Gets run over by an H2 with a "We Love Neil Young Songs" bumbersticker*

Baraka_Guru 10-26-2007 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
Thinking a black thug on the street is a criminal isn't racist because most black thugs on the street are criminals.

Please clarify something. What do you mean by "thug" or "Black thug"? If by "thug" you mean someone with a disposition toward crime, then your statement seems circular. It would be like saying "thinking a student in the room is a scholar." Of course a thug can be assumed as being potentially criminal. You are begging the question here.

If I saw a Black youth wearing baggy pants, a basketball jersey, and a bandanna, I might think an array of things. I would think foremost that he is participating in urban culture by what he is wearing. I might think he breaks the law, specifically because of the gangster rap culture he might be playing up to. But I would also look at him as a common phenomenon. Lots of youths dress like that. I would look at him (depending on his age) as a student who could very well one day become a lawyer. I would look at him as a poet, possibly. He could be anything, really.

analog 10-26-2007 10:40 PM

This thread is all over the place. Somehow... nationalism, the Cold War, and the French are part of the discussion now.

It's interesting (though not really productive) to see where the conversation leads just so there's something to keep talking about.

Manic_Skafe is exactly right. The way these threads meander out into completely unrelated topics is precisely because these topics get stale quickly. A topic comes up every so often... and when all the same things have been said, it becomes a game of continuing to talk longer than the other people even though no one actually has anything to say.

I'm not saying people posting have nothing to say- I'm saying it seems they have nothing to say on this topic anymore. It's pretty much run its course unless someone comes in and breathes some new life into it.

Fast Forward 10-27-2007 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
I think that I can say as a natural-born American raised in the South speaking to someone who's just visited and never lived here that you don't know what you're talking about.

...............................

As far as discussion of the problem goes, what the hell do you think this whole thread is about?

"I haven't lived there"? That's it? There's your arguement? Considering that's the full basis of your response to my experience then I can say that your whole post was a waste of precious time. I lived more than 20 years in the U.S. .............. so now you'll follow your normal pattern of "grabbing at straws" and tell me that my 20 years is "no valid reason". I know you too well already. You base your total argumentative weight on more of the same insincere view that left this (and other forums) without any constructive work accomplished. So now we're at it again. Your tactic is, "I can't be wrong, therefore you must be" and "my experience doesn't taly with yours' so you're wrong."

No matter how you cut it your post said nothing more than "I know lots and you know nothing so I know better than you" - now that's what I really call "an invalid reason". You're getting very tedius now and I'm getting tired of you quickly. :shakehead:

Plan9 10-27-2007 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog
This thread is all over the place. Somehow... nationalism, the Cold War, and the French are part of the discussion now.

Better question: When are they not viable red herrings?

...

I think all the pigments need to relax a little. White people need to stop being so Wite-Out (drum crash) over all their possibly offensive stuff and perhaps black people need to realize that despite the nature of the world we live in... optimism is the only thing that will change the self-perpetuating state we live in where white guy does something stupid, black community reacts, animosity goes back to square one.

More people should listen to Bill Cosby's stance on race / community.

Fast Forward 10-27-2007 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nikki*
Does this mean I have to take down my black bats?

Yes! And the yellow corn too. You see, I know that you really want to make racist statement about the chinese - don't try to deny it! You damned racists are all the same! :) :) :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
Is being prejudice really a bad thing?

NO.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
Or is it human nature?

YES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Europe, as a whole, is more openly racist than any other place in the world.

Where do you get such insane ideas? Have you never heard of tribal exterminations in Africa? The trail of tears in the U.S.? The extermination of Aboriginals in specific parts of Australia? The slaughter of native indians in South America? The Japanese treatment of ehtnic miniorities and chinese? The racist laws by the Arabs against blacks in Mauretania still today?

Your statement about Europe is bewildering. You must have heard it at the bar in the bowling lanes on Saturday night. :eek:

Racism in Europe: YES
Europe being "the most openly racist than any other place in the world": NOT EVEN CLOSE

squeeeb 10-27-2007 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog
This thread is all over the place. Somehow... nationalism, the Cold War, and the French are part of the discussion now.

It's interesting (though not really productive) to see where the conversation leads just so there's something to keep talking about.

i think it's awesome. as far as productive, it is in a way. all the little bits of opinion and feelings and fact all add up to a general view of how people feel and such. at least to me in my warped little view of the world.

Ustwo 10-27-2007 07:34 AM

This is a symptom of what has become a mass cultural denial in the US.

My local news channels won't even give race when they are giving the description of a subject at large.

A 6 foot tall male, approximately 180 pounds, wearing a blue t-shirt.....

I mean in an area with a huge black, hispanic, white and asian population what good would race be looking for a criminal?

A few years back Philadelphia put the pictures of 32 wanted murders who were known to be at large on the front page of the major paper (don't recall which one). All were black but one was hispanic. Black leaders were up in arms at this obviously racist display, the paper who's editor was black, apologized. We are talking about the known murders that are free in Philadelphia and the local black leadership was more worried about the perception, than catching men who may kill again.

I think this sort of idiocy is what a lot of people are upset about, and why whitey gets so worked up over something like the original story. Enough is enough.

filtherton 10-27-2007 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
I think this sort of idiocy is what a lot of people are upset about, and why whitey gets so worked up over something like the original story. Enough is enough.


One wonders where whitey was when his religious leaders were calling for a boycott of halloween because of how positively devilish it is.

Nothing makes for better theater than responding to oversensitivity with oversensitivity.

Ustwo 10-27-2007 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
One wonders where whitey was when his religious leaders were calling for a boycott of halloween because of how positively devilish it is.

Nothing makes for better theater than responding to oversensitivity with oversensitivity.

A great many whiteys were annoyed with the anti-Halloween idiots as well, and the anti-Christmas idiots currently.

The difference is the scale of it. The 'white guilt' is about used up.

Infinite_Loser 10-27-2007 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Forward
Europe being "the most openly racist than any other place in the world": NOT EVEN CLOSE

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're wrong. Europe is suffering from an alarming increase in racism; Moreso, in fact, than any other place in the world. I'm not sure how anyone with the knowledge of the situation can argue this point.

Link

Quote:

In “the century of total war”, and the new millenium, Europe is seeing an alarming resurgence in xenophobia and racial hatred.

A short review from the Inter Press Service highlights the rise of neo-Nazism in 2000 in Europe and suggests that “far from being a fringe activity, racism, violence and neo-nationalism have become normal in some communities. The problems need to tackled much earlier, in schools and with social programmes.”

Ethnic minorities and different cultures in one country can often be used as a scapegoat for the majority during times of economic crisis. That is one reason why Nazism became so popular.

In France, May 2002, the success of far right politician Le Pen in the run for leadership (though he lost out in the end) sent a huge shockwave throughout Europe, about how easy it was for far right parties to come close to getting power if there is complacency in the democratic processes and if participation is reduced.

In various places throughout Western Europe, in 2002, as Amnesty International highlights, there has been a rise in racist attacks and sentiments against both Arabs and Jews, in light of the increasing hostilities in the Middle East.

Earlier in 1998, in an area of Germany a right wing racist party won an unprecedented number of votes.

In Austria, the Freedom Party was able to secure the majority of the cabinet posts. The party is an extreme far right party, whose leader, Jorg Heider, has been accused of sympathetic statements towards the Nazis. The European Union has reacted to this indicating that Austria’s participation may be in jeopardy. This Guardian Special Report has much more in-depth coverage.

In Italy, there are attempts to try and deal with the rise in undocumented immigrants from Tunisia. The reactions from the right wing have been labeled by some as being “openly racist”.

In 1997, Human Rights Watch noted that, “The U.K. has one of the highest levels of racially-motivated violence and harassment in Western Europe, and the problem is getting worse.” In April 1999, London saw two bombs explode in predominantly ethnic minority areas, in the space of one week, where a Nazi group has claimed responsibility. The summer of 2001 saw many race-related riots in various parts of northern England.

Spain has seen increased racial violence lately. The growing economy invites immigrants from North African countries such as Morocco. However, the poor conditions that immigrants have had to endure and the already racially charged region has led to friction and confrontations.

Greece has one of the worst records in the European Union for racism against ethnic minorities, according to the BBC. Anti-immigrant sentiment has long been high, especially against ethnic Albanians, who form the largest minority. Until the 1990s, the BBC notes, Greece had been an extremely homogenous society. With the fall of communism many immigrants from Eastern Europe came to Greece. Albanians especially have been targetted by a lot of racist sentiment. Some hostage taking by a few Albanians in recent years has not helped the situation.

So far, the above represents an incredibly tiny number of examples and details. Many, many more events haven’t been mentioned, as it is admittedly difficult to keep up with all the different items. For more details and up-to-date information, one web site to check out the UK-based Institute of Race Relations and their subsection attemping to document the rising support for the extreme-Right in local and central government in Europe, building on a platform of populist anti-immigrant policies.
This isn't a knock on anyone, but check out international football (Soccer to us Americans). Only in Europe do you have fans who openly display neo-Nazism, going so far as to construct banners which say "Go home monkey!", or berating players with racial slurs or even throwing items at certain players-- Even if said player plays for their team (Just ask Theirry Henry, as he and a few other minority players ran an add about open racism throughout Europe a couple of years back).

filtherton 10-27-2007 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
The difference is the scale of it. The 'white guilt' is about used up.

I think that there's an endless supply.


What i don't understand is why whitey A gets all worked up because he thinks that whitey B's got the white guilt. Okay, so whitey A wouldn't take down his halloween decoration, regardless of how much it reminded someone of how cheap life can be if you're an oppressed minority. Why does whitey A give a fuck if whitey B takes down the decoration? Does whitey A feel like whiteness isn't properly being represented by whitey B, and if so, who the fuck is whitey A to presume to know how to represent whiteness?

Ustwo 10-27-2007 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
I think that there's an endless supply.


What i don't understand is why whitey A gets all worked up because he thinks that whitey B's got the white guilt. Okay, so whitey A wouldn't take down his halloween decoration, regardless of how much it reminded someone of how cheap life can be if you're an oppressed minority. Why does whitey A give a fuck if whitey B takes down the decoration? Does whitey A feel like whiteness isn't properly being represented by whitey B, and if so, who the fuck is whitey A to presume to know how to represent whiteness?

I think Whitey A is fed up with Blacky C making a big deal about Whitey B.

I don't think many are pissed off with Whitey B taking it down, its the fact they felt coerced to for something so ridiculous that just seems so stupid.

The race card is getting quite old.

filtherton 10-27-2007 10:24 AM

I agree that the race card is getting old. I do think it odd that folks who would ostensibly complain about racism would rally in support of a perspective that thinks that black folks should just lighten up, it's like saying, "those fucking blacks need to quit being so racist." I imagine that if certain folks really thought the race card was getting old, the title of this thread wouldn't mention it at all.

You can't claim that the race card is getting old and claim that black folks need to lighten up. If you want race to go away, which, good luck, you might want to stop talking about it as if it is important.

Willravel 10-27-2007 10:33 AM

Cracka ass honkey.

Reese 10-27-2007 12:39 PM

I don't care if the hanging ghoul has an afro or some other relatively black dominate feature. It still doesn't necessarily make it racist. I think painting the ghoul white was more than enough to appease the people that were wrongly offended by it.

As for the thread title - Well, I kinda like it, It's definitely an attention grabber. Yeah it overgeneralizes things but until more black people start criticizing the organizations representing them, us white folk just have to assume that they agree with em. We folks of non-color are always stepping up and defending ourselves every time someone does or says something racist yet when someone like the NAACP cries racism over something stupid like the color of a Halloween decoration there's hardly no black people stepping up and saying, "it's just a fucking Halloween decoration!"

Heck if this Halloween decoration was the most racist thing in the country right now, I think we're doing pretty damn good... Too bad there's no REAL racism for the NAACP the focus on... /sarcasm.

Telluride 10-27-2007 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl
I think after the incident in Jena and so on, the country is very sensitive to this sort of thing.

The victim in the Jena case was a white kid. Are white people all over America freaking out about something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrklixx
So, do I see racism in this story.

You bet.

According to the article:




So this means that the preacher and the "black community leaders" are OK with the depictions of a murdered human, but the depictions of a murdered [b]black[/i] human are blatantly offensive and somehow more important than some ol' white guy takin' a knife to the gut.

Sounds like racism to me.

Awesome point! :thumbsup:

Cynthetiq 10-27-2007 12:59 PM

Interesting photobucket TOS'd my Nazareno photos since someone complained that it was racist.

http://cynthetiq.com/images/TOSVio.gif

So the NYTimes article had a photo and a description of the "prop"

http://cynthetiq.com/images/HG-00507...ictimPropb.gif
Quote:

Originally Posted by NYTimes.com
This Halloween, Man in Noose Wins a Reprieve   click to show 



http://cynthetiq.com/images/HG-00507...ictimPropa.gifhttp://cynthetiq.com/images/HG-00507...VictimProp.gif

I can see why they think it looks like a black man. Looks like a black man to me based on facial features...

Baraka_Guru 10-27-2007 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
A great many whiteys were annoyed with the anti-Halloween idiots as well, and the anti-Christmas idiots currently.

For the record, I'm not anti-Halloween, I'm pro-Samhain; I'm not anti-Christmas, I'm pro-Dies Natalis Solis Invicti

Telluride 10-27-2007 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I can see why they think it looks like a black man. Looks like a black man to me based on facial features...

It doesn't look black to me. It looks like a deformed person/thing of unidentifiable race who was set on fire or something. And then used as a yard decoration.

Ustwo 10-27-2007 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telluride
It doesn't look black to me. It looks like a deformed person/thing of unidentifiable race who was set on fire or something. And then used as a yard decoration.

Actually it does look like a black caricature to me.

If I just saw it randomly I wouldn't think it was racist or the like, but if you are the kind of person looking FOR racism I can see where you would find it here.

Strange Famous 10-27-2007 02:11 PM

Isnt the real question why ANYBODY would want to hang a fake corpse from their house - really regardless of what racial characteristics the body might have?

Telluride 10-27-2007 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Isnt the real question why ANYBODY would want to hang a fake corpse from their house - really regardless of what racial characteristics the body might have?

Because it's Halloween?

Strange Famous 10-27-2007 03:24 PM

and thats a good time to celebrate capital punishment?

All Hallows Eve used to mean something rather different.

Ustwo 10-27-2007 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
and thats a good time to celebrate capital punishment?

All Hallows Eve used to mean something rather different.

In the US it has a strong infusion of the Mexican 'dios de muertos', something I don't have a problem with.

Baraka_Guru 10-27-2007 03:36 PM

Except when you see things like a Black caricature hanging in someone's yard. Then it has a Tex-Mex feel to it.

Reese 10-27-2007 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
All Hallows Eve used to mean something rather different.


So did Christmas.

Strange Famous 10-27-2007 03:40 PM

well... if you want to celebrate the dead... I can see no reason to differentiate between black or white corpses, or anything else.

The model shown here does have the "racial" characteristics of an African imo, but I dont see it as a "racial" issue. A lot of people of a lot of people of a lot of ethnicity's have been hanged over the years.

But I would agree with all the people who questioned the original slant of the thread. The question isnt "black people" needing perspective...we are talking of individuals who some of us agree or disagree with, to characterize them by the colour of their skin, and then say all people of that shade of skin act this way... THIS is a racist comment. Hanging the model corpse, although revolting in my opinion, is hardly racist.

For someone to state that because some black people object to it, this is evidence that the "black race" should lighten up... this is a racist comment, and it deserves very strong criticism, as I can see it has already received.

Baraka_Guru 10-27-2007 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
For someone to state that because some black people object to it, this is evidence that the "black race" should lighten up... this is a racist comment, and it deserves very strong criticism, as I can see it has already received.

At least it's not as bad as saying "Black people need to be perfected."

Ustwo 10-27-2007 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
At least it's not as bad as saying "Black people need to be perfected."

Oddly no one responded to my explanation of that, and really using that here is out of context in how it was used there. :thumbsup:

Telluride 10-27-2007 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
and thats a good time to celebrate capital punishment?

All Hallows Eve used to mean something rather different.

Capital punishment? Give me a freakin' break. Would you complain about a Santa Claus display during Christmas? According to the story, he goes into peoples' homes and leaves presents for kids. That's trespassing, isn't it?

Strange Famous 10-27-2007 03:55 PM

Santa Claus never came into my house, mate

Telluride 10-27-2007 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Santa Claus never came into my house, mate

And monsters never existed, either Saying that hanging a monster thing on Halloween is promoting capital punishment is no different than saying that a Santa Claus display is promoting trespassing or even breaking and entering.

albania 10-27-2007 05:55 PM

Man am I late to this happy gathering. I’ll respond to the original post.

Your perceived injustice is nothing more than perceived in my opinion. I think the undertone of your OP was: where is the line drawn between racism and someone having delicate sensibilities? I’ll try to respond to that as best as I can. I don’t know where to draw the line but not in this case is what I come up with. I can’t rightly tell whether or not this family meant anything racist by what they did. From the facts I’d assume not. In the end though, this isn’t the main issue. The matter comes down to how the gesture was perceived. You can have racism that is a subtle dig, and why should people be subjected to it? Taking it down probably was a good idea. While it is no one’s job to appease delicate sensibilities everywhere, there is such a thing as a dignified response. If someone told me they were offended by something I was doing, that does not in any way define me, I would work to change that behavior if said behavior was public.

On a slightly different topic, what annoys me the most though, when dealing with racism, is white people who are so concerned with not being racist. Their behavior seems, to me, like nothing more than a grandiose pat on the back and in some sense I would think almost condescending to black people. It’s almost as if some people believe that with every act of racism black people must be reminded that there are white people who aren’t racist; I think they’re smart enough to figure it out. I imagine them protesting with picket signs that read I’m not a racist and a big arrow pointing down.

Fast Forward 10-28-2007 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're wrong. Europe is suffering from an alarming increase in racism

"Increasing"? Yes. But the rest of your post is foolishly naïve. The increase is world-wide. Take the blinders off.

flat5 10-28-2007 07:37 AM

about the picture posted above:

Because of some of the facial features it looks very much like a black man.
Anyone who puts this on their front lawn hates black people and is proud of it.

squeeeb 10-28-2007 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
One wonders where whitey was when his religious leaders were calling for a boycott of halloween because of how positively devilish it is.

assuming i am whitey in this case, then whitey was explaining to the other whitey morons that giving candy to kids dressed as batman isn't evil. halloween isn't evil at all, and they needed to not be idiots.

those born again christians need to lighten up as well.

Glory's Sun 10-28-2007 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flat5
about the picture posted above:

Because of some of the facial features it looks very much like a black man.
Anyone who puts this on their front lawn hates black people and is proud of it.

If they were proud of it they wouldn't have changed it or taken it down.

LazyBoy 10-28-2007 09:33 PM

The NAACP knows how to get support...controversy pays the bills ;)

-Will

flat5 10-29-2007 05:16 AM

..

hrandani 10-29-2007 05:20 AM

They can't lighten up dude it's their skin color. Man that's insensitive.

:p

Fast Forward 10-29-2007 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
(sigh)

Okay. Where is the hot-hot proof that Europe is a den of racists?

Any super-duper examples of bigotry in action? I wanna see it, smell it.

Rumors? Conjecture? Bullshit?

Yes: Bullshit

Only an idiot would deny that racism is on the increase. In Europe or anywhere else. It can depend upon supremist racists (of any colour) or the unemployed who detests foreigners taking “their” jobs. It can also depend on the increase of immigrants who refuse to integrate. Naturally, it’s a combination of it all.

But saying that Europe is “the most blatant, openly racist” (excuse the misquote please) is silly. The “ethnic cleansing” of Yugoslavia was a big fat cold slap in the face for all of us Europeans whether we come from the West or the East, that’s a fact. But tell me what country in the world has such a record of racist killings (on a daily basis) and rioting equal to the U.S. (if there is one) and I’ll show you a non-European country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani
They can't lighten up dude it's their skin color.

Am I allowed to laugh? Thank you ... :) :) :)

river_ratiii 10-30-2007 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog
It's not like we're talking about making a statement or observation that means something to you. It's not like you were making an expression of your right to free speech on some subject of personal/religious/political/etc. importance, and someone asked you to stop because it offended them. This isn't a war against free speech, it's a holiday decoration. If someone is so would up on a halloween decoration that they instantly go into hardcore-defense-of-my-rights mode, their priorities in life are seriously out of whack (unless we're talking about some decoration/religion thing, but then that's more about the religious aspect and not merely the decoration).

It might seem petty, but who gets to decide what specific "free expression" is important or not? The nice thing about the Constitution is that it's pretty clear; freedom of speech is NOT limited only to important issues.

The_Jazz 10-30-2007 11:37 AM

Freedom of speach is a bit of a red herring here. The authorities aren't involved, and until there's government action silencing one side or the other, the First Amendment, which is the guarantee of the freedom, has nothing to do with this situation.

Ustwo 10-30-2007 11:37 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...ng-071029.html

Quote:

Acclaimed skin-whitening studies from Ottawa raise racism concerns
Last Updated: Monday, October 29, 2007 | 10:40 AM ET
CBC News

Award-winning research by Ottawa biochemists into technology that makes dark skin fairer is renewing controversy about a type of cosmetic product worth billions in Asian markets.
Finally, the title of this thread can be fully realized.

river_ratiii 10-30-2007 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
(sigh)

Okay. Where is the hot-hot proof that Europe is a den of racists?

This article says racist attacks are up by 70 percent.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...c=worldupdates

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Freedom of speach is a bit of a red herring here. The authorities aren't involved, and until there's government action silencing one side or the other, the First Amendment, which is the guarantee of the freedom, has nothing to do with this situation.

The only reason this didn't go further with the "authorities" is that the police (in the first case) told the neighbors that no law was broken...but the subject did come up in that case. In the second article the mayor gets involved...WTF???? Seems like a little authoritarian pressure to me.

Baraka_Guru 10-30-2007 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
Finally, the title of this thread can be fully realized.

http://www.drmeronk.com/asian-eyelid.html

Menoman 10-30-2007 09:33 PM

black people need to lighten up???

Take a look at this entire thread. Change the name of the thread to "EVERYONE needs to lighten the fuck up"

bobdog 10-31-2007 02:05 AM

I find discussions like this one only seem to prolong racism in general. I know that it if something is wrong it should be highlighted but it can, sometimes, be counter productive to highlight every difference between points of view.

I only dislike or like very few people. That is because I have only got limited experience of most people. I, in my lifetime have only met perhaps 5 or 10 thousand people in the world, clearly a tiny fraction. This means that, to varying degrees, I can allow myself to form an opinion on some people. Everybody else, I can not comment on in any sensible way.

Taking this one step further, this means I cannot understand the motives of someone putting up a black (or white) effigy for Halloween. They may be doing it for fun or to make some racist point or because they are ignorant of the offence someone else may take. I am in no position to judge.

This means I can go about the world knowing that most people don't know me and whatever they do is not focussed at me so I don't need to be offended. I may be horrified, disgusted or delighted and pleased but I never, ever need to feel offended. (except if I know the person who did/said it).

I deliberately try not to be offended, so I understand squeeb's point about lightening up but I think this applies to everyone, not just 'black people' but squeeb, white people, christians, muslims and just about every category of people you can name.

Rant over.

Fast Forward 10-31-2007 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menoman
Change the name of the thread to "EVERYONE needs to lighten the fuck up"

Heh? Is that possible? What shade is "fuck", anyway. Hell, I don't even know what colour it is. :paranoid:

Plan9 10-31-2007 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdog
I find discussions like this one only seem to prolong racism in general. I know that it if something is wrong it should be highlighted but it can, sometimes, be counter productive to highlight every difference between points of view.

God damn if that isn't what I say about every racism discussion. Circle jerk.

In talking about it... we seem to perpetuate the bullshit. Stereotypes. Jokes.

How do we ignore the crapfest and educate the reasonable at the same time?

...

BTW: The skin color of fuck? Pink.

Menoman 10-31-2007 08:55 AM

or red depending on how hard you wanna fuck them

Fast Forward 11-01-2007 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
The skin color of fuck? Pink.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menoman
.... or red depending on how hard you wanna fuck them

You guys are even more disgusting than I am! :eek: :oogle: :)

xxxafterglow 11-01-2007 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nikki*
A proper way to do it would have been to make the monster Asian.

Then who would have come to his rescue?

What the fuck does that mean?

I'm w/ you Abaya. The struggle ain't over.


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