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It sounds like you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy for the behavior of others. One thing I've found is that if you have valid reason for not liking someone (i.e. Eddie Murphy because he sold out and isn't funny any more), the vast majority don't care. If you don't offer a valid reason, you leave it to the imagination of the listener, and with the history of racism in America, it's not hard to understand why many African Americans imagine the worst. |
So you people think that hanging a figure of a black man in your front yard should not be offensive to black people.
I am SO GLAD I don't live near you "people"! |
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The "hole" or perpetual loop-hole in your statement is that you can never supply "a valid reason" to someone who's not interested in the solution. They prefer calling you a racist. And in so doing keep frustrations high and the true subject of American racism at arms length. Racism was incorporated into America by way of the white racist but it thrives (today) by way of the black racist. Quote:
You see, Manic_Skafe - it IS an interesting subject. :) |
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There is a hole in my statement. I acknowledged it when I made it in the very first paragraph of my response. My experience with racism in the US, which is by its very nature more comprehensive and complete than yours, is that the folks that cry racism first are a much smaller number than the 98% that you claim. My experience is that those folks are about 10% of the total, and that it's not always the same folks that make the claim. Racism thrives today everywhere. Perhaps you only choose to see the Black against White racism, but it's there between Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, Indians and Pakistanis, Blacks and Koreans, Whites on Mexicans and any number of other groups that I could point out if I chose to think about it longer than the 10 seconds I devoted. As far as discussion of the problem goes, what the hell do you think this whole thread is about? |
Over-reaction—and why it serves no purpose to concentrate an entire tumultous history into an ordinary situation but to have something to scream about.
Learn to eschew the blinds that such scenarios create because of the up-in-arms discussion some people choose to bring forth to make a tangential that point that is not there. |
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And no, it looks nothing like a black man. In fact, there isn't even a noose around the "man's" head... it looks like they strung him up so he would appear to be running away from the zombies who are grabbing onto his ankles and trying to eat him. Edit -- I just now saw the second link in the OP, which is actually a different article with a different picture... where the figure is actually hanging from a rope. You can't really tell what color "skin" it has though, it is simply dressed in dark clothing. |
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there are two unrelated stories linked in the op.
it is baffling that this would have confused folk. there is an interesting subtext tho--the pseudo-objectivity of photographs-- the meanings assigned to particular decoration schemes are situationally driven----what of that situation do you see reproduced in a photo? anything? if nothing of the situation that drives interpretation is present in the photographs, then how are the photographs accurate depictions of what is happening in either of these places? and if they are not accurate because they do not and cannot reproduce the environment that shapes meaning-assignment, then they are pretty worthless as a basis for arriving at judgments about that situation. the only way that the photos can function is as evidence of a most fragmentary nature: they show that at a particular instant, the arrangement of objects within and around the frame was this way. meanings do not reside in objects. meanings are made by framing objects, linking them to other phenomena. that process--which is basically how we live in the world--does not photograph. but you know this, if you think about it. passivity with respect to information is not pretty: it is not smart, it is not interesting----it is abject. but maybe at some unwitting level, making of this stupid thread an exercise in abjection is a good thing. i really cant imagine anything more abject than the argument--which persists--that the problem with racism in america and its history is that it makes you feel maybe self-conscious about costume and decor choices for halloween. this just makes the abjection explicit. |
White people. Advice: perhaps you should take your own advice- lighten the fuck up. On a macro scale, the advantages of being in the majority generally far outweigh any possible slights that may or may not be inflicted upon you by either the individual or the collective will of those in the racial and cultural minority.
You will survive. Don't be oversensitive to the oversensitivity of others. Most nonwhites aren't out to get you, most nonwhites don't depend on intercultural disharmony for their livelihood, most nonwhites aren't responsible for you not getting that job, and most nonwhites aren't responsible for your nephew not getting into brown. Everyone. A question: Where does this reactive hypersensitivity on the part of some white folks come from? Is it just a tit-for-tat kind of thing, are they/you being oversensitive because it looks like fun? Who cares if somebody found a halloween decoration offensive and tried to raise a stink about it? Are they/you, in all their/your self righteous whiteness, a member of that community? No? Sure, it could be an over reaction, but why do they/you care? Do they/you get all huffy when a reverend of any race raises a stink about holloween decorations because they are satanic? No? Why does it matter? What exactly do they/you have on the line here? |
Man is frustrated.
Man makes hastily-worded statement. Audience is angered by semantics, despite understanding frustration. A stupid debate is born. |
Does this mean I have to take down my black bats?
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*cues that silly Slayer song entitled Guilty of Being White*
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Werewolves, zombies, vampires!
*gets sued for placing Vampires last* |
Some of the latter comments in this thread disturb me.
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The fact that the world is really like this disturbs me, man.
... "Racial superiority is a mere pigment of the imagination." ... Racism: How many generations will carry this crap in their heads? |
I mentioned nothing of (Perceived) racial superiority.
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Is "god hates fags" an educated guess? Is "all black people believe in ghosts" an educated guess? Is "all black men have huge cocks" and educated guess? I think that what you call educated guessing, i see as intellectual laziness. In any case, when dealing with actual people, i have found that it is generally in my best interest to treat people as individuals instead of making educated guesses about them based on superficial details. |
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is it a bad thing? well, for the irrational hatred of a group, yeah, i think it's not a healthy productive thing and fits in the "bad thing" category. for the "preconceived preference or idea" then no, it's not bad. i have a prejudice toward red wine, i don't like white wine, even though there are probably tasty white wines out there. i don't see that as a bad thing. i'm not trying to put words in your mouth or tell you what you meant so i will only assume you were leaning toward "preconcieved preference" version of prejudice. |
Read my post again if you're not sure of what I meant by it. I state clearly that prejudice isn't negative. Racism is negative. Prejudice is a word that is now negative in our society even though its definition is quite literally gathering data about something and making an educated guess.
Thinking a black thug on the street is a criminal isn't racist because most black thugs on the street are criminals. It might be prejudice but how is that a bad thing? When I see a black thug on the street, should I say, "look at that lawyer?" I don't have data saying that he's a lawyer. I do have data that give him a huge chance of being a criminal. So me using data that correllates with a person is immoral? BTW I ask anyone who thinks this thread isn't going anywhere to take another look. This is a huge issue in our world and talking about it helps everyone understand their own feelings and point of views better. I'd rather be talking about issues like this than Britney's custody battle. |
I know my Slayer, dude. Minor Threat isn't really in my palette. Yet.
... Thread: I get the feeling that Europe doesn't suffer from this degree of idiocy. |
crompsin: you're wrong about europe. go ask north africans (tunisians, morrocans) how they feel walking around in france. i think in some ways, europe tends to be more strongly nationalist rather than racist, given the closer proximity of the various countries...but they still find ridiculous ways to hate each other.
i almost wrote something earlier in this thread, but deleted the post. all i can say is that i find myself echoing skafe when i read this: we did this with a frat party last year that had some sort of offensive halloween decorations, and the conclusions are basically the same. i don't have the energy or time to get intensely involved in this particular discussion...i do think, however, that when hanging things by nooses in the united states, one might pay particular attention to the potential racial overtones. whatever...best of luck with it. |
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I do feel that the US has zero sense of nationalism in comparison to Europe simply based on the proximity issue you mentioned. I feel that something has to fill the "Us Vs. Them" void that the US has without a tangible sense of nationalism (no, those dumbass Power of Pride stickers don't really grab me)... and racism is that disgusting monster. Example: Illegal aliens (Quick! Blame all the Mexicans!) is our current sticky issue. |
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I think your theory doesn't quite cut it. IL is right, the people in the US almost go to comical lengths to not appear racist. Other nations seem to have no problem with it. |
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(sigh)
Okay. Where is the hot-hot proof that Europe is a den of racists? Any super-duper examples of bigotry in action? I wanna see it, smell it. Rumors? Conjecture? Bullshit? I like to talk as much as anybody, but I typically qualify my substandard babble with opinion disclaimers like "I think" and "I feel" so as to not appear as witty as Ben Stein (who knows pretty much everything and who is probably racist too, right?) Where da proof at, yo? ... I find it hard to believe that Europe is as bad as the US. I mean... we're so good at everything that is destroying the future of mankind and the planet. *gets run over by a H2 with confederate flag sticker* Quote:
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I dont recall what part of CA, but I know a couple & a single mother who both said the same thing.......along the higher cost of living, natural disasters, and overpopulation known all to well as CA trademarks.......:) *Gets run over by an H2 with a "We Love Neil Young Songs" bumbersticker* |
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If I saw a Black youth wearing baggy pants, a basketball jersey, and a bandanna, I might think an array of things. I would think foremost that he is participating in urban culture by what he is wearing. I might think he breaks the law, specifically because of the gangster rap culture he might be playing up to. But I would also look at him as a common phenomenon. Lots of youths dress like that. I would look at him (depending on his age) as a student who could very well one day become a lawyer. I would look at him as a poet, possibly. He could be anything, really. |
This thread is all over the place. Somehow... nationalism, the Cold War, and the French are part of the discussion now.
It's interesting (though not really productive) to see where the conversation leads just so there's something to keep talking about. Manic_Skafe is exactly right. The way these threads meander out into completely unrelated topics is precisely because these topics get stale quickly. A topic comes up every so often... and when all the same things have been said, it becomes a game of continuing to talk longer than the other people even though no one actually has anything to say. I'm not saying people posting have nothing to say- I'm saying it seems they have nothing to say on this topic anymore. It's pretty much run its course unless someone comes in and breathes some new life into it. |
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No matter how you cut it your post said nothing more than "I know lots and you know nothing so I know better than you" - now that's what I really call "an invalid reason". You're getting very tedius now and I'm getting tired of you quickly. :shakehead: |
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... I think all the pigments need to relax a little. White people need to stop being so Wite-Out (drum crash) over all their possibly offensive stuff and perhaps black people need to realize that despite the nature of the world we live in... optimism is the only thing that will change the self-perpetuating state we live in where white guy does something stupid, black community reacts, animosity goes back to square one. More people should listen to Bill Cosby's stance on race / community. |
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Your statement about Europe is bewildering. You must have heard it at the bar in the bowling lanes on Saturday night. :eek: Racism in Europe: YES Europe being "the most openly racist than any other place in the world": NOT EVEN CLOSE |
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This is a symptom of what has become a mass cultural denial in the US.
My local news channels won't even give race when they are giving the description of a subject at large. A 6 foot tall male, approximately 180 pounds, wearing a blue t-shirt..... I mean in an area with a huge black, hispanic, white and asian population what good would race be looking for a criminal? A few years back Philadelphia put the pictures of 32 wanted murders who were known to be at large on the front page of the major paper (don't recall which one). All were black but one was hispanic. Black leaders were up in arms at this obviously racist display, the paper who's editor was black, apologized. We are talking about the known murders that are free in Philadelphia and the local black leadership was more worried about the perception, than catching men who may kill again. I think this sort of idiocy is what a lot of people are upset about, and why whitey gets so worked up over something like the original story. Enough is enough. |
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One wonders where whitey was when his religious leaders were calling for a boycott of halloween because of how positively devilish it is. Nothing makes for better theater than responding to oversensitivity with oversensitivity. |
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The difference is the scale of it. The 'white guilt' is about used up. |
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What i don't understand is why whitey A gets all worked up because he thinks that whitey B's got the white guilt. Okay, so whitey A wouldn't take down his halloween decoration, regardless of how much it reminded someone of how cheap life can be if you're an oppressed minority. Why does whitey A give a fuck if whitey B takes down the decoration? Does whitey A feel like whiteness isn't properly being represented by whitey B, and if so, who the fuck is whitey A to presume to know how to represent whiteness? |
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I don't think many are pissed off with Whitey B taking it down, its the fact they felt coerced to for something so ridiculous that just seems so stupid. The race card is getting quite old. |
I agree that the race card is getting old. I do think it odd that folks who would ostensibly complain about racism would rally in support of a perspective that thinks that black folks should just lighten up, it's like saying, "those fucking blacks need to quit being so racist." I imagine that if certain folks really thought the race card was getting old, the title of this thread wouldn't mention it at all.
You can't claim that the race card is getting old and claim that black folks need to lighten up. If you want race to go away, which, good luck, you might want to stop talking about it as if it is important. |
Cracka ass honkey.
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I don't care if the hanging ghoul has an afro or some other relatively black dominate feature. It still doesn't necessarily make it racist. I think painting the ghoul white was more than enough to appease the people that were wrongly offended by it.
As for the thread title - Well, I kinda like it, It's definitely an attention grabber. Yeah it overgeneralizes things but until more black people start criticizing the organizations representing them, us white folk just have to assume that they agree with em. We folks of non-color are always stepping up and defending ourselves every time someone does or says something racist yet when someone like the NAACP cries racism over something stupid like the color of a Halloween decoration there's hardly no black people stepping up and saying, "it's just a fucking Halloween decoration!" Heck if this Halloween decoration was the most racist thing in the country right now, I think we're doing pretty damn good... Too bad there's no REAL racism for the NAACP the focus on... /sarcasm. |
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Interesting photobucket TOS'd my Nazareno photos since someone complained that it was racist.
http://cynthetiq.com/images/TOSVio.gif So the NYTimes article had a photo and a description of the "prop" http://cynthetiq.com/images/HG-00507...ictimPropb.gif Quote:
http://cynthetiq.com/images/HG-00507...ictimPropa.gifhttp://cynthetiq.com/images/HG-00507...VictimProp.gif I can see why they think it looks like a black man. Looks like a black man to me based on facial features... |
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If I just saw it randomly I wouldn't think it was racist or the like, but if you are the kind of person looking FOR racism I can see where you would find it here. |
Isnt the real question why ANYBODY would want to hang a fake corpse from their house - really regardless of what racial characteristics the body might have?
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and thats a good time to celebrate capital punishment?
All Hallows Eve used to mean something rather different. |
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Except when you see things like a Black caricature hanging in someone's yard. Then it has a Tex-Mex feel to it.
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So did Christmas. |
well... if you want to celebrate the dead... I can see no reason to differentiate between black or white corpses, or anything else.
The model shown here does have the "racial" characteristics of an African imo, but I dont see it as a "racial" issue. A lot of people of a lot of people of a lot of ethnicity's have been hanged over the years. But I would agree with all the people who questioned the original slant of the thread. The question isnt "black people" needing perspective...we are talking of individuals who some of us agree or disagree with, to characterize them by the colour of their skin, and then say all people of that shade of skin act this way... THIS is a racist comment. Hanging the model corpse, although revolting in my opinion, is hardly racist. For someone to state that because some black people object to it, this is evidence that the "black race" should lighten up... this is a racist comment, and it deserves very strong criticism, as I can see it has already received. |
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Santa Claus never came into my house, mate
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Man am I late to this happy gathering. I’ll respond to the original post.
Your perceived injustice is nothing more than perceived in my opinion. I think the undertone of your OP was: where is the line drawn between racism and someone having delicate sensibilities? I’ll try to respond to that as best as I can. I don’t know where to draw the line but not in this case is what I come up with. I can’t rightly tell whether or not this family meant anything racist by what they did. From the facts I’d assume not. In the end though, this isn’t the main issue. The matter comes down to how the gesture was perceived. You can have racism that is a subtle dig, and why should people be subjected to it? Taking it down probably was a good idea. While it is no one’s job to appease delicate sensibilities everywhere, there is such a thing as a dignified response. If someone told me they were offended by something I was doing, that does not in any way define me, I would work to change that behavior if said behavior was public. On a slightly different topic, what annoys me the most though, when dealing with racism, is white people who are so concerned with not being racist. Their behavior seems, to me, like nothing more than a grandiose pat on the back and in some sense I would think almost condescending to black people. It’s almost as if some people believe that with every act of racism black people must be reminded that there are white people who aren’t racist; I think they’re smart enough to figure it out. I imagine them protesting with picket signs that read I’m not a racist and a big arrow pointing down. |
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about the picture posted above:
Because of some of the facial features it looks very much like a black man. Anyone who puts this on their front lawn hates black people and is proud of it. |
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those born again christians need to lighten up as well. |
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The NAACP knows how to get support...controversy pays the bills ;)
-Will |
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They can't lighten up dude it's their skin color. Man that's insensitive.
:p |
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Only an idiot would deny that racism is on the increase. In Europe or anywhere else. It can depend upon supremist racists (of any colour) or the unemployed who detests foreigners taking “their” jobs. It can also depend on the increase of immigrants who refuse to integrate. Naturally, it’s a combination of it all. But saying that Europe is “the most blatant, openly racist” (excuse the misquote please) is silly. The “ethnic cleansing” of Yugoslavia was a big fat cold slap in the face for all of us Europeans whether we come from the West or the East, that’s a fact. But tell me what country in the world has such a record of racist killings (on a daily basis) and rioting equal to the U.S. (if there is one) and I’ll show you a non-European country. Quote:
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Freedom of speach is a bit of a red herring here. The authorities aren't involved, and until there's government action silencing one side or the other, the First Amendment, which is the guarantee of the freedom, has nothing to do with this situation.
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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...ng-071029.html
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http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...c=worldupdates Quote:
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black people need to lighten up???
Take a look at this entire thread. Change the name of the thread to "EVERYONE needs to lighten the fuck up" |
I find discussions like this one only seem to prolong racism in general. I know that it if something is wrong it should be highlighted but it can, sometimes, be counter productive to highlight every difference between points of view.
I only dislike or like very few people. That is because I have only got limited experience of most people. I, in my lifetime have only met perhaps 5 or 10 thousand people in the world, clearly a tiny fraction. This means that, to varying degrees, I can allow myself to form an opinion on some people. Everybody else, I can not comment on in any sensible way. Taking this one step further, this means I cannot understand the motives of someone putting up a black (or white) effigy for Halloween. They may be doing it for fun or to make some racist point or because they are ignorant of the offence someone else may take. I am in no position to judge. This means I can go about the world knowing that most people don't know me and whatever they do is not focussed at me so I don't need to be offended. I may be horrified, disgusted or delighted and pleased but I never, ever need to feel offended. (except if I know the person who did/said it). I deliberately try not to be offended, so I understand squeeb's point about lightening up but I think this applies to everyone, not just 'black people' but squeeb, white people, christians, muslims and just about every category of people you can name. Rant over. |
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In talking about it... we seem to perpetuate the bullshit. Stereotypes. Jokes. How do we ignore the crapfest and educate the reasonable at the same time? ... BTW: The skin color of fuck? Pink. |
or red depending on how hard you wanna fuck them
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I'm w/ you Abaya. The struggle ain't over. |
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