abaya

The massive protests and resulting crackdown has been top-of-the-hour news for the entire last week here in Oslo, Norway... I'm surprised there hasn't been a thread about this yet. (And no, I'm not going to call it Myanmar.)

To see thousands of crimson-robed Buddhist monks marching in the streets so boldly is incredible... one has to understand the status of monks in Southeast Asian society. These monks have balls of steel, if you ask me, but I just wonder what good any of it is really going to do. They are doing so much to get the world's attention, and they have our attention... but for what?

I'm not going to sum up the details here, since I assume you all have access to various online news sources, but I did want to post this piece from a recent editorial about the events, from the Seattle Times.
I hate the fact that because the US (and most of the West) has no real interest in Burma, that they are just going to sit there and say, "Uh, please use UTMOST RESTRAINT, and stuff. Thank you." What the fuck is that going to do? Here, yet again, is a grass-roots movement for democracy, exactly what the US is supposed to care so much about (and supposedly our justification for intervening in Iraq, among other places)... but we all know that nobody really gives a shit.

Sure, we'll sit around and watch it on the news, maybe some hippies among us will sport a red shirt this weekend in solidarity (yes, I've seen a group on Facebook for this very cause), but then what? Life will go on, as usual, in Burma. Oooh, sanctions, how scary... as if that's going to make the military junta think twice about crushing their own citizens, after how many years of treating them like shit. The whole thing pisses me off... that we have to resort to hoping that CHINA will do something to slap Burma's hand? Yeah, right.

Just wondering what you all think. Maybe this belongs in Politics. But I just want to get it on the boards somewhere, at least.

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JumpinJesus

I did see a quick blurb about this on the evening news. You're right. Since the only thing we know, generally, about them comes from "One Night In Bangkok," there is so little interest. I'm on my way to work, so I'll comment more later.

But, uh, did you just say you were in Oslo?

Who are you, Carmen San Diego?

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abaya

So this is not going wall-to-wall on US news stations? I'm just curious, because I've seen it on the front page of the online Seattle Times, and it's all over CNN, so I assumed everyone was seeing it as much as I was. I think this is the 11th or 12th day of protests so far, so it's not like breaking news or anything... but it's been on at 8am, 9am, etc every day that we've been here.

Hehe. Ktspktsp has a business training course here in Oslo for the week, so we're checking out Norway while we can (we're spending this weekend at 70 degrees latitude!). This is our banner year for European travel... but more about that in my journal, later.

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mixedmedia

Unfortunately for most of the world, with the exception of the Holocaust perhaps (the ending of which just happened to coincide with our interests), intervention never seems to come where it is needed most. I've been watching this develop with a dreadful sense of familiarity.

I don't watch television news so I couldn't tell you what the coverage is like, but it has been pretty prominently featured on the MSN and NYT websites.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

QuasiMondo

My question then is what would you have the western world do? What does the west have to force the Junta's hand? I've thought about this for a bit, and maybe it's because I'm too unimaginative, but I don't see many options out there. Political isolation? They've done a fine job cutting themselves off. Military invasion? Too extreme. Peacekeeping force? Has that ever worked?

To be honest, if the west can't even be bothered with Darfur, what makes you think they'll care about Burma?

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-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

abaya

Okay, I guess I don't watch TV news much either (in Iceland we only have two channels anyway, neither of which are international news ones), but since we're in a hotel in Oslo with cable, I've had it on more than usual... and I'm just astounded by the images. This is one time when I've been glad to be watching TV news, because it's phenomenal what coverage they've been able to "smuggle" out of the country via the internet. Although today, apparently the gov't has cut the internet lines, so there won't be much more coming out (and just as the violent crackdown has gotten underway, too). Uggh.

You know, just once, I'd like to see a Western country DO something about decent people suffering (especially for "democracy," if that's what we're supposed to care so much about) in a country that lacks our economic interest. Instead, they just get seen/portrayed as "brown people killing themselves in fucked up countries," at least from my extremely cynical viewpoint on the matter. I'd like to think that something like the killing fields (Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, 1970s) would never happen again in this day and age, but nope. No one gives a fuck. Darfur, anyone?

Here it is again, from Hotel Rwanda... it was my signature at one point, last year when Israel was bombing the shit out of Lebanon and once again, all that the powers could be said was: "Uhh, use extreme restraint. That's all."

Paul Rusesabagina: I am glad that you have shot this footage and that the world will see it. It is the only way we have a chance that people might intervene.

Jack: Yeah and if no one intervenes, is it still a good thing to show?

Paul Rusesabagina: How can they not intervene when they witness such atrocities?

Jack: I think if people see this footage they'll say, "oh my God that's horrible," and then go on eating their dinners.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
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--Khalil Gibran

Charlatan

JJ, Bangkok is in Thailand...


The west isn't going to be able to do much there. The real work needs to be done by the ASEAN nations. Interestingly they managed to get the Myanmar government to sign onto an agreement to human rights clause in the last ASEAN summit.

It was a move in the right direction but it wasn't enough.

Now that the military has killed a German and a Japanese journalist, perhaps Japan (at least) might make some stronger rumblings.

In the end, I am afraid that no one will do anything, just like they did nothing when 3000 were killed for protesting in the late 90s.

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squeeeb

i guess we *could* get involved. but then we are already spread pretty damn thin with iraqistan. we don't have enough people to send to do anything but watch what happens, and troop deployment costs money that people don't want to spend. also, i would expect everyone to see this as a "bush invades another country" type of story and spin it as such...

what about the pathetically mismanaged and impotent U.N.? isn't this a job for them? they were useless in somalia, perhaps they can go be useless helping out the burmese? (i don't want to threadjack, i hate the u.n., but isn't this thier baliwick?)

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BadNick

I would say it's one of the largest issues in the news right now. During the last week or so, every time I turn to news reports I hear about this ...I mean "news" not show biz. This morning I heard a good report on NPR, I think it was BBC based, including interviews with a Myanmar news media person, a peaceful demonstration/political process expert from NYC, they played the official Myanmar government English language radio broadcast version of the events; it left me with what I think is some insight into what might be going on in the background/underground as far as reorganizing and continuing the peaceful revolution until the change the people want happens.

abaya

Sorry, you posted while I was typing, but man... I dunno. I guess it's just so hypocritical, you know, that we can have all the motivation in the world to storm into Iraq and spend trillions of dollars on a war there over several years, all to "free the people" and give them democracy, when there's TONS of people needing to be freed in other countries, and working HARD on their own effort to be freed, and we just say, "Oh, please use restraint..." because they don't have anything we want.

I think I'm really reacting to that line more than anything, probably because every world leader who has been on TV news (addressing the UN, mostly) has used this line... and what the hell does it mean? USE RESTRAINT? They're a military junta! Christ. We are the ones who have to restrain them, with force, if you ask me. Or something more than words and sanctions... I don't know.

Late 80s, but yeah... the difference is that back then, people might have gotten away with saying, "Oh, I didn't know about this," since there were only phone lines and maybe some news pieces leaking out of the situation. But with the internet, I've just been floored by how much coverage I'm seeing about this... and yet, so little reaction. I'm not just talking about the US, but certainly the hypocrisy bullshit stinks highest from there... but yes, where is the UN? Western Europe? Maybe ASEAN, but can they really do anything? Do they have any force?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
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--Khalil Gibran

QuasiMondo

And that's the key. There are no interests in Myanmar/Burma. Sending US troops, even if they're tied in with a UN peacekeeping force (which the federal govenment will never agree to in the first place unless they're running the show) will sooner or later conjure up images of East Timor, Haiti, and most importantly, Somalia. Plus, with American troops so close to China, the Chinese government is bound to see this as a threat, and who knows what kind of diplomatic problems that'll set off.

The way I see it, anything worse than sanctions will affect the citizens worse than it'll affect the Junta, and the use of force will be an outright disaster.

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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

mixedmedia

There's nothing wrong with seeing the hypocrisy and being angry about it, abaya. It's quite possible you will never come to terms with the fact that the world just isn't an altruistic place. No matter how hard governments and the media try to convince you of it. I haven't.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

If the US intervenes, the world calls us nasty names.
If we do nothing, the world complains we do nothing.

The rest of the free world reminds me of a petulant teens relationship to a parent.

World: I hate you, you don't let me do anything, you have no business going into my room, they are MY friends, you have no right to tell me who I can hang out with!

followed by

World: Daddy, you've got to help me, I don't know what to do! I was at a party and I crashed the car and someone got hurt and now they have me at the station, please Daddy I'm so scared!

Are the people of Burma worse off than the people of Iraq were?

Our plate is full, let one of the Western socialist powerhouses deal with it, I'm sure they have the funds and will.

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mixedmedia

The people of Burma are risking everything to fight against oppression. Yes, I think that makes a big difference.

Ustwo, let me get this straight. Are you suggesting we went into Iraq primarily to free people from oppression, rather than to nurture and protect our interests in the region?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

abaya

I'm not saying that the US has any right to be the world police. What I am saying is that if we are going to spew forth all kinds of bullshit rhetoric about "spreading democracy" and "freedom" and using that as a justification for starting quite clearly one of the most useless wars in history, then dammit, why don't we follow through and BE CONSISTENT about it. Which means acting on behalf of anyone fighting for democracy, anywhere, regardless of where our interests lie. This just goes to show you how much we really care about democracy, if you ask me.

Once again, case in point regarding Israel in Lebanon last summer... after all that hoo-ha about how great the Lebanese people were (after Hariri's assassination in Feb. 2005), marching and demanding democracy, kicking Syria out... Go Lebanon! But come summer 2006... oooh wait, sorry, if it's Israel bombing you, we don't care if you're risking your lives to demand democracy, we're just gonna let 1,000+ of your people die. Yeah, sorry 'bout that... umm, use restraint and stuff, okay?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Ustwo

You get that from what I posted where?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

well, this...
I realize we're all just talking fast here, but I would think this is only relevant if you were comparing apples and apples.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

abaya

You're comparing a drunken, irresponsible frat boy to a situation where thousands of monks (you have got to understand their place in that society to even grasp what this means to them) have been risking their lives every day, and thousands more citizens are joining them, also risking their lives, just for a chance at living without a military junta's knives at their throats?

C'mon, Ustwo... I know you have your opinions, but don't tell me you've adopted the attitude of, "oh yay, more brown people getting themselves killed in a fucked-up third-world country, change the channel please..."

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Charlatan

Duh... typo. Yes, the 80s.

ASEAN has more diplomatic ties with Burma than does the West. The only other nation with enough influence to force this issue is China but they have a very firm stance on non-interference into other nation's internal affairs.

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- Old Man Luedecke

abaya

Well, hey. At least they're consistent.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

You know, I love it when threads move this fast. Especially threads with subjects like this. We need more of them.

There's not really much the US or Europe can do at this point that they're not already doing. Invasion is a non-starter for more reasons that I can count. The Junta will never allow a peacekeeping force inside the borders, so the only alternative seems to me to be an uninvited force. So that's off the table.

Really, if the Chinese and Indians stop selling arms to the Burmese, things would eventually fall apart. If the Army has a diminished ability to keep itself in place, then the ability of the people to seize power increases. That pattern has repeated itself over and over in the last 100 years. It's not an immediate fix, but it's the one I know might work.

Going back to what can be done now, I think that the West's response actually has more effect than folks realize. NPR interviewed a Burmese leader from the 80's who's now living in the US, and he thinks that sactions keep the movement motivated to keep going. It's an interesting theory, anyway.

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QuasiMondo

And how is this going to be done without making things worse? Spreading democracy and freedom is backfiring in Iraq. It backfired when we pushed Israel to allow the Palestinans to hold elections, who then voted Hamas into power. There's a name for what you want the US to do, it's called Nation Building, and in most cases, it doesn't work as intended.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Charlatan

The differences between Iraq and Burma are huge.

Iraq is Yugoslavia. A nation made up of waring groups that was held together by Saddam's iron fist. The US was not prepared to be that iron fist when they removed Saddam's.

Burma is like Germany in WWII. There is a general populace that is ready to embrace modernity, democracy and new levels of freedom. All that is needed is to remove the boot of the Junta from their collective necks.

I would advocate for removal of the Junta.

Heck, they even have an elected leader just waiting to step into the power vacuum, Aung San Suu Kyi. She's under house arrest in Rangoon.

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Infinite_Loser

Let Burma fight amongst itself. It should be allowed to work out it's own problems without other countries meddling it it's affairs. History shows that getting involved in another region's/country's business only serves to escalate the fighting.

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Charlatan

Is that what they said when France assisted the US in the revolution?

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

Sigh, why do people see only what they believe they should see.

My example was not of the Burmese people, but of the people in other Western nations who now want us to come help the Burmese (while doing almost nothing to help themselves) and bitch if we don't, or call us hypocrites for not freeing everyone.

If this is big news in Norway like you say, shouldn't the EU be sending troops? Why turn to the US for leadership when all the rest of the free world does is bitch about US leadership?

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Infinite_Loser

*Doesn't understand your question*

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Charlatan

France involved itself in the war that saw the Colonists go up against British rule... History suggests other than what you are suggesting.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

Mmmmmm you know did France have some self interest in helping the revolutionaries out?

Since it seems if you gain anything from helping someone out it makes you somehow 'wrong' in these things.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Infinite_Loser

I fully well realize that the French involved themselves in the American Revolution, but they did so only because it served their self-interests (Which, mind you, had absolutely nothing to do with 'goodwill' or 'peacekeeping').

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Charlatan

I didn't suggest that there wasn't self interest. Just that one nation poked their nose in and the results were not all that bad...


Personally, I don't think the US should involve itself in Burma's business. It should be China and ASEAN that stick their nose in and help the people of Burma.

However, given the rhetoric of Bush around being a supporter of democracy and willing to squash oppressive regimes, etc. Burma seems perfect. Sadly, Bush was just speaking spin.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Charlatan

As for peacekeeping... peacekeeping should only take place when there is actually peace to keep.

Cyprus or Yugoslavia come to mind.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

That will end well.

Edit: and I'll add, exactly how many millions of people do you need to free before it is no longer 'speaking spin'?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

history only "says" one thing when you dont know about it.

anyway---there is a strange consequence of 24/7 tv coverage and the ability to present footage of demos and repression in realtime, which is that much that happens in the way of everyday brutality that spectators might encounter in real time (as opposed to 30 years ago, when this sort of thing would have been maybe the topic of newspaper articles written a day or two after the fact) seems to call for Responses from Someone simply because--well---you get to see the footage.

the burmese military junta is extremely brutal and has been for most of its-what 35 years?--in power. while the repression of these protests over the past 24 hours is deplorable, what is going on pales in comparison with
the systematic use of the military to maintain itself in power, a glimpse of which surfaced across the Unocal case of the laste 1980s and the symbolic problems created by keeping aung san suu kyi under house arrest for something like a decade.

so you might wonder why nothing has "been done" about the junta.
it's hard to say.
but you might look at the labels of your eddie bauer apparel for example, if you've purchased shirts from them over the past couple years, and see where they are made.
let's see: repressive military junta, no tolerance for opposition political or trade union, a decimated economy---->CHEAP LABOR----->hmm.

just a thought.

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Charlatan

I know I started it, but let's not derail this conversation to beat a dead horse.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

QuasiMondo

China is the 800 lb gorilla in this room. Any attempts to remove the Junta by outside influences will be seen as a threat by Beijing. They shot down a UN resolution that called on the Junta to improve their human rights record. It's not as easy as getting some countries in and tossing the Junta out. Again, China will see it as a threat. Options are limited. Bush can't do anything. The only one that can put pressure on them is China, and they're not going to.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

roachboy

o come on---its not like the junta only just showed up in burma: it has been in power for 35 years---YEARS--and it got to power and stays in power by way of these same methods--but often exercised with greater brutality because away from 24/7 tv factoid transmission.

this isnt happening in a vacuum and the obstacles to its removal go well beyond china.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Infinite_Loser

It's hard to keep up with your posts sometimes so... Huh?

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mixedmedia

I think he means that the deeper you delve into events of the past, the more fractured and unique they become and are thereby less useful as a means to illuminate the present....or something to that effect

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

what mm said is basically what i meant, il

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite