Intense1

Yikes! Did Sadaam get this bad of a send off on TPF when he was hanged?

You'd think Falwell himself killed thousands of people and deprived a whole nation of their democratic rights as human beings....

Listen, as a Christian, I never agreed with JF and his moral majority. It reeked of pharisee-ism and so not what I believe Christ would have done. His group focussed on politics instead of humanity, and caring for the poor, which is what I believe Jesus would do.

But to infer that he is basically like Osama bin Laden in his fundamentalism?

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Charlatan

You see, that is just the point. It can be argued that he was just as bad a bin Laden.

He was a vile charlatan who not only conned people out of their money but influenced people in power, either directly or through influencing his followers, to do heinous things.

There is one key difference between Falwell (and his type) and bin Laden. The laws of the US prevented him from going "to far". Put him in a lawless culture and he would have been just as likely to do far worse than he did.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Intense1

Charlatan - "Just as bad as bin Laden"? WTF?

Never heard it said that JF sent 19 followers to hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings, killing 3000.

You say he "conned people out of money" - where's your evidence of that? Many Christians who cannot go to church themselves (due to illness or inability to physically go) watched him on TV and received spiritual guidance from him. So they sent a "tithe" to his ministry, because scripture asks of us to give to the work of the Lord, out of our abundance.

Yes, yes, yes, there are those who cheat the poor in the name of God by asking them to send their dollars to support "God's work". I know this, and I, personally, abhor those who use "ministry" as an open tap for funds.

And the whole "inspire those in power to do heinous things" - you are, if I might respectfully suggest, projecting a political power upon him that, in recent years, I do not believe he had.

Yes, his statements about AIDS was appalling. His statements about Muslims also, appalling. Yet he never raised an army himself to go out and physically fight anyone. Picket at abortion clinics, yes. (do not personally agree with that) But he never ever (that I know of) told any anti-abortion followers to pick up a gun and shoot anyone, like that idiot who is in the news nowadays (can't remember his name).

Yeeesh, comparing JF to bin Laden.....

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Halx

Intense1, I recommend for you the movie "Marjoe"

Netflix summary:
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe

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Intense1

Hal - no self-respecting Christian nowadays has any good feelings toward Marjoe. He was a money-grubbing fraud. A term that I might (if I weren't trying to be charitable) confer upon many televangelists nowadays.

If I see someone asking for money in the name of God on TV nowadays, I immediately question their motives. Ministry - that is true ministry of God - gets funded somehow, and often it is by miraculous means. I myself have been the recipient of such miracles when I was in ministry, and I never went on tv to ask for it.

Sometimes ministry is funded by folks going out and actually getting a paying job. I love these ministries, since it takes money motives out of the equation.

As for pastors whose sermons are telecast - if they don't have half sermon, half asking for money, then I'm ok with them. It does take mega bucks to have a telecast, and it is totally reasonable (spiritually) to ask that those who are consistently ministered to by that broadcast ministry to donate to it.

Like TFP. (BTW - wish I had a grand or two to slip you, Hal. I've enjoyed TFP and once I get an actual paying job - instead of just caring for my mom - then you'll get some of it. )

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Halx

My point in recommending it to you was that the only difference between Marjoe and Falwell is that Marjoe admitted to being a fraud. He still did all the same things.

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Intense1

Hal - he "did all the same things". Like what?

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Charlatan

A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist.

There is no equivocation on this.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Intense1

Charlatan - but there's fundamentalists (Billy Graham) and fundamentalists (Osama bin Laden).

Never saw Billy call forth an army of hate.

I believe, if I might suggest, you are confusing "fundamentalist" with "radical".

And just because someone is a "radical" Christian, it does not make them dangerous to others. Unless these "others" are afraid of the Christian message.

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Charlatan

This is a man who said 9/11 was god's punishment, that AIDs is not just god's punishment of homosexuals but of those that would tolerate homosexuality.

This is a man that supports the worst elements of Israel in belief that he can bring about the rapture and Armageddon.

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- Old Man Luedecke

Intense1

(note to self - rediscover how to do the whole quote thingy)

Charlatan, he may have said those things, and if he did (I know about the AIDS/homosexual thing, and can imagine the whole Israel/Armageddon thing) then I can only say, as a CHRISTIAN, that I disagree with him. I know several other Christians who also disagree with him. Some are on TV.

But he never EVER called forth an army to rise up and kill either AIDS victims, Homosexuals or those opposed to Israel (as far as I know). The Israel thing is a biblical belief that many Baptists hold (and Charismatics as well) that says "ISRAEL IS BLESSED OF GOD", so don't do anything against them.

It's very complicated to go into - requires quotes and such - but just because he believed in this does not make him a killer.

Now Osama, there's a killer for ya.

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powerclown

The above is like saying child sodomy, cannibalism and incest are the norm absent any so-called laws. Same goes for just about every human "deviance" or extreme one might come up with. That "one key difference" you mention makes all the difference. The fact of the matter is America *is* a lawful society, and there *is* separation between church and state, so religious extremists like Falwell are a sideshow, not the the law of the land. It is the height of nonsense - and par for certain lefties - to compare Jerry Falwell (as asinine as he was) to religious totalitarian maniacs running whole countries, stoning their citizens to death, keeping their women in burlap sacks, killing all the homos and political dissidents, threatening the existence of other countries, and developing nuclear weapons that they can then siphon off to their terrorist buddies. Etc. etc. etc.

Halx

All the same things like ... oh... preaching. Accepting money. Promising miracles. Etc.

I'm of the "belief" that all religion is manufactured and is quite a nice ploy by the more clever of us to get power and money. I also believe that the restrictions it places upon us make us even worse people because of the self-hate we produce when we disobey them.

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FoolThemAll

I didn't actually offer any kind words. But I don't see a point in the ruthlessly unkind words. They reveal just as much about Falwell as more civil appraisals and they betray an undignified hatred on the part of the speaker.

The man's dead. His work - the good and the bad and the bad - is at an end. He can't hear you. Your vitriolic attacks can only be felt by his surviving loved ones. He's irrelevant, as now are the attacks against them. Save them for the living, breathing, actually presently harmful evangelists out there. Otherwise, they just come off as petty graspings for the last word.

Yeah, I know, Falwell did the same thing, yeah, I know, it's only fitting.

Forgive me if I don't look to Falwell for a moral benchmark.

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Charlatan

Killing is just a means to an end.

It is just another form of political influence. If they could get away with it, I don't doubt for a second that Christan fundamentalists would kill for their cause.

From my point of view, all religion is false and negative. People like bin Laden and Falwell well know this and use it to their advantage.

The Fundamentalism they spout is lever of convenience. It is a system to be used to influence others to your way of thinking.

However, whether true to their convictions or a gospel spouting charlatan, a Fundamentalist is an absolutist and as such has taken the position that you are either with me or against me. There is no shade of grey.

Anything that absolutist can only lead to conflict with opposing points of view. How far that conflict can go is only tempered by the political state in which the Fundamentalist plies their trade.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

Intense1

Hal - Never saw JF promising miracles. As a matter of fact, as a Southern Baptist, I'd reckon JF didn't talk about modern day miracles so much, as they tend to stay away from them. Too close to "spiritual gifts" for them.

(Note to Hal - not myself as a SoBap, JF was, although I grew up as one)

As for receiving money for preaching - that is scripturally based, as "the workman is worthy of his hire", said the Apostle Paul. Can't remember the reference, but it was about those who ministered to the early church but didn't ask for support in their work, therefore going hungry. This finds its background in the OT's law of "bringing tithe into the storehouse so that there is enough".

As for religion being "manufactured" - religion has been around as long as man has been here. It's institutional religion that has caused true spirituality to be held in disrepute. The church has been its own worst enemy, as when there are human beings running an organization, there is bound to be crap.

I hate to bring out an old logic debate killer, but when I am so disheartened by the "send money to the Lord" shows on TV, I think of Mother Theresa. Here was a woman who went to India and served dying lepers, and loved them. She started a convent of nuns who still to this day serve the poorest of the poor in Calcutta (as well as all over India). And man, when you think of poor, go one further, and you'll have some idea of what it means to be poor in Calcutta.

She wrote that when she sees their disease ridden bodies, she sees the face of Jesus.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

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powerclown

Yes, but don't you (figuratively) make a distinction between religious fundamentalism within the context of a secular, democratic society, and religious fundamentalism within the context of a religious theocracy? People can think whatever they want, hold any extreme viewpoint they want, but at the end of the day...the political structures of the 2 societies are radically different. In the first, the radical holds relatively little power, in the other it is all-powerful.

Intense1

Charlatan I am amazed, with all you say about religion, about how little you know about Christianity.

Powerclown - yes, when Billy Graham says something like "God will smite the wicked" (not that he would, just an example), folks just listen and either agree or disagree.

When OBL says it, 19 young men highjack planes and kill thousands of infidels.

There is a difference. Indeed.

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powerclown

Bingo.

Superbelt

Then there the Pat Robertsons who pressure the President and congressmen and make public statements about overthrowing a sovereign nation that he doesn't like. That goes for both the current, like Iraq. And the future, like Venezuela. Also there is the Liberian thing where Robertson was running gold and diamond mines out of that country. When things started to go bad, he repeatedly used his influence to get, or at least try to get, the State Department and the President to back off of the Dictator of that nation, Charles Taylor.

People like Bin Laden do not have this kind of power to spread their influence.

Like I said, Robertson and Falwell never needed to command followers to blow themselves up. They were able to directly influence international and domestic policy in this nation. No fundamentalist clerics are in as good a position to spread their agenda than our own radical mullah's.

Halx

Christian fundamentalists do kill for their cause. Just not as announced in the US. This book I'm readying cites a few Christian fundamentalists who partake in realtively modern genocide in other parts of the world.

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Intense1

Presidents throughout our history have received counsel from clergy, Superbelt. It doesn't mean that the clergy are the motivating forces of the policies the Pres pursues. Clinton called upon Billy Graham, Tony Campolo and his own pastor when making decisions.

Do you have evidence that presidents have been catapulted into military action on the word of a minister?

Oh Hal, please oh please give me evidence of how true Christians (not in Ireland, as "Christian/Catholic" is just an excuse) have killed. Also, no using the "Army of God" in Africa, either. I mean true Christians who kill en masse.

What book, Hal?

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Superbelt

Yeah, clergy have given counsel to presidents before. For the fundamentalist, powermad ones like we have right now, that is their power outlet.

Can you argue that under Reagan, Bush and Shrub... That they have not found highly sympathetic ears to push their agenda?
They share similar goals and get to see what they want actually happen.

If they did not have that outlet, if they felt their were persecuted by a superpower and an alien religious culture was impressing itself upon their countrymen... Can you really say they wouldn't have taken a similar tact?

I believe they would have.
Same story, different characters.

Intense1

But Superbelt, you are making a big assumption here. Plus you are showing a political bias in a place where we are talking about a dead minister.

I can also argue how JFK found fans in secular/moral relative folk. And how when Bill Clinton was in office, many people felt that sex in the oval office shouldn't be brought up.

If you have evidence that Jerry Falwell moved the current president to do things, or if you have evidence that he moved any previous presidents to do things. please share. I need enlightening.

Regardless of what the left wants to believe, the right has a powerful voting block in the whole fundamental christian group. It is a valid voting block, and it cannot be denied its power politically.

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Halx

I think some of us are sort of insulted by religion. That is why we don't enjoy someone so radical making a grasp for power. We believe, not only that religious values that we don't sympathize with will be imposed on us, but that a society of people who believe they are destined for better things (and thus look down upon the other-believers) will have power and will corrupt what we have spent over 2 centuries building. And there is no argument against the notion that a country under religious rule will cause misery to those who are not of that religion. There simply cannot be from any sane person an argument.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I'm going to a party tomorrow night.

He was wrong and yet profitted from it.

What does that say about us?

It is only us here, even the idiots who bought his prejudices.

Intense1: think about sex in the oval office...

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Intense1

Yee-hah - I remembered at least how to use the quote button. Maybe next I'll figure out how to cut out various bits I want to quote and be able to do the whole [quote/=] thing.

Hal, I understand how folks can be insulted by religion. I myself hate - absolutely despise - any system that demands absolute religious obedience to a dogma. I cannot for the life of me find that in the New Testament of scripture. As for those who "believe they are destined for better things (and thus look down upon the other-believers)" - I'm sorry that this is your experience with Christians. No Christian believer should ever give the impression that they are "looking down" upon those who do not believe what they believe.

I spent the last 20 or so years of my life amongst Buddhists, and I sure wouldn't have made many friends if I gave the impression that I was better than they were because "I have heaven waiting for me".

The nature of religious belief is that one has found what one's heart is looking for, therefore, one wants to share it with others. I shared my heart with many - some believed, some didn't. It made no difference either way.

And as for what we have spent two centuries building here in the US - yeesh, Hal, check out the founding documents.... there's God all over 'em.

Hee hee, crazymodern, I'd rather not think about sex in the Oval Office, if you don't mind. It was bad enough under Clinton and his lollypop intern, much less now!

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Ourcrazymodern?

I meant historically.

Jerry Falwell was a big, fatty flash-in-the-pan, was he not?

Why have we digressed towards president's sex lives?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Intense1

There was a whole discussion about influence over the pres by ministers, and then it was mentioned that..... and then.... whew. I don't know.

Man, I'm tired.

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Paq

considering he and robertson prayed for another 'opening' in the supreme court so bush could appoint a more conservative judge...yeah, that's just a bit over the line for me. it's even sadder that many agree with him.

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Halx

I tend to rely on the amendments on the constitution. The bill of rights specifically. I also acknowledge that this country was born in the 1700's, whereas atheism only grows as time and knowledge progresses. What I mean to say is... the more secular knowledge we are presented with, the less we need god in the equation to explain things. So it's understandable that the nations of yesteryear, and even those born a couple hundred years ago are so reliant on "god" but the more we learn about the world around us (and this century is filled with these "revelations" of knowledge) the less we depend on the explanation of divinity.

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Intense1

Yes Hal, we don't need to see "God" in our political papers, but the foundation of our country had God in it. Which means our legal system was founded with the 10 commandments in mind. That's why they're in so many court rooms.

As our country moves toward secularism, there are many who are happy, but many who are not. Both sides have their own arguments - it is incumbent upon us as Americans to dive into this debate and suss it out. Or rather, vote it out.

You may believe that religion isn't valid; that's a "valid" position to hold. However, there are many others who believe it is relevant, and their position is also valid. If you want others to respect your position, you must also agree to accept there is an opposite opinion.

For Paq - There is no difference in Falwell and Robertson wanting their "pick" for the supreme court (and therefore praying for it) and the NOW and ACLU wanting their pick for the supreme court (and maybe wishing for it?). Both groups want their pick on the court, and have their right to pray for it/or wish for it.

Oh, BTW - I was totally appalled by Pat Robertson's call for Hugo Chavez to be assassinated! That is something a religious leader should not ever do, call for the death of another world leader, in today's age, or in any other age. Scripture says that this is in the hands of God. For Pat Robertson to call for an assassination is pure crap.

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Charlatan

But this is what fundamentalists do. They espouse one thing and then do another. Say they want peace and then they call for head to roll.

The issue isn't whether or not someone is going to carry out their wishes. The issues is that this sort of hypocrisy is somehow excusable because the person who said is a "man of god".

It's pure bullshit that someone like Robertson still has followers after he says something like that.

Hence, fundamentalists are fundamentalists.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

mixedmedia

Never one to ignore while neglected atrocities slip away under the radar...ever hear of Sabra and Shatila?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2255902.stm

...this goes a little more in depth...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

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tecoyah

And here is the underlying reason people kill each other....

Please tell us all what constitutes a "True Christian", so we can decide who is not, and hate them.

Falwell had a criteria for Christianity, likely quite different from your own, and it wasnt pretty. Why was his wrong.....and yours right?

hunnychile

The Sad, Quotable Jerry Falwell
It's bad form to speak ill of the dead. Good thing this man's own vile words speak for themselves

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist

Friday, May 18, 2007



You can eulogize. You can mourn and ponder and do a lengthy retrospective, a political analysis, a sociocultural examination of a career and a legacy and a rather remarkable life. When remembering the dead, the journalistic options are legion.

But in the case of the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, the grandfather of the fundamentalist religious right and the foremost champion of the creation of a brutally homophobic, mysogynistic Christian theocracy in America, perhaps it's better to let the man's most insidiously famous quotes speak for themselves, and let time and karma be the judge of whether Falwell left the world a better place than when he found it. (All citations are available at wikiquote.org and elsewhere.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for [the attacks of Sept. 11] because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."

"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals -- most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men -- that's their problem."

"When you have a godly husband, a godly wife, children who respect their parents and who are loved by their parents, who provide for those children their physical and spiritual and material needs, lovingly, you have the ideal unit."

"The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews."

"I am saying pornography hurts anyone who reads it -- garbage in, garbage out."

"I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush."

"I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time."

"It is God's planet -- and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point."

"I truly cannot imagine men with men, women with women, doing what they were not physically created to do, without abnormal stress and misbehavior."

"It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening."

"There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas."

"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!"

"The First Amendment is not without limits."

"Someone must not be afraid to say, 'moral perversion is wrong.' If we do not act now, homosexuals will 'own' America! If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way ... and our nation will pay a terrible price!"

"If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, [the Antichrist] has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish."

"The argument that making contraceptives available to young people would prevent teen pregnancies is ridiculous. That's like offering a cookbook as a cure to people who are trying to lose weight."

"The whole global warming thing is created to destroy America's free enterprise system and our economic stability."

"You'll be riding along in an automobile. You'll be the driver perhaps. You're a Christian. There'll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds you and the other born-again believers in that automobile will be instantly caught away -- you will disappear, leaving behind only your clothes and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find the car suddenly somewhere crashes. ... Other cars on the highway driven by believers will suddenly be out of control and stark pandemonium will occur on ... every highway in the world where Christians are caught away from the drivers wheel." (from Falwell's pamphlet "Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Christ")

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

"You know when I see somebody burning the flag, I'm a Baptist preacher I'm not a Mennonite, I feel it's my obligation to whip him. In the name of the Lord, of course. I feel it's my obligation to whip him, and if I can't do it then I look up some of my athletes to help me. But, as long as at 72 I can handle most of the jobs I do it myself, and I don't think it's un-spiritual. When I, when I, when I hear somebody talking about our military and ridiculing and saying terrible things about our President, I'm thinking you know just a little bit of that and I believe the Lord would forgive me if I popped him."

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etcetera."

"The National Organization for Women (NOW) is the National Order of Witches."

"God doesn't listen to Jews."

"Tinky Winky is gay."

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Halx

Let's not nitpick about "true" christians. That would be opening the doorway to an endless argument about the very reason why people kill eachother in the first place; people denying eachother the title of a true believer. If you don't think those killers in africa are true christians, they don't think you are one either - and they'll kill you because of it. Now who is more devout? It can even be argued that jesus himself was not a true christian. The root of the problem is that there are a billion interpretations for the same damn words (that which were constructed hundreds of years AFTER the events they claim to be a first hand account of) and every interpretation claims it is the right one. What a mess for something you don't even need to live a happy life in the first place.

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Charlatan

Have you forgotten that only a few centuries ago we struggled to put down a theocracy so we could replace it with our current system. We have a secular, democratic society because those who came before us struggled to bring it about. I don't think for a second that Fundamentalist Christians wouldn't jump at the chance to have a theocracy once more.

In fact, there are members here who seem to suggest that secularism isn't a done deal that we should perhaps rethink it. Personally, that sort of suggestion doesn't sit well with me, nor should it with you I should think.

I am fine if a religious person wants to practice their religion, so long as it doesn't interfere with me. I am not so sure that all religious people can say the same. People such as Falwell show is this sort of thing in action.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ARTelevision

If you'll bear with me, I would like to jump back into this thread.

I did want to bring up the comparison between the small amount of damage done by a guy such as Falwell in comparison to the massive damage done by fundamentalists of other faiths. - speaking contemporaneously.

And I do see many responses to his death as largely emotional.

I know the anti-American issue is contentious. I don't want to be contentious.

In any event, as stated, I do not see a reason for argument or debate - ever. I see discussion as simply a stating of viewpoints and some subsequent response. These forums appeal to me as a place where I can encounter the views of others - and occasionally, as a place to state some of my own.

I do not find such things as "facts" in the world.

All I see is viewpoints.

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Judy Taber

"All I see are viewpoints."

You must have a very rich and fullfilling social life.
Do you prefer the rich tapestry of conversation to be found in talking to a block of wood, for example?