abaya

I know you said you aren't singling me out, but you are quoting me, so I am responding.

I never said that people choose to be homeless. I am well aware of the circumstances by which many people become homeless. My whole point was that I don't give money to street people in Western countries, because I don't think giving out random change will change a thing, especially when there are services and an infrastructure for helping those people (and especially when they are bodily able to work, unlike people lacking limbs in 3rd world countries). I would much rather contribute to those services, whether by my own time or giving money if I don't have time, than give handouts on the street.

Did you read the part in my post about compassion being more than flipping a coin, and that volunteering some hours of one's week seems a lot more compassionate to me? There was no response to that section of my post.

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Carno

Uh, apparently not plainly enough. I was simply wondering if your opinion would change if you lived near more bums, and then you replied that since we are different, your opinion would not change.

I was not inferring anything, you are making shit up in your mind.

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mixedmedia

Dude, did it ever occur to you that your initial question was simply you "making shit up in your mind"? No? Hmm.

I answered it plainly. NO, I do not think my opinion would change because I've lived with myself thinking largely the same way on this issue (regardless of my proximity to bums) for 41 freakin' years and I think I've got a grip on how I think and react in most situations. Capice?

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sapiens

I donate to a number of charities to that cater to the homeless, but I never give money to panhandlers. I always say, "Sorry, nothing for you" when asked. It's relatively honest. I have money, but none for them. I don't feel obligated by the asking. I generally find panhandling to be rude, but I understand that they have a right to ask me for money and I have a right to say no.

I've often heard that people "don't see" the panhandlers. I see the people standing on the side of the road with signs, but I feel no obligation to look at them any more than I would feel an obligation to look at anyone else.

On a separate issue, people often use "the homeless" and "panhandlers" interchangeably. Of course, they're not. Panhandlers likely represent a small fraction of the homeless. We don't see many of the homeless simply because they're not the ones asking us for change. Somewhere I've seen stats...

Ourcrazymodern?

I once saw some bums drinking isopropyl openly on the walk leading to the capitol in Madison, WI. I almost threw up. We make our own paths.

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shesus

There seems to be a lot of talk about comparing countries. Is that a fair comparison? Poor is poor is poor. If you can't afford food, you don't have appropriate clothes, and you rarely have a roof over your head...you're poor no matter where you live. I'm sure that a person sleeping in a doorway in Chicago isn't thinking, "Wow, I'm so lucky to be homeless here because people in *insert 3rd world country here* have it much worse." They're probably thinking, "My life sucks ass and I wish the concrete wasn't so hard."

Also, I'm sure that there are people in 3rd world countries who are homeless because they have fucked up just like there are people in the states who are homeless because of something out of their control. There are disabled panhandlers everywhere missing limbs or wheelchair bound.

I guess I just don't understand the discussion. Unless it's just a way to list all the things one has done and places one has visited to become worldly and compassionate. It would make much more sense to discuss how some countries have virtually no homelessness because the governement helps the citizens out instead of leaving them to fend for themselves during a bump in life. I mean the American dream is great for some, but a nightmare for others.

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roachboy

to answer the op question: sometimes i give folk money, sometimes i dont--sometimes i cant, usually for stupid reasons. the reasons are always situational.

but that seems like it's problematic as an explanation through much of the thread, and once "bigger" explanations started to float about here, the thread became quite problematic in my view. most if not all of the more sanctimonious posts seemed to rely entirely on petit bourgeois "common sense" with the effect of showing once again why petit bourgeois "common sense" aint worth shit.

people like to pretend that what they see is self-contained, that what is means is somehow within what they see and so requires no effort to understand. this is never the case--but it is most obviously not the case when you are dealing with a social phenomenon or problem--panhandling--which may or may not have anything to do with homelessness--is an aspect of a very considerable social problem in the states. anyone who is awake knows this: but rather than think about it, many folk above seem to have taken the lazy way out and decided to simply blame these folk for the situation they are in. had the op sollicited nasty and repellent class prejudices, then most of the responses above that follow the "its their own fault" argument would have been germaine--but as characterizations of anything beyond that, they, like the petit bourgeois "common sense" they lean on, aint worth shit.

so let's say that there is some cross-cover between the categories homelessness and panhandling.

so some numbers on homelessness in the states:



source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeles..._United_States

the footnote links are live in the original, so the data can be chased, and there is an extensive bibliography.

poverty understood in absolute terms is poverty not understood at all. you might read this piece by amartya sen for a very compelling argument as to why this is the case:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=001...3E2.0.CO%3B2-7

jstor is an academic database: if you have access to it via a university library, the download is free...the paper version is pretty iwdely available in most bigger libraries. i put up the link for the bibliographic information.

one of the things he argues in this paper is that poverty in the united states is considerably worse than poverty in many "third world" countries not because of the material situations in each--whcih you cannot take in isolation (sorry)--but rather because of the socio-cultural position created around poverty in the states--the claim becomes really clear if you read the piece.

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MexicanOnABike

has anyone seen the last southpark episode? season11-episode07. it's a great one about homeless and how they're always asking for change...

and to everyone who commented on my post: that is a quote from the movie Suicide Kings. the dude saying that is a mob boss so he's super wealthy. I thought it was funny and to someone educated enough to do a job, it could be the help they need. eitherway, I don't give my money because i'm never sure of what they'll do with it. Id rather buy them food directly.

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Sue

Nope, sure don't. Never have, never will.

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Seaver

Roach, yes my statements might have been inflammatory, and may have been taken not as intended.

My argument is we have plenty of social programs for the poor. Those classified as poor already pay almost nothing (or nothing at all) in taxes. They have free, or almost free healthcare. There are government, and civilian job placement programs. There are free, or almost free, housing available for anyone who can find a job within 6 months.

Every one of us can think of at minimum ONE friend or family member who would be more than willing to take us in and help us in a time of need. As one member pointed out here he was in an abusive situation with his father and ran away (fully justifyable). However I'm sure he could have, at any time, found a cousin/aunt/uncle/grandma/etc who would have been more than willing to take them in and protect them. We have social services to ensure that he could have legal protection from his father.

With this huge safety net (which I fully support), there should be very very few people out there who fall through the cracks. As I said, here in Austin we've shut down a bunch of low-to-no income housing projects because they were left vacant, yet on every corner you see a bum begging for money.

One can say that homeless won't get hired, but I don't believe it. They have free housing for 6months by simply showing a work slip, this includes utilities. 6months is plenty of time to get a shave/haircut/shower and finally a job.

The mentally ill is a problem and will always be one, but how many are there simply because they were addicted to drugs and/or alcohol? How many are there because they are too stubborn to allow a boss to tell them what to do?

Basically I see it as we all give plenty in social programs which ensure the money goes to those who need, and work for, it. I don't give to them because I don't know which are truely vets, or which are simply lazy. I don't have the time to figure it out, so I'll let the social programs do it if these people apply.

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eileenbunny

One time I gave money to a bum because he helped me find a parking space in DC. I used to go to Baltimore and have "take a bum to dinner" night where I'd take the first person that asked me for money to a restaurant in the local club district and feed them whatever they wanted on the menu. That way I knew my money was going for the good of the person. Sometimes the bums would refuse and be pissed that I wouldn't just give them the money, but most of them were appreciative. I had some really interesting conversations during those dinners too.

JStrider

I dont usually give them money.
I'll usually offer to buy them some of whatever they are asking for. More often then not they turn me down.

bought a guy a subway sandwich once.

another time some guys at the walmart parking lot asked for money for gas, I told them they could follow me to the gas station down the road and I'd buy em enough gas to get to the town they said they were going to. they declined the offer and were gone when I got out of walmart...

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1010011010

If they've got a specific pitch and I happen to have an object meeting the goal of their quest, I'll usually offer it to them. I've given away a fair bit of food, a pair of shoes, a jacket, and a ride to a gas station.

I have given money, but not for several years.

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jewels

I'm with you, abaya.

Never. I used to always give to panhandlers until I was exposed to the "other side". The fact is that most homeless that truly care are taking advantage of the many programs and forms of assistance out there for them. The panhandlers choose to live in the street because they don't like following the rules and curfews, which -- much as I hate to say -- means they'd rather take their chances if they can buy themselves a bottle of booze.

I'm not totally cruel, though. If there's fast food around, I will offer to buy them a burger. Nine times out of ten, they turn it down. They're saving up for the next bottle.

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Shauk

I, unlike a lot of people, actually pay artist/musicians for the music I download, so I don't have money for panhandlers anyway. However, if you're a music pirate, if you're going to avoid giving money to the artist, give money to a bum. Then argue with your morals about who really deserved that money

Sion

In the grand old US of A, nothing is denied you if you have the will, the determination and the persistance to go get it:





Very, very, very few people are incapable of contributing to society in some way or another.

Knowing that people like in the above links exist makes me VERY reluctant to give money those who are unwilling to work.

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Martian

Full disclosure: I have not read this thread in it's entirety. This is my failing I'll admit, but as my thought is largely tangential to what's been said already I think I can get away with it, and I just don't have the will right now to read a lot of drawn-out statement and in-depth articles.

My problem with giving money to homeless people stems from an internal conflict. I have a charitable nature, but I also have a drive to seek efficiency. Simply handing out change to panhandlers on the street is inefficient; for one, I simply don't have enough change, nor can I do this on a regular basis (as my little town doesn't have any panhandlers). Further to that, it doesn't really solve the problem. The homeless person who receives my change (or my sandwich, for that matter), is still homeless.

I don't pretend to know how to address this. I sorely wish I did. When I was younger and more idealistic I tried to formulate plans to help homeless people get out of their dire circumstances. I have thus far been unable to come up with anything workable. Therefore, like Manic_Skafe, given my limited funds, I employ a selection process based on the perceived merits of the individual. I would argue that people who sing or play a guitar or perform magic tricks or do the human statue routine have elevated themselves from the status of panhandler to that of street performer, and are deserving of pay given that they provide a service. Therefore I'll more readily throw a dollar to someone who does something like this than someone who complacently sits next to a sign. I am charitable by nature, but only to a point; nobody is entitled to my money but me, and people who think they're entitled to my handout will get a rude awakening.

I've also asked homeless people for directions in exchange for a dollar on occasion. I would argue that this is more meritorious. It's easier to feel like a person when you provide a service for the money received.

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yournamehere

One year around Christmas, I gave a panhandler $20. A day later, I saw him in a bar, drunk as a skunk . A few weeks later, I needed some help putting in a lot of gravel at my house (10,000 sf yard - 25 tons of decomposed granite) I offered half a dozen 'homeless' guys begging on the street medians $10/hr to come help me carry and rake it. They all laughed at me - told me they could make twice that by staying where they were and not breaking a sweat.

That was 10 years ago, and ever since then, I haven't given a cent to anyone with a cardboard sign - regardless of what's written on it.

The only exception - I did go back to drop off 20 cans of dog food once to a guy who had a puppy tied up next to him. I offered to take the puppy off his hands, but he said it was a "good prop."

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LoganSnake

I think I've given it once or twice. There are too many people in Chicago who ask for it. It's weird, because I always feel guilty when I walk past...

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Xerxys

There have been four threads so far on this very topic. This is the best so I'm bumping it. I have started seeing more and more panhandlers with signs saying "homeless vet, HELP!" and such around here. Maybe it's because I work in the big city now, (If you consider Raleigh a big city) but then I still don't give them any money. I eat a lot of fast food and the joints I get my fast food from knows me as a religious member and they give me coupons. I also collect a lot of coupons during fast food promotions and such. To ease my fat ass conscience, I give them the coupons. They usually require no purchase. Then there's this technique ...

>>LINK<<

ring

Roach's above post is deeply thought provoking.

What strikes me hard across my sensibilities, is how the internal dialogue
of the giver of change plays out.

I'm concerned that far too often, some folk simply find it easier
to adopt a blanket condemnation & scorn of all panhandlers.

I wonder how many people unwittingly use this shunning tactic
out of a sense of fear. Fear of the idea that one slip of fortune,
and I may end up like, 'that.'

or it could be also be a: "yeah, let them starve, and decrease the surplus population," meme.

Willful ignorance is a chosen form of poverty.
I can muster sympathy for this affliction, as well;
but I will admit it takes more effort.

uncle phil

back a long time ago, when i was on christmas leave in dallas, my great-aunt and i were wandering around downtown and a panhandler came up to us and asked us for a hand-out. aunt edna said, "come with us and i'll buy you breakfast."

son of a gun, the dude said yes...

aunt edna said that was the best way to diffuse panhandlers - either they were hungry or they weren't...

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FelixP

I always give money when I have it. I'm not sure why: I hate homeless people, I love my money, and I'm a firm believer in fair pay for hard work and no pay for no work. I guess it all comes down to karma.

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Wes Mantooth

Sometimes...but I usually ask them do a soft-shoe or sing a song or something first. Hey if I had to muck through "Tight Fittin' Jeans" last night to pay the bills the very least they can do is climb out of the refrigerator box and do give me a few bars of Moonlight in Vermont.

Seriously I don't really mind if I have the spare change on hand but for god sakes when I hand them the last 2 dollars I have can they maybe not make me instantly regret it by hitting me up for "a few" cigarettes too?

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biznatch

Sometimes I give money, but it does annoy me to no end when I see someone who's completely able to work spend their day asking people for change when they could be looking for a job.

Also, they keep sitting next to ATMs here in France, and actually ask for 10 or 20 euro bills. Are you fucking insane? That money is payment for me working my ass for a few hours, not for you to cock your head, put on a sad look that you give to everyone else, and try to make me feel pity for you. It just feels so hypocritical and messed up.

Plan9

You're a friggin' hoot.

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chriswin8

Yes i have helped them in the past and will in the future. I try to treat everyone with the respect that i would want to be shown if i was in there shoes.

If that was me would i want that person to give me his pocket change if i needed it.

I mean what am i missing out on a soda at the most.

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ObieX

These people make more per day than i make in an entire week with my actual job. So.. no... no i don't. They should be giving me money.

Many panhandlers are professional panhandlers. Its all they do and they do it because they make a lot of money.

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Walt

It's disgusting. While would like to believe that the vast majority of "career" bums are suffering from some sort of mental illness, the sad fact remains that many folks just embrace the lifestyle because it really doesnt require them to do shit. I always wonder if they are former Art History or Women's Studies majors.

Police: Oregon panhandlers raking in the green | KOMO News | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional
CBC News - Edmonton - Some panhandlers making $400 a day: police

My attitude? Fuck'em.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I spent the latter part of my youth in the DC area where bums are more or less part of the landscape. The whole "homeless vet" thing used to get to me and so I would hand out a few bucks here and there. My attitude changed when I ran in to some bum in front of a 7-11. He told me that he hadn't eaten in a few days and was wondering if I could spare a few dollars. At the time I had no cash on me, just my debit card and told him as much. I went inside and bought a sandwich, bag of chips and a bottle of Gatorade to give to the guy on my way out. Long story, short; the guy flipped out when presented with the food. "What the fuck? You gonna buy shit but you cant gimme no money?!" Guess he wasn't that hungry after all.

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chriswin8

Ok so let me say this i think i now understand this post. You are talking panhandlers I was meaning homeless.

I help the homeless people. Normal you can tell by the way they dress if they are truly homeless or not. They dress for warmth one way or another. Panhandlers most offend don't think of this.

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SSJTWIZTA

ehh, if the pan-handler is giving me a bullshit lie, no dough for them. any other time and i'll spare some change.

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Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
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MeltedMetalGlob

I used to pass along any change to the less-aggressive ones in the city, but that was back when I had disposable income and high ideals.

Nowadays I have less to give, although I went to NYC this past winter and found myself giving dollars to the guys who were singing or playing homemade instruments in Times Square- I could do no less.

On a related note, for those interested in "teaching them to fish" there's an organization called the Cara Program that tries to educate the homeless.

(I'd provide a link, but I don't want to come off as spamming- you can just use a search engine anyway.)

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citadel

If they seem like a decent person down on their luck, yes, if they seem like a drug addict or dirtbag, no. All of this is assuming I have any spare money to give in the first place though.

Almirschuch

I went to McDonalds and got a meal for one instead and he threw it back at me and said "i dont want this shit, give me some money!" >

chinese crested

If they have a dog with them, I sometimes go buy them a hot pasty or sausage roll to share. I did make the mistake of giving a woman with her head covered and standing in the snow selling The Big Issue the price of a coffee in the cafe opposite, so that she could warm herself. Then she started persuing me for money for milk for her starving baby. Son sitting in the car said I wasnt the only one, so I wont give cash any more. On the other side of it, the dogs and I street collect for animal charity - that doesnt make us as bad, does it? We dont get paid.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

The 'Lucky Heather' ladies (in the loosest sense of the word) are the ones who annoy me. Beware the Pikey curse if you dont buy it.