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Old 04-14-2007, 03:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Who runs the race?

I spend the majority of my days teaching in the ‘ghetto’, i.e. a low-income and black neighborhood. Everyday when I go to the school, I pass by trash, homeless people, drug dealers, empty beer cans and liquor bottles littering the ground in front of the school. The majority of buildings in this neighborhood are pawnshops, liquor stores, bars, or vacant. There were riots in this neighborhood after Martin Luther King, Jr.’s assassination destroying 75% of the businesses. After all these years, many lots are still empty. Some mornings, the door closest to my car is locked and I have to walk around to the front of the school never knowing what comments or actions the gangs on the corners might make. Once inside the school, the majority of my time is spent doing crowd control, listening to arguments and trying to intervene before they become physical which involves not only fists, but pencils, scissors, and/or chairs. I hear things from the elementary students daily like: “Shut up, nigga”, “Move your black ass, you goin’ too slow”, “Pfft, I don’t care”, “You can’t make me do nothin’”, “Bitch, I don’t know why he’d want to fuck you”, and “You make my testicles hurt”. These aren’t viewed as problems because “these children are victims of their ‘ghetto’ culture.” In other words, we are told by parents and administrators that “that’s just the way they are” as in “boys will be boys”. Yet, one man says ‘nappy headed hoes’ on the radio and the same people who excuse the students’ behavior demand that this man be fired. We have been told that as white people, we can’t relate to or understand the challenges of the students we teach. With these attitudes, people in this area will never succeed in breaking the stereotypes because they justify these behaviors as part of their culture. Yet, when someone outside makes the same observation, they are called racist and are ostracized for their comments.

I watched Jesse Jackson on the news Monday marching in front of the NBC building here in Chicago demanding Imus get fired. He vowed to march everyday until his demand was met. Yet, Tuesday, Imus still had a job and Jesse Jackson was nowhere to be found. Jackson claims to care about racial equality, yet apparently he does not follow through on promises. In my 3 years teaching in the ghetto, I have never seen nor heard Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or any other racial ambulance-chasers in any of the schools here doing their best to improve the lives of these people. Instead, I see them on television talking about “hymies” and “diamond merchants”. In fact, when Bill Cosby stood up and spelled out the problems he sees in these types of areas, he was called a traitor to his race by these same people.

But Jackson and Sharpton succeeded; we won't have that racist talk on television or radio anymore. Wait, what's that? Oh, you mean the incessant use of “bitch”, “hoe”, and “nigger” and the glamorization of the ghetto fabulous living one can hear glamorized on television and radio? You mean Sharpton and Jackson aren’t marching to stop that? I suppose that’s not racist or sexist. In fact, on the Today show Friday morning, Jason Whitlock, a columnist for the Kansas City Star, brought up this same point. His comment was not discussed because the real problem is Imus.

There is a problem and it’s not Imus or any of the other people who have spouted out racist comments in the past few months. The problem is that fact that the cycle of being a victim not only continues, but also is excused because ‘that’s their culture’. My students are living it and I’m attempting to do my little part to fix it. If I state what the problem is, I stand the chance of being called a racist. If a black person states the problem, they stand the chance of being called a traitor. The problem is larger than any of us and is going to take a lot of work to fix. The problem was best said in Jason Whitlock’s column this past week:

“It is us. At this time, we are our own worst enemies. We have allowed our youths to buy into a culture (hip hop) that has been perverted, corrupted and overtaken by prison culture. The music, attitude and behavior expressed in this culture is anti-black, anti-education, demeaning, self-destructive, pro-drug dealing and violent.

Rather than confront this heinous enemy from within, we sit back and wait for someone like Imus to have a slip of the tongue and make the mistake of repeating the things we say about ourselves.”

The culture of the ghetto is that learning is not cool. If you succeed in school, you have turned against your race. It's depressing to stand in front of 60 kids a day and know that the majority of them will drop out, get pregnant before the age of 18, join a gang, become a drug-dealer, end up in prison, and/or get shot. Some of them may actually graduate and attend college, maybe 10 out of the 60. I plan lessons and attempt to teach my students to think, problem solve, and find a purpose for getting their education. What I've found is that you can't teach people anything if they don't want to learn. I can present the information, but what they do with it (if they even hear it) is beyond my control. As long as their role models rap and talk about anti-education and ghetto fabulous living, my teaching is in vain.

Hopefully, the people that see the problem and want to fix the problem will yell louder than those who choose to victimize or be victims. However, people will continue to carry torches to burn those that say racial slurs instead of tackling the underbelly of the problem, which is the value system of the culture. Dealing with the real problem is more involved than making posters and marching. To begin solving the problem people need to look at: Who is leading the black race? Who is setting the examples? Where are positive role models for these children? As long as the role models slam education and promote gangster living, the problems will continue and the victim cycle will go for generations to come.
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Old 04-14-2007, 06:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I dont have a lot to add in this , for I am the stereo-typical mid twenty year old White person. I've lived in an area all my life that has less than a 2% NON-White ratio.

I have little exposure to the cultures other than what I viewed in college, and honestly we were all the same. (In the way I didn't hang out with anyone other than what seemed to be normal people, no matter their skin. There was no ghetto, gangs, etc...) Now that I'm back in where I grew up its all the same.

No one here is racist, there really isnt the opportunity for one to be or not to be racist.

So on that end of the spectrum, I'm pretty useless.

BUT

I congratulate you for doing what you do, and honestly caring as much as you do.

That was one of the better reads I've had on this forum in a while.
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Old 04-14-2007, 06:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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That was a very well written post shesus.

I think a lot of the problem has to do with people's feelings of powerlessness and a seeming inability to actually effect change. Jumping up and down and screaming bloody murder every time some idiot lets out a racist comment is easy. Doing something productive that actually might make a change for the better is a hell of a lot harder.
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Old 04-14-2007, 07:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You'd enjoy the Boondocks episode "Return of the King" about the reintroduction of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. into modern society. It's one of the best critiques on what you're talking about I've seen in mainstream media.

I totally agree with you, and I think that's one of the better posts I've seen in the several years I've been on TFP.
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Old 04-14-2007, 08:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for posting this, shesus.

I have a lot of things to address...just too tired tonight.

But to start out I'd just like to point out, for the time being, that there are a lot of decent, hardworking people who both:

1. live in the ghettos
and
2. listen to rap music

1. I don't live in the ghetto and I find it very difficult to upwardly mobilize myself. But I am white and my address is not in a ghetto, therefore I have two advantages that most black women don't. I think it's important for people to keep an open mind on this issue, because it is very easy to pigeonhole people based simply on the environment they live in. Do you suppose everyone in the ghetto wants to live in the way shesus described it (which I totally believe)? Do you suppose most people in the ghetto want to live that way?
Let's take the apartment complex where I live, for example. Most people here don't have dogs. But a certain percentage of them do and many of those dog owners walk their dogs in our grassy areas and they shit everywhere making traversing these areas like a fecal minefield - basically unusable for the majority of tenants who live here. Now I and others have complained repeatedly about this to the apartment management. But the management is overworked and poorly staffed, the complex is overcrowded and hard to manage so little gets done other than an occasional flyer distribution which has little to no temporary effect. Now most of us living here don't want to live this way. We would like to let our kids run out in the grass or even take the shortcut through the grass when carrying our groceries in, but we cannot. The best we could do to improve our living conditions it seems is to move somewhere else, but since this is the most affordable complex in the area that is still a halfway decent place to live we stay and live with the shit. Now imagine if this apartment complex were the ghetto and the dog owners and their dog shit were drug dealers (that you feared) and liquor bottles and crack pipes and used condoms and the apartment management were an overworked, poorly staffed and funded municipal government. And imagine if you were living in these conditions and working two jobs just to get by and trying to keep your kids out of trouble. You might feel helpless and powerless to effect change in your community and unable to move somewhere else because you can barely afford the rent or the house payment in your ghetto home. I think we misplace a lot of frustration we feel over the situation in our ghettos and inner cities. We put the burden for solving it onto the shoulders of those who are the most powerless to do anything about it.

And one more thing, if our goal is to have more racial harmony, a color-blind society, then why is this only a black problem? We want racial harmony and a color-blind society only when they've reached the level of socio-economic mobility that white people are able to achieve - that which was handed to us with no struggle for it whatsoever?

2. I've known lots of young black men, and lots of young white men for that matter, who listen to rap music that glorifies "ghetto culture" who DO NOT emulate that lifestyle. To say that the music in and of itself is causing people to live in a certain way is a little disingenuous coming from a set, that I would imagine, was in steadfast defiance of the PMRC when it was attacking the lyrics and lifestyle depicted in much rock music (aka, white music). Are we to assume that white kids are more resistant to being influenced by the form of music they listen to? Could we (again) be misplacing some of our frustration with the socio-economic imbalance in America and its effect on black inner city neighborhoods? And can we agree that that very lifestyle glorified in rap music is also a direct result of that socio-economic imbalance?

In other words, isn't the socio-economic imbalance between blacks and whites in America (Americans) the responsibility of us all to overcome?

Just some concepts to mull over. Guess I got a second wind, lol.
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Old 04-14-2007, 08:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Very well said. Thank you for sharing it.
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Old 04-14-2007, 08:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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I dont believe the problem is as simple as blaming it all on self-victimization, which, as I read it, is the thrust of the OP.

Absoutely, personal responsibility and a value system that honors education and hard work is central to a postive change for one's family and close community. But there are larger societal issues as well that contribute to the ongoing cycle of poverty.

Two quick examples:
The disparities in education funding (shesus - compare your school to a school in a wealthy or middle class suburb - the basic infrastruture, the teaching tools, etc. that make for a far less inviting learning environment).

The disparities in lending (a hard-working person in the community putting his/her savings in a neighborhood branch of a national bank, hoping to buy that vacant lot in the OP and start a small business, but faces redlining from that same bank which wont lend that hard-working depositor money to start that business).

And as to rap, doesnt some country music (at least before it became more mainstream) promote alcholism, adultery, "taking that job and shoving it" ?

I may have a second wind tommorrow.

Oh..and Shesus...I do applaud you for your personal commitment! Teachers are the most undervalued profession in the country, particular those who are willing to take on the added challenge of an inner-city school.
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Old 04-14-2007, 09:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree with everything that you have to say shesus. I'm not going to say that they're justified but those people who say 'thats their culture' have a point. If a person wants their life to become one of prison, being shot at, etc it's a value judgment just as right as anyone you could make. Now, I personally fail to see how anyone in their right mind could ever choose that life over education and fighting to escape the culture or make it better, but that is easy for me to say here in my comfy dorm room on my predominately white, middle/upper class campus. The few people who I can talk to about this and have real experience from these kinds of neighborhoods (mostly from NYC) paint a very bleak picture.

I could go to college because I had a huge network of support not only in coming to college but in becoming prepared to come to college. I have been told, and find it perfectly believable that the same network doesn't exist for most of these youth. The truth is, even if every single one of those students worked their ass of as hard as they could to do as well in school as they were capable of and every single one of them got into college most of them do not have the resources to actually go and finish. Many of these students would require aid and scholarships to pay their entire way through four years, and that is only available for perhaps the top 5-10% of those students. The rest will mostly be stuck in a place/jobs that ultimately won't amount to much of anything, because they didn't get the college education to allow them to do better. I don't see a problem with being a part of the working class, it's how I grew up. I also understand why most people would never want to settle for that. Unfortunately, there aren't any working class role models out there making millions of dollars and living extravagant lifestyles. There are ex drug dealers and prison birds making millions, so those are the role models that exist for the culture. If I were in the same situation, and I didn't excel in school as easily as I do, I would believe that the best I could hope for was the 'rapper' lifestyle.

You can't reach adolescents on a group level, it must be individually. Most people get the individual support required to make them strive to do something better with their lives at home. If you can't get it there it has to come from somewhere else, in the absence of good support they will turn to their friends or the people in their life they see living better than they are, which seems to be the drug dealers more often than not. Not to people who want to help them, and steer them in a better direction. It takes teachers who care and want better for their students, and the few in the community who are willing to work for change. It takes you people like you shesus, who really care. People who are better than I, who aren't so intimidated by the problem they couldn't deal with it. I wish you the best of luck.
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Old 04-15-2007, 12:19 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Thanks for posting this, shesus.

I have a lot of things to address...just too tired tonight.

But to start out I'd just like to point out, for the time being, that there are a lot of decent, hardworking people who both:

1. live in the ghettos
and
2. listen to rap music

1. I don't live in the ghetto and I find it very difficult to upwardly mobilize myself. But I am white and my address is not in a ghetto, therefore I have two advantages that most black women don't. I think it's important for people to keep an open mind on this issue, because it is very easy to pigeonhole people based simply on the environment they live in. Do you suppose everyone in the ghetto wants to live in the way shesus described it (which I totally believe)? Do you suppose most people in the ghetto want to live that way?
Let's take the apartment complex where I live, for example. Most people here don't have dogs. But a certain percentage of them do and many of those dog owners walk their dogs in our grassy areas and they shit everywhere making traversing these areas like a fecal minefield - basically unusable for the majority of tenants who live here. Now I and others have complained repeatedly about this to the apartment management. But the management is overworked and poorly staffed, the complex is overcrowded and hard to manage so little gets done other than an occasional flyer distribution which has little to no temporary effect. Now most of us living here don't want to live this way. We would like to let our kids run out in the grass or even take the shortcut through the grass when carrying our groceries in, but we cannot. The best we could do to improve our living conditions it seems is to move somewhere else, but since this is the most affordable complex in the area that is still a halfway decent place to live we stay and live with the shit. Now imagine if this apartment complex were the ghetto and the dog owners and their dog shit were drug dealers (that you feared) and liquor bottles and crack pipes and used condoms and the apartment management were an overworked, poorly staffed and funded municipal government. And imagine if you were living in these conditions and working two jobs just to get by and trying to keep your kids out of trouble. You might feel helpless and powerless to effect change in your community and unable to move somewhere else because you can barely afford the rent or the house payment in your ghetto home. I think we misplace a lot of frustration we feel over the situation in our ghettos and inner cities. We put the burden for solving it onto the shoulders of those who are the most powerless to do anything about it.

And one more thing, if our goal is to have more racial harmony, a color-blind society, then why is this only a black problem? We want racial harmony and a color-blind society only when they've reached the level of socio-economic mobility that white people are able to achieve - that which was handed to us with no struggle for it whatsoever?

2. I've known lots of young black men, and lots of young white men for that matter, who listen to rap music that glorifies "ghetto culture" who DO NOT emulate that lifestyle. To say that the music in and of itself is causing people to live in a certain way is a little disingenuous coming from a set, that I would imagine, was in steadfast defiance of the PMRC when it was attacking the lyrics and lifestyle depicted in much rock music (aka, white music). Are we to assume that white kids are more resistant to being influenced by the form of music they listen to? Could we (again) be misplacing some of our frustration with the socio-economic imbalance in America and its effect on black inner city neighborhoods? And can we agree that that very lifestyle glorified in rap music is also a direct result of that socio-economic imbalance?

In other words, isn't the socio-economic imbalance between blacks and whites in America (Americans) the responsibility of us all to overcome?

Just some concepts to mull over. Guess I got a second wind, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
I dont believe the problem is as simple as blaming it all on self-victimization, which, as I read it, is the thrust of the OP.

Absoutely, personal responsibility and a value system that honors education and hard work is central to a postive change for one's family and close community. But there are larger societal issues as well that contribute to the ongoing cycle of poverty.

Two quick examples:
The disparities in education funding (shesus - compare your school to a school in a wealthy or middle class suburb - the basic infrastruture, the teaching tools, etc. that make for a far less inviting learning environment).

The disparities in lending (a hard-working person in the community putting his/her savings in a neighborhood branch of a national bank, hoping to buy that vacant lot in the OP and start a small business, but faces redlining from that same bank which wont lend that hard-working depositor money to start that business).

And as to rap, doesnt some country music (at least before it became more mainstream) promote alcholism, adultery, "taking that job and shoving it" ?

I may have a second wind tommorrow.

Oh..and Shesus...I do applaud you for your personal commitment! Teachers are the most undervalued profession in the country, particular those who are willing to take on the added challenge of an inner-city school.
Quoted for truth. I could dig up the various reports and statistics I accumulated related to this issue, or maybe make a few book recommendations that illustrate just how difficult it is to "take responsibility" (not that responsibility doesn't need to be taken, but the situation is FAR more complex than that). But, frankly, the posts by mixedmedia and dc_dux illustrate most of the points quite well, and I'd rather not waste my time or anyone else's when there are already excellent posts in this thread. So, we should all read them again, and let them sink in just a little deeper.

EDIT: OK, I lied. I remembered and wanted to share an excellent article from The Economist. It's a couple years old and I can't say I agree with everything in it, but the overall point is made quite well and I probably do agree with 90-95% of it. (It's hidden for the courtesy of people's scroll fingers Click the bar below to expand the admittedly lengthy article)

Quote:
Ever higher society, ever harder to ascend   click to show 
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Last edited by SecretMethod70; 04-15-2007 at 01:20 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-15-2007, 03:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I happen to know several teachers who teach at public schools. A couple of them have told me that their policy is to avoid the racism topic at all, because it is a lose lose for them, and they do not want to go near there for fear of losing their job. Not a great thing for teachers who are responsible for teaching our next generation but that is what our society has created.
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Old 04-15-2007, 03:57 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I want to also thank shesus for the work that she does and I'd like to encourage her not to give up hope.

I was reading her post to my oldest daughter last night who wants to, one day, be a high school art teacher and your post, shesus, inspired her to consider doing so in an inner city school. Your work matters and it inspires even if you're almost never aware of it.
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
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A friend of ours graduated from an ivy league business school and works as a consultant for one of the more elite consulting firms in the country. His salary dwarfs ours – somewhere around $250,000 a year. He has no shortage of stories about how hard it is for him to succeed in his career because of his race. He was one of the last people promoted at his company despite the many reviews he received stating he was one of the most valuable employees at the company. He has been approached by his employers on numerous occasions and told that they would like him to sit in on interviews with prospective employees who are black because he “understands” them. This offends him to no end because he sees himself as a token.

During our conversations, though, he often laments the fact that there are very few qualified black applicants that he sees. He says they are often too informal and behave in the interview as if they are already certain they will not get the job because of their race. He says that when they don’t get the job, he wonders if it is because of their race or if it is because of their behavior during the interview. He will also often comment that there needs to be better role models for young black men and he is tired of being pigeonholed by people whose only exposure to black culture is hip hop and rap.

The other day, shesus had an idea. She invited him to come speak to her students about opportunities. Her idea was that he could possibly inspire her students with his success. And trust me, he’s successful (as an aside, a lot of the new snacks you see from Kraft foods were his idea.) Her idea was that he would come in, tell his story of making it, and the students would learn that you don’t have to be an entertainer to succeed. The idea was encouraging, he could be a temporary role model and the students would see, in person, a young black man who makes a lot of money and does it without rapping, dealing, or shooting hoops. We were taken aback by his response.

“I’m not going out to that ghetto. Are you kidding me?? I don’t feel like getting shot for my watch.”

(note: the use of the word "you" in remainder of this post is being used in the 2nd person. It is not directed at any specific person.)

My experience has been that a lot – a lot – of people who talk about improving the situation refuse to go into those very areas that need the most help because they, too, have stereotyped the ghetto, and you know damn well that you do it. If you suddenly get lost and end up in one of “those” neighborhoods, you get nervous, you lock your car doors, you pray for the light to turn green before that guy on the corner walks over to you and after you get home, you tell all your friends about your adventure getting lost in the ghetto as if it is some kind of novelty. You tell out-of-towners what areas to avoid because they’re the bad part of town, stating your own reasons for not going there. We cannot have an honest debate nor can we hope to ever improve relations as long as we keep kidding ourselves that we have no prejudices of our own or that our prejudices are somehow better or less damaging than someone else’s.

Our friend justified his comments by saying, “I know what my people are like, especially in the ghetto. I’m not being prejudiced, it’s the truth.”

Has he ever set foot in Lawndale or any other of the “bad” neighborhoods of Chicago? No.

As long as we sit back and discuss the problems of economics and race from a distance while refusing to get our hands dirty, then anything we say, while thought-provoking, is ultimately meaningless. Shesus is doing her part on a daily basis. She spent 2 years doing her own research on this very issue for her Master's Degree and goes into those very areas every day to do something to make a change. What are you doing?
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:53 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
(note: the use of the word "you" in remainder of this post is being used in the 2nd person. It is not directed at any specific person.)

My experience has been that a lot – a lot – of people who talk about improving the situation refuse to go into those very areas that need the most help because they, too, have stereotyped the ghetto, and you know damn well that you do it. If you suddenly get lost and end up in one of “those” neighborhoods, you get nervous, you lock your car doors, you pray for the light to turn green before that guy on the corner walks over to you and after you get home, you tell all your friends about your adventure getting lost in the ghetto as if it is some kind of novelty. You tell out-of-towners what areas to avoid because they’re the bad part of town, stating your own reasons for not going there. We cannot have an honest debate nor can we hope to ever improve relations as long as we keep kidding ourselves that we have no prejudices of our own or that our prejudices are somehow better or less damaging than someone else’s.

Our friend justified his comments by saying, “I know what my people are like, especially in the ghetto. I’m not being prejudiced, it’s the truth.”

Has he ever set foot in Lawndale or any other of the “bad” neighborhoods of Chicago? No.

As long as we sit back and discuss the problems of economics and race from a distance while refusing to get our hands dirty, then anything we say, while thought-provoking, is ultimately meaningless. Shesus is doing her part on a daily basis. She spent 2 years doing her own research on this very issue for her Master's Degree and goes into those very areas every day to do something to make a change. What are you doing?
A shame that he doesn't see the forest for the trees.

I live in the historically known area as the Lower East Side, specifially a spot known as Corlear's Hook, supposedly where the term Hooker is originated when the area was rife with sailors and women of ill repute. It historically is known to be poor. Of the 36,000 housing units, 18,000 are low income housing. I can see NYCHA (New York City Housing Authority) projects from my window, the bus I take every morning drives right past them. I walk the neighborhood. Ironically this neighborhood has one of the lowest crime rates of New York City. One of the cited reasons is because of the Henry Street Settlement. I support what Henry Street Settlement does and achieves. I'm not sure just how I can do more without compromising my lifestyle to the point of the focus moves from the lifestyle I've worked hard to enjoy and balance of giving back to the community in some fashion.

Quote:
Founded in 1893 by social work pioneer Lillian Wald and based on Manhattan's Lower East Side, the Henry Street Settlement delivers a wide range of social service and arts programming to more than 100,000 New Yorkers each year. Distinguished by a profound connection to its neighbors, a willingness to address new problems with swift and innovative solutions, and a strong record of accomplishment, Henry Street challenges the effects of urban poverty by helping families achieve better lives for themselves and their children.
Is the person who donates money to a cause giving as much as the social worker who is actually in the trenches doing the work? Some people think not, I tend to think it's part of the ecosystem of how it needs to work because the donator helps provide the funds to make the social workers job possible. Others disagree.
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Kudos again to shesus for her personal commitment. Our country would be a better place with more people like her and less like your friend, to whom I would say "shame on you' for comments like:
“I know what my people are like, especially in the ghetto. I’m not being prejudiced, it’s the truth.”
.IMO...its an absolutely prejudicial observation because it is a gross generalization.

I was raised to give back to the community, but what I do is between me and those with whom I share my time. I dont feel a need to give specifics in order to justify my opinion that we also need to consider the larger issue of the policies and practices that contribute to the perpetuation of poverty, particularly among blacks in the inner-cities.
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:05 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I come from a working class immigrant family - my parents both worked clerical jobs since they moved to the US 23 years ago - my mother was laid off at the age of 62 and my father is still going to work at the same job at the age of 68 for fear that they will have nothing to bury themselves with and leave a burden for us, the kids. I grew up with a lot of mixed messages and very little money. Most of my older siblings who were "less privileged" than I am, having been born abroad instead of in the US, have made out well in their respective professions (most are in IT now, but they all had to sweep the floors at fast food restaurants when they were teenagers in high school).

Sure, I'll agree that many insitutions in this world are set up to be less friendly to some people than to others. That Economist article makes me cringe, though, because those statistics gives too many people the excuse to shirk responsibility for themselves (not to mention that I question the causes they suggest are at root). This is ultimately about a value system, and how individuals choose to build that system.

My parents and teachers and the few advisors I had at public school ALL thought they had my best interest at heart. They all told me a lot of different things about how to make the most of my life and not a one of those things helped. I "broke through" my "disadvantages" by getting into a very elite college and ended up practically flunking out after the first two years of the eye-opening discovery. I have a lot of debt and I don't even have my degree yet! Not a goddamn thing some well-meaning person can tell me will change this, unless it's Donald Trump telling me that he wants to pay off all of my student loans and bankroll the last year or so of my education, no strings attached.

What kept me off the street after I royally fucked up was the combination of generous friends (who gave me resume and interview tips and such) and the realization that I had to take care of myself. Taking care of yourself means a lot more than most people seem to think. Sure, I owe a lot to those friends for their kindness (they are all TFPers and know who they are), but if I hadn't accepted the idea that I was the ONLY PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR MYSELF, then none of that would have mattered.

People may think I'm a racist because I think the _____ people who blindly follow _____ culture are idiots, but I prefer to think of myself as a culturist. How can any single person build the best life they can if they are taking all of their cues from their church or their ethnic traditions or the bling-covered rappers on MTV? The ultra-religious, the yellow dog liberals, the finger wagging environmentalists... nobody's culture has it 100% right. The only thing I know is that I am the only person I can trust to behave in my best interest - not some collective wisdom passed down over the years. I am the only person who can decide that I will be the best person I can be. I am the only person who can make it happen. I happen to believe that most cultures do more to hurt this sense of self than help.

That the bling-bling culture seems to be so attractive to inner-city blacks doesn't have anything to do with the fact that ivy league schools still give preference to legacies (a practice which I find to be less than ideal on its own merits). Maybe it is just too attractive and maybe most inner-city blacks just don't have enough self to start with. My own culture of being Asian (at least what was shoved down my throat) had a lot of aspects that I had to figure out were not for me. It wasn't easy, but it's not impossible. In fact, ever since I realized and accepted that I am the sole entity responsible for myself, it has been easy to accept all of the internal cultural conflicts that I used to struggle with so much. What good is true diversity (of thought, opinion, genetics, appearance) if people never learn how to let the diversity in and discern the good from the bad for themselves?

I suppose it's possible that I happen to have been born with more critical thinking skills than most black people in inner cities or that the hip-hop culture is just too strong a force to resist. (I do find that hard to believe, but I guess it's not impossible.) I mean, it's true that the dominant culture among African-Americans (hip-hop) is more insidiously self-defeating than other cultures. I'm just not sure that it's either largely responsible or free from blame.



JJ - it sounds like your friend has maybe just gotten too accustomed to a life with little change. Sure, the fast world of business has a lot of change, but not of the lifestyle variety - it's more an exercise in changing tactics to play the same game. Going into Shesus' school and talking to those kids is a very different game, but not one that he is incapable of playing. Unless he is scarred from some horrible trauma of his youth that happened in 'the ghetto', you (the general you, not JJ & Shesus you) could probably converse with the guy a bit - kind of like what's happening in this thread - and remind him that he also has the power to take off his Rolex and leave his nice car at home while he rides the metro to the school with Shesus. Either way, I'm sure he has his reasons that are a lot more complicated to explain. It was probably just simpler for him at the time to quip about getting shot. Maybe he does care, but one weekday away from his work is too high a price to pay at this stage of his life.

There may be good guys and bad guys when it comes to creating and perpetuating these institutions that slant the playing field, but I for one am never going to believe that the primary concern of those who have the disadvantage should be to attack those institutions or the people who found a way in but couldn't hold it open for the everyone else. If the front door is locked, find another way into the house. And just because you're on the other side of the 'glass ceiling' (whether you were born there or made your way through) doesn't mean that the people below it are entitled to something of yours, be it your efforts or your money.

No person is equal to another on this earth - and every person must make the decision of what to do with their station in life and how to perceive it, whether they realize it or not.

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Old 04-15-2007, 10:35 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Thanks for your responses. This has always been something that has concerned me. When I got my teaching degree, I wanted to be in an area that really needed a good teacher. I felt that the suburban areas generally have a lot of support. This is why I chose to teach in the inner-city. Mixed, I’m touched that my entry made your daughter want to do the same thing. However, she needs to realize that it is depressing and the burn-out rate is about 5 years or less. I don’t do my job to get pats on the back or to be put on a cross as a martyr. I do it in the hopes that I can make a difference in a child’s life. However, what I am finding is that sometimes that isn’t enough. The daily struggle of fighting against the anti-education values is tough without aid from positive, black role models. The fact that the racial comment ambulance chasers were out this week just brought up all the frustration that I feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
But to start out I'd just like to point out, for the time being, that there are a lot of decent, hardworking people who both:

1. live in the ghettos
and
2. listen to rap music
You make very honest observations. For people to place everyone who lives in these areas and listens to rap in the ‘ghetto fabulous’ living category is where the word prejudice gets its negative connotation. However, when having a discussion, it’s easier to lump people together based on the majority of what one sees. I do have some students who want to succeed, as I said in the OP about 10. They want to be lawyers, doctors, or teachers. They are over-achievers strive for A’s and are the gems of my day in the rather bleak times. However, the value system for the majority is that education is unvalued. Whether that is coming from rap, the ghetto, race, or socio-economic status I can’t say for sure. I know that they hear it on the radio and on television and that they don’t have many positive role models to rebut those thoughts. Yet, I know from my research that the different socio-economic classes have completely different value systems. We all have the same needs, but they are ranked differently based on your background.

My friend and I had a debate last night about how white people are the majority of the audience at hip-hop/rap concerts. I completely agree with this. The fact is that they can afford to go to these concerts, where the ghetto kids cannot. I was a white teenager who wanted to the fabulous ghetto lifestyle. Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Fresh Prince, and Bill Bellamy were part of my inspiration and I wanted to be black to experience what they were singing or talking about. I had no idea what I was wishing for back then because I was so far removed from any of the reality of what the ghetto really is. The reason I wasn’t able to fully emulate that lifestyle was because A) I wasn’t black and living in the ghetto and B) I had a supportive, middle-class family to kick my butt back in gear and tell me that school is the most important thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Now imagine if this apartment complex were the ghetto and the dog owners and their dog shit were drug dealers (that you feared) and liquor bottles and crack pipes and used condoms and the apartment management were an overworked, poorly staffed and funded municipal government. And imagine if you were living in these conditions and working two jobs just to get by and trying to keep your kids out of trouble. You might feel helpless and powerless to effect change in your community and unable to move somewhere else because you can barely afford the rent or the house payment in your ghetto home. I think we misplace a lot of frustration we feel over the situation in our ghettos and inner cities. We put the burden for solving it onto the shoulders of those who are the most powerless to do anything about it.
I see people that are in these situations. As mentioned earlier, not everyone wants to live like this and they are trying to get out. However, this is where the victim syndrome kicks in. My problem with this is that the parents are in these situations wanting to get out, but are not instilling in their children the positive ways of escaping. Instead of aiding their future generations to succeed, they are keeping them down and continuing the cycle. I’m not sure if this is because the parents are afraid they’ll be abandoned when their children graduate or if they really don’t understand that the free education their child is supposed to be getting is the key to a better lifestyle.

The problem that remains though is that these families can’t make it out of their situation as it stands. This is where the people that can help don’t because as was mentioned in a previous post, it’s easier to jump up and down and scream instead of getting your hands dirty fixing the real problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
The disparities in education funding (shesus - compare your school to a school in a wealthy or middle class suburb - the basic infrastruture, the teaching tools, etc. that make for a far less inviting learning environment).
This is very true. I have taught in rural, middle-class, and now a low-income area schools. The funding and materials supplied to each school is not equal. However, what we do have in the schools is not taken care of. The students don’t appreciate what they are given either because of the lack of value placed on education or that they were never taught how to take care of things. It’s to the point where I hate to buy things for my students such as paper, pencils, markers, glue, etc. This is because the pencils will be lost during the day, the paper will be balled up to practice shooting hoops or to be tossed at each other, the caps are left of the markers and the supplies are scattered on the floor. When asked to pick the materials up, the typical response is “Man, that’s not mine, I didn’t do that.” I explain that I realize it’s not theirs per se but it belongs to the classroom and it is next to their desk so the responsible thing to do is to just take the 10 seconds pick it up and put it away. They still refuse and then they whine when the markers are dried up, they have nothing to write with or on, and the calculators are busted. There are only 15 working calculators even though we started with 30. I teach the students how to care for materials and how to clean up, but the students do what they want to do generally. I stop buying so many things and I start locking up the supplies to attempt to save the ones that are left. Therefore, I don’t blame the district for wanting the money to go to areas where the students will actually care for and use the materials instead of destroying them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
And as to rap, doesnt some country music (at least before it became more mainstream) promote alcholism, adultery, "taking that job and shoving it" ?
Yes, it does. This is where I’m not so sure that it is so much a racial problem as a socio-economic one. Every race has a section of it that doesn’t value education and chooses poor role models. However, white people aren’t screaming and jumping up and down about people calling them white trash, trailer trash, and inappropriate lyrics in songs. When that happens, then it will be the same situation.

I found this article, When Does a Black Join Middle Class? By Ralph Ellison, and thought this snippet of it was appropriate here:

Quote:
The responsibility of black leadership is to impress upon their constituencies the urgency of taking full advantage of these cultural tools. That is the only way they can develop a middle-class appreciation for literature, learning and the arts—which, in turn, is the only way out of the poverty and degradation of urban ghettoes and into modern American society.
The whole article can be read here if you are interested: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...p?document=693

I find it depressing that this article was written in 1975 and is still relevant today. It makes me wonder if these issues will ever clear up or if the wheels will just keep spinning as the cycle goes on and on.
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 04-15-2007, 10:57 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
As long as we sit back and discuss the problems of economics and race from a distance while refusing to get our hands dirty, then anything we say, while thought-provoking, is ultimately meaningless. Shesus is doing her part on a daily basis. She spent 2 years doing her own research on this very issue for her Master's Degree and goes into those very areas every day to do something to make a change. What are you doing?
Indeed. Economic disparity between races is all too easy to "discuss." Sure, having knowledge of what the issues are that contribute to the problem is important...but there comes a time when it's important to say, "ok, I have a good idea what's at play here, now I'm going to do something about it." Sadly, not many people do that. I've done a fair amount of volunteering at various organizations which attempt to address the issue, and for a city as big as Chicago I find it sad when I see how few people volunteer to help out at places that are doing so much to help the underprivileged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supple Cow
Sure, I'll agree that many insitutions in this world are set up to be less friendly to some people than to others. That Economist article makes me cringe, though, because those statistics gives too many people the excuse to shirk responsibility for themselves (not to mention that I question the causes they suggest are at root). This is ultimately about a value system, and how individuals choose to build that system.
No question about it, it's easy to be fatalistic about it, but The Economist doesn't ignore that point - it explicitly mentions it as one of the problems that exist. It's just not a problem the article focused on. Rather, the point is to illustrate that there are many things working against racial and economic equality in American society, and both the cultural and structural problems feed off of each other. It's not at all that people shouldn't try, just that it takes 50x the effort for someone to rise out of poverty than it does for someone to go from the "lower middle class" to the "upper middle class." Ultimately, I think the debate is a matter of semantics. Do we demand that underprivileged persons first "prove" that they are capable of a strong work ethic, or do we focus the majority of our energies toward removing the numerous structural barriers to success that they face so that they don't have to be super-humans to make it out of poverty? Personally, I think we have a great responsibility, as slightly privileged or highly privileged people, to put effort towards fixing those structural barriers. As I said, the structural and cultural issues feed off of each other, and these issues are still part of our legacy of slavery. Rather than expect people in poverty (who, when we trace it back along the generations, were typically not put into poverty by any fault of their ancestors) to be super-humans with super-motivation and super-intelligence, we need to make it so that normal humans with normal motivation and normal intelligence can earn a living wage, regardless of what class they were born into.

It's the chicken and the egg. As far as I can tell, structural inequality came first, and structural inequality needs to be addressed first if we, as a society, are going to have any real success on this issue. Naturally, the cultural issues should be addressed simultaneously, and part of that is doing things like teaching in underprivileged neighborhoods. Indeed, my posts are not in any way meant to undervalue the importance of such efforts, or to imply that there are not also difficulties faced in them, but I'm uncomfortable getting too frustrated with the people who are born into poverty when there are such glaring structural issues that no one in government (or society as a whole) truly seems to want to address, especially since doing so would utterly destroy the myth of the American Dream.

(Incidentally, The Economist is a strong advocate of classical liberalism (which, in America, is generally perceived as economic conservatism. Think Milton Friedman.). For them to be lambasting America's so-called meritocracy says a great deal.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shesus
I’m not sure if this is because the parents are afraid they’ll be abandoned when their children graduate or if they really don’t understand that the free education their child is supposed to be getting is the key to a better lifestyle.
I suspect, in many cases, it's the latter. See below.
Quote:
I do have some students who want to succeed, as I said in the OP about 10. They want to be lawyers, doctors, or teachers. They are over-achievers strive for A’s and are the gems of my day in the rather bleak times. However, the value system for the majority is that education is unvalued.
If I may make a rather sad conjecture, perhaps part of the problem is that, in the end, most of those overachievers will still not succeed despite their normal-human motivation. Most people are aware of this, and it takes a super-human to not let such a depressing fact prevent you from also being motivated. Of course, this isn't an excuse for lacking motivation, but it certainly contributes to the cause.
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Old 04-15-2007, 11:25 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Well written Shesus, and to many other people!
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Old 04-15-2007, 12:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I typically dislike threads like these, as there are far too many assumptions/generalizations for my taste.
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Old 04-15-2007, 12:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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SMeth - I understand what you are saying about that article and I realize what it means that the Economist printed it. My main point is that this discussion is perhaps getting too academic - how much will any given individual's life change based on either (a) the existing institutions making themselves less of a hurdle or (b) that individual accepting and embracing their own responsibility for what they do with what they have? I believe, based on my personal experience, that the latter is far more effective.

On a separate note...

"Personally, I think we have a great responsibility, as slightly privileged or highly privileged people, to put effort towards fixing those structural barriers. As I said, the structural and cultural issues feed off of each other, and these issues are still part of our legacy of slavery."

I'm not sure what to do with this statement, because it sort of sounds like you are saying everyone on this forum (or just those who have responded to this thread) are among those "slightly" or "highly privileged" people. For one thing, I consider myself neither disadvantaged nor privileged. I think that is a slippery slope to say that at some arbitrary point where people have enough 'privilege' (as defined by?), they start owing other people.

The legacy of slavery in the United States is between white and black Americans, but I don't even think that the concept of legacy is useful in any particular way. It's not beneficial to Jews today to hate or fear Germans. Why is it that White = Slaveowner Legacy and German =\= Nazi? Why does slavery need to have a legacy? What distinguishes it from other atrocities of the past? Why isn't this about the Africans (who chose to sell their fellow Africans into slavery) being evil the way we demonize Hitler? (These are just topics I'm using to frame the concept of legacy. I don't want to have a discussion about slavery and the Holocaust and which was worse.)

I don't disagree that it might be 50x harder for a black inner-city kid to achieve some kind of socio-economic fluency, but I don't agree that the institutionalized 'legacy of slavery' is the best place to start.

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Old 04-16-2007, 12:04 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:37 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shesus
Mixed, I’m touched that my entry made your daughter want to do the same thing. However, she needs to realize that it is depressing and the burn-out rate is about 5 years or less. I don’t do my job to get pats on the back or to be put on a cross as a martyr. I do it in the hopes that I can make a difference in a child’s life. However, what I am finding is that sometimes that isn’t enough. The daily struggle of fighting against the anti-education values is tough without aid from positive, black role models. The fact that the racial comment ambulance chasers were out this week just brought up all the frustration that I feel.
Both of my older daughters want to teach and they want to teach high school. Both being either in or recently out of high school themselves (with heavily diverse student bodies), they have a pretty good idea of what they are up against. And believe me, we have had long conversations about the behavior of black kids in their schools. This is not something that is completely foreign to our everyday experience. And we have been able to come to a mutual understanding that what we are seeing is the result of something much deeper than clothing or words or music.

My oldest daughter, the one I referred to in my previous post, has two goals in life:

To do something worthwhile with her talent for art.
And to help people who really need it.

She's been through quite a lot in her short life, as well, which may or may not make her more well-suited to try and teach art to kids who aren't finding life to be a bed of roses, as well. Not to mention her exceptional capacity to find compassion and understanding in her heart. She's not a martyr, but she's special.



Quote:
You make very honest observations. For people to place everyone who lives in these areas and listens to rap in the ‘ghetto fabulous’ living category is where the word prejudice gets its negative connotation.
Where the word prejudice gets its negative connotation? As in it has a positive connotation? I think something went over my head here, lol.


Quote:
However, when having a discussion, it’s easier to lump people together based on the majority of what one sees. I do have some students who want to succeed, as I said in the OP about 10. They want to be lawyers, doctors, or teachers. They are over-achievers strive for A’s and are the gems of my day in the rather bleak times. However, the value system for the majority is that education is unvalued. Whether that is coming from rap, the ghetto, race, or socio-economic status I can’t say for sure. I know that they hear it on the radio and on television and that they don’t have many positive role models to rebut those thoughts. Yet, I know from my research that the different socio-economic classes have completely different value systems. We all have the same needs, but they are ranked differently based on your background.
Well, I just have one thing to offer to this, that might lend a little more depth to your observation - which I think is largely true. My sister spent three years teaching high school English and Creative Writing. Two years at a private Jewish school in Ft. Lauderdale and a year at the "best" public high school in Orlando. The latter position included teaching an Honors English class. She quit after three years expressing extreme dismay at the attitude of the, mostly white, mostly upper middle to upper class, students about the value of education and their ability to interpret and critique even the most basic literary allegory. They were disrespectful and unmoved by her passion for writing and literature. Like you, there were only a handful of students that she felt like she touched. What were most of them concerned with? Clothing, music, images, lifestyles, material possessions, being cool, being tough. What did most of them want to be when they "grew up"? In anything that made them a lot of money. So what are the differences really, between the kids that you see everyday, shesus, and these kids that my sister saw everyday? Environment and opportunity, as far as I can tell. The white kids want to get MBAs or MDs. The black kids want to deal drugs or be rappers.

This is not a phenomena distinct to poor black students. It is an American phenomena that is, yes, most pronounced in our poorest neighborhoods but is also affecting even the most advantaged of our kids.

I think we need to be really careful when we're talking about this issue because, really, it comes down to whether you think the ghettos are that way because of socio-economic imbalances or because the people living in them are black.

I want to address the rest of your post when I can, but I don't have the time right now.

I want to thank you again for starting this thread. I've had these ideas rolling around in my head for some time now and it's good to get them out and try to make sense of them.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:14 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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i am playing catchup with other work so only have a minute here..but i wanted to raise a couple of questions up front...maybe i can get back to this later on. the op is interesting. there is always a problem with such writing though as the linkage between the anecdotal and systematic is trickier to navigate than it appears. it is particularly tricky in ancillary places: so you might be sociologically oriented in some parts (school funding levels, for example) and a curious effect of doing it in some areas is that it generates the impression that the whole of the piece operates from a sociologically informed perspective, so that personal attitudes/tastes/preferences of the writer come to stand in as sociological arguments, when the fact is that they are just substituted for them.

on hip hop. it seems to me that the basic argument that is really outlined in the op is that you, shesus, dont really like the music. you dont seem to know much about it, reacting to it largely at the level of conservative stereotypes concerning it, which strangely enough echo several generations of exactly the same kind of attacks on pop music (rock and roll will ruin america; punk will ruin america--all these "deviant" attitudes--why what is going on here? harump harumph)...

i would make a very hard distinction between levels of interaction with hip hop: if kids find it fascinating enough to try to do the music, then the situation it entails is very different from the one you outline, which is restricted to vague pronouncements about the fictive "lifestyle" you see promoted in the tiresome videos. for example: you might not like mcs, but it is really not easy to do it well. it requires attention to writing, attention to the form, attention to delivery--it requires practice, dedication, perseverance. to become a turntablist requires an enormous amount of practice--have you tried it?--it's easy to make sound, but not at all easy to do anything interesting--it requires attention, listening skills of a very high order, practice, patience, dedication---same goes for making beats--this is a type of composition which requires very considerable skills listening, in audio processing, composition; it requires a thorough knowledge of not only the form but also of wider fields of music (as does working turntables).

even something as straightforward as beatmatching is not obvious.

the advantages of participation in the making of hip hop would run beyond this: it would be a political exercise in the creative re-appropriation of social conditions, their creative transformation--it would also lead into an experience of self-organization, of planning, etc. but mostly, it is a break with passivity. i dont see the downside of it. i also dont see any trace of these aspects of hip hop in the corporate marketing of the mainstream form of this music.

there is an extensive hip hop underground--i am still learning about it in chicago and expect i will be still learning about it for some time--it is a diffuse, complex scene in which skills are far more highly valued than they are in more mainstream hip hop--you get a much heavier presence of more political or conscious rappers in the underground--where is the downside of that?

if you want to not think too much about hip hop as a form, as a still-viable and often vibrant underground access to which presupposes all the virtues outlined above in terms of the acquisition of skills---and want instead to focus on mainstream hiphop--not even in itself, but in terms shaped by ts marketing--then it makes little sense to act as though what you are responding to is not caught up in the system of corporate reproduction of a pop form (which the majors do not do well, reducing every form they touch to its most tiresome, repeatable, marketable elements) but also in the corporate marketing of that form.

what you react to then is primarily the set of devices that record labels have decided to use to maintain their market share.

you could have written the same kind of thing about any pop form. i detest country-western. i could say parallel things about it to what you say in the op: because i dont like the music, i see in its popular presentation alot of jingoism, say. but my brother is a bluegrass musician and while i dont enjoy the form, i understand the dedication that is required to play it well, so it would make little sense to not make a separation between how the form is marketed and what goes into making music based on that form.

it does not in the end matter if you do not like hip hop or if i do not like country music. neither says anything about the value that can be taken from involvement with the making of music, or the making of art more generally. personally, i think that these values are far more important than anything to be taken away from sports programs, and i do not understand why art and music are not funded for that reason as extensively as sports programs are, why they are not seen as serious types of activity.

that you do not like the outputs is a simple aesthetic matter.
and you do not have to like it to see in the doing of it quite important skills the acquisition of which are also quite important for all kinds of reasons.

there is more, but i'll leave it off here for now. hope this makes sense as i am writing very quickly...
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:06 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I think it also bears mentioning here that the "white culture," that culture which has so much more basis in "values," is a major contributor to the perpetuation of both illegal drugs and gangster/ghetto rap music.
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Where the word prejudice gets its negative connotation? As in it has a positive connotation? I think something went over my head here, lol.
I should have made that comment clearer. What I was trying to point out is that everyone is prejudice. Some prejudice is an everyday thing that people don’t see as negative per se. Here are a couple of examples of non-negative prejudgments. Everyone walks down the street and prejudges people as they see them based on clothing, actions, etc. You see a woman with expensive clothes walking down the street yapping on her cell phone, you make a snap judgment of her personality. When you see a man in sweats running down the street, you make a prejudgment. There is no action made from these prejudgments, but they are made. When people walk in for interviews, they are prejudged based on their outward appearance and body language. However, when hateful acts or language are the product of prejudgments, it becomes negative and no one wants to be associated with it. Since this is the main use of the word prejudice, to call someone prejudice is almost like calling him or her a 4-letter word even though everybody is prejudice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
This is not a phenomena distinct to poor black students. It is an American phenomena that is, yes, most pronounced in our poorest neighborhoods but is also affecting even the most advantaged of our kids.

I think we need to be really careful when we're talking about this issue because, really, it comes down to whether you think the ghettos are that way because of socio-economic imbalances or because the people living in them are black.
That is the tough issue. As I mentioned before, I did my Action Research Project for my Master’s degree on teaching this area. This project became much bigger than I anticipated because I opened up a huge can of worms. The surface of the problem is in this thread, but it goes much deeper and it’s pretty much left up to how far you want to travel down the rabbit hole. I had to stop eventually because I was hitting deadlines.

What I found is not only a racial clash, but a value clash. Values are set by people and vary from race, economic background, religious backgrounds, etc. When doing my research I found that the lower-economic class generally values entertainment and personal relationships. Middle class values focus more on success with material wealth and personal relationships. I will dig out my papers if people want links and sources, but it’s buried somewhere from the move last year. But the gist is:
Quote:
The researcher stated that the lower class lives for the present. Surviving paycheck to paycheck and wondering how to provide the next meal, the lower class’s focus is on “now” and how to get through today.

According to the presenter, the middle class lives for the future. Without the worry of daily survival, this class works hard to forward its position in society. Parents in this class encourage their kids to work hard and go to school, hoping for the next generation to make it farther than their own.

Finally the presenter stated that the upper class lives for the past. With the pressure on to maintain the family name and not squander the family’s fortune, members of the upper class feel a strong sense of tradition and spend their time working to uphold that standard.
School is based on the middle-class values because teachers are living those values. The problem is that the students can’t relate to the teachers and vice versa. Once the problem is realized the teacher can work around it, but it is difficult. When these children are used to living just for now and not for the future, it’s hard to explain to them that they need to learn and work now in order to meet the goals for the future. They honestly believe that a scout will just walk by their empty lot one day and see them playing football and sign them on.

Anyway, the problem isn’t just racial and it isn’t just economic status, it’s a combination of those 2 things and many other factors. However, since I work in a black, low-economic area, I am trying to find answers for me, which is why this was initially a journal entry so that I could sort out thoughts and continue to search out ways to improve my teaching so that I could better reach my students. However, I’m glad that I made it into a post because the insights and discussion going on is amazing and I thank everyone for your input.

Roachboy: I don’t have a problem with hip-hop music. I’m not a member of the ‘music is going to destroy the nation’ camp. The reason that rap is brought up in this thread is because of the hypocrisy it poses with the Imus situation last week. I also think that it is a factor in the way black students act because they do look up to the rappers, which doesn’t always paint the most realistic and positive images. Which leads to my main issue: there is a lack of positive black role models.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:45 PM   #27 (permalink)
 
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shesus...I dont know what grade you teach, but perhaps you can use hip-hop or rap to your advantage (although I was more of a deadhead)

Tolerance.org has lessons plans for all ages:
Acknowledging the political and social landscape that nourished the roots of hip hop culture, more educators are embracing this musical form to teach across disciplines and engage students in fresh new ways.
http://www.tolerance.org/teach/activ...ity.jsp?ar=815
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I actually have something to add. This while probably only reinforce points brought up in this thread but meh... Whatever.

If black people want to organize themselves and figure out what's 'wrong' with the race as a whole, then I'm all for it. What I DO have a problem with, however, is when you have a group of non-minorities who feel obligated to discuss what's 'wrong' with another race; That really pisses me and a fair amount of other black people off to no end. Why? Because it's like you're trying to flaunt your 'superiority'. The views of those looking in aren't always accurate.

Just my $.02 on the matter. As I said , I typically avoid these discussions because there are too many assumptions/generalizations for my taste.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:01 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, and I understand. But to be fair, I hardly think I was trying to assert my superiority. Rather, I tried in the best way I know how, to assert why I think we are a lot more similar in values, abilities and circumstances than is, it seems, popularly believed. I meant no offense.
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Old 04-17-2007, 03:52 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I also understand what you are saying I_L. However, I don't feel superior. Do you think that Americorp and other organizations who help others out are feeling superior and flaunting an 'I'm better than you attitude'? I can't speak for others, but as MM and I have said, we live/work in these areas. I'm only speaking about what I am observing everyday and what I have found through my 2 years of research. And acutally, this thread isn't completely focusing on race as it evolves, but also socio-economic status, which is affecting a lot more than just the black race. And what is emerging now is that maybe it's the American society as a whole.

I am more of a person who sees a problem and wants to try to help others succeed. This is the land of opportunity, at least that's what we're told. I would like to see everyone have equal opportunities through hard work and effort. I'm doing my part to help as a teacher.

You can feel pissed and think that people are making assumptions/generalizations and sit back not worrying about anyone else but yourself or your own race/class. However, couldn't that be seen just as negative on its own merit? I'm in no way attacking you or enforcing any superior air. I'm just wondering why you think the way that you do other than 'too many assumptions'. What exactly have people assumed wrong? If I've made wrong assumptions, I'd like to be corrected or at least be able to explain. Do you think that people should only work with people of their own race and background? I, personally, would appreciate another viewpoint, especially if it doesn't agree because, I don't know about others, but that's how I learn and grow as a person.

Oh dc_dux: Thanks for the information yesterday, we are enrolled in that program. Also, I looked into using rap a few of years ago. However, with the language and situations in most of the songs the kids liked, I didn't want to jeopardize my job. For the past couple years, I taught first grade, so they were into cheesy rap songs that I made up and learned a lot through those for science and math. This year, the sixth graders don't find my songs so cool.
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Old 04-17-2007, 06:32 AM   #31 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
They were disrespectful and unmoved by her passion for writing and literature. Like you, there were only a handful of students that she felt like she touched. What were most of them concerned with? Clothing, music, images, lifestyles, material possessions, being cool, being tough. What did most of them want to be when they "grew up"? In anything that made them a lot of money. So what are the differences really, between the kids that you see everyday, shesus, and these kids that my sister saw everyday? Environment and opportunity, as far as I can tell. The white kids want to get MBAs or MDs. The black kids want to deal drugs or be rappers.
This was my initial thought as well. I taught high school English and History in Seattle Public Schools, as well a public school in the Seattle suburbs where I grew up (both regular and Honors classes). I also taught ESL to elementary and junior-high school kids in Iceland and Thailand.

Nearly ALL of them fit the profile above. Very few of them, no matter how rich or poor, no matter how well-funded the school or not, no matter the color of their skin, gave a damn about school. I "reached" maybe 5% of them, on a good day, but probably less overall. Most of the ones I reached were dorky/nerdy kids like I used to be in school, and were the ones who didn't care about fashion or music or whatever. The rest were just biding their time, hoping to graduate, and go out and do whatever they wanted in the world... or maybe do nothing.

Aside from class, environment, and opportunity (all valid reasons), I just wanted to add that sometimes, kids just DON'T LIKE SCHOOL, no matter where they came from or what their parents are like. I would think this is true for the majority of students, wherever they are. Now, if kids don't like school but their parents still force them to study and do well... then we're back to class and environment again.
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Old 04-18-2007, 09:23 PM   #32 (permalink)
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First off, Bravo to the OP. Very well put

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Two quick examples:
The disparities in education funding (shesus - compare your school to a school in a wealthy or middle class suburb - the basic infrastruture, the teaching tools, etc. that make for a far less inviting learning environment).
This argument may apply in some places, however, if you look at which state has the lowest student spending, it is Utah, by a long shot. However if you look at test scores, literacy and people moving on to college, Utah is consistantly one of the highest in the nation. Clearly funding is not the real issue here.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:09 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Then why don't you tell us what the real issue is? Why won't anyone of you just come out and say it?
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:42 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I think it's apparent that there is no one "real" issue... there are so many cultural and political and socio-economic forces acting on everyone every second of the day. How can you point the finger at one thing? We all choose our own demons and champions in the end. That's why my own thoughts on this subject revolve around personal responsibility rather than things that are somebody else's fault.

Sure, most of the things that people mention here are indeed at work on some level, but they are by no means mutually exclusive. The fact that they work in concert (though it may not be toward a single, obvious goal) is what makes it so hard to 'deal' with.

I can only speak for myself, though. The others who say that people are missing the point have their own reasons. I'm not sure why they won't share them, but if it's because they think we shouldn't be discussing this - then I say they are wrong. This is exactly the kind of thing people should be encouraged to discuss.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:29 AM   #35 (permalink)
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My assertion is that there are nearly intractable cultural, political and socio-economic forces acting on black Americans, in particular those living in inner cities but, also in rural communities with depressed economies, that make something as virtuous and uncomplicated as personal responsibility an exceedingly obscure and circuitous route that a small percentage of the lucky and exceedingly determined can navigate. I assert that we (America) have ignored this situation and it has become a cultural phenomena that is mired generations and generations deep into a culture of abjection and dispiritedness. But still, these millions should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Where are they going to go? I know that immigrants come here and do this, I know, I know. But that is different in that they are coming here and starting fresh. They are getting away from their bad situations. Not trying to make it in spite of them.

I just think there is way too little understanding on this issue.

And as for rap music...think of it this way. Rap music is an artistic expression. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. A lot of people didn't like "piss Jesus" either, but people like us will fall over ourselves to defend an artist's right to express themselves however they choose. But as far as rap music goes, you want to chip away and censor the one lucrative and recognized form of expression that they have right now. Rap music has brought a lot of young men and women out of the ghettos.

I just think people need to think more deeply on this issue and realize that a lot of what is being said on threads like this legitimizes the concepts that drove the anti-desegration movement. Sorry if you don't like it and don't want to own that, I wouldn't want to either, but it's the truth.
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