State of the TFP (Long) - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Jazz · 02-04-2007, 12:20 PM

OK, I still don't get what's broken, despite NG's post. I can understand if this is a simple conversation about increasing the ranks, but I think it's fair to say that we're all well past that, and I think that one issue has been a minor part of the discussion anyway.

As far as the mood goes, what mood? There's some collective mood around here? The other day when Shani was ready to kill anyone who crossed her path, I was fine. There's no mention of impending doom that I've noticed. The only time I've ever been "moderated" was when I told a noob to basically look something up themselves, and I deserved it. Maybe I'm not reading the threads where all the personal attacks are going on, but even over in Politics things generally stay fairly civil (most of the time). Even over there, a gentle reminder to "relax" usually calms things down fairly quickly. So again, where's the problem? It seems more like real life to me than any pervasive problem with moderation or lack there of.

As far as any "edge" goes, I think a definition is in order or at least a description of the types of threads that someone feels are lacking.

Edit: for the record, my singling out of Shani was only the first example that came to mind. Normally she's quite nicer than I am.

ShaniFaye · 02-04-2007, 12:37 PM

(just for the record my mood had nothing at all to do with TFP lol....it was those other dreaded initials....PMS)

highthief · 02-04-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

I am just as guilty as anyone about not welcoming new members; I rarely visit Newbies and don't remember the last time I posted in the Welcome to the Board area. New blood is essential for continued growth, and if new members aren't feeling welcome, why should they stick around?

Yeah, and you know, we can all do this - doesn't matter if it is Halx or moderators or members of the community.

I'm going to make a point of popping in there once in a while just to say "Hey".

EaseUp · 02-04-2007, 02:48 PM

My observations, including a little bit of searching:

The basic premise was highly successful. What does the screen say, the record in 2004 was 1200 people on at once? It was apparently due to the porn connection, so the decision was made to eliminate the site's no. 1 draw. Now we wonder why there aren't more new members.

I'm a member of several other forums, and frankly, they are now more entertaining. When I post here, I always wonder if what I say is going to get me a warning, or banned. There is evidence that others feel the same way, and it stifles lively debate.

I pretty much have decided to speak my mind, and if I get banned, it's off to the other forums. While I'm on that subject, the guy who told me about TFP got banned. There was some crazy message about his IP, and he must be a duplicate account. We happen to live in one of the first totally wired communities, and I can only guess that was the cause. He was not broken-hearted; in fact, he didn't even bother to communicate the mistake. However, I now wonder if at some point I will be banned because of my IP. Or because I logged on using a friend's computer.

On that subject, I will mention another reason the other forums are more fun--the lack of buttinski mods. There was one thread I saw yesterday along the lines of "ask an unemployed black man anything." And they DID.

"How can you afford all your fried chicken now?" "Do you have 8 kids?" "How big is your dick?"

And you know what? He just rolled with it, and no mods interfered. By the second page, even the obnoxious members were telling other obnoxious people to STFU when they made rude comments.

Around here, warnings and bans would have flown. Unless it was a mod making the offensive statements. Or one of the mod favorites who have been described elsewhere. There was one jackass here who talked about killing cats, and anyone who told him he was a douche nozzle would have been banned. Having mods who want to be big shots by throwing their weight around is not the way to keep members. If a bar owner hired bouncers who wanted to fight every unruly patron, that bar would soon be out of business. I won't name the mods, but other people already have, if you care to research it.

You wanted a straight answer? There it is. It will be awhile before I log back on, so now I can enjoy the suspense of whether or not I'm banned.

Cheers.

Halx · 02-04-2007, 02:59 PM

I think its kinda funny how defensive your post was, EaseUp. Nobody ever got a warning by speaking their mind in a mature fashion. You communicated your point quite well. Thanks.

Sage · 02-04-2007, 03:07 PM

Wow.

Hal, you're doing a great job. I really like TFP, and I understand that it's going to evolve, and that the evolution is driven by the people who are on the board. Right now, everyone knows everyone, and honestly you can only talk about so many things with a group of people before it starts to get boring. If porn is going to bring new faces to TFP, then let it. We'll deal with the assholes as they come, and seperate the wheat from the chaff.

That being said, if we DO actually get new people on the TFP, then there's going to have to be some wrist slapping among the people who've been on here forever. It IS a henhouse sometimes, and there when I felt I had to step away for a while it was because I honestly felt like since I wasn't a member of the clique of cool people that my posts didn't count. This is TFP, it's supposed to be a DISCUSSION board (kinda like a seminar in college, I feel). If you want to go somewhere to feel important and loved and in a clique, go play Second Life- it's free too.

Part of what makes the internet fun and humorous is, well, humor. Being silly and stupid. Having people express their opnions and letting them say stuff they wanna say. We can totally make sure that threads don't deteriorate into a flame war, but for fuck's sake y'all, we're all adults. I don't want to feel like someone is going to start whining if I express an opnion that differs from theirs- and that's happened to me. I've totally posted trying to give someone advice and pointing out what I didn't like about previously posted advice, only to have my post be dissected because "ZOMG! YOU DIDN'T AGREE WITH ME!!"

There's reasons why threads like this would have been met with "QQ" or "TLDR" or "L2P" in other forums- because this is the internet, not real life. I deal with snot nosed tattletale kids all day, cause it's my job. The last thing I want to have on a message board is snot nosed tattletale adults. I don't think TFP needs a "goverment" or a "court" to moderate posts- just four or five really good, level headed, dedicated mods and Halx to make sure things are going as HE wants them too. Because what it boils down to is that this is HIS board, HE created it, and honestly he can do whatever he damn well pleases with it IMO.

Martel · 02-04-2007, 03:10 PM

No offense to anyone, but this is an internet forum, right?

A place where people get together to talk about stuff?

Why does an internet forum NEED politics or leaders or whatever? Why can't we all just get together and talk about stuff? It is always obvious when someone is being an ass, and they can be dealt with in appropriate ways. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I didn't even KNOW there was something "happening" with TFP until I read this thread.

JumpinJesus · 02-04-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage

Wow.

Hal, you're doing a great job. I really like TFP, and I understand that it's going to evolve, and that the evolution is driven by the people who are on the board. Right now, everyone knows everyone, and honestly you can only talk about so many things with a group of people before it starts to get boring. If porn is going to bring new faces to TFP, then let it. We'll deal with the assholes as they come, and seperate the wheat from the chaff.

That being said, if we DO actually get new people on the TFP, then there's going to have to be some wrist slapping among the people who've been on here forever. It IS a henhouse sometimes, and there when I felt I had to step away for a while it was because I honestly felt like since I wasn't a member of the clique of cool people that my posts didn't count. This is TFP, it's supposed to be a DISCUSSION board (kinda like a seminar in college, I feel). If you want to go somewhere to feel important and loved and in a clique, go play Second Life- it's free too.

Part of what makes the internet fun and humorous is, well, humor. Being silly and stupid. Having people express their opnions and letting them say stuff they wanna say. We can totally make sure that threads don't deteriorate into a flame war, but for fuck's sake y'all, we're all adults. I don't want to feel like someone is going to start whining if I express an opnion that differs from theirs- and that's happened to me. I've totally posted trying to give someone advice and pointing out what I didn't like about previously posted advice, only to have my post be dissected because "ZOMG! YOU DIDN'T AGREE WITH ME!!"

There's reasons why threads like this would have been met with "QQ" or "TLDR" or "L2P" in other forums- because this is the internet, not real life. I deal with snot nosed tattletale kids all day, cause it's my job. The last thing I want to have on a message board is snot nosed tattletale adults. I don't think TFP needs a "goverment" or a "court" to moderate posts- just four or five really good, level headed, dedicated mods and Halx to make sure things are going as HE wants them too. Because what it boils down to is that this is HIS board, HE created it, and honestly he can do whatever he damn well pleases with it IMO.

Great post, Sage.

snowy · 02-04-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage

I don't think TFP needs a "goverment" or a "court" to moderate posts- just four or five really good, level headed, dedicated mods and Halx to make sure things are going as HE wants them too. Because what it boils down to is that this is HIS board, HE created it, and honestly he can do whatever he damn well pleases with it IMO.

I don't really agree with the sentiment that this is Hal's board and he can do whatever he wants with it. I look at it this way: Hal is the one who put up the easel, the canvas, and gave us the paints; what has been created has been created by us, all together. Hal has largely just given us the tools by which we all communicate here; we are responsible for the conversation now taking place. I also see this place a bit like a company--Hal is the CEO, and therefore is accountable to the shareholders--those who have donated. Despite the fact that yes, this is his board since he started it, it's also ours because we contributed to it, and we continue to do so both monetarily and creatively. TFP would be a very lonely place without its users.

That said, I don't like the general sense of negativity that the recent start of Concept: Anarchy has brought over to this forum, and I don't like people mentioning drama over there here. To me, that's a whole other world I'm frankly not interested in being part of or interested in hearing about.

As for the state of the TFP, we seem to have these threads every couple of months or so, someone making some doomsday prediction about the TFP. All I can say is that there are two things bugging me: 1) I don't like that people are somehow feeling threatened by the mods and are too self-censoring. That's not what this place is about. This place is about discussion, and it's about being able to disagree with other people or being able to say what you want but being able to say it in such a way that it's not hurtful or offensive. We are about sophisticated conversation here--a well-handled rapier would make its point here versus a blunt object, if you catch my drift. We all need to feel free to say what we want to say, as long as it's well-stated. 2) Some mods have not been good examples of activity--either by not posting enough, not being involved enough in the boards, or by seeming to disregard the rules they are meant to uphold. I can think of specific examples of this, and so if any administrator is interested in seeing what bothers me specifically, feel free to PM me.

That is really about it for me. I've been here a long time, and I will continue to be here. I have made a lot of friends in real life from this place, and a lot of internet friends too. And as much as some people might say "it's just a message board"--it's still a place I really enjoy and want to succeed.

Halx · 02-04-2007, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

I can think of specific examples of this, and so if any administrator is interested in seeing what bothers me specifically, feel free to PM me.

Or you could PM me? I'm fairly certain that I'm aware of 95% of the things that go on that people are irked about. However for that other 5%, I have to rely on the members to actually come to me about them, so I can address them.

Maveric · 02-04-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

BTW: in a nutshell, the reason TFP isn't doing as well as it used to is due to new members being bitch slapped anytime they create a new thread that's not 1,000 characters long or when their thread is closed when they didn't use the search feature to find the other similar thread from 2003 that is dead.

Quoted for Truth...

ngdawg · 02-04-2007, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

OK, I still don't get what's broken, despite NG's post. I can understand if this is a simple conversation about increasing the ranks, but I think it's fair to say that we're all well past that, and I think that one issue has been a minor part of the discussion anyway.

As far as the mood goes, what mood? There's some collective mood around here? The other day when Shani was ready to kill anyone who crossed her path, I was fine. There's no mention of impending doom that I've noticed. The only time I've ever been "moderated" was when I told a noob to basically look something up themselves, and I deserved it. Maybe I'm not reading the threads where all the personal attacks are going on, but even over in Politics things generally stay fairly civil (most of the time). Even over there, a gentle reminder to "relax" usually calms things down fairly quickly. So again, where's the problem? It seems more like real life to me than any pervasive problem with moderation or lack there of.

As far as any "edge" goes, I think a definition is in order or at least a description of the types of threads that someone feels are lacking.

Edit: for the record, my singling out of Shani was only the first example that came to mind. Normally she's quite nicer than I am.

Mood: There's two basic pervaders: 'Woe'-thinking no one cares what you say, so you don't bother to say anything. 'Apathy'-eh, I don't care to elaborate on that one.

Edge: the 'Media Mind Control' thread is a good example of 'edge'-thoughtful, thought provoking commentating on the effects of media and commercialization, using the latest media examples and news reports, critiquing, etc.
No edge: "My SO cheated"(generic).

Halx · 02-04-2007, 09:32 PM

I'm gonna state this officially and you guys can do with this however you feel.

I take majority responsibility for the TFP and I consider it to be "my" place. Just the same way I foot the bill when no donations come in, I take care of this place when nobody else does/can. What you might see is this thread, a few random posts, a journal entry here and there and a whole lot of hoopla about how I run this place, but what you don't see is me staying up till 6am, working on projects for the TFP. You also don't see me confronting in private each person who I've detected has a strong opinion about how the TFP is going. You don't see me negotiating with problematic members or conferring with my staff about issues that are relevant to the wellbeing of this forum. You don't see me scouring the net, looking for a way to increase traffic or add a new feature to this site.

The donors give their money to help keep the site running, and I listen when they have something to say, but they are not shareholders any more than a regular user is. They have a donor tag as a thanks from me and everyone else, not as a board-of-directors member insignia. Many donors, in fact, are users who rarely post. You probably wouldn't be able to tell me much about my top 5 donors if I told you their names. This alone should tell you that the TFP is more than just a social network.

I spend a lot of time trying to smooth out the social game being played here on the forums, but that's a courtesy I extend to you, my friends. The real battle is being fought in the intellectual forums and the advice forums. The content is what creates readers and participants. We need to focus on improving and expanding that. We lose members when there are no interesting topics to talk about, not when Member 28938 insults Member 94273. So, I'd like to get everyone's focus on the real matter. Whether you attribute your quality of experience here to me or not, I am the one fighting to keep it all here, where it belongs.

Are you going to join me in that fight or simply posture about how important your dollar and word is?

Menoman · 02-04-2007, 11:15 PM

I'm at work and not going to read this entire thread, too bad I didn't get here much sooner or I'd added my 2cents. If it matters, I've been off/on poster here since, shit... 2 wipes ago? 3 wipes ago? I don't even know at this point.

From the OP I did read most of, I have to disagree with SC on it being poor judgement of creating the other board. If the other board isn't using any of the TFP donations, it has nothign to do with TFP. It's nobodies business what Hal does with his time and effort, other than TFP. TFP of course is a different situation in which donations are made. I doubt this is even being debated here in page 3, but again I haven't read much of this yet.

2nd, i agree with Hal to make this site a bit grungier(sp). I've seen it, and called people on it, for thinking they've been here so long they are better than new people who may not understand how this place really works. Time to knock a few people down a peg or two.

To be honest, I kinda of agree with Hal on basically all the shit going on right now, which is odd, coz I have never particularly cared much for him. So I guess this isn't a "fanboi" post anyway.

pan6467 · 02-04-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I'm gonna state this officially and you guys can do with this however you feel.

I take majority responsibility for the TFP and I consider it to be "my" place. Just the same way I foot the bill when no donations come in, I take care of this place when nobody else does/can. What you might see is this thread, a few random posts, a journal entry here and there and a whole lot of hoopla about how I run this place, but what you don't see is me staying up till 6am, working on projects for the TFP. You also don't see me confronting in private each person who I've detected has a strong opinion about how the TFP is going. You don't see me negotiating with problematic members or conferring with my staff about issues that are relevant to the wellbeing of this forum. You don't see me scouring the net, looking for a way to increase traffic or add a new feature to this site.

The donors give their money to help keep the site running, and I listen when they have something to say, but they are not shareholders any more than a regular user is. They have a donor tag as a thanks from me and everyone else, not as a board-of-directors member insignia. Many donors, in fact, are users who rarely post. You probably wouldn't be able to tell me much about my top 5 donors if I told you their names. This alone should tell you that the TFP is more than just a social network.

I spend a lot of time trying to smooth out the social game being played here on the forums, but that's a courtesy I extend to you, my friends. The real battle is being fought in the intellectual forums and the advice forums. The content is what creates readers and participants. We need to focus on improving and expanding that. We lose members when there are no interesting topics to talk about, not when Member 28938 insults Member 94273. So, I'd like to get everyone's focus on the real matter. Whether you attribute your quality of experience here to me or not, I am the one fighting to keep it all here, where it belongs.

Are you going to join me in that fight or simply posture about how important your dollar and word is?

All I can say...... there was a time Hal was not here often, this place went downhill fast.

It's not a suck up to Hal, it's just the nature of the beast.

When someone creates something successful and they leave, it is hard to maintain that same success because noone has the passion the creator did. Plus, there is a certain extra oomph the creator's presence brings.

It's like Apple..... fell apart without Jobs. Microsoft without Gates isn't the same. Chrysler and Iococa, yeah he didn't "found it", but he pulled them out of bankruptcy and made them big again.... when he left, they fell. The examples can go on, those are the 3 biggest that come to mind.

It's easy to say Hal supplied the canvas and we all painted.... but the inspiration was derived from Hal....

Honest, I'm not kissing ass it's just how I see things.

Elphaba · 02-04-2007, 11:37 PM

Hal, you have an internet forum that appears to have seen better days and I can appreciate you interest in keeping tfp alive and interesting. I must say that your above proclamation appears to ignore some very relevant suggestions given recently by your members. Is this your 'mission' statement that was also suggested?

The hyperbole of your challenge "to join me in that fight or simply posture about how important your dollar and word is?" strikes me as something quite odd, if not insincere. I have followed the whole debacle of your "Social Experiment" and yet you insist that you are pleased with the outcome. You also claim to be pleased with the direction of the tfp topic regarding C:A. Your comments cause me to wonder what it is that you are striving to achieve for either forum.

Hal, I "fight" for worthy things and I believe you have done more damage to tfp than any of those that stood up to criticize you and your recent decisions. It's been fun, but I have no "fight" to offer you and your forums. That energy is far better expended elsewhere.

Pen

Halx · 02-05-2007, 12:19 AM

Elphaba, you're reading into things like there's something hidden beneath it all, but it's really all in front of you.

I didn't address many of the arguments because that post wasn't meant to do that. That post was simply to set the record straight on why I claim ownership to the forum. All of the suggestions have been read, a few have been responded to already, and a few are being considered. You will see a definite change in the goings-on of the TFP in the next week, a few changes will be in line with the suggestions you see in this thread. I've spent nearly 3 days trying to get this off the ground already, please don't expect me to respond to every post in this vast thread.

The challenge was sincere. The social experiment was unrelated to the TFP in its purpose. If you want to consider it a debacle, fine. I consider it an incidental catalyst for introspection and many positive changes to come. I was pleased at the reaction... not whether it was good or bad, but that people actually got INTO the conversation. It was quite engaging and interesting to disect. The purpose of the C:A forum can be found in my journal and the purpose of the TFP is the same as it has always been.

You better be prepared to explain how I've done harm. I've talked with many people involved and have come to an understanding. Many people who denounced C:A at first are now opening up to it. The drama it has caused has been resolved under my direction and people are now latching on to it's real purpose. You wouldn't know that though, sniping from the backline. I take full responsibility for the diminished quality of the forum during my 18 month absence, but we're never going to get anywhere moving forward if everyone is as quick to judge as you are.

I'll say it once again... it's all right in front of you in plain writing. No interpretation needed. However, welcome to the frontline and thanks for making your opinions known so I could address them personally.

Chimera · 02-05-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Are you going to join me in that fight or simply posture about how important your dollar and word is?

I, For One......will joint the fight.

He is absolutely correct in this, Members made this place.....and we can make it better now.

Sage · 02-05-2007, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal

We lose members when there are no interesting topics to talk about, not when Member 28938 insults Member 94273.

Exactly. Less noobish whining, more actually talking about stuff. I can handle having my toes stepped on or being insulted by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about- if someone is going to be an ass on the TFP, they're going to be ignored pretty quickly.

And OMG, I think people need to step down about how "important their donations are." This isn't a stock option- it's a lesiure site. I've donated in the past, and I really don't care what Hal does with the TFP (aside from keeping it on the internets, of course

) I don't feel a sense of "entitlement" as to the runnings of the place because I sent money- I sent money because, at the time, I had it and I realized that if TFP went offline I'd be sad. If you wanna keep TFP online, send money. If you don't care, don't send money. Vote with your wallet.

ngdawg · 02-05-2007, 08:30 AM

I feel it is Hal's 'place'-it's his baby. My donation is to help him out with TFP, not buy into anything.
I don't think his absence was total abandonment in the sense that he was 'finished'. Even the best artists put down their brushes for a while.
A while back it was discovered that someone was 'stealing' topics from elsewhere verbatim and posting them here, then going back to the original site of 'theft' and repeating TFP's members' responses there. It was convoluted and rather silly, but....the topics/postings stolen actually had some decent life. There are probably very few of us who don't go to other forums. I would never suggest doing what that person did, but look at the other places you visit-what things discussed get the most posts and the most thoughtful response? Has that subject ever been brought up here? Is it controversial without being a flaming exercise? Do you have a feeling about the topic that stirs you and might stir others?
Fear that no one will respond or that you will be seen in a different light is no reason to not contribute a subject. It's a forum, you won't die or break out in a skin-eating rash if your thoughts aren't met with total enthusiasm. But I don't think you can 'complain' about something not being 'exciting' and not at least attempt to insert a little excitement yourself.
/me scratches her arm....

pig · 02-05-2007, 12:22 PM

Hal,

First, in terms of any commentary of ownership/donations/etc. I've never really thought about "ownership" in terms of financial ownership, nor do I think its really a question. You pay the bills, you put in the organization to support the board - essentially, you run the place, it's your house. In terms of conceptual ownership, I think snowy sums up my basic feelings, and I doubt very seriously that you'd take any distinction with her point - developing a sense of community, and thus a certain feeling of communal ownership seems to be something you've been pushing since I've been on the boards.

In terms of direction, it seems to me that a useful question is whether a pure "discussion" board will ever be an entity which substantially drives up more traffic over a sustained period of time. I personally feel that if tfp is going to become a powerhouse, and if its not going to be a centrally themed board...the question I keep returning it is whether or not tfp can be a content-based resource board across a diverse set of genres, and whether tfp can compete with established boards that already serve this purpose. The function I see where tfp could be unique in this regards is the ability to facilitate cross-genre interaction and cross-germination of concepts and interactions. It seems to me that we have a diverse set of members, many of whom have specialization in their knowledge sets. Would it be possible to give members a certain amount of conceptual ownership over some subsets of the board, where they could post personalized content which might serve as a resource. For instance, I know that we've got fly, divagirl, quadro and many more who have specialized knowledge of music theory, recording equipment, musical instrumentation, and the like. What if they had a section, perhaps similar to the journals, but not really for "blogging" in the community - but where they could post tightly-controlled resources on instruments, home recording equipment and techniques, reviews, etc. Perhaps solicit content from experts in the field, etc - that would enable other members to record, play, learn etc. That type of content might appeal to others across the net, and serve to drive them to tfp. The same could be said for roach in philosophy/economics, maybe dc_dux in politics, etc. I don't know if we have members with a critical mass of knowledge and drive to make such a thing reality, but I just don't see how "drive up traffic" can be a primary goal. That seems secondary to me. The first goal seems to be a necessary "what role can tfp fill that would naturally drive up traffic." I simply don't see how tfp can function as it currently does, and at the same time drive up traffic. I think the current membership pretty much fits what tfp currently does, and has to come to this state naturally. I think in the hay-day of tfp, there was more creativity / content-generation - in terms of original photography, and in particular in terms of creative exhibitionism / member sharing / critique of content. I just don't see that happening as much these days.

Halx · 02-05-2007, 12:41 PM

pigglet, a sculptor does not start with a tiny stone that grows into a statue, he starts with a large block and whittles it down. That is the purpose of traffic in the "1% rule" that a previous poster commented on earlier. You need to cycle users through your system for it to appeal to them in the first place. Creating a specialized system for only a couple of users to interact in would be a waste of energy. I'm not saying your idea is bad.. I actually like it a lot. However I disagree on the order of events. I believe you must have traffic before you can expand. I roll my eyes when I visit a site with 50 forums and only a couple users.

I believe it all comes down to how much traffic you have.

World's King · 02-05-2007, 01:51 PM

Although guilty of it myself, I still don’t understand why people make the claim that the Internet is not real life. There is no better mirror as to what happens in real life than what happens on TFP. A community of people trying to figure out how to coincide with as little conflict as possible. Making laws. Creating some sort of law enforcement… You get the point. Pioneers. Which is a really lame thing to call us. But it’s true.

To me this place is real life. I’ve seen just as many boobs, assholes, fights, really hot women, morons, idiots, bad poetry, news about Paris Hilton, and whatever else you can think of here as I do in every other part of my life. T o me, the ones that say that things work differently here as they do ‘in real life’ are the ones that have created this alter-ego for themselves here. Which is why nothing works. As soon as you separate yourself into differently personalities for reaction to different places and people than you will start to fight within yourself. And that shows. I’m the same person here as I am with my friends, family, pets, strangers… everyone. It helps keep me grounded. I can’t justify acting different. Saying things I wouldn’t normally say. Being more mean… sad… happy… I’m just me.

So, if you’re unhappy with how this place has turned out you should no further than yourself. You helped build it. Some of us have been here for almost the entire time. I know I’ve been here way longer than I remember. I’ve made great friends and will continue to talk to them long after this place dies. I’ve fell in love, learned how to hate someone I’ve never met, considered flying to another country just to meet someone for the first time, had strangers stay at my house, gotten laid, shown most of the world my penis, and many other things in my time here. And I know that all of it has helped keep this place going. So if you wanna help keep this place going all you have to do is…

You know already. Just do it.

(And I'm talking to all of you here... )

abaya · 02-05-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

To me this place is real life. I’ve seen just as many boobs, assholes, fights, really hot women, morons, idiots, bad poetry, news about Paris Hilton, and whatever else you can think of here as I do in every other part of my life. T o me, the ones that say that things work differently here as they do ‘in real life’ are the ones that have created this alter-ego for themselves here. Which is why nothing works. As soon as you separate yourself into differently personalities for reaction to different places and people than you will start to fight within yourself. And that shows. I’m the same person here as I am with my friends, family, pets, strangers… everyone. It helps keep me grounded. I can’t justify acting different. Saying things I wouldn’t normally say. Being more mean… sad… happy… I’m just me.

King, just wanted to say that you are right on, man.

I agree with every word you said.

ARTelevision · 02-05-2007, 03:10 PM

The state of TFP is the sum total of every single one of us.
If we want change we need to change ourselves.

The "old days" were just the result of the people who populated the board.

Some of us are still here and you know what? It'still very very good here.
We have some fantastic members who contribute much of their lives, consciousness, and creativity - that makes it worthwhile...for me at least.

Wishing our best,
Art

uncle phil · 02-05-2007, 04:47 PM

as ART said, ""It's still very good here."

Sage · 02-05-2007, 05:11 PM

^^
Thirded

Just because there's some things that need to be ironed out, doesn't mean that the TFP needs to come to a standstill.

Chimera · 02-05-2007, 05:26 PM

Fourthded...ded

snowy · 02-05-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage

And OMG, I think people need to step down about how "important their donations are." This isn't a stock option- it's a lesiure site. I've donated in the past, and I really don't care what Hal does with the TFP (aside from keeping it on the internets, of course

) I don't feel a sense of "entitlement" as to the runnings of the place because I sent money- I sent money because, at the time, I had it and I realized that if TFP went offline I'd be sad. If you wanna keep TFP online, send money. If you don't care, don't send money. Vote with your wallet.

My donation is important, as far as I'm concerned. I'm poor. I can't afford to send as much as I'd like, and sometimes none at all, but I like to know my money is being used (which I'm sure it is) and used effectively. I guess one of the things I was getting at is that I would like to see more transparency with the donation process--meaning more accountability about where my donation goes. If it goes to buying Hal Mountain Dew so he can stay up all night and fix something when TFP goes haywire, that's fine. But I would like to know a little bit about how our money is spent (perhaps just the big picture, not the little tiny Mountain Dew oriented picture) because to me, sending money to the TFP IS an investment--an investment in keeping this place around.

Ourcrazymodern? · 02-05-2007, 05:49 PM

"joint the fight" was funny.

Why would a community fight with itself?
It takes a village to raise a child, I've heard.

Halx · 02-05-2007, 05:51 PM

What's so opaque about a monthly hosting bill?

snowy · 02-05-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

What's so opaque about a monthly hosting bill?

I suppose I would like to know how much the hosting bill is monthly (I'm sure this figure has been posted somewhere, but I haven't seen it lately), what percentage of that is paid by donors, any other costs incurred by the TFP, what the personal cost is to you each month, etc. Information like this might actually encourage people to donate more often.

Halx · 02-05-2007, 06:01 PM

You're not the trusting type, are you? I'm not a numbers machine, nor am I an accountant. All I have is a separate bank account that gets auto-deducted. When the balance reaches $0, I feel inclined to ask for donations. Why don't I just give you the login to my online banking account so you can keep track of the numbers for me.

pig · 02-05-2007, 06:07 PM

Wow Hal, that actually sounds a little defensive. I don't think the idea ever occurred to me, but I guess snowy has a point. Depending on whether you want the donations to be seen as a "donation to pay the bills" or a "voluntary fee to secure future access" I think she has reasonable positions.

MexicanOnABike · 02-05-2007, 06:11 PM

agreed....... dammit you ppl post fast! i take the time to read this and theres already 3-5 more posts.. i was agreeing that this was still a great place even if theres a little problem with a few members.

Halx · 02-05-2007, 06:13 PM

All over, reasonable. Justifiable, identifiable, worth considering, and genuine.

But it's not my thing. Maybe if I twisted arms to get donations, but I don't. If the site is in danger, I speak up, but otherwise I let donations come simply from the enjoyment my users get from the site. As it is, I'm not a very spectacular bookkeeper and I am quite put off by the busywork of putting up a report NOW when it hasn't mattered once before in the history of the site.

However since you begged.

This month's donat-o-meter:

$40/$300

What's that? 13.3%

We're almost there!

Elphaba · 02-05-2007, 06:15 PM

I am an excellent bookkeeper if you prefer that I contribute, rather than "snip from the sidelines."

Halx · 02-05-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I am an excellent bookkeeper if you prefer that I contribute, rather than "snip from the sidelines."

No, Elphaba, I'd prefer you cough up on the "harm" you claimed I've done. I'm really interested to know.

MexicanOnABike · 02-05-2007, 06:17 PM

also, about the donations: i don't think it should matter where the money went as long as the site is kept running. Like when i'll have spare money this summer, and i donate, i just need to know that the site will be there the next day.

Chimera · 02-05-2007, 06:19 PM

Imagine...if you will, a scenario:

You are caring for an elderly relative, trying to make her comfortable, cleaning the linens and making breakfast , lunch and dinner. Checking to be sure the Medications are there, and taken regularly. You take this responsibility seriously, primarily because you love this dying relative dearly, and want her to be happy and comfortable.

Now....please explain to me exactly what you did for her, in detail....every month. I need this information because I pay taxes to supprt her medicare benefits, and want accountability.

02-04-2007, 12:20 PM	#81 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	OK, I still don't get what's broken, despite NG's post. I can understand if this is a simple conversation about increasing the ranks, but I think it's fair to say that we're all well past that, and I think that one issue has been a minor part of the discussion anyway. As far as the mood goes, what mood? There's some collective mood around here? The other day when Shani was ready to kill anyone who crossed her path, I was fine. There's no mention of impending doom that I've noticed. The only time I've ever been "moderated" was when I told a noob to basically look something up themselves, and I deserved it. Maybe I'm not reading the threads where all the personal attacks are going on, but even over in Politics things generally stay fairly civil (most of the time). Even over there, a gentle reminder to "relax" usually calms things down fairly quickly. So again, where's the problem? It seems more like real life to me than any pervasive problem with moderation or lack there of. As far as any "edge" goes, I think a definition is in order or at least a description of the types of threads that someone feels are lacking. Edit: for the record, my singling out of Shani was only the first example that came to mind. Normally she's quite nicer than I am. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo Last edited by The_Jazz; 02-04-2007 at 12:42 PM..

02-04-2007, 12:37 PM	#82 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	(just for the record my mood had nothing at all to do with TFP lol....it was those other dreaded initials....PMS) __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

02-04-2007, 02:59 PM	#85 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I think its kinda funny how defensive your post was, EaseUp. Nobody ever got a warning by speaking their mind in a mature fashion. You communicated your point quite well. Thanks. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-04-2007, 03:07 PM	#86 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	Wow. Hal, you're doing a great job. I really like TFP, and I understand that it's going to evolve, and that the evolution is driven by the people who are on the board. Right now, everyone knows everyone, and honestly you can only talk about so many things with a group of people before it starts to get boring. If porn is going to bring new faces to TFP, then let it. We'll deal with the assholes as they come, and seperate the wheat from the chaff. That being said, if we DO actually get new people on the TFP, then there's going to have to be some wrist slapping among the people who've been on here forever. It IS a henhouse sometimes, and there when I felt I had to step away for a while it was because I honestly felt like since I wasn't a member of the clique of cool people that my posts didn't count. This is TFP, it's supposed to be a DISCUSSION board (kinda like a seminar in college, I feel). If you want to go somewhere to feel important and loved and in a clique, go play Second Life- it's free too. Part of what makes the internet fun and humorous is, well, humor. Being silly and stupid. Having people express their opnions and letting them say stuff they wanna say. We can totally make sure that threads don't deteriorate into a flame war, but for fuck's sake y'all, we're all adults. I don't want to feel like someone is going to start whining if I express an opnion that differs from theirs- and that's happened to me. I've totally posted trying to give someone advice and pointing out what I didn't like about previously posted advice, only to have my post be dissected because "ZOMG! YOU DIDN'T AGREE WITH ME!!" There's reasons why threads like this would have been met with "QQ" or "TLDR" or "L2P" in other forums- because this is the internet, not real life. I deal with snot nosed tattletale kids all day, cause it's my job. The last thing I want to have on a message board is snot nosed tattletale adults. I don't think TFP needs a "goverment" or a "court" to moderate posts- just four or five really good, level headed, dedicated mods and Halx to make sure things are going as HE wants them too. Because what it boils down to is that this is HIS board, HE created it, and honestly he can do whatever he damn well pleases with it IMO. __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi

02-04-2007, 03:10 PM	#87 (permalink)
Martel Insane Location: Sage's bed	No offense to anyone, but this is an internet forum, right? A place where people get together to talk about stuff? Why does an internet forum NEED politics or leaders or whatever? Why can't we all just get together and talk about stuff? It is always obvious when someone is being an ass, and they can be dealt with in appropriate ways. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I didn't even KNOW there was something "happening" with TFP until I read this thread. __________________ Anamnesis

02-04-2007, 02:48 PM	#84 (permalink)
EaseUp Upright Location: SoCal, beeyotch	My observations, including a little bit of searching: The basic premise was highly successful. What does the screen say, the record in 2004 was 1200 people on at once? It was apparently due to the porn connection, so the decision was made to eliminate the site's no. 1 draw. Now we wonder why there aren't more new members. I'm a member of several other forums, and frankly, they are now more entertaining. When I post here, I always wonder if what I say is going to get me a warning, or banned. There is evidence that others feel the same way, and it stifles lively debate. I pretty much have decided to speak my mind, and if I get banned, it's off to the other forums. While I'm on that subject, the guy who told me about TFP got banned. There was some crazy message about his IP, and he must be a duplicate account. We happen to live in one of the first totally wired communities, and I can only guess that was the cause. He was not broken-hearted; in fact, he didn't even bother to communicate the mistake. However, I now wonder if at some point I will be banned because of my IP. Or because I logged on using a friend's computer. On that subject, I will mention another reason the other forums are more fun--the lack of buttinski mods. There was one thread I saw yesterday along the lines of "ask an unemployed black man anything." And they DID. "How can you afford all your fried chicken now?" "Do you have 8 kids?" "How big is your dick?" And you know what? He just rolled with it, and no mods interfered. By the second page, even the obnoxious members were telling other obnoxious people to STFU when they made rude comments. Around here, warnings and bans would have flown. Unless it was a mod making the offensive statements. Or one of the mod favorites who have been described elsewhere. There was one jackass here who talked about killing cats, and anyone who told him he was a douche nozzle would have been banned. Having mods who want to be big shots by throwing their weight around is not the way to keep members. If a bar owner hired bouncers who wanted to fight every unruly patron, that bar would soon be out of business. I won't name the mods, but other people already have, if you care to research it. You wanted a straight answer? There it is. It will be awhile before I log back on, so now I can enjoy the suspense of whether or not I'm banned. Cheers.

02-04-2007, 09:32 PM	#93 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I'm gonna state this officially and you guys can do with this however you feel. I take majority responsibility for the TFP and I consider it to be "my" place. Just the same way I foot the bill when no donations come in, I take care of this place when nobody else does/can. What you might see is this thread, a few random posts, a journal entry here and there and a whole lot of hoopla about how I run this place, but what you don't see is me staying up till 6am, working on projects for the TFP. You also don't see me confronting in private each person who I've detected has a strong opinion about how the TFP is going. You don't see me negotiating with problematic members or conferring with my staff about issues that are relevant to the wellbeing of this forum. You don't see me scouring the net, looking for a way to increase traffic or add a new feature to this site. The donors give their money to help keep the site running, and I listen when they have something to say, but they are not shareholders any more than a regular user is. They have a donor tag as a thanks from me and everyone else, not as a board-of-directors member insignia. Many donors, in fact, are users who rarely post. You probably wouldn't be able to tell me much about my top 5 donors if I told you their names. This alone should tell you that the TFP is more than just a social network. I spend a lot of time trying to smooth out the social game being played here on the forums, but that's a courtesy I extend to you, my friends. The real battle is being fought in the intellectual forums and the advice forums. The content is what creates readers and participants. We need to focus on improving and expanding that. We lose members when there are no interesting topics to talk about, not when Member 28938 insults Member 94273. So, I'd like to get everyone's focus on the real matter. Whether you attribute your quality of experience here to me or not, I am the one fighting to keep it all here, where it belongs. Are you going to join me in that fight or simply posture about how important your dollar and word is? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-04-2007, 11:37 PM	#96 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Hal, you have an internet forum that appears to have seen better days and I can appreciate you interest in keeping tfp alive and interesting. I must say that your above proclamation appears to ignore some very relevant suggestions given recently by your members. Is this your 'mission' statement that was also suggested? The hyperbole of your challenge "to join me in that fight or simply posture about how important your dollar and word is?" strikes me as something quite odd, if not insincere. I have followed the whole debacle of your "Social Experiment" and yet you insist that you are pleased with the outcome. You also claim to be pleased with the direction of the tfp topic regarding C:A. Your comments cause me to wonder what it is that you are striving to achieve for either forum. Hal, I "fight" for worthy things and I believe you have done more damage to tfp than any of those that stood up to criticize you and your recent decisions. It's been fun, but I have no "fight" to offer you and your forums. That energy is far better expended elsewhere. Pen

02-05-2007, 12:19 AM	#97 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Elphaba, you're reading into things like there's something hidden beneath it all, but it's really all in front of you. I didn't address many of the arguments because that post wasn't meant to do that. That post was simply to set the record straight on why I claim ownership to the forum. All of the suggestions have been read, a few have been responded to already, and a few are being considered. You will see a definite change in the goings-on of the TFP in the next week, a few changes will be in line with the suggestions you see in this thread. I've spent nearly 3 days trying to get this off the ground already, please don't expect me to respond to every post in this vast thread. The challenge was sincere. The social experiment was unrelated to the TFP in its purpose. If you want to consider it a debacle, fine. I consider it an incidental catalyst for introspection and many positive changes to come. I was pleased at the reaction... not whether it was good or bad, but that people actually got INTO the conversation. It was quite engaging and interesting to disect. The purpose of the C:A forum can be found in my journal and the purpose of the TFP is the same as it has always been. You better be prepared to explain how I've done harm. I've talked with many people involved and have come to an understanding. Many people who denounced C:A at first are now opening up to it. The drama it has caused has been resolved under my direction and people are now latching on to it's real purpose. You wouldn't know that though, sniping from the backline. I take full responsibility for the diminished quality of the forum during my 18 month absence, but we're never going to get anywhere moving forward if everyone is as quick to judge as you are. I'll say it once again... it's all right in front of you in plain writing. No interpretation needed. However, welcome to the frontline and thanks for making your opinions known so I could address them personally. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 02-05-2007 at 01:07 AM..

02-05-2007, 08:30 AM	#100 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I feel it is Hal's 'place'-it's his baby. My donation is to help him out with TFP, not buy into anything. I don't think his absence was total abandonment in the sense that he was 'finished'. Even the best artists put down their brushes for a while. A while back it was discovered that someone was 'stealing' topics from elsewhere verbatim and posting them here, then going back to the original site of 'theft' and repeating TFP's members' responses there. It was convoluted and rather silly, but....the topics/postings stolen actually had some decent life. There are probably very few of us who don't go to other forums. I would never suggest doing what that person did, but look at the other places you visit-what things discussed get the most posts and the most thoughtful response? Has that subject ever been brought up here? Is it controversial without being a flaming exercise? Do you have a feeling about the topic that stirs you and might stir others? Fear that no one will respond or that you will be seen in a different light is no reason to not contribute a subject. It's a forum, you won't die or break out in a skin-eating rash if your thoughts aren't met with total enthusiasm. But I don't think you can 'complain' about something not being 'exciting' and not at least attempt to insert a little excitement yourself. /me scratches her arm.... __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

02-05-2007, 12:22 PM	#101 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Hal, First, in terms of any commentary of ownership/donations/etc. I've never really thought about "ownership" in terms of financial ownership, nor do I think its really a question. You pay the bills, you put in the organization to support the board - essentially, you run the place, it's your house. In terms of conceptual ownership, I think snowy sums up my basic feelings, and I doubt very seriously that you'd take any distinction with her point - developing a sense of community, and thus a certain feeling of communal ownership seems to be something you've been pushing since I've been on the boards. In terms of direction, it seems to me that a useful question is whether a pure "discussion" board will ever be an entity which substantially drives up more traffic over a sustained period of time. I personally feel that if tfp is going to become a powerhouse, and if its not going to be a centrally themed board...the question I keep returning it is whether or not tfp can be a content-based resource board across a diverse set of genres, and whether tfp can compete with established boards that already serve this purpose. The function I see where tfp could be unique in this regards is the ability to facilitate cross-genre interaction and cross-germination of concepts and interactions. It seems to me that we have a diverse set of members, many of whom have specialization in their knowledge sets. Would it be possible to give members a certain amount of conceptual ownership over some subsets of the board, where they could post personalized content which might serve as a resource. For instance, I know that we've got fly, divagirl, quadro and many more who have specialized knowledge of music theory, recording equipment, musical instrumentation, and the like. What if they had a section, perhaps similar to the journals, but not really for "blogging" in the community - but where they could post tightly-controlled resources on instruments, home recording equipment and techniques, reviews, etc. Perhaps solicit content from experts in the field, etc - that would enable other members to record, play, learn etc. That type of content might appeal to others across the net, and serve to drive them to tfp. The same could be said for roach in philosophy/economics, maybe dc_dux in politics, etc. I don't know if we have members with a critical mass of knowledge and drive to make such a thing reality, but I just don't see how "drive up traffic" can be a primary goal. That seems secondary to me. The first goal seems to be a necessary "what role can tfp fill that would naturally drive up traffic." I simply don't see how tfp can function as it currently does, and at the same time drive up traffic. I think the current membership pretty much fits what tfp currently does, and has to come to this state naturally. I think in the hay-day of tfp, there was more creativity / content-generation - in terms of original photography, and in particular in terms of creative exhibitionism / member sharing / critique of content. I just don't see that happening as much these days. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

02-05-2007, 12:41 PM	#102 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	pigglet, a sculptor does not start with a tiny stone that grows into a statue, he starts with a large block and whittles it down. That is the purpose of traffic in the "1% rule" that a previous poster commented on earlier. You need to cycle users through your system for it to appeal to them in the first place. Creating a specialized system for only a couple of users to interact in would be a waste of energy. I'm not saying your idea is bad.. I actually like it a lot. However I disagree on the order of events. I believe you must have traffic before you can expand. I roll my eyes when I visit a site with 50 forums and only a couple users. I believe it all comes down to how much traffic you have. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-05-2007, 01:51 PM	#103 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Although guilty of it myself, I still don’t understand why people make the claim that the Internet is not real life. There is no better mirror as to what happens in real life than what happens on TFP. A community of people trying to figure out how to coincide with as little conflict as possible. Making laws. Creating some sort of law enforcement… You get the point. Pioneers. Which is a really lame thing to call us. But it’s true. To me this place is real life. I’ve seen just as many boobs, assholes, fights, really hot women, morons, idiots, bad poetry, news about Paris Hilton, and whatever else you can think of here as I do in every other part of my life. T o me, the ones that say that things work differently here as they do ‘in real life’ are the ones that have created this alter-ego for themselves here. Which is why nothing works. As soon as you separate yourself into differently personalities for reaction to different places and people than you will start to fight within yourself. And that shows. I’m the same person here as I am with my friends, family, pets, strangers… everyone. It helps keep me grounded. I can’t justify acting different. Saying things I wouldn’t normally say. Being more mean… sad… happy… I’m just me. So, if you’re unhappy with how this place has turned out you should no further than yourself. You helped build it. Some of us have been here for almost the entire time. I know I’ve been here way longer than I remember. I’ve made great friends and will continue to talk to them long after this place dies. I’ve fell in love, learned how to hate someone I’ve never met, considered flying to another country just to meet someone for the first time, had strangers stay at my house, gotten laid, shown most of the world my penis, and many other things in my time here. And I know that all of it has helped keep this place going. So if you wanna help keep this place going all you have to do is… You know already. Just do it. (And I'm talking to all of you here... ) __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

02-05-2007, 03:10 PM	#105 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	The state of TFP is the sum total of every single one of us. If we want change we need to change ourselves. The "old days" were just the result of the people who populated the board. Some of us are still here and you know what? It'still very very good here. We have some fantastic members who contribute much of their lives, consciousness, and creativity - that makes it worthwhile...for me at least. Wishing our best, Art __________________ create evolution

02-05-2007, 04:47 PM	#106 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	as ART said, ""It's still very good here." __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

02-05-2007, 05:11 PM	#107 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	^^ Thirded Just because there's some things that need to be ironed out, doesn't mean that the TFP needs to come to a standstill. __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi

02-05-2007, 05:26 PM	#108 (permalink)
Chimera Banned	Fourthded...ded

02-05-2007, 05:49 PM	#110 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	"joint the fight" was funny. Why would a community fight with itself? It takes a village to raise a child, I've heard. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

02-05-2007, 05:51 PM	#111 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	What's so opaque about a monthly hosting bill? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-05-2007, 06:01 PM	#113 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	You're not the trusting type, are you? I'm not a numbers machine, nor am I an accountant. All I have is a separate bank account that gets auto-deducted. When the balance reaches $0, I feel inclined to ask for donations. Why don't I just give you the login to my online banking account so you can keep track of the numbers for me. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-05-2007, 06:07 PM	#114 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Wow Hal, that actually sounds a little defensive. I don't think the idea ever occurred to me, but I guess snowy has a point. Depending on whether you want the donations to be seen as a "donation to pay the bills" or a "voluntary fee to secure future access" I think she has reasonable positions. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

02-05-2007, 06:11 PM	#115 (permalink)
MexicanOnABike Location: up north	agreed....... dammit you ppl post fast! i take the time to read this and theres already 3-5 more posts.. i was agreeing that this was still a great place even if theres a little problem with a few members. __________________ - Movie Reviews - Ratings- Last edited by MexicanOnABike; 02-05-2007 at 06:15 PM..

02-05-2007, 06:13 PM	#116 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	All over, reasonable. Justifiable, identifiable, worth considering, and genuine. But it's not my thing. Maybe if I twisted arms to get donations, but I don't. If the site is in danger, I speak up, but otherwise I let donations come simply from the enjoyment my users get from the site. As it is, I'm not a very spectacular bookkeeper and I am quite put off by the busywork of putting up a report NOW when it hasn't mattered once before in the history of the site. However since you begged. This month's donat-o-meter: $40/$300 What's that? 13.3% We're almost there! __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 02-05-2007 at 06:16 PM..

02-05-2007, 06:15 PM	#117 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I am an excellent bookkeeper if you prefer that I contribute, rather than "snip from the sidelines."

02-05-2007, 06:17 PM	#119 (permalink)
MexicanOnABike Location: up north	also, about the donations: i don't think it should matter where the money went as long as the site is kept running. Like when i'll have spare money this summer, and i donate, i just need to know that the site will be there the next day. __________________ - Movie Reviews - Ratings-

02-05-2007, 06:19 PM	#120 (permalink)
Chimera Banned	Imagine...if you will, a scenario: You are caring for an elderly relative, trying to make her comfortable, cleaning the linens and making breakfast , lunch and dinner. Checking to be sure the Medications are there, and taken regularly. You take this responsibility seriously, primarily because you love this dying relative dearly, and want her to be happy and comfortable. Now....please explain to me exactly what you did for her, in detail....every month. I need this information because I pay taxes to supprt her medicare benefits, and want accountability.