Waiting for Goudeau... ? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

xepherys · 12-08-2006, 09:00 AM

For those of you not familiar with The Baseline Killer, read that URL for some background. He was suspected killer in the Tempe/Mesa suburbs of Phoenix over the last year or so suspected of multiple robberies, rapes and killings. Well, they finally found a person they think is behind it all in Mark Goudeau. Now they think he's responsible for as many as 71 OTHER crimes.

LINK

Quote:

Goudeau linked to 71 more 'Baseline' crimes

Judi Villa
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 8, 2006 12:00 AM

From the day Mark Goudeau was arrested and accused of a sexual assault linked to the "Baseline Killer," police say they had "a good idea" he was responsible for the entire string of murders, rapes and robberies that terrorized the city for 13 months.

Three months later, they are confident they have the right guy. Police on Thursday asked Maricopa County prosecutors to charge Goudeau, 42, with an additional 71 crimes, including nine murders, five sexual assaults and 12 armed robberies.

"We've locked in on the one suspect," Phoenix police Lt. Benny Piña said. "There isn't anybody else out there."
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The investigation into the Baseline Killer case was the largest ever in Phoenix history. If Goudeau is guilty, he is the city's most prolific serial killer.

Police say combined ballistics, DNA and circumstantial evidence point to Goudeau as the man who plucked random victims from public places after dark, often while wearing a disguise of dreadlocks and a fishing hat. Goudeau stalked areas he was familiar with, using them as a "hunting ground," police say.

"My wife paid the ultimate price for no reason at all," said Alvin Hogue, whose wife, Romelia Vargas, was killed along with her co-worker Mirna Palma-Roman in February. The two women were working in a lunch truck in west Phoenix when they were attacked.

"This doesn't bring my wife back. I miss her dearly," Hogue said after Thursday's announcement. "But they have the killer. The monster is off the street. It is an exciting day. The only day that would be better is if there was no monster and my wife was still here."

As for Goudeau, Hogue said, "whatever happens to him at this point is too good for him."

Police now are accusing Goudeau in 19 attacks, including a ninth murder that previously had not been linked to the Baseline Killer cases. That victim, Sophia Nuñez, was shot to death in her home on April 10. Nuñez's 8-year-old son found her body in the bathtub when he returned home from school. The boy tried to do mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, but Nuñez was already dead.

Nuñez's close friend Rose Valenzuela said Nuñez had met Goudeau at a video game arcade in Tempe. Still, Valenzuela said, it never crossed her mind that he would be accused of killing Nuñez.

"It really caught me as a surprise when I found out," Valenzuela said. "I'm still sick to my stomach. . . . She was such a good person. I can't imagine anyone wanting to hurt her. May he rot in hell."

Police remain tight-lipped about the evidence that links Goudeau to all the attacks. Cmdr. Joe Klima said authorities don't want to say too much before Goudeau is formally charged so they don't jeopardize the case. But, Klima said, "we're confident with the evidence we have."

"All of this evidence points directly to Mark Goudeau as the one who committed these crimes," he said.

Trying to link him to the attacks has been a painstaking process that has unfolded slowly in the months since he was arrested in the September 2005 sexual assaults of two sisters at a south Phoenix park. Goudeau has been indicted on 20 counts relating to that attack. He has pleaded not guilty, and his attorney, Corwin Townsend, is trying to get the case sent back to the grand jury for further review.

At a court hearing Thursday afternoon, Townsend also asked the judge to set bond for Goudeau "so that he can get on with his life."

When asked if Goudeau still professed innocence, Townsend said, "Absolutely."

Thursday's announcement by police comes after months of speculation about whether the suspect in the Baseline Killer cases was really in custody or if he might still be roaming the streets. Assistant Chief Tracy Montgomery said that even though formal charges are pending against Goudeau, police decided to go public to put the community at ease.

"There's tons of women that are making decisions about the way they live their lives because they're not sure," Montgomery said. "This is the guy. We have linked him with great confidence to these violent crimes."

Goudeau, a construction worker who was paroled from prison in March 2004 after serving 13 years for aggravated assault, armed robbery and kidnapping, lived near many of the attacks and had relatives who lived in the vicinity of others. Police say he trolled the areas he was familiar with looking for victims.

"It's my opinion there are two Mark Goudeaus," said Detective Alex Femenia, lead investigator. "One that's hardworking, articulate and charming, and another one that we suspect of being involved in these heinous crimes."

The nine murders all have been linked by ballistics, Piña said. Police have not found the murder weapon, but they say they have DNA evidence from some of those killings, and Sgt. Andy Hill said two searches of Goudeau's home were "productive."

Piña said it was about a month after Goudeau's arrest on Sept. 6 that officials received the first positive test results linking Goudeau to more crimes in the spree that began in August 2005. Those results spurred the second search warrant at Goudeau's home, where 150 items, including clothing and footwear, were recovered.

Police found "confirming evidence" in Goudeau's home, including items that supported the armed-robbery charges, Piña said.

It was during that search when detectives realized they had Goudeau, Piña said.

"It was a relief," Piña said.

Police still needed two more months to shore up the case by processing more evidence and working through tips.

"When you put the pieces of the puzzle together, it all points to him. It's all one person," Piña said. "We've done a lot to make sure we were right."

Police checked out more than 1,000 people and followed up on about 8,000 tips called in to Silent Witness before the evidence zeroed in on Goudeau, Piña said.

At the same time, police were looking for another serial predator who was randomly shooting people outside alone at night. In August, police arrested Dale Hausner and Samuel Dieteman in connection with the "Serial Shooter" cases that left seven dead and at least 18 wounded over 14 months.

Goudeau was arrested a month later.

On Thursday, Femenia said, detectives knew they were looking for a person who "was very good at what he did" and seemed to have some knowledge of forensics and police procedure.

"All that's on our mind is to get the person responsible before the next one," Femenia said.

"We knew we had a person out there who was going to commit another murder. The race was on."

Police have collected 1,500 pieces of evidence during the Baseline Killer investigation. Some scientific evidence still is being analyzed.

It is now up to prosecutors to review the investigation and either file charges directly or present the case to a grand jury.

"This man never again should be able to walk the streets of this Valley or anywhere else in freedom," Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas said. "This man needs to feel the hard steel of the law, and I believe he does today, and he will continue to."

When asked what she hoped would happen to Goudeau, Sophia Nuñez's mother, Maria, said, "I would like him to get life because I am going to go the rest of my life without my daughter, and I want him to spend the rest of his life without anything."

I wonder if these allegations are all true, and if so what implications this will have for him. I don't believe Arizona has a death penalty. If he's found guilty of the full group of charges, though, I'm not sure 50 consecutive life sentences (or whatever) is really justice. How do you feel about the death penalty? Is there ever an appropriate situation where it's the only true justice?

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 09:25 AM

No, I don't think so. I am categorically against the death penalty. It serves no purpose for society other than one of vengeance.

And the title of this thread is amusing.

xepherys · 12-08-2006, 09:57 AM

Hehe, thanks... I was pleased with the title myself.

At any rate, how can you say vengeance as opposed to justice? If he has taken lives, several of them, and done much harm to society, how is justice served by forcing tax payers to pay his upkeep, buy his food, his clothing, his cable TV, his books? Where is justice served by allowing this to occur?

CandleInTheDark · 12-08-2006, 10:17 AM

Justice and vengeance are not incompatible concepts. There is no good in keeping a serial killer and rapist alive.

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

Hehe, thanks... I was pleased with the title myself.

At any rate, how can you say vengeance as opposed to justice? If he has taken lives, several of them, and done much harm to society, how is justice served by forcing tax payers to pay his upkeep, buy his food, his clothing, his cable TV, his books? Where is justice served by allowing this to occur?

I suppose I don't think justice can be truly served, but that man is better off not taking life whenever it is possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark

Justice and vengeance are not incompatible concepts. There is no good in keeping a serial killer and rapist alive.

Can you explain the good in killing him?

snowy · 12-08-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

And the title of this thread is amusing.

It's a good one, though I was ready to correct whoever put it up here had it been about what I thought

TexanAvenger · 12-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Can you explain the good in killing him?

He'll never be able to commit another violent atrocity again.

I don't care about the economic, philosophical, or other arguments... this is the only argument for the death penalty that could sway me.

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanAvenger

He'll never be able to commit another violent atrocity again.

Neither can he if he is locked up for life. I don't see how this makes it good.

My point is that there is no good. There is no way of making things good or just. Goodness and justice are unreachable. I believe that man should default on the side of sparing life whenever possible.

<edit> Justice and goodness are unreachable in these situations, I mean.

xepherys · 12-08-2006, 11:16 AM

mixedmedia, inmates kill other inmates all the time. Letting the state do it would be more humane, in most cases. And even if complete justice is unattainable, why not strive to get as close as possible?

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

mixedmedia, inmates kill other inmates all the time. Letting the state do it would be more humane, in most cases.

I don't believe this is true in the case of death row inmates as they are usually cloistered. And just because criminals kill each other, I do not see that as a reason at all for the state to do it.

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And even if complete justice is unattainable, why not strive to get as close as possible?

I do not believe that killing in retribution takes us any closer to justice.

My views are pretty simple. Cut and dry. I've had similar conversations with people before...all the what ifs and had-a-beens and whatnot.

I've yet to hear an argument that nullifies the simple fact that we should not kill a person we have incarcerated and who is unable to do harm to someone. There is no rationalization for it other than it makes some in our society feel better. Like they've accomplished something. When, in fact, all they've done is add one more death to tragedy.

xepherys · 12-08-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

I've yet to hear an argument that nullifies the simple fact that we should not kill a person we have incarcerated and who is unable to do harm to someone. There is no rationalization for it other than it makes some in our society feel better. Like they've accomplished something. When, in fact, all they've done is add one more death to tragedy.

Because I don't care to pay for their upkeep. If anything, begin punished they should be contributing back to society. It doesn't "make me feel better", but it is a strain on society's resources to keep them alive. It's like punishing a kid by grounding him to his room where he has his computer and xbox and playstation. It's not really a punishment if you don't lose out on much. Yeah, they lose their freedom. You know what? I did too by enlisting in the military. As a prisoner, he gets as good of accomodations as I do. How is that right? *shrug* It's not about retribution in the sense of retliation, but in the sense of restoring the balance of justice to the karmic fabric of the world.

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 12:16 PM

The near insignificant burden that the upkeep of people on death row causes you is not, to me, a compelling reason for killing.

I think them contributing back to society is a fine idea.

A person in the military gets repreives, furloughs and breaks. A person in the military knows that their tenure will expire and they will walk away if they want to. I don't think you can equate that experience very meaningfully to being on death row. Nor should it be.

And I seem to remember a study done recently that concluded that it costs more to sentence someone to death and execute them than it does to incarcerate them for life. I don't have time to look for it right now, but I will when I get home.

Here's some stuff, I'm still looking for the study I found before, but it may be referred to here...of course, this is an anti-death penalty organization, but the data put forth pretty much speaks for itself.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7

Halx · 12-08-2006, 12:42 PM

I dont think of captial punishment as retribution. I see it as getting rid of refuse. I wish it was enacted more often and done with less care, then it would be more economical.

When you commit a serious crime, you forfeit your humanity.

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I dont think of captial punishment as retribution. I see it as getting rid of refuse. I wish it was enacted more often and done with less care, then it would be more economical.

When you commit a serious crime, you forfeit your humanity.

So you think it should be enacted more often and with less care even at the risk of executing the innocent?

Halx · 12-08-2006, 01:14 PM

The executing of innocent people is an argument against the legal system that got them convicted, not the death penalty. When you sentence someone to death, you find them guilty of several grim crimes. There are some who get life while committing the same kind of crimes. Whats the point of life in prison? In my opinion, thats less humane than just killing 'em.

mixedmedia · 12-08-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

The executing of innocent people is an argument against the legal system that got them convicted, not the death penalty. When you sentence someone to death, you find them guilty of several grim crimes. There are some who get life while committing the same kind of crimes. Whats the point of life in prison? In my opinion, thats less humane than just killing 'em.

Well, I say that because I assume by enacting it with less care you are referring to the lengthy and expensive appeals process accorded to those who have received the death penalty. Maybe I made a leap.

And my concern in this matter is not really the issue of what is humane for the murderer. It is that, to me, it seems disturbingly irrational for us as a society to methodically kill unarmed, incarcerated human beings.

xepherys · 12-08-2006, 03:45 PM

When a dog visciously attacks someone, they are put down. Why is it different with a person? We are just animals, too. Also, methodically killing unarmed, incarcerated humans? Okay, how about we go for a little Running Man action? Then they can turn a profit, and create entertainment. Plus, if they get whacked, they probably weren't fully unarmed.

I just don't see the sense in keeping refuse around to rot, even if said refuse happend to be made of the same carbon I am.

flstf · 12-09-2006, 07:37 AM

I would like to see all killers put to death. The problem is in our legal system I believe many are convicted for crimes they did not commit. The chances of being wrongly convicted probably decrease greatly for those able to afford a good defense and visa versa.

Seaver · 12-09-2006, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Neither can he if he is locked up for life. I don't see how this makes it good.

Tell that to guards who are constantly under threat of attack from inmates who are in on consecutive life sentences. If there is nothing they fear that makes them dangerous to everyone around them as long as they live.

Quote:

it seems disturbingly irrational for us as a society to methodically kill unarmed, incarcerated human beings.

Talk to prison guards. They will tell you that inmates are rarely completely unarmed. No matter how much security you put in a prison the prisoners will ALWAYS endanger the guards. They ALWAYS have the opportunity to kill again and they almost always try, for the rest of their lives.

mixedmedia · 12-09-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

When a dog visciously attacks someone, they are put down. Why is it different with a person? We are just animals, too. Also, methodically killing unarmed, incarcerated humans? Okay, how about we go for a little Running Man action? Then they can turn a profit, and create entertainment. Plus, if they get whacked, they probably weren't fully unarmed.

I just don't see the sense in keeping refuse around to rot, even if said refuse happend to be made of the same carbon I am.

A dog doesn't have to kill someone to be put down. Should we "put down" those who have attacked people without killing them just in case they manage to kill someone the next time? Or do we view human life with a higher regard? I think its obvious we do, or at least the mythology of our "civilization" says that we do.

As for the Running Man thing. I realize you're joking, but maybe you also know that the story, as originally written, is a social commentary meant to expose the growing indifference we have as a society, much like psychopathic killers, to dehumanize the lives that we view as expendable.

We just have intractably different views on this subject, I guess. But I hope you can agree that all the justice, financial waste, humane or not humane arguments most often put forth by those who favor the death penalty are spurious rationalizations for a reality they have trouble admitting to. That they just want to take out the garbage. With the exception of Halx and now yourself, of course.

Truthfully, I have much more tolerance and respect for those who are willing to be brutally honest about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Tell that to guards who are constantly under threat of attack from inmates who are in on consecutive life sentences. If there is nothing they fear that makes them dangerous to everyone around them as long as they live.

Talk to prison guards. They will tell you that inmates are rarely completely unarmed. No matter how much security you put in a prison the prisoners will ALWAYS endanger the guards. They ALWAYS have the opportunity to kill again and they almost always try, for the rest of their lives.

Is someone forcing them to be prison guards? If every prisoner serving a life term for murder was trying to kill prison guards, there would be no prison guards. Are you now proposing that we kill every person in prison on capital murder charges, whether they would ever attempt to take another life or not, just in case they try to kill a prison guard? Again this is a rationalization that does not support the death penalty, nor does it address my argument.

Seaver · 12-09-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Is someone forcing them to be prison guards? If every prisoner serving a life term for murder was trying to kill prison guards, there would be no prison guards. Are you now proposing that we kill every person in prison on capital murder charges, whether they would ever attempt to take another life or not, just in case they try to kill a prison guard? Again this is a rationalization that does not support the death penalty, nor does it address my argument.

Actually, I believe it does support the death penalty. Your argument is about the humanity of the convicted. It is not about the wrongly convicted, as that is a completely separate argument about civil legal system.

My argument is that these killers knowingly gave up their right to humanity by killing innocent people. These killers are no longer innocent of taking another person's life, the majority of their rights as citizens was knowingly forfitted. The fact that the state is employed to end their life is not a contradiction in morality, as I believe that for the greater good murderers should be executed.

You attempt to divide justice and vengence. This is a misguided argument because justice is simply an institutionalized repayment in some manner. For more petty crimes fines or jail time is sought, one pays money or his freedoms for an amount of time to make ammends to the society. The greater good is not served when we put someone away for life, it is more cruel to the prisoner (in my opinion), and it creates a much more dangerous atmosphere for those who have not committed such violent crimes.

Your argument about forced prison guards is not valid either. There are much higher penalties for killing a police officer on duty than an average citizen. Are they forced to be Police Officers? Are their lives worth more than the average persons? No, it is because they volunteer to do a dangerous job that is needed. But according to your argument is that no guards are ever killed on duty because no one then would be a prison guard.

And no, your attempt to diffuse the argument by asking if we seek every murderer the death penalty does not work. By extending far beyond the argument into realms never even stipulated it does not lend itself to being a diffusion. An equivilant would be to say that since you do not believe that capital punishment is moral, do you suggest we let every prisoner out of prison?

The argument that I put forward is capital punishment is valid because of the greater good. Prisoners on capital crimes create only sorrow, havoc, and fear. While in prison they still only provide these, as life sentences provide them an opportunity to justify that they can not be punished in any other way and therefore are effectively immune from punishment. The danger they do to hard working individuals, and the pain they could cause by injuring or killing a prison guard is not worth the risk in my opinion.

Of course you will try to misconstrue my argument to say that everyone who does not give good to a society should be executed, that is not what I'm saying to do not even go down that route. You say our arguments do not address or defeat your argument, though conveniently yours completely defeats ours. Do you not think that this may be because you have an opinion which you would rather not change because of your beliefs about those who do support capital punishment?

mixedmedia · 12-09-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Actually, I believe it does support the death penalty. Your argument is about the humanity of the convicted. It is not about the wrongly convicted, as that is a completely separate argument about civil legal system.

Actually, no, my argument is more about the humanity of the rest of us. The only reason I brought up the wrongly convicted was in reference to Halx's post. I agree it is a totally separate argument and largely irrelevant in the context of current jurisprudence as the technology that has exonerated those on death row who were convicted in the past is standard procedure in the capital cases of today.

Quote:

My argument is that these killers knowingly gave up their right to humanity by killing innocent people. These killers are no longer innocent of taking another person's life, the majority of their rights as citizens was knowingly forfitted. The fact that the state is employed to end their life is not a contradiction in morality, as I believe that for the greater good murderers should be executed.

Well, fine, as long as you realize that, like mine, this is only an opinion on their right to life. We just default to different ends of the spectrum.

Quote:

You attempt to divide justice and vengence. This is a misguided argument because justice is simply an institutionalized repayment in some manner. For more petty crimes fines or jail time is sought, one pays money or his freedoms for an amount of time to make ammends to the society. The greater good is not served when we put someone away for life, it is more cruel to the prisoner (in my opinion), and it creates a much more dangerous atmosphere for those who have not committed such violent crimes.

Please, if you care to, explain to me how the greater good is served by ending their life. And you are supposing that everyone in prison for murder is necessarily more dangerous than those who are in prison for say, armed robbery or dealing drugs? Is your idea of the greater good simply protecting prison guards from people who may or may not try to do them harm?

Quote:

Your argument about forced prison guards is not valid either. There are much higher penalties for killing a police officer on duty than an average citizen. Are they forced to be Police Officers? Are their lives worth more than the average persons? No, it is because they volunteer to do a dangerous job that is needed. But according to your argument is that no guards are ever killed on duty because no one then would be a prison guard.

I'm having trouble understanding this but I can tell you misunderstood what I wrote. What I meant to say was that, if every person serving a life sentence for a capital murder conviction wanted to kill the guards at their prison, there would literally, be no prison guards left alive. The number of these people populating our prisons is far greater than the number of guards. We are the murder capital of the world, after all. And I could digress here into my thoughts about our culpability as a society for this prevalence of people willing to kill but I'll spare ya'll.

Quote:

And no, your attempt to diffuse the argument by asking if we seek every murderer the death penalty does not work. By extending far beyond the argument into realms never even stipulated it does not lend itself to being a diffusion. An equivilant would be to say that since you do not believe that capital punishment is moral, do you suggest we let every prisoner out of prison?

Again, I'm having trouble understanding this. I referred directly to those convicted of capital murder charges - those which carry sentences of life imprisonment or death. I did not infer that you thought anyone convicted of any murder charge should be put to death.

Quote:

The argument that I put forward is capital punishment is valid because of the greater good. Prisoners on capital crimes create only sorrow, havoc, and fear. While in prison they still only provide these, as life sentences provide them an opportunity to justify that they can not be punished in any other way and therefore are effectively immune from punishment. The danger they do to hard working individuals, and the pain they could cause by injuring or killing a prison guard is not worth the risk in my opinion.

If we knew that everyone, or for the sake of argument even most of them, posed a direct threat to prison guards I would at least be able to see some basis in this argument, but we don't. And in fact, and prove me wrong if you can, I don't think there is any evidence to prove that prison guards are more at risk in other countries, or even our own states, that do not practice the death penalty than in those that do.

Quote:

Of course you will try to misconstrue my argument to say that everyone who does not give good to a society should be executed, that is not what I'm saying to do not even go down that route. You say our arguments do not address or defeat your argument, though conveniently yours completely defeats ours. Do you not think that this may be because you have an opinion which you would rather not change because of your beliefs about those who do support capital punishment?

Wow, do you really dislike me that much? Is that the way I seem to you? That is so totally unlike something I would say. Yeah, let's not go down that route. It's your fantasy not mine.

No, your arguments do not defeat my theory that killing people we have under state control is an ethically questionable practice for us to be engaging in. But really, why must there be a defeat of some kind? I conceded with xepherys that we just have different opinions on the subject. And his (?) final argument ultimately is the only one that really addresses the implications of my doubt about it. That being that there are no implications. They should be killed because their lives are worthless.

12-08-2006, 09:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	No, I don't think so. I am categorically against the death penalty. It serves no purpose for society other than one of vengeance. And the title of this thread is amusing. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

12-08-2006, 09:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Hehe, thanks... I was pleased with the title myself. At any rate, how can you say vengeance as opposed to justice? If he has taken lives, several of them, and done much harm to society, how is justice served by forcing tax payers to pay his upkeep, buy his food, his clothing, his cable TV, his books? Where is justice served by allowing this to occur? __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

12-08-2006, 10:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
CandleInTheDark Addict Location: Where the music's loudest	Justice and vengeance are not incompatible concepts. There is no good in keeping a serial killer and rapist alive. __________________ Where there is doubt there is freedom.

12-08-2006, 11:16 AM	#9 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	mixedmedia, inmates kill other inmates all the time. Letting the state do it would be more humane, in most cases. And even if complete justice is unattainable, why not strive to get as close as possible? __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

12-08-2006, 12:16 PM	#12 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	The near insignificant burden that the upkeep of people on death row causes you is not, to me, a compelling reason for killing. I think them contributing back to society is a fine idea. A person in the military gets repreives, furloughs and breaks. A person in the military knows that their tenure will expire and they will walk away if they want to. I don't think you can equate that experience very meaningfully to being on death row. Nor should it be. And I seem to remember a study done recently that concluded that it costs more to sentence someone to death and execute them than it does to incarcerate them for life. I don't have time to look for it right now, but I will when I get home. Here's some stuff, I'm still looking for the study I found before, but it may be referred to here...of course, this is an anti-death penalty organization, but the data put forth pretty much speaks for itself. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7 __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce Last edited by mixedmedia; 12-08-2006 at 12:36 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

12-08-2006, 12:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I dont think of captial punishment as retribution. I see it as getting rid of refuse. I wish it was enacted more often and done with less care, then it would be more economical. When you commit a serious crime, you forfeit your humanity. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

12-08-2006, 01:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	The executing of innocent people is an argument against the legal system that got them convicted, not the death penalty. When you sentence someone to death, you find them guilty of several grim crimes. There are some who get life while committing the same kind of crimes. Whats the point of life in prison? In my opinion, thats less humane than just killing 'em. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

12-08-2006, 03:45 PM	#17 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	When a dog visciously attacks someone, they are put down. Why is it different with a person? We are just animals, too. Also, methodically killing unarmed, incarcerated humans? Okay, how about we go for a little Running Man action? Then they can turn a profit, and create entertainment. Plus, if they get whacked, they probably weren't fully unarmed. I just don't see the sense in keeping refuse around to rot, even if said refuse happend to be made of the same carbon I am. __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage

12-09-2006, 07:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I would like to see all killers put to death. The problem is in our legal system I believe many are convicted for crimes they did not commit. The chances of being wrongly convicted probably decrease greatly for those able to afford a good defense and visa versa.