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Old 11-01-2006, 01:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Lawful Gun Action

Here is a good case of a lawful gun put to good use:

Quote:
Deliveryman wounds robber in shootout

By JEFFREY S. SOLOCHEK, Times Staff Writer
Published October 27, 2006

TEMPLE TERRACE - A quick-acting deliveryman with a gun thwarted an armed robbery at his restaurant job Wednesday night, scaring off one person and shooting another.

The wounded man, Robert S. Lee, 25, of 8402 Del Rey Court, ended up in intensive care at Tampa General Hospital. Police charged Lee, who has a lengthy criminal history, with attempted murder, armed robbery and possessing a firearm with an altered serial number.

His unidentified accomplice remained on the loose Thursday.

That's why Temple Terrace police wouldn't give out the deliveryman's name, and neither would Panda Express on 56th Avenue N at East Riverhills Drive. Workers there Thursday declined to comment.

A police spokesman did, however, describe an evening shootout that made the usually quiet restaurant by the Hillsborough River sound like the Old West.

Spokesman Michael Dunn said two gunmen pulled into the standalone restaurant's parking lot about 10 p.m. One of them saw a restaurant employee outside and grabbed that person, holding them at gunpoint to make sure the people inside got no warning.

The second man, Lee, strode inside brandishing his gun and announced the robbery.

Moments later, the deliveryman returned from a dropoff and saw guns pointed at people he knew. So he grabbed his own gun, jumped out of his car and started shooting.

First, he shot at the outdoor robber, missing but sending him running. Next, he headed inside and aimed at Lee. After a few words, Dunn said, the deliveryman and Lee shot at one another.

Lee missed. The deliveryman didn't. Lee took a bullet "below the waist" and was in serious condition at the hospital.

Police have not charged the deliveryman with a crime for his involvement in the shootout. They did, however, issue their standard antivigilante message.

"We always tell people, Don't take the law into your own hands," Dunn said. "But this situation occurs spontaneously."
Based on the information gleaned from the article, I am happy the deliveryman was not charged with a crime but I am a bit concerned that they construed this as vigilante justice. This seems more like self-defense to me. In any event, to me at least, this illustrates the constraints placed on lawful gun-ownership versus the unlawful variety. The criminal in this case, had a history of violence and crime and a "unlawful" gun. I get the impression that no amount of gun laws would have kept a gun out of this criminal's hands.

For me, it is nice to see that law-abiding citizens were able to defend themselves. I just hope the police don't harass them too much.
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Old 11-01-2006, 02:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm glad to see that someone posessing a gun lawfully had the wit and calm to use his weapon in the right place and time. If offenders were aware of more people who are capable of this sort of defense then perhaps we'll see a little less crime of this sort.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Oh, I will, I will. I'll support illegalizing guns when they find out how to get them off the street after their illegal, and how to keep them from being imported, and how to prove our military won't be used against us should it come neccesary to overthrow.

When gun's are made illegal things will get alot worse before they get better at all, and even then, I imagine it'd take a world wide effort, not a nationwide. Especially not a nationwide that isn't an island.

Imagine is simply that. Imagining. It is an intellectual excercise, the cat is out of the bag, and there will be blood before it can be put back in. You willing for it to be your blood? Oh, and the perfect circle cover is my favorite, rather than the original.
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Old 11-02-2006, 03:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I like guns, I think everyone should have several. It is my opinion that if everybody had a gun with them at all times there would be less criminal use of guns. I mean really, A guy isn't going to pull a gun to rob a store if he knows everyone else there has one too. The same goes for other crime too, car jacking? if the driver has a gun too, along with everyone else on the street....







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Old 11-02-2006, 06:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
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There is no such thing as an illegal gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottstall
Oh, I will, I will. I'll support illegalizing guns when they find out how to get them off the street after their illegal, and how to keep them from being imported, and how to prove our military won't be used against us should it come neccesary to overthrow.

When gun's are made illegal things will get alot worse before they get better at all, and even then, I imagine it'd take a world wide effort, not a nationwide. Especially not a nationwide that isn't an island.
The military has been used against civilians in the past, i'm sure they will be again. we are doomed to repeat history because people refuse to learn from it.
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Last edited by dksuddeth; 11-02-2006 at 06:39 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:09 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
There is no such thing as an illegal gun.



The military has been used against civilians in the past, i'm sure they will be again. we are doomed to repeat history because people refuse to learn from it.
The sad part is that it was only a few centuries ago that the military was used against us... you know, revolutionary war, and there were damn good reasons for good ole number two. Philosophies that were discussed in its making that predate guns. Example after example of the need to protect oneself, and ones own.

And for those pro-gun law folks, did you know that the "militia" that constitutes part of that amendment, by definition, can have no government influence. In fact, that militia is charged protecting us from any hostile government, including our own, on our turf, by that same amendment.

Betcha the people of germany in the 30's and 40's wished the Nazi's hadnt banned all their guns....

Back to the OP, I love hearing stories like this. The NRA's publication National Rifleman runs a column where these type of stories are printed pretty much every month. Happens more often than most people think.
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Old 11-02-2006, 08:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Just as an aside; simply because charges weren't filed does not mean he acted legally. In fact, I'd wager that had they been filed they would've stuck. All the more so if the shot robber dies.
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Old 11-02-2006, 08:07 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuadDib
Just as an aside; simply because charges weren't filed does not mean he acted legally. In fact, I'd wager that had they been filed they would've stuck. All the more so if the shot robber dies.
And that right there, is the flaw in our legal system. Our criminals have too many rights.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:06 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuadDib
Just as an aside; simply because charges weren't filed does not mean he acted legally. In fact, I'd wager that had they been filed they would've stuck. All the more so if the shot robber dies.
This is what intrigues me. Presumably (we don't have ALL the facts) he acted lawfully, that is in self-defense right? If so, why should he be the one in trouble? It just seems odd to me that we would protect the criminal and punish the victims.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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His entering the restaurant with his gun, if he knew the other guy was inside, is not self defense. He went looking for the accomplice. At least that's the way the law has previously looked at actions such as this. He could have left, and found somewhere safe to call the police. Shooting at the first guy was self defense.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:48 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krwlz
And that right there, is the flaw in our legal system. Our criminals have too many rights.
Wow, I don't want to morph this thread into a criminal rights thread so I'll just say I completely disagree with our system being flawed because of criminal rights. However, I don't think either of our assumptions about that issue necessarily need to influence a discussion about this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
This is what intrigues me. Presumably (we don't have ALL the facts) he acted lawfully, that is in self-defense right? If so, why should he be the one in trouble? It just seems odd to me that we would protect the criminal and punish the victims.
We are talking about two acts here. The second act, his gunfight with Lee, is likely legal, though there is some question about self-defense since he chose to get involved, but in most states it would fly. The first act, him firing at the outside gunman, is legally questionable. That act was clearly not self-defense because he was personally in no danger either before he chose to involve himself or when he shot at the criminal. As you said, we don't have all the facts, but that situation could be problematic for the delivery guy because he essentially assaulted that robber. In most cases, that is alright to a level of necessity and it very well might have been necessary in this case. But the question then is if it was necessary for their protection or if his actions actually heightened the danger through armed conflict and made it more likely innocent people would be harmed. Luckily it didn't turn out that way, but that is part of the inherent problem with vigilantist behavior. If he had not been their the robbers would've gotten their cash and escaped leading to a police investigation that may or may not have apprehended them, still no one is harmed or dies. However, what if the outside criminal didn't run at the shot, he did after all have a guy essentially shielding him, but returned fire or moved his victim into the delivery guy's path? What if he missed Lee and/or Lee didn't miss? These events would have led to at least the deliverers injury and would have made it much more likely more innocents could be harmed. He would at least have been somewhat liable for that. Again, luckily that did not happen and everything worked out well. Nonetheless there are good reasons that this sort of vigilante action frowned upon and often illegal.
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Old 11-02-2006, 11:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Could he be construed as protecting or defending his friends/co workers though? In other words, what is the burden of self-defense? Is it only ok to defend yourself? Can you defend others? In the article, it says he say guns pinted at his friends/coworkers. Is gunpointing enough of a hostile or endangering/threatening act?

For example, if a robber is holding your family at gunpoint and you come home, then I would think you are well within your rights to take action (with a gun).

Was it vigilantist behavior or was it justified self-defense? It's this grey area that is problematic (at least for me).

Considering that people get off for shooting trick-or-treaters* under the guise of "trespassing", then I would think an actual self-defense case like this one would not give the guy a hard time.

*There was a case of some kids (foreign exchange students) that went trick-or-treating (on Halloween) in Louisiana and were shot by some homeowner who claimed they were trespassing (there was no sign or fence, they just walked up to his front door). One of the kids died and the guy got off scot-free. If this is ok, then the robbery case should definitely be ok.
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Old 11-02-2006, 11:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Self defense is ONLY defending your own life from imminent danger. However, there are other defenses for retaliation to protect others. Different states treat this sort of thing differently, but that really doesn't matter here. This is just a symantical issue about the legal term self defense.

The real issue here is if, regardless of the outcome, he actually reduced the danger to the employees/customers by his actions or if he actually made the situation worse for them but it worked out.
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Based on reaction and outcome there is only one word anyone should be using to describe this guy.

Hero

He went out of his way, and put himself in danger to save others, and he did so competently. At worst you can go with the 'what if' whines, but there are no what ifs, the guy is a hero, no doubt about it.

So here is to you armed dilvery guy, I'll drink it in your honor tonight.

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Old 11-02-2006, 12:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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no orange slice?
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
no orange slice?
Hey I took the first one I could find
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Last edited by Ustwo; 11-02-2006 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 11-02-2006, 03:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Based on reaction and outcome there is only one word anyone should be using to describe this guy.

Hero

He went out of his way, and put himself in danger to save others, and he did so competently. At worst you can go with the 'what if' whines, but there are no what ifs, the guy is a hero, no doubt about it.
Yes, what he did was heroic and he was lucky nobody else got hurt. Because nobody else was hurt, the 'what ifs' don't matter. It would be an entirely different situation if the first guy had returned fire and then the guy inside started blasting people but that didn't happen so forget about it.

It should be clear that you are allowed to defend yourself and others if possible. However, you should be held responsible for the outcome, good or bad. If you fire 10 rounds and one hits a bystander, you should be charged with negligent homicide.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Based on reaction and outcome there is only one word anyone should be using to describe this guy.

Hero

He went out of his way, and put himself in danger to save others, and he did so competently. At worst you can go with the 'what if' whines, but there are no what ifs, the guy is a hero, no doubt about it.

So here is to you armed dilvery guy, I'll drink it in your honor tonight.

Amen to that
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
It should be clear that you are allowed to defend yourself and others if possible. However, you should be held responsible for the outcome, good or bad. If you fire 10 rounds and one hits a bystander, you should be charged with negligent homicide.
I totally agree with this. If by chance the delivery man had hit someone other than the robbers he should be held accountable.

On the flip side if he had headshotted the robber outside and then waited for his buddy to come out and killed him too, he should be a citywide hero and given a medal. I drink with Ustwo. Or I would, if I liked beer, but I think I'll bring my rum instead. ^_^
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Old 11-02-2006, 11:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorjelito
*There was a case of some kids (foreign exchange students) that went trick-or-treating (on Halloween) in Louisiana and were shot by some homeowner who claimed they were trespassing (there was no sign or fence, they just walked up to his front door). One of the kids died and the guy got off scot-free. If this is ok, then the robbery case should definitely be ok.
The case you're writing about is that of Yoshihiro Hattori, who was shot by Rodney Pears (sp?) in the early 1990's. Yoshi was an exchange student and new to the US, and didn't speak very much English. He and a friend went out on Halloween looking for a party, and when they got lost, went to a house to ask for directions. Mr. Pears saw the two walking up to his house and called out for them to "Freeze", but Yoshi didn't understand that word, so he was shot.

Here is the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori

Mr. Pears was arrested and brought up on charges, but was exonerated. It caused a great uproar in Japan, and I had to answer numerous questions, as I lived there at the time.
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Old 11-02-2006, 11:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intense1
The case you're writing about is that of Yoshihiro Hattori, who was shot by Rodney Pears (sp?) in the early 1990's. Yoshi was an exchange student and new to the US, and didn't speak very much English. He and a friend went out on Halloween looking for a party, and when they got lost, went to a house to ask for directions. Mr. Pears saw the two walking up to his house and called out for them to "Freeze", but Yoshi didn't understand that word, so he was shot.

Here is the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori

Mr. Pears was arrested and brought up on charges, but was exonerated. It caused a great uproar in Japan, and I had to answer numerous questions, as I lived there at the time.
Thanks for the link, it was very informative. Wow, I am pretty speechless. I don't want to threadjack but, that case, I really don't get. It's completely different than the aforementioned robbery. Those guys had guns.

I appreciate your link but what is your opinion (about either case)? What questions did you have to answer?
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:32 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorjelito
Thanks for the link, it was very informative. Wow, I am pretty speechless. I don't want to threadjack but, that case, I really don't get. It's completely different than the aforementioned robbery. Those guys had guns.

I appreciate your link but what is your opinion (about either case)? What questions did you have to answer?
First, let me say I believe that regarding the OP, the delivery man was absolutely right to take the steps he did. I'm not sure what state he was in, but if he was in Tennesse (where I'm at), he could have had a carry permit, and would have been completely justified by law in what he did. My brother in law has a carry permit, and it saved his and my sister's lives once. He didn't have to shoot, but he did scare a silly a-hole into backing down from further beating up his own girlfriend in my brother-in-law's and my sister's presence. This guy was nuts and was out of control - who knows what he would have done if not for the appearance of my b-i-l's Sig...

As far as the questions I had to answer in Japan - they were the basic ones; how can a normal citizen have a gun like this? Why would they shoot someone just coming up to their house? In Japan, firearms are regulated, and only hunting guns are sold and must be registered. Crime rates are low there, and it is difficult for them to conceive that someone coming up to their door would be dangerous. Ususally, they're safe in their homes.

But they don't live in a place like New Orleans or LA, where such gang activity exists. They can't comprehend it, so it's hard for them to see why someone would feel unsafe seeing an Elvis impersonator coming to the door on Halloween.

It was hard to explain and I don't know if I did a very good job of it.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:25 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Based on reaction and outcome there is only one word anyone should be using to describe this guy.

Hero

He went out of his way, and put himself in danger to save others, and he did so competently. At worst you can go with the 'what if' whines, but there are no what ifs, the guy is a hero, no doubt about it.

So here is to you armed dilvery guy, I'll drink it in your honor tonight.
I agree that this guy was a hero. But it's silly to say the 'what-ifs' don't matter. First off, though this guy is undoubtably heroic, but as a society we don't want to encourage this type of action. In most cases vigilantism makes a situation worse and when the difference between the guy being a hero and him being responsible for the deaths of others is a matter of luck, well that's not exactly heroism we want people engaging in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonth
I totally agree with this. If by chance the delivery man had hit someone other than the robbers he should be held accountable.

On the flip side if he had headshotted the robber outside and then waited for his buddy to come out and killed him too, he should be a citywide hero and given a medal. I drink with Ustwo. Or I would, if I liked beer, but I think I'll bring my rum instead. ^_^
No, on the flip side if he waited for the other robber to leave the store and headshotted him while escaping he would be a murderer. Lethal force is not acceptible in preventing a robbery, it is okay to protect the lives of people. Once those people were no longer in danger and he was just leaving with the money then shooting to kill him would not be heroic, it would be homocidal.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:46 AM   #25 (permalink)
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i thought this happened in florida, which would make this perfectly legal. florida, the new texas.
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:13 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
Yes, what he did was heroic and he was lucky nobody else got hurt. Because nobody else was hurt, the 'what ifs' don't matter. It would be an entirely different situation if the first guy had returned fire and then the guy inside started blasting people but that didn't happen so forget about it.

It should be clear that you are allowed to defend yourself and others if possible. However, you should be held responsible for the outcome, good or bad. If you fire 10 rounds and one hits a bystander, you should be charged with negligent homicide.
This is where I have to disagree. Why should you not hold the guy who initiated the crime with any resultant after effects, responsible? After all, if a group of 4 initiate a bank robbery and anyone dies, including one of the bank robbers, the surviving bank robbers would be charged with that murder.
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Old 11-03-2006, 02:13 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
This is where I have to disagree. Why should you not hold the guy who initiated the crime with any resultant after effects, responsible? After all, if a group of 4 initiate a bank robbery and anyone dies, including one of the bank robbers, the surviving bank robbers would be charged with that murder.
Again this is going to differ from state to state. What we are talking about here is the felony-murder rule which, essentially, holds criminals liable for deaths caused in the furtherance of certain felonies (including armed robbery). The problem with deaths caused by others is that it is not in the furtherance of the crime and the robbers wouldn't be liable then. Some states have drafted new legislation in the last decade or so that makes any deaths within the foreseeable risk of the commission of the felony fall under the rule. I know that New York, Wisconsin & New Jersey have adopted such laws and there it doesn't matter who did actual killing while in states that haven't enacted specific legislation the common law would still stand.
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Old 11-03-2006, 06:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuadDib
I agree that this guy was a hero. But it's silly to say the 'what-ifs' don't matter. First off, though this guy is undoubtably heroic, but as a society we don't want to encourage this type of action. In most cases vigilantism makes a situation worse and when the difference between the guy being a hero and him being responsible for the deaths of others is a matter of luck, well that's not exactly heroism we want people engaging in.
I'd have to say I would love to be in a society where this is encouraged. I don't see this as being a vigilante type of act. Vigilantism to me is actually going out and wandering around in known areas with a high crime rate and looking for bad guys. This is protecting innocent people.

I foresee someone asking whether or not I'd agree with it if I was an innocent bystander in a robbery and someone else pulled a gun on the robbers and one of the robbers killed me because of it. I would still agree. Hopefully the guy took the advantage and killed the robbers, thus saving everyone else. No one can know if the robbers would have killed without the provocation or not. Admittedly it's not the standard procedure for armed robbers, but I'd want to encourage people to protect others rather than be frozen because they could get in trouble for escalating the situation. I believe if it was encouraged crime rates would go down because robbers would be hesitent to attack people that can fight back without wondering if the law is on their side.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MuadDib
No, on the flip side if he waited for the other robber to leave the store and headshotted him while escaping he would be a murderer. Lethal force is not acceptible in preventing a robbery, it is okay to protect the lives of people. Once those people were no longer in danger and he was just leaving with the money then shooting to kill him would not be heroic, it would be homocidal.
By the rule of the law, yes, you will get in trouble for shooting someone fleeing the scene of a crime and not currently endangering anyone. I don't agree with the law. My problem with this, in this situation, is that you just saw the guy waving a gun at people. Who's to say he doesn't do it again tomorrow night and kill someone? I think if you see an armed robbery take place the robber should be fair game. Less risk to everyone if you can get him when he's not endangering anyone.

I do think this should only apply to ARMED robbers though. If he doesn't have a gun then the danger to innocents is greatly reduced and therefore killing him is an overreaction.

I get the feeling your hesitent to allow joe public that kind of leniancy with firearms and I can see where your coming from. I can easily see how it could go very badly, and undoubtedly it does sometimes. I just believe that encouraging people to protect one another is the best way to decrease the crime rate. Nothing against police, but they are hardly ever at the scene of a crime when it happens and there's no way they could be unless every other person was a cop.
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zed wolf
I like guns, I think everyone should have several. It is my opinion that if everybody had a gun with them at all times there would be less criminal use of guns. I mean really, A guy isn't going to pull a gun to rob a store if he knows everyone else there has one too. The same goes for other crime too, car jacking? if the driver has a gun too, along with everyone else on the street....







The only good form of gun control is using both hands.

Thats one of the stupidest things Ive read on this forum. Heres the facts my gun toting friend.

A Global Arms survey done in 2003 found that the U.S. has the largest number of publicy owned firearms in the world. Where there is one gun owned for every American.

Heres the link

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0709-03.htm



Hmm now I wonder what country holds the highest death rate for gun related deaths in the world. After doing a quick google I discovered a study done in 1994. Guess who's first in line.

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

A link to verify
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html


And just in case you were interested, in Australia once gun laws were tightened beginning in 1996 and concluding in 1998 gun related homicide deaths dropped by 30% from 1997 to 1998. There was also a drop in other gun related deaths. If you interested in reading more heres the link.

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

I've got one question, when you watch the news at night and hear about another child being killed by a gun in your country, does your heart hurt some or are you just thinking about whats for dinner?
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Old 11-03-2006, 09:19 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Gonth, come on man. You have to see why the law can not protect using lethal force on criminals after they've stopped endangering lives. The fact of the matter is that armed robbery is not a capital offense and as long as it stops at there I doubt many people think that it should be. But by okaying citizens to gun down armed robbers once its clear that they aren't threatening others any more is essentially the same as passing a death sentence on them. As for the 'whose to say... tomorrow' argument, I think you have to see how the law can not be about possible future crimes. At the point that citizens are allowed use lethal force against criminals after the crime then at what point does that green light to kill them end? There are plenty of similar questions that could be asked. Now I think it's good for people to have the attitude about this that you do, but as a matter of law I would hope we could agree that it couldn't be that couldn't fly.
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Old 11-03-2006, 09:57 PM   #31 (permalink)
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oh boy! lets play "Have fun with statistics!"

I was waiting for this post. ^_^

This is intended to be read in a friendly and sarcastic manner by the way. I'm not trying to be mean. I just really don't like statistics.

According to a NRA website in a post from 9/26/2006.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactShe...=206&issue=007

There are more guns than ever before.
- The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) estimates there were about 215 million guns in 1999
- The National Academy of Sciences puts the 1999 figure at 258 million

There are more states with Right-to-Carry laws than ever before. - 40

Right-to-Carry states had, on average, lower violent crime rates.
- total violent crime lower by 22%, murder by 30%, robbery by 46%, and aggravated assault by 12%.
--Here's a huge excel doc with crime rates from all 50 states, from the FBI site, that they apparently got these averages from. I didn't verify them because I'm lazy. ^_^ http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/d...ts/05tbl05.xls

According to the FBI website Violent crime rates from 2000-2004 have decreased by -8.1 percent.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...violent_crime/

So, along with an increase in the number of people with guns, and laws allowing them to protect themselves. There has been a decrease in the overall violent crime rate. I arbitrarilly claim these are related so I win. Not really, thats a lie, but you see what I mean.



To MuadDib, yea, I do understand why the law is in place and that it could never possibly be the way I said. Admittedly, I was thinking about the time directly after a crime when they are still at the scene and not considering farther along. I suppose the irony of my pro gun stance is that I really don't think capital punishment is right. I didn't think of the fact that, in essence, killing them after the crime has been commited and they are leaving is captial punishment. Thanks actually, I now have a valid reason for stopping my "kill the bugger" stance where I should. I love TFP. Arguments are fun.

Where are you on using lethal force to prevent a robbery in general? Although I don't know how you'd rob someone without threatening them and therefore giving them the right to use lethal force to protect themselves....

holy science!, my posts are getting too big.
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Last edited by Gonth; 11-03-2006 at 10:02 PM..
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:09 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Lethal force to prevent a robbery, in general? Well you can rob someone with the threat of non-lethal violence or even aggravated theft involving extortion. I suppose if there is no danger to anybody outside of the loss of property of some kind then attempting to kill the perpetrator to prevent the crime is too much. At that point I think we would unquestionably be talking about vigilantism; taking on the role of judge-jury-exectuioner without even the defensibility of trying to protect another life.

By science, I'm starting to sound ridiculously soft-on-crime and I'm really not. I guess that while I understand that our legal system is far from perfect that it really is the best in the world and that while I can disagree with the outcomes of a fair number of cases its still preferable to leave 'justice' to the various arms of law except when life is imminently threatened. In those cases we need people to act heroically.
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Old 11-04-2006, 01:33 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Master
Thats one of the stupidest things Ive read on this forum.

I've got one question, when you watch the news at night and hear about another child being killed by a gun in your country, does your heart hurt some or are you just thinking about whats for dinner?


I was waiting for someone to be offended by that and am actually surprised it took as long as it did. Dont read that the wrong way though it wasn't written only to be offensive. I will stick to my opinion though on everyone having guns. After all, if countries with strict gun control laws still have people getting killed by guns then that isn't a real solution. Statistically I would be more interested in how many deaths by guns there are in relation to how many guns there are in the country.
As to when a child is killed? I don't regard a child's life as any more or less important then any other.
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Old 11-04-2006, 07:21 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Master
Thats one of the stupidest things Ive read on this forum. Heres the facts my gun toting friend.

A Global Arms survey done in 2003 found that the U.S. has the largest number of publicy owned firearms in the world. Where there is one gun owned for every American.

Heres the link

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0709-03.htm
any 'global' arms survey is automatically suspect, simply by looking at the group responsible for the survey.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Master
Hmm now I wonder what country holds the highest death rate for gun related deaths in the world. After doing a quick google I discovered a study done in 1994. Guess who's first in line.

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

A link to verify
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
Many people try to bolster their gun control argument using this particular statistic, but the reality is that crime would be just as high using other means because of the number of criminals the current sytsem does not keep incarcerated. If guns were truly responsible for all the gun crime, then with over 200 million guns in the country, our population would be wiped out in 2 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Master
And just in case you were interested, in Australia once gun laws were tightened beginning in 1996 and concluding in 1998 gun related homicide deaths dropped by 30% from 1997 to 1998. There was also a drop in other gun related deaths. If you interested in reading more heres the link.

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm
while every other crime, rape, assault, and violent robbery has nearly doubled or more. Is it any concern to people that the unarmed populace is victimized and terrorized more than ever, now that they have no means of adequate defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Master
I've got one question, when you watch the news at night and hear about another child being killed by a gun in your country, does your heart hurt some or are you just thinking about whats for dinner?
Every death is tragic, whether it's by a gun or some other weapon, but the gun control groups conveniently ignore the true problem and that is the person behind said weapon.
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Old 11-04-2006, 10:14 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I remember watching Bowling for Colombine and a statistic was mentioned that Canada also has lots of guns (per capita?) on level or even more than the US but had significantly less crime. I thought that was very interesting.

The problem (in my opinion) isn't "lawful" guns owned by ordinary Joes, but rather, the ones by criminals.
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Old 11-04-2006, 06:42 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zed wolf
I was waiting for someone to be offended by that and am actually surprised it took as long as it did. Dont read that the wrong way though it wasn't written only to be offensive. I will stick to my opinion though on everyone having guns. After all, if countries with strict gun control laws still have people getting killed by guns then that isn't a real solution. Statistically I would be more interested in how many deaths by guns there are in relation to how many guns there are in the country.
As to when a child is killed? I don't regard a child's life as any more or less important then any other.
Waiting for someone to react but not wanting to be offensive in the same line? If you are going to write what you did in the narrow minded form you did, how could you not expect someone to take an offenensive approach to what appears to be total ignorance. As for the statistics you want to see, I suggest if your'e that interested, look it up.

I am aware statistics aren't always 100% accurate, they were put there purely as to point out the obvious. I can see you like your guns more than me so I'll rest my case and say no more.

Last edited by Mrs Master; 11-04-2006 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 11-05-2006, 09:05 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Location: Grants Pass OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Master
Thats one of the stupidest things Ive read on this forum. Heres the facts my gun toting friend.



Hmm now I wonder what country holds the highest death rate for gun related deaths in the world. After doing a quick google I discovered a study done in 1994. Guess who's first in line.

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

A link to verify
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html




I've got one question, when you watch the news at night and hear about another child being killed by a gun in your country, does your heart hurt some or are you just thinking about whats for dinner?
Did you even read the statistics you quoted, or were you hoping we wouldn't? Those aren't the gun death rates for all the countries of the world, only those who fall into the category of "richest in the world". I notice that "rich" isn't defined.

As far as your argument about the children? We call that trolling.
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Old 11-07-2006, 04:34 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj2112
Did you even read the statistics you quoted, or were you hoping we wouldn't? Those aren't the gun death rates for all the countries of the world, only those who fall into the category of "richest in the world". I notice that "rich" isn't defined.

As far as your argument about the children? We call that trolling.

As for your rich comment, it would have been helpful for that survey if they had defined rich, a fair point, I had failed to notice this lack of information myself, but that doesnt mean I didn't read it. I'm sure you can pick anyone to pieces if it suits your cause, believe what you choose, I wont force you to think any differently.

If Im a troll your a banana, I've seen a hell of alot worse written on this forum than what I've written in this thread, and havent seen the troll accusation thrown around as lightly as you have. Settle petal.
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