Frosstbyte

And if it did, I'd be saying the same things. It's a party. There are funny stereotypes. I think people just need to get over themselves about it.

jorgelito

The funny thing is piggy, I'm not even white. However, I do think fair is fair so I don't think it's nice to use derogatory terms about ANYONE. So if the 'n' word offends me, then faggot and white-trash-redneck-hick offends me too (assuming these are epithets).

By the way, I think your interfrat part idea is brilliant (seriously) with more thought and planning. Maybe if they tweaked the theme a bit though. Like Aerosmith and RUND DMC? (work with me here...)

jpmck03

~~

Gilda

When people employ stereotypes they shouldn't be surprised when the targets take exception. I think people need to be a little more aware of how their actions affect others.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

"Faggot" is definitely an epithet when used to describe gay males or transgendered people, either directly or by implication.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

jorgelito

Thanks Gilda, but I was actually just trying to be very neutral in my tone. Hopefully my post made sense and not cause confusion.

raeanna74

Oh for pity's sake. If the black community doesn't like whites mocking stupid getto/hood/urban behavior then perhaps they shouldn't behave in such a steriotypical way? The kids were being stupid. The whole theme was not with an intent to mock blacks but rather a chance to dress up and act like someone else - isn't that one of the main ideas of Halloween?? To be up in arms about this will only irritate that issue more. Good of the kids to at least apologize though I personally don't think they HAD to.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

pig

First of all, that version of "Walk this Way" is one of the best things I've ever heard. Maybe I just grew up at the right time. In fact, anything from Raisin' Hell is pretty whip-ass.

I always try to understand how redneck and hick are derogatory, but I never really feel they are. Maybe it's because I'm essentially inside the group, so it doesn't register with me. Kind of reminds me of a while back when I was driving downtown to get a drink with 3 puerto ricans, a black guy, and a white girl from Texas. One of puerto ricans was visiting, and I think he was a little astonished to be around a quasi-diverse group in SC, and made some comment on it. One of the other Puerto Ricans said something to the affect that we in a car with 3 spics, after which the black guy said some about adding one nigger, and the girl from texas said something about having two crackers. Everyone was laughing, no hard feelings - if anything those moments tend to lighten everyone up - but what I noticed is that I personally felt almost no tension about the cracker bit - I mean, I just don't care - whereas there was a noticable tension as soon as the words "spic" and "nigger" were uttered. I understand all of it, but I still don't equate "redneck" or "hick" as being quite on par. I guess I might be mildly irritated if someone of a different ethnicity called me a "hick," but I think it might more be irritated that they would expect that to be insulting to me, in the sense that I'd be dissapointed that they couldn't come up with something better.

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kutulu

I've seen plenty examples of white southerners getting sick of people referring to them as hicks and rednecks because of their accents and other aspects of their culture. Don't pretend that it's just minorities that get offended by stereotypes.

Why was the BSU upset? I don't know. It's not as if media makes it seem like the bling culture is the majority of black youths and the members of the BSU probably don't like being associated with a culture that presents itself in that fashion. I'm shocked SHOCKED that the BSU was offended.

It's 2006, I think it's pretty easy to tell if something has the potential to offend people. It's really not that hard. Therefore, if you can tell that a theme might offend outsiders, why go through with it? It's about being a conscientious human being and trying not to do things that will offend people. Sure, maybe the BSU was a little thin-skinned here and they suffered from sandinthevaginitis but the fact is that it should have been easy to see that the party might offend people and to just do it anyways is dickish.

Kaliena

The university might also be taking this more seriously because it wasn't just a random party by random students but by a fraternity. There's a good posibility that this fraternity may be a torn in someone's side and that might be another reason for really hyping it up...

Don't laugh, as a former Greek on campus, it really does happen.

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~Beware the waffle~

Bill O'Rights

Is this honestly how you feel?
Or...is it more about trying not to do things that will offend certain select groups of the minority du jour?
Think about it carefully before answering.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

pig

Hey, I believe you. As I said, I've got a lot of family that lives out on farmland, that hunt alot, confederate flags all over the place, etc. I imagine they would take offense to redneck / hick thing. However, I do feel that given the difference in the relatively modern American experience, that the level of insult given with redneck or hick (which are not strictly racial, but cultural - ie. you can have black hicks - its just commonly used), is much less than what I perceive blacks and hispanics perceive as the use of the previously mentioned racial slurs.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

roachboy

there is alot of politics around symbolism at colleges. i suspect it follows from a whole range of factors, one of which i think is that students run into fundamentally new ways of thinking about the world around them at univerisity, many of which are far more historically and politically oriented than they seem to have run into in the "what is real is rational" no child left behind backwater that is most high schools. the way in which these approaches to the social world are taught is via texts---so the effective politics--and often the conceptual frames--condense around words, around signs/signifiers--and amongst students who feel particularly strongly about the questions they encounter and the factors they discover, it is not surprising to find a kind of heightened sensitivity to symbolic politics.

personally, i think that this is in the main a good thing, though i wish that it would form the basis for a different, more active and militant public political life outside campuses as well, but one can dream i guess.

at any rate, conflicts over symbols are not necessarily empty, they more often than not resonate with or are linked to political questions in the outside world. i think there are few downsides to having the experience of political organization. i like that campuses are noisy places and that students (in particular) gather information, disseminate it, and stage actions. i think it is a good thing that they will make noise, take over the manicured greens, rattle the place.

this extends to conservative organizations even, though i would hope that conservative students would be less exactly like their talk show counterparts, would be less absolutely in line with the conservative talking points of the moment, would be more independent intellectually and discursively, but hey maybe servility is a skill as well. but it doesnt matter so much: what does matter is the experience of organization building and political mobilization. you would think this an important set of skills were the united states anything like a functional democracy, woudln't you?

that said, i dont think it follows that every action is equivalent as action, every protest a great thing because it is a protest. in the hopkins case, it is pretty clear that you have a stupid fraternity party based on a kind of meathead provocation as its theme, the invitations for which floated into the supercharged space of symbolic politics that is the public sphere at that school. it seems to me a passing conflict the significance of which is being magnified here by it being the topic of a thread.

in general, i an not a fan of fraternities: i think them floating islands of organized stupidity. they function mostly as retrograde extensions of high-school based modes of sociability. they throw stupid parties. they consume bad beer. they listen to bad music. but i guess they serve a useful function--folk forget that university functions as a theater of a complex developmental phase and that it is difficult to keep one's moorings as one passes through the system and so maybe it is reassuring to have a space to be a meathead at and about parties---it is surely a good thing to have alternatives to living in a dorm and eating the appalling food that most universities dump on their students--and it is a good thing to be provided with a space for creating networks of friends that can then have adventures. so i can see why fraternities are ok for the folk that pass through them, but i still dont like them. too many have too dense a history of doing really stupid things.

since frosstbyte brought it up.....

at penn, which is a school i know WAY too much about, the greek system as a whole was is much about a reinforcement of the class order from which the student population was drawn as anything else. they seem to be about reinforcing a sense of class position when other aspects of their education tend to force students to re-evaluate their sense of social identity. and in that, the system served a pretty foul function: it doesnt really matter so much what you learn or what you think, what matters is how much money mummy and daddy have, what your background was as a function of how much money mummy and daddy have, your class-specific modes of sociability, based on how much money mummy and daddy have, and whether your particular embodiment of your class position "fits" with the template of a particular frat. so dont worry so much if you get to penn and find that you are not as elite as you imagined yourself to be in high school--all this academic stuff only goes so far--remember, kids, that your class position can be determinate of your identity---what you wear, how you carry yourself, your abilities at bonhommie--these things matter.

i found frosstbyte's posts in this thread to be very very strange in that they seemed to be a totally unself-conscious repetition of the narcissism of penn frat life---why would anyone take offense at stuff that "we" do for "us"? it is not about "them"......our parties, their stupid themes, they are "our" jokes--the parties are about bad beer, bad music and class-specific mating rituals--if you dont like it, dont come to the party, dude.

it is as if the primary institutions within the university that reinforce social class as determinate (within a university that effectively does the same thing objectively as a function of admission criteria and tuition levels and--in particular--the relaxed admission standards for legacies) are in some bizarre private sphere and should not be held to account for anything, much less for affronts generated by their actions at the level of symbolic politics.

and this is, at bottom, why i find fraternities to be foul: they generate and sustain the illusion that class is not a political issue, that it is not a public sphere matter, that it---and its effects---are private matters. that class position is about "us" and not about the relational system of which it is necessarily a part. this seems to me the underlying problem that surfaces through what i take to be a fairly insignificant political flash at hopkins, and what i saw running through frosstbyte's posts as well-which i single out only because he references my alma mater and so brought a space that i know altogether too well into this...

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Lasereth

It could be worse. It could be the Black Student Organization at my school that has meetings every month with banners strewn everywhere. The banners? Oh, they say, "Black Student Organization meeting -- Thursday at 9:00 PM. Come celebrate your diversity. Blacks ONLY."

Sure enough, there's a club at my school that only allows black people admittance, and celebrates how black people are different than others during the meetings. And people wonder why crap like the OP's article happen. Diversity is the fucking cancer of our planet.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

krwlz

I concur, imagine if we had a white student union? Things would get militant.

As far as the party goes, I see no problem there. I find grillz and the rest retarded. I cant help it if some black people like them, im going to make fun of it regardless of race.

I've used it so much, that I'm starting to get sick of this phrase but...

NO WHERE IN THE CONSITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, DOES IT SAY THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT NOT TO BE OFFENDED.

Get over it people, racism won't go away until people, all people, stop throwing it in the spot light, let it go, and move the fuck on.

Gilda

Nor does it say you can't object when you are offended.

I disagree. Throwing a spotlight on it and saying "This is wrong," is the single best way of combating bigotry.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

jorgelito

There are many white student unions: Daughters of the Confederacy, Erin Go Braugh, Polish Student Society, Italian Student Union, Lithuanian Student Union, French Club, Hellenic Students on Campus, Armenian Student Union, Turkish Student Union, Swedish Student Union, Germanis Student Society, Oi Aussie Student Club, Ros on Campus, etc..etc....

There's nothing wrong with a Black Student Union

Wow, this is a great quote. Do they not see the irony here?

I disagree. Diversity can be abused but overall I think diversity is a good thing.

Gilda

For what it's worth, the GLBTA organization at my school welcomes straight people. We have several straight members. The same was true at the schools I went to for undergrad and grad work.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

kutulu

I don't know what you are getting at here. IMO, I don't see what is so hard at looking at a theme and deciding on whether or not people might take offense to it. Also, you left out the other part about people needing to not get so offended by everything (why?).

It goes both ways, people need to be more sensitive about what they say and they also don't need to get their panties in a bunch about what everyone else says.

krwlz

And not a one of those cater to white american males specifically. Polish, Italian, Femails, Lituanian, French, etc etc....

Now if i started a "American Causcaison Club" and only allowed people that have had the past 5 generations within the US, as citizens, for males only, I garaun-fucking-tee I'd catch some hell for it.

jorgelito

And not all Black Student Unions cater to only black males specifically. My brother was in the Black Student Union at his school.

The list above "caters" to their respective groups. And you can start an American Caucasian Club if you wished as long as it was in accordance to university policies and guidelines.

On another note, the Jewish Clubs at our school ARE Jewish only. I tried to sign up so that I could go to Israel but was denied.

krwlz

I suppose, but I bet a group for white american males gets a supremist tag pretty quickly.

But its a moot point, as I'm not going to sway you.

stevo

we called them "pimps 'n hos" parties. We had people from several different races attend. We also had strippers. I wish I was still in college.

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

jorgelito

No, no not at all, your point is well taken and I do see it as plausible, actually highly likely that a group would get that tag. I just wanted to point out that there were other aspects as well and such.

pig

jorgelito, krwlz

i agree with the white supremicist tag on the A.C.C. - and what's more, it would probably be pretty accurate. to think that it would be is to ignore the history of race relations for the past several hundred years. i'm not a white apologist, by a long shot, but the facts are that predominantly white europeans took over the world and put everyone in chains? why? because they could, and that's what you did back in the day. (we still kind of do that these days too) its a natural thing that the group that hasn't been oppressed for hundreds of years probably won't need a club to establish their identity and feelings of equality, the non-tradionally dominant groups miight. it doesn't really bother me.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Moskie

damn right. friends of mine have also thrown "golf pros and tennis hoes" and "white trash beer bash" parites as well. people need to lighten up.

feh, i guess the real problem was the fact that it's a frat throwing the party, and that frat has private governing bodies to answer to. maybe this is along the same lines as watching porn at work: it's not illegal, but it will still get you fired.

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Greetings and salutations.

DaElf

LOL @ gilda changing the name of the party to make it sound more offensive.

Poor black people can't afford grills or bling. Bling and grills are not race specific either are baggy clothes. You see that sort of fashion on T.V. on multiple races including asians and whites. Since when do clothes represent a race anyway?

The skeleton had a pirate hat on. In my life I don't think I have ever seen a black man wear a pirate hat except maybe at an amusement park some where. Unless that is some new black urban craze than them using a skeleton on halloween is not racist.

This whole thing is ridiculuos. These black kids at the university were obviously hoodwinked into complaining by an over powered racist black man. DAMN THE BLACK DEVIL. I'm gonna go watch W.E.T. TV now.

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I'm sitting at my desk right now waiting for you to reply to the above message.

Vincentt

This is 100% retarded.

I am really speechless that a pirate skeleton in a tree is being equated to a lynching.

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Manic_Skafe

Just as someone stated above, one of the most fundamental skills that college graduates acquire is the ability to network - the suspension of the frat as the subsequent result of their actions, whether you believe them to be racist or not, is justifiable enough simply because their party succeeded in alienating not only the members of the Black Student Union but what is apparently every single person living in the local area.

I wouldn't go so far as to assume these students are racist but they surely could've helped me (along with the Black Student Union and the school administration) believe that they weren't - if their comical style of dress was to truly be indicative of the "regional clothing from our locale" then they seem to have a very limited (and seemingly racist) perception of those that live in the area of the school.

Had they not added with their fliers that the party was themed after those from the area then the sentiments expressed by the Black Student Union would be nothing more than an overreaction.

And while some may realize that they have so little an argument to stand on that they search for parallels between the effects of the party and the fact that the Black Student Union is oriented towards black students "and is thus just as exclusionary" - even if the Black Student Union was so exclusionary that it was open only to the blackest of all black students it'd still succeed much more in uniting those few students than the mockery and exclusionary overtones of the party could ever allow for.

I'm surprised that you even have the time to type this when you've apparently dedicated yourself to surveying all black people - everywhere. Please continue you statements as justified as the one I've quoted above as you're apparently the expert.

This thread has left me thoroughly disappointed. Simply put, I thought the TFP was better than this.

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

_God_

But don't you get offended if a male opens a door for you?

More importantly, assuming that making fun of someone who jams a bunch of metal in his mouth and wears his pants beneath his ass makes you a bigot, does a person have a right to be a bigot?

P.S. Don't watch "Pirates of the Caribbean." The first one has skeletons hanging in one of the very first scenes.

Disney shouldn't get away with that.

libragirl

wow!! if the shoe was on the other foot and there was a black frat who had a redneck/trailer park trash party and people were dressed up the way they see poor white folks, would any of you not be offended? just a hypothetical question. don't jump down my throat. i just want some HONEST feedback from the people who think it was dumb for the BSU to get offended.

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cj2112

I would not be offended if a black frat had a "Hillbilly Halloween" party, as a matter of fact, I think it's a great idea, but even better would would be "Halloween in the Hamptons", where they dress up like the stereo typical Biff and Muffy rich white people. I really think people need to stop looking for a reason to be offended.

mixedmedia

It wasn't a "make fun of Flava" party. It was a "make fun of black people" party.

I'm not going to go so far as to say they should be punished for what they did, but it was a pretty ignorant thing to do and if they caught some flak for it, well boo-hoo. If one of my kids was involved in something like that they'd certainly get the pointy end of my opinion, too. Funny thing though, my kids would find such a party to be distasteful and would say so because that's the way they were brought up. It's the way I was brought up. My parents grew up in the South in a world where black people were fair game as the brunt of white people's jokes, including in their own families. They made a point of breaking that cycle of racism with their own kids much to the chagrin at times of my grandparents. Too many people have lost touch with exactly how ugly a mark racism has left on America in our all too recent past. I think the sensitivity on this issue should not only be expected but also called for.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

soccerchamp76

As other people pointed out, imagine if a black fraternity had a "dress like rich white kids" or "dress like a redneck" party. I don't think there would be a single complaint whatsoever.

My school has no fraternities/sororities, but upperclassmen live in houses off-campus, typically 4-7 people in a house, and "house parties" dominate. Well, there was a "Thug party" where the costume theme was the same as this party. It wasn't Halloween, though. No complaints.

I think there are just some overly sensitive people. If the black group cares about racism, do they know how hypocritical it is for their student government group to even exist? Or how some of their members are probably getting a free ride because of a "Martin Luther King Jr. Scholarship"?

Or the varying reactions you would get if this happened:
A white student saw a random black person crossing the street and yelled, "You nigger!"
A black student saw a random white person crossing the street and yelled, "You cracker!"

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Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

sasKuach

Spot on. And what's worse, people like me, who's great great great grandparents lived on a different continent during that time and took no part in such racist behavior are ALSO expected to be apologists. THAT's what pisses me off.

Gilda

No. Where did you get that idea? I'm usually pleased with this, regardless of the sex of the person doing so, because doors can be difficult for me if I'm carrying something.

Sure. Those who are the targets of the bigotry have an equal right to voice their objections.

The Pirates of the Caribbean movies make fun of black people? I must have missed that part.

I didn't change the name. I described my interpretation of the intent, clearly identifying that description as my own words.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

mixedmedia

It has nothing to do with being apologists. It has to do with not being ignorant turds. If you're not behaving that way, then who exactly is asking you to apologize? I'm 41 years old, have lived in the south all my life and never once have I been asked to apologize for America's racist past.

What if the party were one in which people dressed up like "Injuns" and danced around with feathers and tomahawks making fun of Native Americans? Or how 'bout portraying them as alcoholics who live in trailers? That's funny, ain't it? Whoo boy, what fun! How about a party making fun of gays and lesbians? I have a funny suspicion that those parties would give people a little more pause. Why is that?

For smartass white kids in college to have a party mocking any minority group is just plain childish and stupendously ignorant and an open invitation for whatever grief any offended group wants to pile on them in my opinion. Don't want to be bothered by it? Then grow the hell up.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

Correction: you live in Florida

But seriously, I agree with this entirely. The students would have to aware that they were skating a pretty thin line with this party theme. Its not really a stretch to percieve racism inherent in this situation.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

I live in Florida now, but my people reign from Gawgia, honey pie.

and also...

I'm glad you understand. We seem to have developed a knee-jerk under-reaction to racism against blacks. It's a cultural thing I don't quite understand.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

soccerchamp76

How do you feel about the fact that a school organization called the "Black Student Government" is allowed to exist? Is that racist? Or how about the fact that every member of said group is probably at the school on a scholarship that isn't merit based?

__________________
Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.