What do you think? "Frat suspended over 'Hood' party" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Moskie · 10-31-2006, 11:24 AM

Here's the link to the article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061031/...alloween_party

Basically, a frat was suspended for hosting a halloween party where the guests were asked to wear "regional clothing from our locale" with jewelry including "bling bling ice ice, grills" and "hoochie hoops." The Black Student Union took offense, and then the shit hit the fan.

Man, I just think this is so stupid, on many levels. The frat was trying to make fun of some of the absurd things you'll see celebrities wear, not of any particular race of people. I almost feel sorry for the black community, if they see things like grills and other stupid clothes and instantly associate it with their whole race.

And then they complain about a pirate skeleton on a noose they had, and claim that it was a racial thing. A skeleton. On a noose. With a pirate hat. At halloween time.

Can't we all just laugh about how stupid grillz are? Seriously.

Willravel · 10-31-2006, 11:43 AM

It's reverse racism. Our great great great grandparents owned slaves, our great great grandparents lynched blacks, our great grandparents wouldn't let blacks vote, our grandparents treated blacks like crap, our parents stole their music, and we're not sure what to do. I'm not racist. I've never owned slaves. I've never lynched anyone. I've never kept anyone from voting. I've never treated anyone differently because of race, gender (cept for dating, there I make a gender coice) or creed. I've not kept anyone down....and yet people like me are still expected to be apologists for the sins of our fathers.

If there is racism, stamp it out. If there isn't racism, and you call it racism, it's still racism somehow! What a world we live in.

Jinn · 10-31-2006, 11:46 AM

I definitely don't think a 'hood' party is racist, as there are plenty of ghetto white people in the 'hood.'

And I was totally with you, too.. but then I read the article.

Quote:

The party, held Saturday night at the fraternity house, featured a skeleton pirate hanging on a noose.

That's pushin' it a little too far. Maybe not fraternity suspended far, but kinda sketchy nonetheless.

Moskie · 10-31-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

That's pushin' it a little too far. Maybe not fraternity suspended far, but kinda sketchy nonetheless.

but why? If I were to see a skeleton hanging on a noose, I don't immediately think that it must have been a black person hung by white supremecists. Doubly so if the skeleton has a pirate hat on it. Quadruply (i'm declaring this a word) so if it's on halloween!

Ustwo · 10-31-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I definitely don't think a 'hood' party is racist, as there are plenty of ghetto white people in the 'hood.'

And I was totally with you, too.. but then I read the article.

That's pushin' it a little too far. Maybe not fraternity suspended far, but kinda sketchy nonetheless.

Yea I haven't seen a pirate in a noose since I was at Disney world.

jorgelito · 10-31-2006, 11:55 AM

Well, it sounds like they're doing the right things. The members apologized, the community is organizing a meeting to discuss the issues.

I didn't think it was racist, perhaps at the most, in poor taste. Even the skeleton noose in the context (pirates) shouldn't have been a problem, but the party wasn't about pirates, it was a more..."urban" theme.

While we may not think it's racist, apparently some people do. I think it isn't a bad thing to honor that and at the very least have some sort of dialogue. The wounds of racism are deep in this country, it will take some time to heal. And that's ok.

On the other hand, it's easy to see how the BSU was offended, especially on a college campus environment. The few blacks on our campus were always going nuts and protesting something or other. They even went as far as accusing the university of being racist because there are so few blacks on campus. Same with the Latino students.

I say, let them be and they will figure it out on their own eventually, let them say their peace.

Frosstbyte · 10-31-2006, 11:59 AM

It's ridiculous and it's stupid. People need to grow up and grow some thick skin. "hood" culture is RIPE for parody. Hell, it parodies itself! It thrives on its own absurdity. Flava of Love anyone?

Nooses and skeletons (particularly ones with pirate hats) are VERY TRADITIONAL Halloween decorations. My fraternity held several Halloween parties and, wouldn't you know it, we had hung skeletons at every single one of them. We dressed out budget bucky skeleton up differently from year to year, but so it goes. Nothing about this is bizarre. Nothing about this is racist. Nothing about this is worthy of a lawsuit or is "deeply disturbing."

Welcome to the 21st century, morons. There are more important things going on in the world than looking to be offended by a bunch of college students having a fun party.

I can't wait to sue when a group of black students throw a party mocking the Backstreet Boys. If they have any voodoo heads on sticks, I'll be really offended because my ancestors were explorers who were beheaded by an African tribe.

No.

Really.

Seaver · 10-31-2006, 12:07 PM

At my school Kappa Alpha fraternity was kicked out for 15 years for something similar, though very different. They quite litterally advertised their "Nigger and Hoes" party. Their frat showed up with blackface, and pre-party watermelon with fried chicken was served. It was intended as a fundraiser to prepare their house. Their house has since been sold and demolished, and are most likely will never return to the largest University in the country.

This is completely different in my opinion, just some halloween decorations, a theme party conflicting with some overly-sensitive "you owe me because.." people.

Carno · 10-31-2006, 12:08 PM

Why is there a black student union?

cj2112 · 10-31-2006, 12:09 PM

I think the three frat boys who apologized screwed up. They should have told the Black Student Union to get over itself. This is ridiculous.

jorgelito · 10-31-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Why is there a black student union?

Same reason there is a Knights of Columbus, Erin Go Braugh, Student Republicans etc

Carno · 10-31-2006, 12:47 PM

Ya know, I've always wondered just what the hell the Knights of Columbus was about.... is that like a cult or something? Are they like the Masons?

ratbastid · 10-31-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Same reason there is a Knights of Columbus, Erin Go Braugh, Student Republicans etc

Flock mentality?

Seriously: this is lame. The party was in poor taste, but I'm sure frats do as bad or worse most weekends. Also, your classic stereotypical pirate is white.

jorgelito · 10-31-2006, 12:52 PM

The Knihts of Columbus are a club for Italians. That's what all these groups are, clubs for people who share something in common. Although you may be correct that they are similar to or orginating from some sort of Masonic tradition.

I'm not too clear on what Rotary, Lions, Elk and Shriners etc are but I suspect I will probably have to join one when I get older. I always thought it was just an excuse for middle aged men to get together and drink beer and act juvenile while doing charity.

Well, Carno, you got me curious so I looked it up. I was off (but not too far off) - here is the info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Columbus

Gilda · 10-31-2006, 01:10 PM

I can see why the black student union would find this objectionable. The language of the invitation dances around it, but it sure looks and sounds a lot like a "dress like a stereotypical black person" party. Upscale universities like Johns Hopkins that have a predominantly white student population and are located in a predominantly black community often have problems with racial sensitivity that go both ways. Duke gets much the same difficulty. Given the pre-exisiting difficulties such schools often have, being a little overly cautious is understandable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Same reason there is a Knights of Columbus, Erin Go Braugh, Student Republicans etc

Precisely. College campuses are filled with groups that share a common interest getting together for mutual support. It's nothing new, and does support one of the purposes of a college education, social networking.

Glory's Sun · 10-31-2006, 01:13 PM

I find it boring and pretty silly, but I've seen it all before. Having attended way too many Duke University parties to remember, I do remember how people would mention they hoped that it wouldn't cause a shitstorm. Regardless of a shit storm or not, those were some damn good parties.

kutulu · 10-31-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I can see why the black student union would find this objectionable. The language of the invitation dances around it, but it sure looks and sounds a lot like a "dress like a stereotypical black person" party. Upscale universities like Johns Hopkins that have a predominantly white student population and are located in a predominantly black community often have problems with racial sensitivity that go both ways. Duke gets much the same difficulty. Given the pre-exisiting difficulties such schools often have, being a little overly cautious is understandable.

Exactly. This is a college full of rich white kids (presumably) located in a mostly poor black area. These rich white kids had a party where the theme was (basically) "make fun of the urban black kids you see outside of campus" and you people don't understand why the black student union got ticked?

It's totally fair to debate whether or not the response and subsequent discipline was justified but if you can't even see why people might get upset you are out of touch. How many white celebs and kids wear grills and over the top bling? Do the ones that do typically get made fun of for trying to look black? Be honest, that type of fashion is largly black-oriented.

Would asians be offended if there was a kung fu party and everyone wore buck teeth and bamboo conical hats?

Toaster126 · 10-31-2006, 02:33 PM

This is stupid. What made this an issue was the skeleton, which unless it had a friggin' afro wig on it, isn't racist. People are just scared of having the racist label on them. I don't think the skeleton decoration was intended to be racist, and you certainly can't prove it was.

Toaster126 · 10-31-2006, 02:33 PM

This is stupid. What made this an issue was the skeleton, which unless it had a friggin' afro wig on it, isn't racist. People are just scared of having the racist label on them. I don't think the skeleton decoration was intended to be racist, and you certainly can't prove it was.

Frosstbyte · 10-31-2006, 02:34 PM

See, here's the problem. I went to UPenn, which is in the middle of West Philadelphia. It's a bad neighborhood. If you're stupid or unlucky, it's a dangerous neighborhood. You spend a lot of time dealing with people begging for money, with groups of people staring you down while you walk down the street, with local employees all but refusing to serve your scrawny-white-entitled-ass but GOD FORBID you respond to any of that, because then you're a racist. Ever been walking to class when a pack of thirteen year olds tear down the sidewalks on their bikes shouting epithets, catcalling and blasting music? Each of them doing their best to play chicken with every pedestrian so that someone can run into someone else and they can start trouble?

Town and gown is a tough dynamic even under "ideal" circumstances. It's a lot tougher when there are racial differences and economic differences to exacerbate that. It's not fun to have a neighborhood look at you like YOU personally are the man who is keeping them from succeeding. And, as these poor bastards found out, there's not a damn thing you can do about it without people screaming "ENTITLED, INSENSITIVE RACISTS!"

Sure, they didn't have a My Little Ponies party. They picked a theme that had something of an edge to it, probably because it's something that they encounter and think about every day, so they thought, on a night when everyone's dressing up and doing crazy stuff, they'd play on it and dress up and do crazy stuff. My fraternity had a hotel party where we had a room what was themed "Wiggers" to make fun of white kids who act all ghetto and we wore baggy clothes and drank malt liquor. Does that make us racist or culturally insensitive?

The "victims of discrimination" can make people feel pretty victimized, too. My family, in its entirety, came to the United States after slavery ended. They were peasants in their countries of origin; some more distant relatives were serfs. They worked hard. They learned English. Their descendants are all professionals or are in academia. Why do I deserve to face daily hatred and scorn from the people around my school's community because of the simple fact that I'm white and academically successful? It's frustrating and, over four years (as you can tell), you can develop some pretty strong feelings about it. This party was an outlet for that feeling. Being suspended over it is absurd. The black student union of course has a right to protest if they're offended, but for the school president to feel "deeply distrubed" is stupid, as are any administartive and/or legal consequences.

kutulu · 10-31-2006, 03:14 PM

Frostbyte:

Let me see if I'm getting this right. It's ok to make fun of them because they are dicks to you? Also, please note the difference between individuals being dicks and a college-sponsored organization being dicks.

Toaster:

I don't think that the skeleton is all they are mad about. Did you miss that the whole party was a parody of urban black youths?

Frosstbyte · 10-31-2006, 03:25 PM

As a side note, fraternities are not "college-sponsored." At best they're "college-recognized" and at worst "college-tolerated." They are not in any way spokesmen for the university. They're organized, exclusive groups of friends. In every group of friends I've ever been in, we made fun of people who were dicks to us. I'd be pretty shocked if you and everyone else here didn't.

The black-face party by the KA Order is a good example of a problem. This party is not a problem. It's a joke. You don't have to attend. You don't have to laugh. They wanted to laugh about it with their friends. Everyone else is looking for trouble and ways to be offended and the school is looking to appease people who are overreacting.

roachboy · 10-31-2006, 03:31 PM

frosstbyte: when were you at penn?

Gilda · 10-31-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

As a side note, fraternities are not "college-sponsored." At best they're "college-recognized" and at worst "college-tolerated." They are not in any way spokesmen for the university. They're organized, exclusive groups of friends. In every group of friends I've ever been in, we made fun of people who were dicks to us. I'd be pretty shocked if you and everyone else here didn't.

There's a difference between being upset with the specific people who have caused you offense and mocking the larger group to which they belong, as if a characteristic like race or economic status made everyone in that group responsible. I dislike homophobes, but don't mock all straight people just because those who've targeted me for various reasons were straight.

Quote:

The black-face party by the KA Order is a good example of a problem. This party is not a problem. It's a joke. You don't have to attend. You don't have to laugh. They wanted to laugh about it with their friends. Everyone else is looking for trouble and ways to be offended and the school is looking to appease people who are overreacting.

Oh, I strongly disagree. Giving the party a blatantly racist name and theme is good reason for the University to withdraw official recognition. "It's a joke" doesn't excuse blatant bigotry.

kutulu · 10-31-2006, 03:41 PM

"college-sponsored", "college-recognized", "college-tolerated" whatever, same difference. You have to recognize the difference between a couple of co-workers being dicks and a franchise of a company being dicks.

You are drawing a comparison between you and your friends to a nationally organized group. There is a big difference.

Moskie · 10-31-2006, 04:04 PM

So for people who found this offensive: can you suggest a way to make fun of people like Flava Flav, who are begging to be mocked, without being racist? or are we not allowed to make fun him and the fashion trend of people like him, because he's black and majority of people who partake in these fasions are black?

look, these people are making fun of a retarded fashion trend. nothing more. if you interpret that as being racist, then you're fishing for an argument when there should be none.

Carno · 10-31-2006, 04:12 PM

I thought everyone knew this already: if you are white you are not allowed to say or do anything that could possibly be construed as anything other than apologism to any minority or you are a RACIST.

Frosstbyte · 10-31-2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

frosstbyte: when were you at penn?

I'm SAS05.

Gilda · 10-31-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskie

look, these people are making fun of a retarded fashion trend. nothing more. if you interpret that as being racist, then you're fishing for an argument when there should be none.

When it's prefaced by a description that amounts to "dress like a poor black person", that's a problem, and is bound to exacerbate the already existing animosity in the area, which gives the school a good reason to discourage such behavior.

When you openly mock others, particularly those with whom there is preexisting hostility, you should expect that their getting upset is a foreseeable and reasonable consequence.

Frosstbyte · 10-31-2006, 04:27 PM

Exactly, people are fishing for arguments. They're looking to be offended. It's stupid to look for reasons to be offended. I can spend all day looking for things to piss me off, but it'll get really old really fast because something happens literally every second. It was a party poking fun at a culture that these kids-and lots of others, including people who are part of the culture-find entertaining and ridiculous. It has a little edge to it, but, at the end of the day, it's not overtly racist or hate-filled or violent or destructive.

I bet you no less than 100 parties with similar themes happened over Halloween weekend. People pounced on this, so now it's a big deal. If they hadn't been looking to be offended by something, it would've just been another party that some people thought was offensive and didn't go to and some people thought was hilarious and relished every moment of it.

cj2112 · 10-31-2006, 04:29 PM

it wasn't prefaced by "dress like a poor black person". It was prefaced by dress in a style that happens to be popular with poor and rich people of every race, but typical of less affluent neighborhoods. Again, it's time for the Black Student Union and the NAACP to get over themselves.

pig · 10-31-2006, 04:32 PM

I don't know - I just read the article in the OP. Based on what I've read about this and what's been revealed in the thread, I can easily see how the BSU would be upset, but I don't agree with the position of the University on this. I definately think the skeleton aspect is a situation where an offended party is seeing what they want to see. If it was the only Halloween decoration at the party, maybe...maybe I could see it...particularly if it didn't resemble a pirate (which apparently it did). I don't think the party was really the best idea, but I don't think they should be suspended for it. I guess I pretty much see this as a freedom of expression situation, and I think that encouraging kids to have a healthy respect for the freedom of expression is one of the best things about college. It's one of the only times that people get to experience it to that degree, and then the rest of their lives they have to work to determine how they can assimilate freedom of expression into their lives in the real world.

In short, I'd guarantee that at least some of the members of this frat were/are either blatantly or socially racist - but I don't think the specifics of this situation warrant the reaction its receiving.

edit: i just remembered that i had some friends who threw a "Trailer Park" party about a month ago. Everyone wear a fake mullet, women wear fake stuff to look like they're pregnant, drink bud light, etc. If that were college sponsors, would the WTU (white trash union) have legitimate reason to have the party shut down. Would the university care? What would the reaction to this party be if it were thrown by the BSU, or Alpha Phi Alpha?

edit had to correct a their/they're issue. God, I'm one of those people...

Lady Sage · 10-31-2006, 04:33 PM

Some people just need to stop playing "victim" and get over themselves.

Gilda · 10-31-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

Exactly, people are fishing for arguments. They're looking to be offended. It's stupid to look for reasons to be offended.

Well, that's quite a bit different from what I said.

How do you know they're "looking to get offended?"

roachboy · 10-31-2006, 05:01 PM

forget it......

Frosstbyte · 10-31-2006, 05:08 PM

My inference from the available facts leads me to believe that given the option to ignore something they disliked or to make a big stink about something that some college students thought would be a good theme for a party, they decided to make a big stink about it. It's about picking battles. They chose this battle, and, from the facts I have, I can't imagine why they care that much. I have a very hard time believing these people are personally offended that some of their fellow students were making fun of grills and bling. It's far easier for me to believe they are looking for a fight or for some reason dislike this fraternity and were looking for a reason to give them grief.

jorgelito · 10-31-2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

I don't know - I just read the article in the OP. Based on what I've read about this and what's been revealed in the thread, I can easily see how the BSU would be upset, but I don't agree with the position of the University on this. I definately think the skeleton aspect is a situation where an offended party is seeing what they want to see. If it was the only Halloween decoration at the party, maybe...maybe I could see it...particularly if it didn't resemble a pirate (which apparently it did). I don't think the party was really the best idea, but I don't think they should be suspended for it. I guess I pretty much see this as a freedom of expression situation, and I think that encouraging kids to have a healthy respect for the freedom of expression is one of the best things about college. It's one of the only times that people get to experience it to that degree, and then the rest of their lives they have to work to determine how they can assimilate freedom of expression into their lives in the real world.

In short, I'd guarantee that at least some of the members of this frat were/are either blatantly or socially racist - but I don't think the specifics of this situation warrant the reaction its receiving.

edit: i just remembered that i had some friends who threw a "Trailer Park" party about a month ago. Everyone wear a fake mullet, women wear fake stuff to look like they're pregnant, drink bud light, etc. If that were college sponsors, would the WTU (white trash union) have legitimate reason to have the party shut down. Would the university care? What would the reaction to this party be if it were thrown by the BSU, or Alpha Phi Alpha?

edit had to correct a their/they're issue. God, I'm one of those people...

This has happened before. I think someone of moderate importance (can't remember who) protested some new reality TV show featuring "poor white trash" and "hick rednecks" (an offensive epithet to me at least) and I think was successful in shutting it down. Anyone else remember this?

Gilda · 10-31-2006, 05:36 PM

I can see why they might be offended, but there's really no way to put myself in their shoes and understand how they felt, so in the absence of any reason to think they were looking to be offended, I assume they genuinely were offended. Vocally opposing what you perceive to be prejudice is generally a good thing. It may have been an overreaction in this case, colored by previous tension, and I probably wouldn't have drawn the line where they did, but I'm not in their shoes.

One person's opposing prejudice is another's overreacting to a small thing. I prefer to err on the side of courtesy.

Sure it's a question of freedom of expression. On both ends. The frat is free to have the party themed this way, and the black student union is free to say they don't like that theme.

uncle phil · 10-31-2006, 06:22 PM

pig · 10-31-2006, 06:32 PM

jorgelito, I knew axl rose would find some way to stay in the limelight.

seriously, i'm don't think i'm poor white trash, but some could make an argument for the "hick redneck" part - but i don't really feel offended by the terms. Then again, I grew up in suburbia, so I'm not really at the far end of the hick thing.

My cousins are. They might actually be offended to be called a hick. Interesting, I'll have to ask.

gilda i agree totally - i think. if it were up to me, based on the limited amount of information i have about this one incident, i don't know that i'd take the actions that the university has. no question the bsu has the right to voice / file a complaint.

i actually do think it would make a difference if the sponsoring frat had been a traditional black frat like alpha phi alpha, or if the sigma chi frat had thrown it together with a black frat. (i'd pay to see the guys from sigma chi approaching the alphas about that idea

)its never really going to play well to have a bunch of white kids making fun of black culture, particularly in a city full of black people.

i wonder what the reaction would have been if alpha phi alpha threw a trailer park party, and really took it to extremes of making fun of caricatures of white culture in the middle of a rural white area. i'd bet that wouldn't cause any problems

/sarcasm

10-31-2006, 11:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
Moskie Pure Chewing Satisfaction Location: can i use bbcode [i]here[/i]?	What do you think? "Frat suspended over 'Hood' party" Here's the link to the article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061031/...alloween_party Basically, a frat was suspended for hosting a halloween party where the guests were asked to wear "regional clothing from our locale" with jewelry including "bling bling ice ice, grills" and "hoochie hoops." The Black Student Union took offense, and then the shit hit the fan. Man, I just think this is so stupid, on many levels. The frat was trying to make fun of some of the absurd things you'll see celebrities wear, not of any particular race of people. I almost feel sorry for the black community, if they see things like grills and other stupid clothes and instantly associate it with their whole race. And then they complain about a pirate skeleton on a noose they had, and claim that it was a racial thing. A skeleton. On a noose. With a pirate hat. At halloween time. Can't we all just laugh about how stupid grillz are? Seriously. __________________ Greetings and salutations. Last edited by Moskie; 10-31-2006 at 11:30 AM..

10-31-2006, 12:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	At my school Kappa Alpha fraternity was kicked out for 15 years for something similar, though very different. They quite litterally advertised their "Nigger and Hoes" party. Their frat showed up with blackface, and pre-party watermelon with fried chicken was served. It was intended as a fundraiser to prepare their house. Their house has since been sold and demolished, and are most likely will never return to the largest University in the country. This is completely different in my opinion, just some halloween decorations, a theme party conflicting with some overly-sensitive "you owe me because.." people. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

10-31-2006, 12:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Why is there a black student union? __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

10-31-2006, 12:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Ya know, I've always wondered just what the hell the Knights of Columbus was about.... is that like a cult or something? Are they like the Masons? __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

10-31-2006, 12:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	The Knihts of Columbus are a club for Italians. That's what all these groups are, clubs for people who share something in common. Although you may be correct that they are similar to or orginating from some sort of Masonic tradition. I'm not too clear on what Rotary, Lions, Elk and Shriners etc are but I suspect I will probably have to join one when I get older. I always thought it was just an excuse for middle aged men to get together and drink beer and act juvenile while doing charity. Well, Carno, you got me curious so I looked it up. I was off (but not too far off) - here is the info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Columbus Last edited by jorgelito; 10-31-2006 at 01:00 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

10-31-2006, 11:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It's reverse racism. Our great great great grandparents owned slaves, our great great grandparents lynched blacks, our great grandparents wouldn't let blacks vote, our grandparents treated blacks like crap, our parents stole their music, and we're not sure what to do. I'm not racist. I've never owned slaves. I've never lynched anyone. I've never kept anyone from voting. I've never treated anyone differently because of race, gender (cept for dating, there I make a gender coice) or creed. I've not kept anyone down....and yet people like me are still expected to be apologists for the sins of our fathers. If there is racism, stamp it out. If there isn't racism, and you call it racism, it's still racism somehow! What a world we live in.

10-31-2006, 11:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Well, it sounds like they're doing the right things. The members apologized, the community is organizing a meeting to discuss the issues. I didn't think it was racist, perhaps at the most, in poor taste. Even the skeleton noose in the context (pirates) shouldn't have been a problem, but the party wasn't about pirates, it was a more..."urban" theme. While we may not think it's racist, apparently some people do. I think it isn't a bad thing to honor that and at the very least have some sort of dialogue. The wounds of racism are deep in this country, it will take some time to heal. And that's ok. On the other hand, it's easy to see how the BSU was offended, especially on a college campus environment. The few blacks on our campus were always going nuts and protesting something or other. They even went as far as accusing the university of being racist because there are so few blacks on campus. Same with the Latino students. I say, let them be and they will figure it out on their own eventually, let them say their peace.

10-31-2006, 11:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	It's ridiculous and it's stupid. People need to grow up and grow some thick skin. "hood" culture is RIPE for parody. Hell, it parodies itself! It thrives on its own absurdity. Flava of Love anyone? Nooses and skeletons (particularly ones with pirate hats) are VERY TRADITIONAL Halloween decorations. My fraternity held several Halloween parties and, wouldn't you know it, we had hung skeletons at every single one of them. We dressed out budget bucky skeleton up differently from year to year, but so it goes. Nothing about this is bizarre. Nothing about this is racist. Nothing about this is worthy of a lawsuit or is "deeply disturbing." Welcome to the 21st century, morons. There are more important things going on in the world than looking to be offended by a bunch of college students having a fun party. I can't wait to sue when a group of black students throw a party mocking the Backstreet Boys. If they have any voodoo heads on sticks, I'll be really offended because my ancestors were explorers who were beheaded by an African tribe. No. Really.

10-31-2006, 12:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	I think the three frat boys who apologized screwed up. They should have told the Black Student Union to get over itself. This is ridiculous.

10-31-2006, 01:13 PM	#16 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I find it boring and pretty silly, but I've seen it all before. Having attended way too many Duke University parties to remember, I do remember how people would mention they hoped that it wouldn't cause a shitstorm. Regardless of a shit storm or not, those were some damn good parties.

10-31-2006, 02:33 PM	#18 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	This is stupid. What made this an issue was the skeleton, which unless it had a friggin' afro wig on it, isn't racist. People are just scared of having the racist label on them. I don't think the skeleton decoration was intended to be racist, and you certainly can't prove it was. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

10-31-2006, 02:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	This is stupid. What made this an issue was the skeleton, which unless it had a friggin' afro wig on it, isn't racist. People are just scared of having the racist label on them. I don't think the skeleton decoration was intended to be racist, and you certainly can't prove it was. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

10-31-2006, 02:34 PM	#20 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	See, here's the problem. I went to UPenn, which is in the middle of West Philadelphia. It's a bad neighborhood. If you're stupid or unlucky, it's a dangerous neighborhood. You spend a lot of time dealing with people begging for money, with groups of people staring you down while you walk down the street, with local employees all but refusing to serve your scrawny-white-entitled-ass but GOD FORBID you respond to any of that, because then you're a racist. Ever been walking to class when a pack of thirteen year olds tear down the sidewalks on their bikes shouting epithets, catcalling and blasting music? Each of them doing their best to play chicken with every pedestrian so that someone can run into someone else and they can start trouble? Town and gown is a tough dynamic even under "ideal" circumstances. It's a lot tougher when there are racial differences and economic differences to exacerbate that. It's not fun to have a neighborhood look at you like YOU personally are the man who is keeping them from succeeding. And, as these poor bastards found out, there's not a damn thing you can do about it without people screaming "ENTITLED, INSENSITIVE RACISTS!" Sure, they didn't have a My Little Ponies party. They picked a theme that had something of an edge to it, probably because it's something that they encounter and think about every day, so they thought, on a night when everyone's dressing up and doing crazy stuff, they'd play on it and dress up and do crazy stuff. My fraternity had a hotel party where we had a room what was themed "Wiggers" to make fun of white kids who act all ghetto and we wore baggy clothes and drank malt liquor. Does that make us racist or culturally insensitive? The "victims of discrimination" can make people feel pretty victimized, too. My family, in its entirety, came to the United States after slavery ended. They were peasants in their countries of origin; some more distant relatives were serfs. They worked hard. They learned English. Their descendants are all professionals or are in academia. Why do I deserve to face daily hatred and scorn from the people around my school's community because of the simple fact that I'm white and academically successful? It's frustrating and, over four years (as you can tell), you can develop some pretty strong feelings about it. This party was an outlet for that feeling. Being suspended over it is absurd. The black student union of course has a right to protest if they're offended, but for the school president to feel "deeply distrubed" is stupid, as are any administartive and/or legal consequences. Last edited by Frosstbyte; 10-31-2006 at 02:57 PM.. Reason: Clarity

10-31-2006, 03:14 PM	#21 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Frostbyte: Let me see if I'm getting this right. It's ok to make fun of them because they are dicks to you? Also, please note the difference between individuals being dicks and a college-sponsored organization being dicks. Toaster: I don't think that the skeleton is all they are mad about. Did you miss that the whole party was a parody of urban black youths? Last edited by kutulu; 10-31-2006 at 03:27 PM..

10-31-2006, 03:25 PM	#22 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	As a side note, fraternities are not "college-sponsored." At best they're "college-recognized" and at worst "college-tolerated." They are not in any way spokesmen for the university. They're organized, exclusive groups of friends. In every group of friends I've ever been in, we made fun of people who were dicks to us. I'd be pretty shocked if you and everyone else here didn't. The black-face party by the KA Order is a good example of a problem. This party is not a problem. It's a joke. You don't have to attend. You don't have to laugh. They wanted to laugh about it with their friends. Everyone else is looking for trouble and ways to be offended and the school is looking to appease people who are overreacting. Last edited by Frosstbyte; 10-31-2006 at 03:30 PM..

10-31-2006, 03:31 PM	#23 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	frosstbyte: when were you at penn? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-31-2006, 03:41 PM	#25 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	"college-sponsored", "college-recognized", "college-tolerated" whatever, same difference. You have to recognize the difference between a couple of co-workers being dicks and a franchise of a company being dicks. You are drawing a comparison between you and your friends to a nationally organized group. There is a big difference.

10-31-2006, 04:04 PM	#26 (permalink)
Moskie Pure Chewing Satisfaction Location: can i use bbcode [i]here[/i]?	So for people who found this offensive: can you suggest a way to make fun of people like Flava Flav, who are begging to be mocked, without being racist? or are we not allowed to make fun him and the fashion trend of people like him, because he's black and majority of people who partake in these fasions are black? look, these people are making fun of a retarded fashion trend. nothing more. if you interpret that as being racist, then you're fishing for an argument when there should be none. __________________ Greetings and salutations.

10-31-2006, 04:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	I thought everyone knew this already: if you are white you are not allowed to say or do anything that could possibly be construed as anything other than apologism to any minority or you are a RACIST. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

10-31-2006, 04:27 PM	#30 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Exactly, people are fishing for arguments. They're looking to be offended. It's stupid to look for reasons to be offended. I can spend all day looking for things to piss me off, but it'll get really old really fast because something happens literally every second. It was a party poking fun at a culture that these kids-and lots of others, including people who are part of the culture-find entertaining and ridiculous. It has a little edge to it, but, at the end of the day, it's not overtly racist or hate-filled or violent or destructive. I bet you no less than 100 parties with similar themes happened over Halloween weekend. People pounced on this, so now it's a big deal. If they hadn't been looking to be offended by something, it would've just been another party that some people thought was offensive and didn't go to and some people thought was hilarious and relished every moment of it. Last edited by Frosstbyte; 10-31-2006 at 04:30 PM..

10-31-2006, 04:29 PM	#31 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	it wasn't prefaced by "dress like a poor black person". It was prefaced by dress in a style that happens to be popular with poor and rich people of every race, but typical of less affluent neighborhoods. Again, it's time for the Black Student Union and the NAACP to get over themselves.

10-31-2006, 04:32 PM	#32 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	I don't know - I just read the article in the OP. Based on what I've read about this and what's been revealed in the thread, I can easily see how the BSU would be upset, but I don't agree with the position of the University on this. I definately think the skeleton aspect is a situation where an offended party is seeing what they want to see. If it was the only Halloween decoration at the party, maybe...maybe I could see it...particularly if it didn't resemble a pirate (which apparently it did). I don't think the party was really the best idea, but I don't think they should be suspended for it. I guess I pretty much see this as a freedom of expression situation, and I think that encouraging kids to have a healthy respect for the freedom of expression is one of the best things about college. It's one of the only times that people get to experience it to that degree, and then the rest of their lives they have to work to determine how they can assimilate freedom of expression into their lives in the real world. In short, I'd guarantee that at least some of the members of this frat were/are either blatantly or socially racist - but I don't think the specifics of this situation warrant the reaction its receiving. edit: i just remembered that i had some friends who threw a "Trailer Park" party about a month ago. Everyone wear a fake mullet, women wear fake stuff to look like they're pregnant, drink bud light, etc. If that were college sponsors, would the WTU (white trash union) have legitimate reason to have the party shut down. Would the university care? What would the reaction to this party be if it were thrown by the BSU, or Alpha Phi Alpha? edit had to correct a their/they're issue. God, I'm one of those people... __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style Last edited by pig; 10-31-2006 at 04:36 PM..

10-31-2006, 04:33 PM	#33 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Some people just need to stop playing "victim" and get over themselves. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

10-31-2006, 05:01 PM	#35 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	forget it...... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-31-2006, 05:08 PM	#36 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	My inference from the available facts leads me to believe that given the option to ignore something they disliked or to make a big stink about something that some college students thought would be a good theme for a party, they decided to make a big stink about it. It's about picking battles. They chose this battle, and, from the facts I have, I can't imagine why they care that much. I have a very hard time believing these people are personally offended that some of their fellow students were making fun of grills and bling. It's far easier for me to believe they are looking for a fight or for some reason dislike this fraternity and were looking for a reason to give them grief.

10-31-2006, 05:36 PM	#38 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I can see why they might be offended, but there's really no way to put myself in their shoes and understand how they felt, so in the absence of any reason to think they were looking to be offended, I assume they genuinely were offended. Vocally opposing what you perceive to be prejudice is generally a good thing. It may have been an overreaction in this case, colored by previous tension, and I probably wouldn't have drawn the line where they did, but I'm not in their shoes. One person's opposing prejudice is another's overreacting to a small thing. I prefer to err on the side of courtesy. Sure it's a question of freedom of expression. On both ends. The frat is free to have the party themed this way, and the black student union is free to say they don't like that theme. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 10-31-2006 at 05:39 PM..

10-31-2006, 06:22 PM	#39 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	__________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

10-31-2006, 06:32 PM	#40 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	jorgelito, I knew axl rose would find some way to stay in the limelight. seriously, i'm don't think i'm poor white trash, but some could make an argument for the "hick redneck" part - but i don't really feel offended by the terms. Then again, I grew up in suburbia, so I'm not really at the far end of the hick thing. My cousins are. They might actually be offended to be called a hick. Interesting, I'll have to ask. gilda i agree totally - i think. if it were up to me, based on the limited amount of information i have about this one incident, i don't know that i'd take the actions that the university has. no question the bsu has the right to voice / file a complaint. i actually do think it would make a difference if the sponsoring frat had been a traditional black frat like alpha phi alpha, or if the sigma chi frat had thrown it together with a black frat. (i'd pay to see the guys from sigma chi approaching the alphas about that idea )its never really going to play well to have a bunch of white kids making fun of black culture, particularly in a city full of black people. i wonder what the reaction would have been if alpha phi alpha threw a trailer park party, and really took it to extremes of making fun of caricatures of white culture in the middle of a rural white area. i'd bet that wouldn't cause any problems /sarcasm __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style