10-03-2006, 08:08 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Banned
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Why I just can't respect the Amish...
First of all... if you're here to make commentary about the event that took place in the Amish school, you're in the wrong thread. I don't want that in here, because this isn't the thread for that.
Ok now... I'd like to first say that I've never actively disrespected the Amish. I may have taken a light jab at their culture here or there, but I actually tend to leave them alone and stay away from the jokes about them. Why do I feel like I should go easy on them when I'll joke on any other culture with no problem? I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because i'd rather let them be, because they've certainly never hurt anyone. But here's the thing... The human species is naturally supposed to grow (mentally) and learn more and more. As generations pass, each new generation is naturally inclined to pass on their knowledge, so that the next generation can take that knowledge and expand on it, creating greater understandings of the world around them and to ensure the survival of the species. So why is it that the Amish want to simply... stagnate? Now I did think to myself... what about small groups of people around the planet that are still in "tribes" or "villages", who have not themselves become industrialized? Well, I don't have an answer for that. Most likely, it's because there are so few people (relatively speaking) that the learning curve per generation isn't all that big. That, and many of the biggest advances in technology throughout history have taken place because of just one person's discovery, or a group's discovery, of something new. Here's the beef, though... The Amish, however, KNOW exactly what is out there. They may not know the extent to which technology has grown, but they know of electricity, of modern medicine, and of many of the basic things we don't even blink at that leave them awe-struck. So they know all of this is out there, and that all they have to do is ask and they'll all be a part of it. My thinking is that because they specifically refuse any change, I find it hard to respect that lifestyle choice. Shunning technology is one thing, but they specifically refuse any kind of change. Is it just me that has a problem with a culture whose purpose and continuing mission is "nothing changes"? Does anyone disagree with the notion that groups of people, cultures, are naturally inclined to growth in knowledge? If, then, a culture specifically says, "we will not change, we will not grow"... does that kind of intentional closed-mindedness make you think less of them, maybe? Or do you respect their desire to keep things to manual labor, to make life harder and worth more effort? |
10-03-2006, 08:34 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I have more tolerance for, and acceptance of, a religious sect or culture, as you described, that asks for nothing from the government and is not critical of those who dont share their beliefs than I do for some evangelical christian groups that condemn judges, politicians, social activists and anyone else they disagree with as "godless" and that want to instill their "values" on the country as a whole through the political process.
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10-03-2006, 08:36 PM | #3 (permalink) |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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Their refusal to use cars, technology, etc., is not based simply on a refusal to change. Their belief is that these things, including mirrors and cameras, by the way, are materials of vanity that serve no purpose in their lives and beliefs. (A splinter group, the Mennonites, use cars, but chrome is blackened.)
They believe they are here to serve God and by living a humble life, they are doing God's work and what God wants of them. They call us the 'English', speak old world German and don't have churches, but worship in designated homes. It's getting harder for the younger ones to avoid assimilation; some have left their families, a very hard decision as they become shunned. They don't necessarily eschew medicine and some technologies if there is no other way, they just don't make it a part of their life. They are a very peaceful, well organized community, they are not completely so cut off that they don't interact; in Lancaster County, PA, there's a plethora of Amish businesses, mainly fine crafts and it's a major tourist area, but when taking the backroads, a very beautiful, buccolic countryside abounds. I totally respect their lifestyle and sometimes wish we were closer to it. Look at us, stressed, wanting for things that do us no good, really, always wishing things for ourselves....selfish beings we are..when's the last time you picked up a hammer and saw and helped someone? The last time you planted your own food? We hop in our cars and think we can beat our time from the last trip out by 10 minutes, speed our way to wherever to do...what? Hell, maybe they have it right and we're wrong
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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em. |
10-03-2006, 08:40 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Tone.
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Analog, you might be interested to know that several Amish communities have fully equipped emergency centers, complete with telephones, computers, etc. The thought being that if they get into serious trouble somehow they can summon help.
It's not that they shun technology - they shun stuff they don't feel they need. And they're right. Despite their distinct lack of cars, phones, airplanes, and the internet, they manage to survive and live to ripe old ages. As long as someone doesn't infringe on other people's rights, I dont' care what they do, and I won't deny them respect just because they "stagnate" Also, the idea that the human species is "meant" to do anything is a logical fallacy. To say that we are meant to do something is to say that we were specifically designed by something to do it. Unless you're prepared to discount evolution, that's simply not true. |
10-03-2006, 08:55 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Loser
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I think it all depends on what your definition of advancement of growth is. Are we growing technologically, or spiritually, and if one and not the other, is this really a good thing.
What's more important, making a faster car that burns clean fuel, or becoming enlightened and understanding the universe we live in? I personally think the Amnish are extremeists, and are going about it all wrong, no question. However they don't feel this way, and honestly, when I look at all the stress the modern world causes, it would indeed be nice to embrace seomthing simpler. There really should be room for the past and the present, but I don't begrudge them their beliefs, though I do think they are misguided. |
10-03-2006, 08:55 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I have a lot of respect for a community that can stay so true to its principles in the face of the onslaught of modern culture. |
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10-03-2006, 08:59 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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As far as i can tell, the amish live a compeletely sustainable lifestyle and that's pretty respectable. See if you still can't respect the amish when the price of oil goes through the roof and you have to pay a whole lot more than you do now for everything while they remain mostly unaffected.
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10-03-2006, 09:02 PM | #8 (permalink) |
Loser
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Being someone who no longer drives thats not somethign I have to worry about. Though I live in china now and most walks or rides bikes. however since their are zero emission cnotrols the air hwere is much worse then in america, since more and more ppeople drive or ride motorbikes. The Amish are lucky here. Horse and buggy might be slow, but only by product there is good old fashioned manure, and they can even use that to grow more food. All and all, I wouldn't mind tryig that lifestyle out for a while, though I don't think it would suite me in the long term.
Consequently, the Amnish encourage their young people to go out into the world for a year when they come of age, if they choose to, and they are welcome to return. They want them to understand both the outside world, and see why they live as they do. A good practice of illuminating your beliefs by studynig their opposite, in a sense. While most young adults return, some do not, and this is fine and good by them, weeds out the believers from those who are not truly suited to live as Amnish. Some don't go on this little journey until they are into their mid, even late 20's, some never do. Good practice. I don't know how much longer the Amnish will hold on, hopefully a good long time, they act as a reminder to us of the past, simpler times, and perhaps teach some people that happiness can be found without all of the fancy doo dads we have now, or the constant striving for more. Oh and folks the Amnish use money just like us, but in ther own community they will just as often barter. Interesting people, misguided in many ways, but certainly interesting. Last edited by Kensei; 10-03-2006 at 09:11 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
10-03-2006, 09:18 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: You're kidding, right?
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There are people in the world who don't respect Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Those people might consider paving over Utah to be "progress."
Personally, I could do without the technology that subjects me to a barrage of information about quite a few people--Tom Cruise, Paris Hilton, Barry Manilow ... |
10-03-2006, 09:27 PM | #10 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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When the power goes out for a day, welcome to Amish country.
Well not quite, they still have the needed technology to survive and thrive without electricity, we mostly don't. There is nothing special about the modern age in terms of people, nothing special about change for change sake. I happen to enjoy the culture I'm part of for the most part, but its not a whole hell of a lot different from the life of a roman, we replaced the slaves with machines and industrialization, but the life outlook seems very much the same. The Amish lifestyle does not appeal to me, but I can see the appeal.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
10-03-2006, 10:50 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Banned
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Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.
This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing. I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning. |
10-04-2006, 03:04 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Loser
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Hmm, well I don't know if anyone has cared enough to do a study of the Amnish to see how many get cancer. Of course some do, that's just common sense, but how many I have no clue. Likely it is a lower numbr then us English of course.
As for fat amnish, I have seen some, but no, not a lot. They work for a living, and work hard, of course they weigh less. As to the rest, there ae not that many of them, so an overall comparison would be hard, if anyone even gave enough of a damn to do a study, which I think they don't. Personally, if I liked butter, churning it myself would not appeal to me. Like I said, mix the old and the new, but don't cling to a single extreme to the exception of secluding yourself from the rest of the world, that certainly is not good. Like I said, their goal to reach a closer state in relation to God is misguided and ass backwards, but thats their choice, I really don't give a hoot. I mostly feel sorry for the women. Like any cult, often times the women suffe the most. Amnish women have known no different, but their time is spent doing twice as much work as the man, usually more, doing work that today is considered two full time jobs. Imagine how hard their work is without the modern conveniences of today. The Amnish man has it easy compared to his women. Sad. |
10-04-2006, 04:27 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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So, if one buys into your unsubstantiated thinking on the neccessity for cultures to evolve to use cars and computers, you may be right. But since the premise you put forth is pretty shaky to begin with, I don't know how many people will agree with you.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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10-04-2006, 04:32 AM | #15 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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That's the New Order / Beachy Amish, which the more traditional Amish do not consider to be Amish at all. |
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10-04-2006, 04:48 AM | #16 (permalink) | |
“Wrong is right.”
Location: toronto
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You are taking for granted that the Western concept of "change"and "progress" are those most in line with human nature.
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10-04-2006, 05:05 AM | #17 (permalink) |
Mistress of Mayhem
Location: Canton, Ohio
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Why force someone to do what they dont want to do? Amish dont bother anyone but I have learned a lot from them by being nosy.
If the world goes to hell tomorrow THEY will be able to make it while we sit around mourning the loss of all this technology thatwe dont know how to live without. People spend too much time judging others and being closedminded these days.
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If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch. |
10-04-2006, 06:10 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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modern culture..... modern culture..... modern culture.... modern culture.... modern culture.... modern culture..... modern culture..... modern culture..... modern culture.... My point with all this? There is nothing advanced, evolved or superior about our culture. We have some great toys, we have made some great scientific advances, we have wealth far greater than any past civilization, but as a people, we are the same.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-04-2006, 07:14 AM | #19 (permalink) | ||
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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Futhermore, your assertion that they're rejecting our "nature of adapting to change" seems quite vague. "Adapting" to a change does not mean that you have accept that change. Some of the most succesful organisms (dictyostelium discoideum comes to mind) adapt best to change by waiting it out. When their environment becomes threatened, they eject a chemical called cAMP, merge together as one organism, expand into a stalk, and wait. They're not massively evolving, mutating, or developing sophisticated technology. They've got something that works - wait out the storm. In a way, I think the Amish do the same thing. If I were to be religious, I'd go with the Amish. It seems there are waaaaaaaaaaaay too many Christians, Catholics, Mormons, and the like who are only religious because it's the best of two choices. If there's a hell, they're good to go. If were to truly devote myself to an all-knowing diety, I'd have to go all-in. Drop the material possessions, drop the foolish devotion to modern idols, and really live the simple, Biblical life.
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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10-04-2006, 07:20 AM | #20 (permalink) | |||
Falling Angel
Location: L.A. L.A. land
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It would be different if their choices put their children at risk, say if they needed a life-saving medical procedure and the Amish parents refused to allow modern medicine to treat the child (or any other Amish person, for that matter), then I'd have a big problem with it. But I don't think they do things that way, do they? I can see though, that it may seem unfair in a way that they refuse to be part of, *contribute* to the society that protects them and provides for them. But I think some would say that they do contribute to society by being what they are. *shrug* To some they are a beacon of light in a dark industrial world. To others they are a living tourist attraction. Quote:
I am very glad that they have their kids go out into the world for a year (although I don't know that that's long enough, but whatever). It doesn't seem that people are forced into that lifestyle, but I would imagine that making the choice to join the rest of modern society and in a very real sense losing their family would be a terribly difficult one. Do they really get *shunned*? Something I've wondered about though--at some point in human history, the technologies they use now were the very cutting edge. So why chose *that* particular era? Why not go back to say, pre-columbus native American lifestyle?
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10-04-2006, 07:28 AM | #21 (permalink) | ||
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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Ustwo, that was pretty good. We're a strange bunch, for all our 'evolution'.... Quote:
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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em. Last edited by ngdawg; 10-04-2006 at 07:38 AM.. |
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10-04-2006, 10:05 AM | #22 (permalink) |
Fledgling Dead Head
Location: Clarkson U.
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I take no issue with the Amish. Its not something I would choose to do, but I see nothing wrong with that life style. In an odd sort of way I grew up similar to them.
We used technology, but my grandparents are just now getting electricity. Theyve had a generator for a while, but most of the lights, are gas lights, gravity fed water, gas refridgerator, and stove, etc etc. My father did much the same, we always had large gardens, and provided about half of our own food. The community we live in, rural farming, could and would easily join together to mutually provide almost everything we need, including horses, beef, pork, eggs, chicken etc etc should the world go to shit tomorrow. Granted, we use technology to do some of that, and for the most part I think we are doing it a better way than the Amish.... After Ustwo's photo montage... Sometimes I wonder if the price is worth it, for all the extraneous technology we have. The Amish have a nice life. Last edited by krwlz; 10-04-2006 at 10:09 AM.. |
10-04-2006, 10:56 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Tilted
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Amish faith requires them to influence their neighbors primarily by being excellent examples - moral, contented people and good neighbors. They will explain their beliefs if asked, but will not push them on you, and will not condemn you for believing differently. They try to actually live up to biblical teachings of forgiveness, charity, and non-violence.
A consequence of this is that they must be especially careful to be mindful of the biblical instruction to “be in the world, but not of the world.” They are perfectly aware that electricity is not sinful. But they also think it is increasingly difficult to keep their separateness the more tightly integrated they become into worldly society. Consequently, they draw necessarily arbitrary lines and say “Up to here is acceptable, past it is not.” It seems nonsensical that they will use generators to power electric machinery but will not connect to the grid, until you follow their reasoning. Then you realize it is perfectly logical, even if you don’t agree with them. Amish do not reject electricity; they reject being tied into the power grid. And they reject the grid not for technological reasons but for the implied integration into the rest of society. They are willing to do without the power grid (which they admit would be a convenience) because they see it as one example of a “camels nose under the tent” that will eventually lead to assimilation. One must admit that their willingness to come to a decision based on moral analysis and then actually follow through is admirable, even if you disagree with the particular line drawn. |
10-04-2006, 11:03 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: In a State of Denial
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10-04-2006, 11:28 AM | #26 (permalink) | |
A Storm Is Coming
Location: The Great White North
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There's a great book out there by Daniel Quinn called My Ishmael. It goes deep into tribal society and what has happened to the world since the development of "takers" and keeping things under lock and key. The subject was dealt with losely in the movie Instinct starring Cuba Gooding Jr. and Anthony Hopkins. It's a very good movie that was inspired by the book mentioned above. Your question really goes to the heart of the purpose/meaning of life. If you take issue with the Amish lifestyle I think you do have less respect for them. The same could apply in how they think of "modern" people. Some families have both parents work (making more money) while others live on less with just one parent working. Who's to say which is better? I think that comes down to the actual people living the life. Some people like the city and others like the country. Some like rock and some like country. To me the important thing is do you live a fullfiiled life and are you happy.
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If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy. |
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10-04-2006, 11:52 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Junkie
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It's ironic. The Amish shun technology and they are noble for it. A group of hippies decide to shun technology and live on a commune and we make fun of them for it.
I'm all for letting people do what they want but I'm with Analog on this. If everyone went the way of the Amish we'd still be thinking the world is flat. |
10-04-2006, 11:56 AM | #28 (permalink) |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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I have problems with the Amish lifestyle as well.
Because of their insular society, the have serious inbreeding issues. Lots of health and mental problems. They are incredibly unforgiving. Once you cross them or their ways, you don't get back. That goes for children that may choose a different way or whatnot. They shun all things modern, that means tech and ideas. Things that affect those outside such as some not wanting to use blinkers or reflective tape on their buggies. A resistance to modern farming ideas like contour farming that reduces erosion. This leads to a buildup of Nitrates, phosphates and particulate in the Chesapeake Bay watershed. They are very destructive environmentally. They, generally don't care for stewardship of the earth, as our existance here is actually a punishment, not a gift. They do not live by the 'giver' attitudes written about in Ishmael. Their treatment of their women and children is, IMO, cruel and inhumane. They are also incredibly rude and their children are the spawn of hell when they come across outsiders. It's a culture I hope dies out one way or another very soon. |
10-04-2006, 12:05 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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When a hippie commune lasts for several generations let me know, but its a poor anology on many levels. Now I dont know what the Amish teach about science, perhaps they do teach the world is flat (though I doubt it), but I'm trying to think how knowing the world is mostly round made me a better person and I can't come up with any way it did. Respect doesn't require agreement.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-04-2006, 12:43 PM | #30 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
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Thanks for the troll. Quote:
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10-04-2006, 12:59 PM | #31 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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Well, interestingly enough, the Amish are calling for forgiveness, something you hear rarely if at all among "modern" communities, especially religious ones.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/ami...ing/index.html I don't know. I am pretty impressed by that personally. In a way, it is more advanced than we are. |
10-04-2006, 01:09 PM | #32 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I assume that you'd not respect Christian Scientists for shunning medicine in the same vein?
Jews for not eating non kosher food? Islamics for dressing covered and also eating only halal food. Why be all up in someone else's business when their business doesn't affect you at all? In fact if they try very hard so that their business doesn't impact you in the slightest? I did see one time a family of Amish here in Times Square. I don't know what they were doing here or why, but they were ooohing and aahing.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 10-04-2006 at 01:11 PM.. |
10-04-2006, 01:12 PM | #33 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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But thanks for taking offense.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by ubertuber; 10-04-2006 at 01:31 PM.. |
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10-04-2006, 01:28 PM | #34 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Sounds real nice, Belt. Just make blanket accusations about an entire religion and hope for their demise.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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10-04-2006, 01:55 PM | #35 (permalink) |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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But what is wrong with what I've said?
They are inbred, and becoming moreso because they have been marrying between the same limited number of families for tens of generations. Their concept of shunning is well known. Once you do something that displeases them, they go out of their way to avoid you forever. I've 'worked' with many amish for a year when I was working with the Soil Conservancy in Lancaster. To say they were resistant to changing horrendous farming practices is an understatement. With few exeptions they won't even listen to you. Their women have little rights. Are forced wrap themselves and cloister almost as bad as Burkha'd muslim women. Their opinions are discounted out of hand, they have no say in the direction of their family or community. Husband is master. They treat human life with little regard. I read in the Lancaster New Era every month or so of a father who sent his young son into a thresher to clean out a jam and then closed the bin and went to work, forgetting about the child inside. Gruesome deaths like that are common. Children should not be used as such in heavy farm machinery. They see no need for English courtesies. Their lives are purposefully dour. Their children, because they are so different are treated badly by 'our' children. In addition to that, they see our kids living bright, carefree lives in comparision. This makes the kids pretty hardened against us. You find the occasional nail in a board near amish communities on the road. And groups of kids occasionally throw things at lonely passing cars. I'm not saying this all second hand. This is all my own experience with the community. I don't want them to die off, just to assimilate some with society. They need to face reality like the mennonites have. |
10-04-2006, 02:26 PM | #36 (permalink) |
Artist of Life
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I don't like the idea of close-mindedness, period. However, I do not think that is something that all Amish are. Limited schooling, and the shunning of technology does not mean there is no growth. Some of our most brilliant minds dropped out of highschool, or had little schooling. "School" does not equal "Learning."
The Amish may not apply their knowledge in terms of advancement, but we have not found advancement to be a necessity yet. In fact, advancement has brought alot of suffering, polarization, and death with it's benefits. Either way, they are their own society. |
10-04-2006, 03:52 PM | #37 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||
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10-04-2006, 04:32 PM | #38 (permalink) | |
Loser
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As for suffering, sorry, thats always been there to. Honestly, you talk as if tech is the devil. Is is a two edged sword, like anything else. You sound like an absolutist. If you don't wish to sound this way, qualify your statements with some kind of positive, instead of just focusing on the negative. No, school doe's not "necessarily" equal learning, but is does more often then not equal learning. Let's not get so focused on the enlightened Amnish and their grandiose social experimnt that we don't see the forest for the trees. They are indeed harmful to the environment with their oudates farming practices. They do for the most part treat their women as second class citizens, and they do work there kids in ways that break a lot of the "outside" worlds child labor laws. Lets get real here, there are better ways to live once you get off of the whole starry eyes moonbeam profound philosophical view of their whole return to earth and nature lifestyle. Oh yes, and if you ask better for who then I say gimmie a break and stop splitting hairs, better for them if they knew any better, and certanly better for their kids. |
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10-04-2006, 04:40 PM | #39 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Sorry Kensei, but polarization within a given civilizaion tends to grow over time. It usually reaches a pinnacle right as the ciuvilization is about to fall. Don't belive me? Read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Also, Ch'i never said that polarization is new. He said that it comes with advancement, which is true. Let's avoid Strawman arguments, as they slow down the discussion.
*Remember*, we are not talking about all time. The Amish are only a few hundred years old, not unlike our own civilization. |
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amish, respect |
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