Why I just can't respect the Amish... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 10-03-2006, 08:08 PM

First of all... if you're here to make commentary about the event that took place in the Amish school, you're in the wrong thread. I don't want that in here, because this isn't the thread for that.

Ok now...

I'd like to first say that I've never actively disrespected the Amish. I may have taken a light jab at their culture here or there, but I actually tend to leave them alone and stay away from the jokes about them. Why do I feel like I should go easy on them when I'll joke on any other culture with no problem? I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because i'd rather let them be, because they've certainly never hurt anyone.

But here's the thing...

The human species is naturally supposed to grow (mentally) and learn more and more. As generations pass, each new generation is naturally inclined to pass on their knowledge, so that the next generation can take that knowledge and expand on it, creating greater understandings of the world around them and to ensure the survival of the species.

So why is it that the Amish want to simply... stagnate?

Now I did think to myself... what about small groups of people around the planet that are still in "tribes" or "villages", who have not themselves become industrialized? Well, I don't have an answer for that. Most likely, it's because there are so few people (relatively speaking) that the learning curve per generation isn't all that big. That, and many of the biggest advances in technology throughout history have taken place because of just one person's discovery, or a group's discovery, of something new.

Here's the beef, though...

The Amish, however, KNOW exactly what is out there. They may not know the extent to which technology has grown, but they know of electricity, of modern medicine, and of many of the basic things we don't even blink at that leave them awe-struck. So they know all of this is out there, and that all they have to do is ask and they'll all be a part of it.

My thinking is that because they specifically refuse any change, I find it hard to respect that lifestyle choice. Shunning technology is one thing, but they specifically refuse any kind of change.

Is it just me that has a problem with a culture whose purpose and continuing mission is "nothing changes"?

Does anyone disagree with the notion that groups of people, cultures, are naturally inclined to growth in knowledge? If, then, a culture specifically says, "we will not change, we will not grow"... does that kind of intentional closed-mindedness make you think less of them, maybe? Or do you respect their desire to keep things to manual labor, to make life harder and worth more effort?

dc_dux · 10-03-2006, 08:34 PM

I have more tolerance for, and acceptance of, a religious sect or culture, as you described, that asks for nothing from the government and is not critical of those who dont share their beliefs than I do for some evangelical christian groups that condemn judges, politicians, social activists and anyone else they disagree with as "godless" and that want to instill their "values" on the country as a whole through the political process.

ngdawg · 10-03-2006, 08:36 PM

Their refusal to use cars, technology, etc., is not based simply on a refusal to change. Their belief is that these things, including mirrors and cameras, by the way, are materials of vanity that serve no purpose in their lives and beliefs. (A splinter group, the Mennonites, use cars, but chrome is blackened.)
They believe they are here to serve God and by living a humble life, they are doing God's work and what God wants of them.
They call us the 'English', speak old world German and don't have churches, but worship in designated homes.
It's getting harder for the younger ones to avoid assimilation; some have left their families, a very hard decision as they become shunned.
They don't necessarily eschew medicine and some technologies if there is no other way, they just don't make it a part of their life.
They are a very peaceful, well organized community, they are not completely so cut off that they don't interact; in Lancaster County, PA, there's a plethora of Amish businesses, mainly fine crafts and it's a major tourist area, but when taking the backroads, a very beautiful, buccolic countryside abounds.
I totally respect their lifestyle and sometimes wish we were closer to it. Look at us, stressed, wanting for things that do us no good, really, always wishing things for ourselves....selfish beings we are..when's the last time you picked up a hammer and saw and helped someone? The last time you planted your own food?
We hop in our cars and think we can beat our time from the last trip out by 10 minutes, speed our way to wherever to do...what? Hell, maybe they have it right and we're wrong

shakran · 10-03-2006, 08:40 PM

Analog, you might be interested to know that several Amish communities have fully equipped emergency centers, complete with telephones, computers, etc. The thought being that if they get into serious trouble somehow they can summon help.

It's not that they shun technology - they shun stuff they don't feel they need. And they're right. Despite their distinct lack of cars, phones, airplanes, and the internet, they manage to survive and live to ripe old ages.

As long as someone doesn't infringe on other people's rights, I dont' care what they do, and I won't deny them respect just because they "stagnate"

Also, the idea that the human species is "meant" to do anything is a logical fallacy. To say that we are meant to do something is to say that we were specifically designed by something to do it. Unless you're prepared to discount evolution, that's simply not true.

Kensei · 10-03-2006, 08:55 PM

I think it all depends on what your definition of advancement of growth is. Are we growing technologically, or spiritually, and if one and not the other, is this really a good thing.

What's more important, making a faster car that burns clean fuel, or becoming enlightened and understanding the universe we live in?

I personally think the Amnish are extremeists, and are going about it all wrong, no question. However they don't feel this way, and honestly, when I look at all the stress the modern world causes, it would indeed be nice to embrace seomthing simpler. There really should be room for the past and the present, but I don't begrudge them their beliefs, though I do think they are misguided.

ratbastid · 10-03-2006, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Analog, you might be interested to know that several Amish communities have fully equipped emergency centers, complete with telephones, computers, etc. The thought being that if they get into serious trouble somehow they can summon help.

Many Amish actually carry cell phones. It's not the technology that's the problem, it's the effect that the technology has on their faith and their society. They see the cell phone as a tool for communication and connectedness.

I have a lot of respect for a community that can stay so true to its principles in the face of the onslaught of modern culture.

filtherton · 10-03-2006, 08:59 PM

As far as i can tell, the amish live a compeletely sustainable lifestyle and that's pretty respectable. See if you still can't respect the amish when the price of oil goes through the roof and you have to pay a whole lot more than you do now for everything while they remain mostly unaffected.

Kensei · 10-03-2006, 09:02 PM

Being someone who no longer drives thats not somethign I have to worry about. Though I live in china now and most walks or rides bikes. however since their are zero emission cnotrols the air hwere is much worse then in america, since more and more ppeople drive or ride motorbikes. The Amish are lucky here. Horse and buggy might be slow, but only by product there is good old fashioned manure, and they can even use that to grow more food. All and all, I wouldn't mind tryig that lifestyle out for a while, though I don't think it would suite me in the long term.

Consequently, the Amnish encourage their young people to go out into the world for a year when they come of age, if they choose to, and they are welcome to return. They want them to understand both the outside world, and see why they live as they do. A good practice of illuminating your beliefs by studynig their opposite, in a sense. While most young adults return, some do not, and this is fine and good by them, weeds out the believers from those who are not truly suited to live as Amnish. Some don't go on this little journey until they are into their mid, even late 20's, some never do. Good practice.

I don't know how much longer the Amnish will hold on, hopefully a good long time, they act as a reminder to us of the past, simpler times, and perhaps teach some people that happiness can be found without all of the fancy doo dads we have now, or the constant striving for more.

Oh and folks the Amnish use money just like us, but in ther own community they will just as often barter. Interesting people, misguided in many ways, but certainly interesting.

_God_ · 10-03-2006, 09:18 PM

There are people in the world who don't respect Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Those people might consider paving over Utah to be "progress."

Personally, I could do without the technology that subjects me to a barrage of information about quite a few people--Tom Cruise, Paris Hilton, Barry Manilow ...

Ustwo · 10-03-2006, 09:27 PM

When the power goes out for a day, welcome to Amish country.

Well not quite, they still have the needed technology to survive and thrive without electricity, we mostly don't.

There is nothing special about the modern age in terms of people, nothing special about change for change sake. I happen to enjoy the culture I'm part of for the most part, but its not a whole hell of a lot different from the life of a roman, we replaced the slaves with machines and industrialization, but the life outlook seems very much the same.

The Amish lifestyle does not appeal to me, but I can see the appeal.

Willravel · 10-03-2006, 09:34 PM

How often do Amish get cancer?
How many Amish people are obese?
How many Amish people die from heart disease?
How much carbon monoxide do the Amish release into the atmosphere?

analog · 10-03-2006, 10:50 PM

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing.

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

Kensei · 10-04-2006, 03:04 AM

Hmm, well I don't know if anyone has cared enough to do a study of the Amnish to see how many get cancer. Of course some do, that's just common sense, but how many I have no clue. Likely it is a lower numbr then us English of course.

As for fat amnish, I have seen some, but no, not a lot. They work for a living, and work hard, of course they weigh less.

As to the rest, there ae not that many of them, so an overall comparison would be hard, if anyone even gave enough of a damn to do a study, which I think they don't.

Personally, if I liked butter, churning it myself would not appeal to me. Like I said, mix the old and the new, but don't cling to a single extreme to the exception of secluding yourself from the rest of the world, that certainly is not good. Like I said, their goal to reach a closer state in relation to God is misguided and ass backwards, but thats their choice, I really don't give a hoot.

I mostly feel sorry for the women. Like any cult, often times the women suffe the most. Amnish women have known no different, but their time is spent doing twice as much work as the man, usually more, doing work that today is considered two full time jobs. Imagine how hard their work is without the modern conveniences of today. The Amnish man has it easy compared to his women. Sad.

highthief · 10-04-2006, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

I think you are making an assumption that cultural growth and societal learning are somehow the whole point of human existence.

So, if one buys into your unsubstantiated thinking on the neccessity for cultures to evolve to use cars and computers, you may be right. But since the premise you put forth is pretty shaky to begin with, I don't know how many people will agree with you.

shakran · 10-04-2006, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Many Amish actually carry cell phones. It's not the technology that's the problem, it's the effect that the technology has on their faith and their society. They see the cell phone as a tool for communication and connectedness.

I have a lot of respect for a community that can stay so true to its principles in the face of the onslaught of modern culture.

That's the New Order / Beachy Amish, which the more traditional Amish do not consider to be Amish at all.

aberkok · 10-04-2006, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

...

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

Your idea of progress is vague. Many people who have responded have not tried to make you respect them, but to throw into relief your concept of what "progress" is. It would be helpful if you gave us a bit more of a detailed idea of how you find the Amish to be "stagnant."

You are taking for granted that the Western concept of "change"and "progress" are those most in line with human nature.

Lady Sage · 10-04-2006, 05:05 AM

Why force someone to do what they dont want to do? Amish dont bother anyone but I have learned a lot from them by being nosy.

If the world goes to hell tomorrow THEY will be able to make it while we sit around mourning the loss of all this technology thatwe dont know how to live without.

People spend too much time judging others and being closedminded these days.

Ustwo · 10-04-2006, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing.

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

I tried to think of a good way to answer this. I decided that a photo montage was in order.....

modern culture.....

modern culture....

modern culture.....

modern culture....

My point with all this?

There is nothing advanced, evolved or superior about our culture. We have some great toys, we have made some great scientific advances, we have wealth far greater than any past civilization, but as a people, we are the same.

Jinn · 10-04-2006, 07:14 AM

Quote:

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

And the OP:

Quote:

The human species is naturally supposed to grow (mentally) and learn more and more. As generations pass, each new generation is naturally inclined to pass on their knowledge, so that the next generation can take that knowledge and expand on it, creating greater understandings of the world around them and to ensure the survival of the species.

If you'll notice, neither of these require advanced technology. Each generation passes on it's knowledge to the next very well in Amish culture, because the schools are notoriously good and the parents play a very active role. Some would argue that the dissemination of knowledge from parents to children in Amish culture is much better than 'modern culture' and in that respect they're "growing" more than we are.

Futhermore, your assertion that they're rejecting our "nature of adapting to change" seems quite vague. "Adapting" to a change does not mean that you have accept that change. Some of the most succesful organisms (dictyostelium discoideum comes to mind) adapt best to change by waiting it out. When their environment becomes threatened, they eject a chemical called cAMP, merge together as one organism, expand into a stalk, and wait. They're not massively evolving, mutating, or developing sophisticated technology. They've got something that works - wait out the storm. In a way, I think the Amish do the same thing.

If I were to be religious, I'd go with the Amish. It seems there are waaaaaaaaaaaay too many Christians, Catholics, Mormons, and the like who are only religious because it's the best of two choices. If there's a hell, they're good to go. If were to truly devote myself to an all-knowing diety, I'd have to go all-in. Drop the material possessions, drop the foolish devotion to modern idols, and really live the simple, Biblical life.

Sultana · 10-04-2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

*snip* The human species is naturally supposed to grow (mentally) and learn more and more. As generations pass, each new generation is naturally inclined to pass on their knowledge, so that the next generation can take that knowledge and expand on it, creating greater understandings of the world around them and to ensure the survival of the species.

So why is it that the Amish want to simply... stagnate?

I'm interpreting this as you mean that in a technological way. If you mean in a more general way, how do we know that the Amish aren't expanding upon and passing on their *knowledge*?

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

*snip* The Amish, however, KNOW exactly what is out there. They may not know the extent to which technology has grown, but they know of electricity, of modern medicine, and of many of the basic things we don't even blink at that leave them awe-struck. So they know all of this is out there, and that all they have to do is ask and they'll all be a part of it.

My thinking is that because they specifically refuse any change, I find it hard to respect that lifestyle choice. Shunning technology is one thing, but they specifically refuse any kind of change.

As others have said here, they know about it, they just don't want it. You and I both don't want kids, yet I know I am sometimes inundated with judgement, both direct and implied, regarding my choice and resultant lifestyle. I see this as a similar decision.

It would be different if their choices put their children at risk, say if they needed a life-saving medical procedure and the Amish parents refused to allow modern medicine to treat the child (or any other Amish person, for that matter), then I'd have a big problem with it. But I don't think they do things that way, do they?

I can see though, that it may seem unfair in a way that they refuse to be part of, *contribute* to the society that protects them and provides for them. But I think some would say that they do contribute to society by being what they are. *shrug* To some they are a beacon of light in a dark industrial world. To others they are a living tourist attraction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

*snip* Does anyone disagree with the notion that groups of people, cultures, are naturally inclined to growth in knowledge? If, then, a culture specifically says, "we will not change, we will not grow"... does that kind of intentional closed-mindedness make you think less of them, maybe? Or do you respect their desire to keep things to manual labor, to make life harder and worth more effort?

Once again, just because they aren't growing their technology doesn't mean that they aren't growing in knowledge. And I don't think that making a choice to live a certain way necessarily indicates "closed-mindedness". It's not a choice I would make, but it's a lot better in my mind than other lifestyle choices that are far more common today.

I am very glad that they have their kids go out into the world for a year (although I don't know that that's long enough, but whatever). It doesn't seem that people are forced into that lifestyle, but I would imagine that making the choice to join the rest of modern society and in a very real sense losing their family would be a terribly difficult one. Do they really get *shunned*?

Something I've wondered about though--at some point in human history, the technologies they use now were the very cutting edge. So why chose *that* particular era? Why not go back to say, pre-columbus native American lifestyle?

ngdawg · 10-04-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing.

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

There's nothing to say they have limited their own growth and learning. A better question, from the other side is, why must they accept and adapt if their culture works for them? You live in a southern state, correct? Have you assimilated and acquired the accent, a love of NASCAR and hunting? Go to a Baptist church? They may not rely on the conveniences of 'modern life', but they haven't ignored them either.
Ustwo, that was pretty good. We're a strange bunch, for all our 'evolution'....

Quote:

Do they really get *shunned*?

Yes, those that chose to 'join the english world' do so with the knowledge that they are no longer a part of the family they left. But, judging by the size of the community still, I'd wager it happens rarely.

krwlz · 10-04-2006, 10:05 AM

I take no issue with the Amish. Its not something I would choose to do, but I see nothing wrong with that life style. In an odd sort of way I grew up similar to them.

We used technology, but my grandparents are just now getting electricity. Theyve had a generator for a while, but most of the lights, are gas lights, gravity fed water, gas refridgerator, and stove, etc etc.

My father did much the same, we always had large gardens, and provided about half of our own food. The community we live in, rural farming, could and would easily join together to mutually provide almost everything we need, including horses, beef, pork, eggs, chicken etc etc should the world go to shit tomorrow.

Granted, we use technology to do some of that, and for the most part I think we are doing it a better way than the Amish....

After Ustwo's photo montage... Sometimes I wonder if the price is worth it, for all the extraneous technology we have. The Amish have a nice life.

ratbastid · 10-04-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

That's the New Order / Beachy Amish, which the more traditional Amish do not consider to be Amish at all.

... Because they wear flip-flops, right?

FatFreeGoodness · 10-04-2006, 10:56 AM

Amish faith requires them to influence their neighbors primarily by being excellent examples - moral, contented people and good neighbors. They will explain their beliefs if asked, but will not push them on you, and will not condemn you for believing differently. They try to actually live up to biblical teachings of forgiveness, charity, and non-violence.

A consequence of this is that they must be especially careful to be mindful of the biblical instruction to “be in the world, but not of the world.” They are perfectly aware that electricity is not sinful. But they also think it is increasingly difficult to keep their separateness the more tightly integrated they become into worldly society. Consequently, they draw necessarily arbitrary lines and say “Up to here is acceptable, past it is not.”

It seems nonsensical that they will use generators to power electric machinery but will not connect to the grid, until you follow their reasoning. Then you realize it is perfectly logical, even if you don’t agree with them. Amish do not reject electricity; they reject being tied into the power grid. And they reject the grid not for technological reasons but for the implied integration into the rest of society. They are willing to do without the power grid (which they admit would be a convenience) because they see it as one example of a “camels nose under the tent” that will eventually lead to assimilation.

One must admit that their willingness to come to a decision based on moral analysis and then actually follow through is admirable, even if you disagree with the particular line drawn.

Val_1 · 10-04-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that.

I think that's what you're missing. it IS about their religion and beliefs. It may seem "stagnant" to you because they don't hold the same things dear as you do. The Amish have changed in ways over the years, but they are hard to categorize because the changes are different from community to community. They discuss technologies and decide what they will and won't allow in their own community. Some communities will allow telephones, but usually not in the house so an not to discourage face to face communication. Some allow electricity, though usually stored in 12 volt batteries instead of power lines so as not to encourage laziness. They are a bit odd, but I "get" them more than I get evangelical christians that try to push their viewpoints on others.

thingstodo · 10-04-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing.

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

I think this has more to do with your definition of growth and what people/cultures are "supposed" to do.

There's a great book out there by Daniel Quinn called My Ishmael. It goes deep into tribal society and what has happened to the world since the development of "takers" and keeping things under lock and key. The subject was dealt with losely in the movie Instinct starring Cuba Gooding Jr. and Anthony Hopkins. It's a very good movie that was inspired by the book mentioned above.

Your question really goes to the heart of the purpose/meaning of life. If you take issue with the Amish lifestyle I think you do have less respect for them. The same could apply in how they think of "modern" people.

Some families have both parents work (making more money) while others live on less with just one parent working. Who's to say which is better? I think that comes down to the actual people living the life. Some people like the city and others like the country. Some like rock and some like country.

To me the important thing is do you live a fullfiiled life and are you happy.

kutulu · 10-04-2006, 11:52 AM

It's ironic. The Amish shun technology and they are noble for it. A group of hippies decide to shun technology and live on a commune and we make fun of them for it.

I'm all for letting people do what they want but I'm with Analog on this. If everyone went the way of the Amish we'd still be thinking the world is flat.

Superbelt · 10-04-2006, 11:56 AM

I have problems with the Amish lifestyle as well.

Because of their insular society, the have serious inbreeding issues. Lots of health and mental problems.

They are incredibly unforgiving. Once you cross them or their ways, you don't get back. That goes for children that may choose a different way or whatnot.

They shun all things modern, that means tech and ideas. Things that affect those outside such as some not wanting to use blinkers or reflective tape on their buggies. A resistance to modern farming ideas like contour farming that reduces erosion. This leads to a buildup of Nitrates, phosphates and particulate in the Chesapeake Bay watershed.
They are very destructive environmentally. They, generally don't care for stewardship of the earth, as our existance here is actually a punishment, not a gift. They do not live by the 'giver' attitudes written about in Ishmael.

Their treatment of their women and children is, IMO, cruel and inhumane.

They are also incredibly rude and their children are the spawn of hell when they come across outsiders.

It's a culture I hope dies out one way or another very soon.

Ustwo · 10-04-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

It's ironic. The Amish shun technology and they are noble for it. A group of hippies decide to shun technology and live on a commune and we make fun of them for it.

I'm all for letting people do what they want but I'm with Analog on this. If everyone went the way of the Amish we'd still be thinking the world is flat.

Since when is a VW microbus shunning technology?

When a hippie commune lasts for several generations let me know, but its a poor anology on many levels.

Now I dont know what the Amish teach about science, perhaps they do teach the world is flat (though I doubt it), but I'm trying to think how knowing the world is mostly round made me a better person and I can't come up with any way it did.

Respect doesn't require agreement.

kutulu · 10-04-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Since when is a VW microbus shunning technology?

When a hippie commune lasts for several generations let me know, but its a poor anology on many levels.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96711&page=1
Thanks for the troll.

Quote:

Now I dont know what the Amish teach about science, perhaps they do teach the world is flat (though I doubt it), but I'm trying to think how knowing the world is mostly round made me a better person and I can't come up with any way it did.

They typically stop education after the 8th grade. If the law requires schooling up to a certain age, they will usually repeat the 8th grade until they reach that age.

jorgelito · 10-04-2006, 12:59 PM

Well, interestingly enough, the Amish are calling for forgiveness, something you hear rarely if at all among "modern" communities, especially religious ones.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/ami...ing/index.html

I don't know. I am pretty impressed by that personally. In a way, it is more advanced than we are.

Cynthetiq · 10-04-2006, 01:09 PM

I assume that you'd not respect Christian Scientists for shunning medicine in the same vein?

Jews for not eating non kosher food?

Islamics for dressing covered and also eating only halal food.

Why be all up in someone else's business when their business doesn't affect you at all? In fact if they try very hard so that their business doesn't impact you in the slightest?

I did see one time a family of Amish here in Times Square. I don't know what they were doing here or why, but they were ooohing and aahing.

Ustwo · 10-04-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96711&page=1
Thanks for the troll.

Comments that weren't worthy of the space they were posted in.

*edited*

Quote:

How to become a resident on The Farm

The following is an outline of the procedure for becoming a resident.

One of the first steps involves visiting us often and getting to know as many members as possible. Some people have taken this step by moving near The Farm and visiting over a period of time. There are conferences and other social events that take place here that offer good opportunities to visit.

The most challenging aspects of relocating here have to do with career opportunities in the vicinity and the availability of adequate housing within the community. We have committees in place to help with financial planning and help determine what living arrangements may work as that stage approaches. We appreciate your interest in community and ours in particular. If you wish to contact the Membership Committee, write to us at the above address or call Vickie Montagne at the Welcome Center (931-964-3574).

Membership Committee Procedure To become a Resident
1. Fulfillment of several personal visits to The Farm in order to become acquainted with the community and individual members within the community.
2. The applicant(s) arranges a personal interview with a Membership Committee member stating their desire to move to the community. Following consultation with the rest of the committee, this request is encouraged or denied.
3. The applicant(s) write a letter of introduction and intent to the community. This letter includes a biographical sketch, method of livelihood, and their vision of what they hope to contribute to the community. Upon receipt of this letter, a file will be started on the applicant. Copies of this letter will be posted by the secretary at the Farm Post Office for one month and published in the Free Press for two weeks.
4. Following the publication of the introduction.notice, the applicant(s) continues to visit the community and attend community functions. At this time they need to find a sponsor who will vouch for their character and help integrate them into the community.
5. The applicant and their sponsor formally meets with the Membership Committee and applies for residency.
6. The committee votes on whether or not to continue the application process. If approved, the applicant is sent a residency packet to be completed, which contains: Application Form Financial disclosure form TRW information for credit check Medical history sheet Sample residency contract Notice of $25.00 processing fee ($10 for a young adult 18-23) The application should be returned within one month.
7. Upon receipt of completed forms and application fee, applicant will be given: Letter of acknowledgement from the secretary. Original residency papers filed in applicant's folder Financial forms given to the Finance Committee for review and clarification.
8. Upon return of financial forms from the Finance Committee, the application is reviewed. The applicant meets with the committee or has a telephone conference with committee members to answer any unresolved questions. When all issues are resolved, the applicant will be approved for residency.
9. Prior to moving here the residency contract should be sent and returned signed along with the 1st and 12th months rent.

Extended stay visitors and provisional members are asked to find a member of the community to be their sponsor. Asponsor: must be a resident full member.

Responsibilities of sponsorship:
1. Will take an active role in notifying new resident(s) of all community meetings and gatherings, and facilitate participation.
2. Will act as an interface with the community or individual members should the need arise.
3. Will take an active role in seeing that the resident is gainfully employed and paying their community dues.

I'm glad hippies in a commune have a application fee. A planned community is a far cry from a hippie commune, its more like an exclusive social club where you have to be accepted by the community before you can join based on your character. Most hippie communes had issues with sanitation and health risk, dirty hippie is more than a stereotype.

But thanks for taking offense.

highthief · 10-04-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

I have problems with the Amish lifestyle as well.

Because of their insular society, the have serious inbreeding issues. Lots of health and mental problems.

They are incredibly unforgiving. Once you cross them or their ways, you don't get back. That goes for children that may choose a different way or whatnot.

They shun all things modern, that means tech and ideas. Things that affect those outside such as some not wanting to use blinkers or reflective tape on their buggies. A resistance to modern farming ideas like contour farming that reduces erosion. This leads to a buildup of Nitrates, phosphates and particulate in the Chesapeake Bay watershed.
They are very destructive environmentally. They, generally don't care for stewardship of the earth, as our existance here is actually a punishment, not a gift. They do not live by the 'giver' attitudes written about in Ishmael.

Their treatment of their women and children is, IMO, cruel and inhumane.

They are also incredibly rude and their children are the spawn of hell when they come across outsiders.

It's a culture I hope dies out one way or another very soon.

And all Jews are shylocks, and Hitler should have finished the job.

Sounds real nice, Belt. Just make blanket accusations about an entire religion and hope for their demise.

Superbelt · 10-04-2006, 01:55 PM

But what is wrong with what I've said?

They are inbred, and becoming moreso because they have been marrying between the same limited number of families for tens of generations.

Their concept of shunning is well known. Once you do something that displeases them, they go out of their way to avoid you forever.

I've 'worked' with many amish for a year when I was working with the Soil Conservancy in Lancaster. To say they were resistant to changing horrendous farming practices is an understatement. With few exeptions they won't even listen to you.

Their women have little rights. Are forced wrap themselves and cloister almost as bad as Burkha'd muslim women. Their opinions are discounted out of hand, they have no say in the direction of their family or community. Husband is master.

They treat human life with little regard. I read in the Lancaster New Era every month or so of a father who sent his young son into a thresher to clean out a jam and then closed the bin and went to work, forgetting about the child inside. Gruesome deaths like that are common. Children should not be used as such in heavy farm machinery.

They see no need for English courtesies. Their lives are purposefully dour. Their children, because they are so different are treated badly by 'our' children. In addition to that, they see our kids living bright, carefree lives in comparision. This makes the kids pretty hardened against us.
You find the occasional nail in a board near amish communities on the road. And groups of kids occasionally throw things at lonely passing cars.

I'm not saying this all second hand. This is all my own experience with the community.

I don't want them to die off, just to assimilate some with society. They need to face reality like the mennonites have.

Ch'i · 10-04-2006, 02:26 PM

I don't like the idea of close-mindedness, period. However, I do not think that is something that all Amish are. Limited schooling, and the shunning of technology does not mean there is no growth. Some of our most brilliant minds dropped out of highschool, or had little schooling. "School" does not equal "Learning."
The Amish may not apply their knowledge in terms of advancement, but we have not found advancement to be a necessity yet. In fact, advancement has brought alot of suffering, polarization, and death with it's benefits. Either way, they are their own society.

shakran · 10-04-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

They are inbred, and becoming moreso because they have been marrying between the same limited number of families for tens of generations.

1) recent studies have shown that inbreeding isn't as dire as you might think. After all, royalty has been inbreeding for hundreds of years in Europe and I don't see any of them walking around with 3 arms.

2) This effects you how?

Quote:

Their concept of shunning is well known. Once you do something that displeases them, they go out of their way to avoid you forever.

This effects you how?

Quote:

I've 'worked' with many amish for a year when I was working with the Soil Conservancy in Lancaster. To say they were resistant to changing horrendous farming practices is an understatement. With few exeptions they won't even listen to you.

This effects you how? In reality it's only going to effect THEIR fields. And since they aren't looking for the mega-yields the corporate farmer wants, they're not gonna give a damn.

Quote:

Their women have little rights. Are forced wrap themselves and cloister almost as bad as Burkha'd muslim women.

1) Bullshit. They wear dresses. When they go outside they wear bonnets. No face-hiding hoods, and if you see their wrist or their ankle, no one gets mad.

2) This effects you how?

Quote:

Their opinions are discounted out of hand, they have no say in the direction of their family or community. Husband is master.

This effects you how?

Quote:

They treat human life with little regard.

Yes we all saw that the other day as they cried and comforted each other after the kids were shot.

Quote:

I read in the Lancaster New Era every month or so of a father who sent his young son into a thresher to clean out a jam and then closed the bin and went to work, forgetting about the child inside.

Idiotic examples that have plenty of parallels in other societies. Remember a couple of years ago when dads were leaving little kids to cook to death in the car all day? Guess that means regular American society has little regard for human life too.

Quote:

Gruesome deaths like that are common. Children should not be used as such in heavy farm machinery.

Nor should they be left in minivans all day.

Quote:

They see no need for English courtesies.

Why should they? They're not english.

Oh, and. . This effects you how?

Quote:

Their lives are purposefully dour.

yes, they believe in being plain. This effects you how?

Quote:

Their children, because they are so different are treated badly by 'our' children.

Then our children should stop being such collossal assholes. Or perhaps their collossal asshole parents should step in and maybe, I dunno, teach the kids about diversity?

Quote:

In addition to that, they see our kids living bright, carefree lives in comparision. This makes the kids pretty hardened against us.

Seems like the reverse is true- - you're pretty bloody hardened against the Amish.

Quote:

You find the occasional nail in a board near amish communities on the road.

You find that ANYWHERE. Kids are assholes no matter what culture they're in.

Quote:

And groups of kids occasionally throw things at lonely passing cars.

Wow, kids from the rest of America NEVER throw things at cars do they?

Your examples are, so far, utterly asinine.

Quote:

I'm not saying this all second hand. This is all my own experience with the community.

That's nice. most of it doesn't effect YOUR life in the least, and the stuff that does is perpetrated in even greater numbers by members of non-Amish America.

Kensei · 10-04-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

I don't like the idea of close-mindedness, period. However, I do not think that is something that all Amish are. Limited schooling, and the shunning of technology does not mean there is no growth. Some of our most brilliant minds dropped out of highschool, or had little schooling. "School" does not equal "Learning."
The Amish may not apply their knowledge in terms of advancement, but we have not found advancement to be a necessity yet. In fact, advancement has brought alot of suffering, polarization, and death with it's benefits. Either way, they are their own society.

Sorry Chi, but the concept of polarization is hardly a new one, and has been around always, whether there be technology or not, just look at the inquisition if you want a good example of it. May be worse now ebcause of technology and the media, but it's always been there.

As for suffering, sorry, thats always been there to. Honestly, you talk as if tech is the devil. Is is a two edged sword, like anything else. You sound like an absolutist. If you don't wish to sound this way, qualify your statements with some kind of positive, instead of just focusing on the negative.

No, school doe's not "necessarily" equal learning, but is does more often then not equal learning.

Let's not get so focused on the enlightened Amnish and their grandiose social experimnt that we don't see the forest for the trees. They are indeed harmful to the environment with their oudates farming practices. They do for the most part treat their women as second class citizens, and they do work there kids in ways that break a lot of the "outside" worlds child labor laws. Lets get real here, there are better ways to live once you get off of the whole starry eyes moonbeam profound philosophical view of their whole return to earth and nature lifestyle.

Oh yes, and if you ask better for who then I say gimmie a break and stop splitting hairs, better for them if they knew any better, and certanly better for their kids.

Willravel · 10-04-2006, 04:40 PM

Sorry Kensei, but polarization within a given civilizaion tends to grow over time. It usually reaches a pinnacle right as the ciuvilization is about to fall. Don't belive me? Read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Also, Ch'i never said that polarization is new. He said that it comes with advancement, which is true. Let's avoid Strawman arguments, as they slow down the discussion.

*Remember*, we are not talking about all time. The Amish are only a few hundred years old, not unlike our own civilization.

SteelyLoins · 10-04-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The Amish lifestyle does not appeal to me, but I can see the appeal.

Still lusting over that straw hat, I see.

10-03-2006, 08:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
analog Banned	Why I just can't respect the Amish... First of all... if you're here to make commentary about the event that took place in the Amish school, you're in the wrong thread. I don't want that in here, because this isn't the thread for that. Ok now... I'd like to first say that I've never actively disrespected the Amish. I may have taken a light jab at their culture here or there, but I actually tend to leave them alone and stay away from the jokes about them. Why do I feel like I should go easy on them when I'll joke on any other culture with no problem? I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because i'd rather let them be, because they've certainly never hurt anyone. But here's the thing... The human species is naturally supposed to grow (mentally) and learn more and more. As generations pass, each new generation is naturally inclined to pass on their knowledge, so that the next generation can take that knowledge and expand on it, creating greater understandings of the world around them and to ensure the survival of the species. So why is it that the Amish want to simply... stagnate? Now I did think to myself... what about small groups of people around the planet that are still in "tribes" or "villages", who have not themselves become industrialized? Well, I don't have an answer for that. Most likely, it's because there are so few people (relatively speaking) that the learning curve per generation isn't all that big. That, and many of the biggest advances in technology throughout history have taken place because of just one person's discovery, or a group's discovery, of something new. Here's the beef, though... The Amish, however, KNOW exactly what is out there. They may not know the extent to which technology has grown, but they know of electricity, of modern medicine, and of many of the basic things we don't even blink at that leave them awe-struck. So they know all of this is out there, and that all they have to do is ask and they'll all be a part of it. My thinking is that because they specifically refuse any change, I find it hard to respect that lifestyle choice. Shunning technology is one thing, but they specifically refuse any kind of change. Is it just me that has a problem with a culture whose purpose and continuing mission is "nothing changes"? Does anyone disagree with the notion that groups of people, cultures, are naturally inclined to growth in knowledge? If, then, a culture specifically says, "we will not change, we will not grow"... does that kind of intentional closed-mindedness make you think less of them, maybe? Or do you respect their desire to keep things to manual labor, to make life harder and worth more effort?

10-03-2006, 08:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	I have more tolerance for, and acceptance of, a religious sect or culture, as you described, that asks for nothing from the government and is not critical of those who dont share their beliefs than I do for some evangelical christian groups that condemn judges, politicians, social activists and anyone else they disagree with as "godless" and that want to instill their "values" on the country as a whole through the political process. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

10-03-2006, 08:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Their refusal to use cars, technology, etc., is not based simply on a refusal to change. Their belief is that these things, including mirrors and cameras, by the way, are materials of vanity that serve no purpose in their lives and beliefs. (A splinter group, the Mennonites, use cars, but chrome is blackened.) They believe they are here to serve God and by living a humble life, they are doing God's work and what God wants of them. They call us the 'English', speak old world German and don't have churches, but worship in designated homes. It's getting harder for the younger ones to avoid assimilation; some have left their families, a very hard decision as they become shunned. They don't necessarily eschew medicine and some technologies if there is no other way, they just don't make it a part of their life. They are a very peaceful, well organized community, they are not completely so cut off that they don't interact; in Lancaster County, PA, there's a plethora of Amish businesses, mainly fine crafts and it's a major tourist area, but when taking the backroads, a very beautiful, buccolic countryside abounds. I totally respect their lifestyle and sometimes wish we were closer to it. Look at us, stressed, wanting for things that do us no good, really, always wishing things for ourselves....selfish beings we are..when's the last time you picked up a hammer and saw and helped someone? The last time you planted your own food? We hop in our cars and think we can beat our time from the last trip out by 10 minutes, speed our way to wherever to do...what? Hell, maybe they have it right and we're wrong __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

10-03-2006, 09:02 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kensei Loser	Being someone who no longer drives thats not somethign I have to worry about. Though I live in china now and most walks or rides bikes. however since their are zero emission cnotrols the air hwere is much worse then in america, since more and more ppeople drive or ride motorbikes. The Amish are lucky here. Horse and buggy might be slow, but only by product there is good old fashioned manure, and they can even use that to grow more food. All and all, I wouldn't mind tryig that lifestyle out for a while, though I don't think it would suite me in the long term. Consequently, the Amnish encourage their young people to go out into the world for a year when they come of age, if they choose to, and they are welcome to return. They want them to understand both the outside world, and see why they live as they do. A good practice of illuminating your beliefs by studynig their opposite, in a sense. While most young adults return, some do not, and this is fine and good by them, weeds out the believers from those who are not truly suited to live as Amnish. Some don't go on this little journey until they are into their mid, even late 20's, some never do. Good practice. I don't know how much longer the Amnish will hold on, hopefully a good long time, they act as a reminder to us of the past, simpler times, and perhaps teach some people that happiness can be found without all of the fancy doo dads we have now, or the constant striving for more. Oh and folks the Amnish use money just like us, but in ther own community they will just as often barter. Interesting people, misguided in many ways, but certainly interesting. Last edited by Kensei; 10-03-2006 at 09:11 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

10-03-2006, 09:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	When the power goes out for a day, welcome to Amish country. Well not quite, they still have the needed technology to survive and thrive without electricity, we mostly don't. There is nothing special about the modern age in terms of people, nothing special about change for change sake. I happen to enjoy the culture I'm part of for the most part, but its not a whole hell of a lot different from the life of a roman, we replaced the slaves with machines and industrialization, but the life outlook seems very much the same. The Amish lifestyle does not appeal to me, but I can see the appeal. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-03-2006, 08:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	Analog, you might be interested to know that several Amish communities have fully equipped emergency centers, complete with telephones, computers, etc. The thought being that if they get into serious trouble somehow they can summon help. It's not that they shun technology - they shun stuff they don't feel they need. And they're right. Despite their distinct lack of cars, phones, airplanes, and the internet, they manage to survive and live to ripe old ages. As long as someone doesn't infringe on other people's rights, I dont' care what they do, and I won't deny them respect just because they "stagnate" Also, the idea that the human species is "meant" to do anything is a logical fallacy. To say that we are meant to do something is to say that we were specifically designed by something to do it. Unless you're prepared to discount evolution, that's simply not true.

10-03-2006, 08:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
Kensei Loser	I think it all depends on what your definition of advancement of growth is. Are we growing technologically, or spiritually, and if one and not the other, is this really a good thing. What's more important, making a faster car that burns clean fuel, or becoming enlightened and understanding the universe we live in? I personally think the Amnish are extremeists, and are going about it all wrong, no question. However they don't feel this way, and honestly, when I look at all the stress the modern world causes, it would indeed be nice to embrace seomthing simpler. There really should be room for the past and the present, but I don't begrudge them their beliefs, though I do think they are misguided.

10-03-2006, 08:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	As far as i can tell, the amish live a compeletely sustainable lifestyle and that's pretty respectable. See if you still can't respect the amish when the price of oil goes through the roof and you have to pay a whole lot more than you do now for everything while they remain mostly unaffected.

10-03-2006, 09:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
_God_ Banned Location: You're kidding, right?	There are people in the world who don't respect Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Those people might consider paving over Utah to be "progress." Personally, I could do without the technology that subjects me to a barrage of information about quite a few people--Tom Cruise, Paris Hilton, Barry Manilow ...

10-03-2006, 09:34 PM	#11 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	How often do Amish get cancer? How many Amish people are obese? How many Amish people die from heart disease? How much carbon monoxide do the Amish release into the atmosphere?

10-03-2006, 10:50 PM	#12 (permalink)
analog Banned	Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc. This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing. I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

10-04-2006, 03:04 AM	#13 (permalink)
Kensei Loser	Hmm, well I don't know if anyone has cared enough to do a study of the Amnish to see how many get cancer. Of course some do, that's just common sense, but how many I have no clue. Likely it is a lower numbr then us English of course. As for fat amnish, I have seen some, but no, not a lot. They work for a living, and work hard, of course they weigh less. As to the rest, there ae not that many of them, so an overall comparison would be hard, if anyone even gave enough of a damn to do a study, which I think they don't. Personally, if I liked butter, churning it myself would not appeal to me. Like I said, mix the old and the new, but don't cling to a single extreme to the exception of secluding yourself from the rest of the world, that certainly is not good. Like I said, their goal to reach a closer state in relation to God is misguided and ass backwards, but thats their choice, I really don't give a hoot. I mostly feel sorry for the women. Like any cult, often times the women suffe the most. Amnish women have known no different, but their time is spent doing twice as much work as the man, usually more, doing work that today is considered two full time jobs. Imagine how hard their work is without the modern conveniences of today. The Amnish man has it easy compared to his women. Sad.

10-04-2006, 05:05 AM	#17 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Why force someone to do what they dont want to do? Amish dont bother anyone but I have learned a lot from them by being nosy. If the world goes to hell tomorrow THEY will be able to make it while we sit around mourning the loss of all this technology thatwe dont know how to live without. People spend too much time judging others and being closedminded these days. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

10-04-2006, 10:05 AM	#22 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	I take no issue with the Amish. Its not something I would choose to do, but I see nothing wrong with that life style. In an odd sort of way I grew up similar to them. We used technology, but my grandparents are just now getting electricity. Theyve had a generator for a while, but most of the lights, are gas lights, gravity fed water, gas refridgerator, and stove, etc etc. My father did much the same, we always had large gardens, and provided about half of our own food. The community we live in, rural farming, could and would easily join together to mutually provide almost everything we need, including horses, beef, pork, eggs, chicken etc etc should the world go to shit tomorrow. Granted, we use technology to do some of that, and for the most part I think we are doing it a better way than the Amish.... After Ustwo's photo montage... Sometimes I wonder if the price is worth it, for all the extraneous technology we have. The Amish have a nice life. Last edited by krwlz; 10-04-2006 at 10:09 AM..

10-04-2006, 10:56 AM	#24 (permalink)
FatFreeGoodness Tilted	Amish faith requires them to influence their neighbors primarily by being excellent examples - moral, contented people and good neighbors. They will explain their beliefs if asked, but will not push them on you, and will not condemn you for believing differently. They try to actually live up to biblical teachings of forgiveness, charity, and non-violence. A consequence of this is that they must be especially careful to be mindful of the biblical instruction to “be in the world, but not of the world.” They are perfectly aware that electricity is not sinful. But they also think it is increasingly difficult to keep their separateness the more tightly integrated they become into worldly society. Consequently, they draw necessarily arbitrary lines and say “Up to here is acceptable, past it is not.” It seems nonsensical that they will use generators to power electric machinery but will not connect to the grid, until you follow their reasoning. Then you realize it is perfectly logical, even if you don’t agree with them. Amish do not reject electricity; they reject being tied into the power grid. And they reject the grid not for technological reasons but for the implied integration into the rest of society. They are willing to do without the power grid (which they admit would be a convenience) because they see it as one example of a “camels nose under the tent” that will eventually lead to assimilation. One must admit that their willingness to come to a decision based on moral analysis and then actually follow through is admirable, even if you disagree with the particular line drawn.

10-04-2006, 11:52 AM	#27 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	It's ironic. The Amish shun technology and they are noble for it. A group of hippies decide to shun technology and live on a commune and we make fun of them for it. I'm all for letting people do what they want but I'm with Analog on this. If everyone went the way of the Amish we'd still be thinking the world is flat.

10-04-2006, 11:56 AM	#28 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	I have problems with the Amish lifestyle as well. Because of their insular society, the have serious inbreeding issues. Lots of health and mental problems. They are incredibly unforgiving. Once you cross them or their ways, you don't get back. That goes for children that may choose a different way or whatnot. They shun all things modern, that means tech and ideas. Things that affect those outside such as some not wanting to use blinkers or reflective tape on their buggies. A resistance to modern farming ideas like contour farming that reduces erosion. This leads to a buildup of Nitrates, phosphates and particulate in the Chesapeake Bay watershed. They are very destructive environmentally. They, generally don't care for stewardship of the earth, as our existance here is actually a punishment, not a gift. They do not live by the 'giver' attitudes written about in Ishmael. Their treatment of their women and children is, IMO, cruel and inhumane. They are also incredibly rude and their children are the spawn of hell when they come across outsiders. It's a culture I hope dies out one way or another very soon.

10-04-2006, 12:59 PM	#31 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Well, interestingly enough, the Amish are calling for forgiveness, something you hear rarely if at all among "modern" communities, especially religious ones. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/ami...ing/index.html I don't know. I am pretty impressed by that personally. In a way, it is more advanced than we are.

10-04-2006, 01:09 PM	#32 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I assume that you'd not respect Christian Scientists for shunning medicine in the same vein? Jews for not eating non kosher food? Islamics for dressing covered and also eating only halal food. Why be all up in someone else's business when their business doesn't affect you at all? In fact if they try very hard so that their business doesn't impact you in the slightest? I did see one time a family of Amish here in Times Square. I don't know what they were doing here or why, but they were ooohing and aahing. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION! Last edited by Cynthetiq; 10-04-2006 at 01:11 PM..

10-04-2006, 01:55 PM	#35 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	But what is wrong with what I've said? They are inbred, and becoming moreso because they have been marrying between the same limited number of families for tens of generations. Their concept of shunning is well known. Once you do something that displeases them, they go out of their way to avoid you forever. I've 'worked' with many amish for a year when I was working with the Soil Conservancy in Lancaster. To say they were resistant to changing horrendous farming practices is an understatement. With few exeptions they won't even listen to you. Their women have little rights. Are forced wrap themselves and cloister almost as bad as Burkha'd muslim women. Their opinions are discounted out of hand, they have no say in the direction of their family or community. Husband is master. They treat human life with little regard. I read in the Lancaster New Era every month or so of a father who sent his young son into a thresher to clean out a jam and then closed the bin and went to work, forgetting about the child inside. Gruesome deaths like that are common. Children should not be used as such in heavy farm machinery. They see no need for English courtesies. Their lives are purposefully dour. Their children, because they are so different are treated badly by 'our' children. In addition to that, they see our kids living bright, carefree lives in comparision. This makes the kids pretty hardened against us. You find the occasional nail in a board near amish communities on the road. And groups of kids occasionally throw things at lonely passing cars. I'm not saying this all second hand. This is all my own experience with the community. I don't want them to die off, just to assimilate some with society. They need to face reality like the mennonites have.

10-04-2006, 02:26 PM	#36 (permalink)
Ch'i Artist of Life	I don't like the idea of close-mindedness, period. However, I do not think that is something that all Amish are. Limited schooling, and the shunning of technology does not mean there is no growth. Some of our most brilliant minds dropped out of highschool, or had little schooling. "School" does not equal "Learning." The Amish may not apply their knowledge in terms of advancement, but we have not found advancement to be a necessity yet. In fact, advancement has brought alot of suffering, polarization, and death with it's benefits. Either way, they are their own society.

10-04-2006, 04:40 PM	#39 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Sorry Kensei, but polarization within a given civilizaion tends to grow over time. It usually reaches a pinnacle right as the ciuvilization is about to fall. Don't belive me? Read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Also, Ch'i never said that polarization is new. He said that it comes with advancement, which is true. Let's avoid Strawman arguments, as they slow down the discussion. Remember, we are not talking about all time. The Amish are only a few hundred years old, not unlike our own civilization.