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Old 06-04-2006, 08:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Here we go again-arresting babies

http://www.local6.com/news/9296454/detail.html
Quote:
NAPLES, Fla. -- A 6-year-old special education student who kicked a Naples teacher's aide and spent several hous in juvenile jail is facing felony battery charges.

Her mother, however, wants to know why the case has gone so far.

Takovia Allen suffers from behavioral problems and attends a special class at Lely Elementary in Naples.

According to an arrest report, on May 2, a teacher was trying to line up students to go to music class. Takovia refused to go and kicked the teacher's aide in the ankle.
This is similar to the story/video posted about a year ago and you have to wonder-whatever happened to exuding authority? I've had to deal with kids as big or bigger than me, some really behavioral misfits, including one or two prone to violence and never did I have to go further than a loud, authorative 'KNOCK IT OFF NOW' to any of them and they'd back off. Also, that kind of approach when needed got me the respect from the kids needed to do my job; I had many 'sons and daughters' who put their trust in me. How much trust would one get if every time a baby (and that's what 6 year olds are, really) gets arrested because of a temper tantrum?
Parents think schools are there to 'cure; their kids, too many teachers/admins are afraid to show true authority(and that CAN be done without hands-on), preferring to just call the police or DFS.....
In speaking with one teacher, it's obvious that her show of authority has gotten proven results in a difficult circumstance-the love and respect of many of her kids-and how was she rewarded? She didn't get her contract renewed.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Just another brick on the pile of how we've managed to legislate our society even farther away from simple common sense.

No one in authority anymore is allowed to use judgment, and so you get stupidity like this.
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Old 06-04-2006, 11:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Actually I agree with charging the kid. Too many kids are violent in class now adays, now the teachers are being told don't touch the kids, don't go near them etc... the kids are essentially gettign free reign to do anything they want to without penalty, if the school will not punish the children then the law has to be utilised.

At least in the UK we basically have no way to deal with violent children in classes as the teachers are not allowed to go near the kids for fear of being labeled paedophiles, assaulters or such like. I wish the children would behave in class but this seems to only be getting worse, maybe criminal penalties will act as a detterant.
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Old 06-04-2006, 02:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicVampire
maybe criminal penalties will act as a detterant.
to a 16 year old maybe but to a 6 year old? I dont think so.
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Old 06-04-2006, 02:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngdawg
This is similar to the story/video posted about a year ago and you have to wonder-whatever happened to exuding authority? I've had to deal with kids as big or bigger than me, some really behavioral misfits, including one or two prone to violence and never did I have to go further than a loud, authorative 'KNOCK IT OFF NOW' to any of them and they'd back off. Also, that kind of approach when needed got me the respect from the kids needed to do my job; I had many 'sons and daughters' who put their trust in me. How much trust would one get if every time a baby (and that's what 6 year olds are, really) gets arrested because of a temper tantrum?
Parents think schools are there to 'cure; their kids, too many teachers/admins are afraid to show true authority(and that CAN be done without hands-on), preferring to just call the police or DFS.....
Have you had to deal with kids who'd throw a punch at you?

Now, I'm a big believer in common sense but let me play devil's advocate for a moment and say that, when a rebellious child is attacking you, I don't think saying "knock it off now" is going to cut it. If you have the gall to physically attack an authority figure, you're lost and there's little else that can be done but to show you how unacceptable these actions are by throwing you in jail. These are the kids who will grow up to be adults who will violently resist arrest. Honestly, have you ever seen people run from or, even worse, attack their arresting officers? It's lunacy! Has it ever occured to any of these people to simply go quietly and find themselves a lawyer? Not if attacking their authority figures has worked for them in the past...
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Old 06-04-2006, 02:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=ngdawg]I've had to deal with kids as big or bigger than me, some really behavioral misfits, including one or two prone to violence and never did I have to go further than a loud, authorative 'KNOCK IT OFF NOW' to any of them and they'd back off.QUOTE]

I've seen too many kids that are more than willing and able to strike out at any adult who looks at them funny... Knock if off might work with some kids... but not all..

i dont think a person is too young to start to understand consequences...

the only thing that i would fear, is that she develops a fear of the police... even though she brought it on herself...
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Last edited by maleficent; 06-04-2006 at 02:36 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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What's your solution to child-on-teacher violence, let it continue unabated? Your "yelling at them" method has limited effectiveness on a broad scale. It hardly works for every child, and still doesn't answer the question of what to do when a kid actually hits you. You call the cops. Anything the cops do is out of your hands- that's their job, not yours.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Normally there IS no striking out by the kids because they were stopped. The once or twice it happened, yes the cops were called as it's called 'assault'. I didn't have to yell, I just had to act like they didn't know what to expect out of me. When a 150 lb 7th grader holds a chair over another kid's head ready to crash it down, you act on it, hopefully without tackling the kid to the floor. (In that particular case, he put the chair down and THEN was dealt with by admin.)
Putting cuffs on a 6 year old and 'arresting' her is ludicrous. And if these teachers and admins had half the training they SHOULD have had to deal with special ed kids, it may not have gotten to that point. There's too much fear that lawsuits would transpire, too much catering to the 'esteem' of these kids instead of working on controlling a situation before it becomes a 'situation'.
As many admins and teachers that care and plunge forward, there's matching admins and teachers that just see dollar signs and moving their school up the standard list to make themselves look good. Then the ones that DO care get burned out, put out and discouraged. I don't count out the parents here either. Home life has everything to do with school life in terms of respect, proper/improper behavior and getting such children the help they need without depending on a school system to do the work parents SHOULD be doing in the first place. I feel so bad for these kids; they want the discipline, they respect it when given in an authorative way because ultimately, it shows them they ARE worth the time and effort. And when they feel they're worth it, they respond in kind.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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We just need to put little shock collars on these kids. The teacher can control the power and the zappage to the kids. That serves two purposes, makes them behave better and weeds out the weak ones Darwin style.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeMissile
Have you had to deal with kids who'd throw a punch at you?

Now, I'm a big believer in common sense but let me play devil's advocate for a moment and say that, when a rebellious child is attacking you, I don't think saying "knock it off now" is going to cut it. If you have the gall to physically attack an authority figure, you're lost and there's little else that can be done but to show you how unacceptable these actions are by throwing you in jail. These are the kids who will grow up to be adults who will violently resist arrest. Honestly, have you ever seen people run from or, even worse, attack their arresting officers? It's lunacy! Has it ever occured to any of these people to simply go quietly and find themselves a lawyer? Not if attacking their authority figures has worked for them in the past...
Yes, I have had to deal with kids like that and not once did I have to defend myself physically. Some are labelled 'hopeless', sent off in expulsion, only to show back up in school because there's no one home to watch them.
In the worst isolated classes(these kids were confined to two classrooms a day), as bad as those kids were, not once were teachers or aides harmed; they were trained to defuse pending situations and a couple of aides, in addition to their training, were just plain good at handling the kids.
The ironic thing is that kids who have been arrested in our schools were more likely to be arrested for bringing knives or drugs. Granted, this isn't the Bronx or Detroit or even LA, but it's not Pleasantville either. Many of our students are from Section 8 housing and, in a bit more irony, perhaps, some of the worst behaved kids were the 'rich kids'. Bad behavior knows no class; it comes from every source, but judging by how the kids responded to discipline, it's the mental and emotional lack of attention all around, I really believe, that causes them, at any age, to lash out.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:57 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngdawg
Normally there IS no striking out by the kids because they were stopped. The once or twice it happened, yes the cops were called as it's called 'assault'.
Actually that's called battery. Assault is threatening a person with bodily harm or loss of life. Battery, which would be applicable in this case, is the unlawful and unwanted touching or striking of another person with the intent to cause harm.

That and i'm not sure what kind of school you worked at, but I know several people personally who are hit by SOMETHING on a daily basis- whether it's a fist, a foot, or a thrown object.

Last edited by analog; 06-04-2006 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Wow, I'm surprised we haven't had the obligatory "If they were just allowed to hit them, this wouldn't happen"

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. A six year old is barely able to understand consequences. Arresting this kid and charging her with a felony shows that these dipshits have no idea what they are doing.

Young violent kids are nothing new, somehow we've managed to make it hundreds of years without arresting them.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I won't even go into the day to day details of what kinds of behaviors we deal with at our school. Suffice it to say, however, that a stern, authoritative "Knock it off!" will have a fairly common response by the student. That response being that student laughing at you.

A student laughing at a teacher at our school would barely register a blip on the behavioral radar. In fact, it's fairly certain that the student probably won't even be in trouble unless there is blood involved.

One anecdote to illustrate my point: One of my students (6th grade) got in a fight 2 weeks ago. During the fight, he broke the arm of the student he was fighting. This resulted in a 1 day suspension. 1 day for a broken arm.

I spent 2 years building a strong relationship with my students. But that's with my students. The other students in the school don't behave towards me the way my students do because they only see me a couple times during the day. This has resulted in me being cussed at, called names, threatened, etc. Not every child has a phone at home and even if they do, the phone is rarely answered. Suspensions rarely work because the cause of the child's behavior is so deeply rooted that a suspension does not solve the problem. In fact, most students don't even honor the suspension by returning the following day.

With regards to a special education student: I don't know the policy of Naples, Florida, but in Chicago, a special education student cannot be suspended for more than 10 days in a school year. There are no exceptions to this. For severe behavior where a student needs to be removed from a classroom for the safety of other students and the 10 day suspension rule has already been reached, then the police are the only other option.

Public schools do not have the resources to deal with students in this manner. Until we are given the resources and the personnel to deal with violent students, then I'll place the safety of the other students over the "rights" of the offending student any day.

I personally have had the police called 3 times. I won't hesitate to do it again. I'm not here to counsel or rehabilitate violent students. I'm here to teach. Anyone who creates an environment hostile to that is not welcome in my classroom, I don't care how "special" they are or how whiny the parent is.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Of course, a student kicking a child is wrong, but I don't think a 6 year old kicking someone in the ankle warrants felony battery charges. I don't think it will teach him more than a suitable consequence at the school level (suspension, required counseling in order to avoid expulsion, etc). Plus, what an outrageous waste of money! How much has it cost that community to arrest him, send him to juvenile jail, and now pay prosecutors and court costs to bring him to trial? I'm sure that a clever principal could have thought of a more effective, and more appropriate consequence that didn't cost so much and
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
Wow, I'm surprised we haven't had the obligatory "If they were just allowed to hit them, this wouldn't happen"

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. A six year old is barely able to understand consequences. Arresting this kid and charging her with a felony shows that these dipshits have no idea what they are doing....
Actually, yes they are. In fact, according to Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development, the first stage of moral development involves the avoidance of punishment.

The first stage of the first level is explained thusly:

Quote:
The first level of moral thinking is that generally found at the elementary school level. In the first stage of this level, people behave according to socially acceptable norms because they are told to do so by some authority figure (e.g., parent or teacher). This obedience is compelled by the threat or application of punishment.
When there is no punishment, the child at this stage believes that the behavior is socially acceptable and therefore is likely to continue the behavior.
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:02 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
Actually, yes they are. In fact, according to Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development, the first stage of moral development involves the avoidance of punishment.

The first stage of the first level is explained thusly:



When there is no punishment, the child at this stage believes that the behavior is socially acceptable and therefore is likely to continue the behavior.

Which really starts at home and unfortunately, with kids like this, doesn't. If you're not taught consequences from the very beginning, why would anyone expect such a child to behave better?
I agree, kids that you don't have contact with WILL just basically laugh at you, cuss you out, etc. But since I had to have contact with the majority of the student body my last year there, it wouldn't take but one time and then the next there wouldn't be much of either one. The same kids who in September would literally tell me to 'fuck off', in June were signing petitions and/or writing essays to keep me on(and more than one my reports got them suspended). One girl as a 6th grader accused me of striking her ( I didn't touch her, I caught her stealing); by 8th grade she would only deal with me when she was having a bad time.
There's something inherently wrong somewhere when a teacher's aide, later a security aide is the closest thing to a normal adult/child relationship these kids get. Is it any wonder they lash out?
Teachers' hands are tied way too often. Those not specifically trained to handle 'special' kids are thrust into it nonetheless with not much in the way of options. And to save money, boards of ed are hesitant if not downright refusing to increase the staff with the proper people.
Suspended for a broken arm? I know here there would have been an arrest. When my son was jumped, the Vice Principal told me I should have called the cops, but I didn't-the boys were suspended in-school for 3 days. In our system we have in-school suspension. Apparently kids, specially from middle school on up, found that if they were going to do something, do it big enough to get 3 days home, so out of school suspension is reserved for the worst cases, followed by expulsion and with expulsion, there must A) be an adult at home during school hours and B) a tutor available through our board of ed.
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Old 06-05-2006, 03:40 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I believe it was W. H. Auden who said (in reference to B. F. Skinner's work), "Of course Behavior Modification works. Give me any child and an electric cattle prod and I'll prove it."

My last year of teaching in the public schools was 1994, so I left before the last nauseating wave of change swept through. I clearly remember the dichotomy between the kindergarten teachers and the rest of the elementary teachers in handling kid-on-kid violence. Example: 1st through 6th grade teacher - "If Jamal hit you, then we'll send him to the principal." Kindergarten teacher - "If Jamal hit you, then hit him back."

I'll bet a lot of us older folks were raised along the lines of kindergarten thinking, and I always thought it worked. The latest waves of educational reform swept away that last vestige of common sense, however, and now teachers are trained to pass any problem down the line to someone else.

My most effective discipline technique as a teacher was the reality that all problems were handled in MY room immediately. We dealt with it right there without the principal and without parents and with concrete consequences. And it always, always worked. I never encountered a situation that we couldn't handle, and the kids KNEW that. Teachers don't get that option anymore.

Since kids are born as professional button-pushers, they quickly learn that all of education is a big bluff anyway - nobody has any real teeth anymore. And they learn that very early.
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:11 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
Actually, yes they are. In fact, according to Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development, the first stage of moral development involves the avoidance of punishment.

The first stage of the first level is explained thusly:
Quote:
The first level of moral thinking is that generally found at the elementary school level. In the first stage of this level, people behave according to socially acceptable norms because they are told to do so by some authority figure (e.g., parent or teacher). This obedience is compelled by the threat or application of punishment.
When there is no punishment, the child at this stage believes that the behavior is socially acceptable and therefore is likely to continue the behavior.
Emphasis added to 'generally found at the elementary level' i.e. Grades 1-6. That is a big range in mental development. This kid is 6 so she's in the first grade. Add in the fact that she's in special ed and its a safe bet that you can roll back her mental calendar by a year or two. Also, I never said NO discipline, just that going about it this way is all wrong.
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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i don't agree with arresting the kid at first. Start by getting help and removing the kid from the area, punish him within the guidlines allowed by the school. Inform the parents of the problem and make it clear that it is their duty to punish their kid for their actions. If it continues then have the kid spend a night in juvee while the parents spend a night in jail. thats my 2 cp.
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:43 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
Emphasis added to 'generally found at the elementary level' i.e. Grades 1-6. That is a big range in mental development. This kid is 6 so she's in the first grade. Add in the fact that she's in special ed and its a safe bet that you can roll back her mental calendar by a year or two. Also, I never said NO discipline, just that going about it this way is all wrong.
While I'm not going to profess to know exactly what that segment means, what I get from it is that is where one can best see this type of development in a specific setting. I'm not sure it means that it doesn't exist until then. Our moral development begins at around age 2 when humans are generally able to communicate verbally.

Also, her special education status is behavioral. Since IEPs are confidential, we have no way of knowing exactly what her designation is. A behavioral classification usually is indicative of behavior that is considered violent enough that the student must be removed from a regular classroom at some point during the day. This may or may not be affected by cognitive development. Again, we don't know.

This child is in school due to compulsory attendance laws that state all children between certain ages (generally 6-16) MUST attend school. This is the first problem with these types of situations. I'm a firm believer that a child should be made to demonstrate both the ability and the willingness to participate in a setting such as a classroom before they are allowed in.

Until these types of laws are changed, among other things, we are going to continue to have incidents like this.
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:57 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rekna
Inform the parents of the problem and make it clear that it is their duty to punish their kid for their actions. If it continues then have the kid spend a night in juvee while the parents spend a night in jail. thats my 2 cp.
I was gonna write some smartassed response about the effectiveness of having the class see "Little Jamey/Jaimee" Interegated and processed into the "system"...however...I really like the response given by Rekna. The only problem that I have with it is that there are those kids out there that would cause trouble just to get thier parents punished. I could see a reverse effect happening, whereby the parents now just give the kid anything and everything that he/she wants, just to keep the little turd placated. I think, however, that those cases would be few and far between.
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Old 06-05-2006, 02:22 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I was gonna write some smartassed response about the effectiveness of having the class see "Little Jamey/Jaimee" Interegated and processed into the "system"...however...I really like the response given by Rekna. The only problem that I have with it is that there are those kids out there that would cause trouble just to get thier parents punished. I could see a reverse effect happening, whereby the parents now just give the kid anything and everything that he/she wants, just to keep the little turd placated. I think, however, that those cases would be few and far between.
I agree this could happen, but the kid would have to be pretty bright. Also as with all things there would be descretion at all levels. Teachers are pretty good about reading parents and how active/inactive and good/bad they are at their duty as parents. If I were a teacher and I believed the parents were actively doing everything they could to help the kid then I wouldn't push for them to spend the night in jail.
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Old 06-05-2006, 02:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I don't think a felony charge is in order... but a 6 year old is NOT a baby. It says he has behavioral problems. If he was seriously developmentally challenged, then MAYBE (if that's where his mental and emotional skill levels were). A 6 year old knows, for the most part, right from wrong. If he does not, the parents and society itself have failed him already.
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Of course violent kids should be disciplined. That's common sense. But calling the police because an angry six-year-old kicked you? Please.

Quote:
A 6 year old knows, for the most part, right from wrong. If he does not, the parents and society itself have failed him already.
This isn't about right or wrong. It's about a little kid who can't handle whatever he's feeling at that particular moment and responds with misplaced violence. I used to get like sometimes that when I was that age, the most severe thing my school ever did was have a chat between me, the principal and my parents. No need for law enforcement whatsoever.
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Old 06-08-2006, 01:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I don't think any clear thinking teacher, cop or judge thinks that this arrest is to cure the kid. Give hime 6 more years and he may not even remember the event. If I were in the situation I would call the police so that the child is quickly removed from the situation, the parents are made aware of their childs actions and the lack of tolerance we will show for such behavior and to act as a deterant to the other kids. Schools are not here to teach morals that is the parents job. Hopefully the parents realize that they are failing as such if they are not teaching better behavior.

A school is responsable to provide instruction in a safe environment, once the environment is made unsafe by some miscreant, it is their responsibility to remove the unsafe element. Kudos to this teacher for doing her job.
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Old 06-08-2006, 01:35 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't think any clear thinking teacher, cop or judge thinks that this arrest is to cure the kid. Give hime 6 more years and he may not even remember the event. If I were in the situation I would call the police so that the child is quickly removed from the situation, the parents are made aware of their childs actions and the lack of tolerance we will show for such behavior and to act as a deterant to the other kids. Schools are not here to teach morals that is the parents job. Hopefully the parents realize that they are failing as such if they are not teaching better behavior.

A school is responsable to provide instruction in a safe environment, once the environment is made unsafe by some miscreant, it is their responsibility to remove the unsafe element. Kudos to this teacher for doing her job.
Still, it seems as though you could give appropriate consequences without calling the police. Remove the child from the classroom, place him in an alternative room or the principal's office, call the parents, require them to pick up the child immediately, require a parent-teacher-principal conference. In the meantime, develop appropriate consequences likely including suspension, anger management education for child/parents, strategies to handle inappropriate behavior and reward positive behavior in in the classroom.

I think that schools are here to teach morals- to supplemenent education given by the parents. (Sharing, respect for others, etc.). Even if schools are not be here to teach morals, they are here to teach good citizenship (which likely includes morals).
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Old 06-10-2006, 10:05 AM   #27 (permalink)
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How I read this was as follows. The kid responded inappropriately (ie, violently) to something she didn't want to do. The faculty felt the need to bring law enforcement professionals in and sent the child off with them to be dealt with. If the kid has a history of violent behaviour and previous disciplinary action (such as denial of priveleges) has failed to curb it, this might just be the next step up. The kid might not understand what a felony charge is, but I'll bet she understands big scary police officers and being stuck in juvenile detention. Given that the charges 'may' (read probably will) be dropped so long as she attends therapy, this is my guess as to what's going on. It's a scare tactic.

The article tries very hard to make it seem like a wildly inappropriate response, but the fact that several school and law enforcement officials discussed the action and decided that this was the best course implies to me that there's more here we're not being told.
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
C'mon, just blow it.
 
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Location: Perth, Australia
All that said, the kid could be psycopathic, or sociopathic, or otherwise mentally ill. The case may be that they'll never learn to conform with society - sad, but occasionally true.
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