Telluride

I'm pretty sure the cause of death would be listed as whatever it was that actually killed the person, not "They died because Galt didn't donate his liver."

Anyway, why do I have a duty to save someone else's life? Not that I think people shouldn't help others or donate organs, but they have no obligation to do so.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

highthief

Yeah, God forbid people have spiritual beliefs that preclude desecration of the body after death.

Those evil bastards!



Actually, I'm amazed at all the organ donors here. There shouldn't be a shortage if so many people are donors.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Reese

Galt, If you see someone standing in the road with a speeding truck coming toward them, Let's say you have time to make a conscience decision to let the truck him. The cause of death will still be listed as whatever, you are still partly responsible.

Highthief, There's plenty of donors, there's a shortage of dead ones. (That's not true, but It sounds good.) All the donors on TFP haven't really been harvested yet though

I would like to see a study about any relationship between who is likely to be a donor, and who is likely to die in accidents. It seems to me that anyone that cares enough to give thier organs isn't the kind of person to drive 150mph on a motorcycle and vice versa although I could be wrong..

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“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

percy

One of the reasons they spend the money is to raise awareness because most people don't know or care about signing their organ donor card. Stange but true, but ask anyone randomly where 1) they get an organ donor card from and 2) if they have ever signed one.

If the decision to sign one is irrelevant and unimportant to the potential donor, then they should lose by default. But I'm biased, my cousin received a kidney from someone who died in an accident and now is not only alive and healthy but has a new extended family from the people who lost their son. Happy and sad story all at once.

snowy

the problem, at least here in the United States, is that your family can override your wishes--and it happens a lot. Doesn't matter if it says you are an organ donor--if you don't have it drawn up in an advanced directive, your family can still say no.

This is why everyone should let their families know their wishes, and keep an advanced directive on hand in case they do find themselves in this situation. I know my folks know that if I'm braindead the plug should be pulled and my organs should be taken, and I have a document that says something to the same effect.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Carno

Hahahahaha if they did this shit in the US I'd quit being an organ donor just to spite their asses.

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maleficent

Just curious what the seatbelt laws and helmet laws are in Canada... Are they required? People who don't wear helmets especially are basically future organ donors (least that's what they call 'em in New hampshire where there are still no helmet laws... and Idon't think there are seatbelt laws) .. so why not do away with those laws altogether and make a bigger pool of organ donation candidates...

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Charlatan

In Ontario you are required by law to wear seatbelts and helmets.

Crotch rockets are also called donorcycles by emergency room workers.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

RallyEX

My brother is a transplant recipient. Opt-in or opt-out, doesn't matter to me. I will still donate.

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Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. - Mark Twain

Menoman

wow this thread is amazing... I think not being an organ donor is the most selfish thing a person can do.

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maleficent

I think the exact same thing about people who choose to not be blood donors on a regular basis... But I also don't think that the government can compel you to be an organ donor, nor can they compel you to be a blood donor. It's something a person should do out of choice...

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Menoman

I'm an organ donor and always will be, my family knows this, as do all my friends in one way or another, I have a card I carry in my wallet that says I'm an organ donor.

I can't give blood though, every time I have tried... (like 6 times) not a single nurse can get that needle into my vein for whatever reason.

(giving blood for medical tests is always a day that I HATE, its a smaller needle so they can usually get it, within OHhhhh say the 10th fuckin try

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Psycho Dad

I don't really see the sneakiness that some say comes with this. You get your health card, they explain the new organ donation policy and you choose the one that is right for you.

I'd also have no problem with this becoming the policy for driver's permits in the states. There would still be a choice, you just have to opt out, not in. If it is really so important for your spiritual needs to keep everything intact for the next world learn the facts about your Canadian health card or your state's driver's permits.

And I'll wager that there are more good intentioned people who plan to get around to filling out their organ donation options on their driver's licences that never get around to it than do.

FWIW, if I leave anything of use have at it when I'm dead. Otherwise it's worm food.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Wyckd

this sounds like a pretty good plan to me, actually.
not a lot of people seem to care to donate, but making it a default, and those whom dont want to, can opt not to...

that could save so many lives.

but people donate blood all the time and blood expires quick.

how soon does human guts expire?

AngelicVampire

Wyckd, there is the fundamental point though that a lot of people disagree (well me at least on):

This leads to abuse (when the default option is to agree rather than not agree) and there are probably as many people opposed to organ dontation but can't be bothered as people who are for it but can't be bothered. Yes it could save lives however if I had a bill that said that all of your estate is given to a random person who needs it on your death unless you opt out (and we can lose your card if we want to) would you still opt in?

Menoman

I think you're missing the entire point here...


This would save unimaginable lives... if there were actually small to nil waiting lists for organ donations. It would be a breakthrough in medicine that would up survival rate of certain illnesses by at least 100%. You know.... like the kidney failure that could be just waiting inside YOU.

There is 1 reason I can see to opt out of this, and it would be religious beliefs, silly to me but perhaps not to some people. (I see no reason the massive majority of the US population: Christians, would have a problem with this... its clearly stated you do not take your body with you but rather you will be given a new form upon entering the afterlife)

Furthermore, if those superstitious...errr :P .... religious folk are that entrenched in their belief, it won't be a big deal to just opt out of the program. Because honestly, if it's that important they will go to whatever length to preserve their religious morals. (as if signing 'no' when you get your liscence renewed is "going to whatever lengths anyhow")

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maleficent

I'm not missing the point... I am an organ donor... I have also donated gallons of blood, and have donated bone marrow more than once... I have little patience for people who dont.

However, I also don't think that the government has the right to have any say in what happens to my organs when I die. I have a will to dispense with my assets, I have a living will to decide what happens when I am in that situation. It's my choice, that choice is not made for me by someone else. By having an opt out, that choice becomes less mine.

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cyrnel

This would dramatically increase the number of non-elective surgeries and general billable procedures. It's a vast, untapped market. Hospital wings for organ transplants will sprout like weeds. Great idea. Prepare the direct mail campaign.

/me spent too much time around surgeons and GPs during their lunch hours recently.

edit: I didn't want to say it, but I wonder where this began. It's easy to get recipient families on-board but I'm guessing that wasn't the source.

Want more organs from voluteers? Pay. Give donors a cut. (heh)

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Reese

Angelicvampire, Ever heard of Eminent Domain? It's the government's right to take your property for the good of the community and it can't be stopped. I guarantee you that saving a life is 100 times more important than making a wider highway or building new City Hall.

We are evolving as a society and we are constantly re-writing our ethics. Sometimes we need to make decisions that will help a great number of people while being only a mild inconvenience to some. Is it mutilation to cut off someone's head, put it on a stake to scare away enemies? Hell yes. It is mutilation to respectfully, and carefully take something from a dead person to save lives? Hell No.

There may be as many people, I don't know, but they don't care enough to sign a paper, so why should anyone care enough about them to not save millions of lives?
There's a saying around here, if you didn't vote, don't bitch about the President. The same can be said about anyone that doesn't opt out, don't bitch when your organs get harvested.

Menoman, if you think about it religion plays such a small role in organ donation. Christian Scientists, Shinto, and Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones that don't promote organ donation. There's quite a few of them but they aren't exactly a majority.

edit:

Cyrnel, The National Organ Transplant act made it illegal to sell human organs because..

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“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

cyrnel

Eminent domain is a political eggshell. It would be suicidal for any official to suggest a connection between ED and this bill.

Can't we evolve? That's an old law, and it fails to incent individuals to take better care of their "inventory." (only partly tongue-in-cheek.)

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Ustwo

No the most selfish thing a person can do is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you. To see his cities reduced to ashes. To see those who love him shrouded and in tears. And to gather to your bosom his wives and daughters.

Lets get a bit of perspective here.

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Jinn

? wtf? double post..

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Jinn

What? Huh?

I agree. There's nothing that emboldens the human spirit and says "I love my fellow man" than saying "Fuck you, these organs are mine!"

The only reason you'd say NO to being harvested is either (a) religious belief or (b) selfishness. I'd love to see someone come up with another reason here. If you claim your reason is "because it's mine," that simply a well-worded way of saying that you're so greedy, miserly, or selfish, however you want to put it, that you can't donate something to the common good that in NO WAY helps you.

This is one place where I'm comfortable saying that everyone should be harvested, regardless of their beliefs, religious or otherwise. I much prefer saving the lives of the living than "celebrating" the dead. They're dead, they don't contribute, they smell, they rot, and they did I mention they don't contribute? They don't talk, they don't walk, they don't care, they don't love, they don't make money, spend money, or improve the state of humanity. THEY ARE USELESSS. The only GOOD thing they still have going for them is that their organs CAN help humanity. So if that means mutilating the shit out of their corpses, I'm all for it. It saves lives.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

highthief

You know what? I can't believe the religious and spiritual intolerance of some of the "educated" people on this thread. Yourself and menoman and others.

For some people, as hard as it is for you "learned" folks to understand, their own immortal soul is more important than someone else's transitory earthly existence.

You may not believe that, but saying other people's beliefs are "stupid" or "ignorant" or not worth paying attention to, as several people here have done, is the height of arrogance and ignorance.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Reese

It's not about incentive Cyrnel, as soon as you start putting a price on the organs they have a value and that value starts to inflate. There'll be an organ donation union demanding more money, soon the hospital bill is chump change compared to the price of the organs and everything the NODA meant to prevent is happening. (Only partly tongue-in-cheek)


Why should it matter if you choose on your own or if you choose to be in agreement with a law? That sounds kinda vain although I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to be coming from you, mal.

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“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

maleficent

I've been called a lot worse than vain lately..

I'm not in agreement with the law... I don't think that the government has the right to decide what to do with you after you've passed on... What happens to my remains after I'm dead - is my choice...

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Jinn

Whoa there.. while I might feel strongly, you'll benefit from re-reading my post and noting that I never once attacked any religions. As a matter of fact, I did a search for "stupid" and "ignorant" in this page, and the only place it found it was yours -- so I'm not sure where you got that idea.

Futhermore, my statement that "The only reason you'd say NO to being harvested is either (a) religious belief or (b) selfishness." corroborates this. These are seperated for a reason -- they can be mutually exclusive. You can not want your body descrated per your religion, or you can not want it harvested because you're a selfish bastard. OR you can be both. I made no assumptions on anyone's behalf regarding which they were. One could argue that putting your religion above human life was selfish.. but that's an aside.

I'd like to see you tell me where I even nodded to the effect of religious intolerance. Just because I don't think its a viable reason for implicitly killing people does not mean I'm not educated in their religions or tolerant of them.

I simply said that I would much prefer saving lives than honoring dead people, religiously or not:

OH, and P.S. - Jesus sacrificed HIS body to humanity. Wouldn't donating your organs post-mortem further show a devotion to following the Lord's path? (assuming you're Christian)

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Jinn

How, precisely, would you indicate that "choice" to those of us who were still living? In the absense of a written will or a "sticker," the decision should always default to the family, and then the government. What other choice is there? By putting an opt-out sticker, this simply solidifies an already implicit rule so that people can be "donated" without so much litigation.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

AngelicVampire

And why should I want to save people whose only thought is for themselves and how this can extend their lives? Could it be that perhaps some people see it as selfish that people wish to extend their own lives beyond that which is natural (not saying its unnatural merely that there is this point of view as well). There are reasons people may not wish to donate, if we follow the logical path of this your estate should by default go to the state as well and many people would be opposed to that!

The choice does currently go sticker, family government, just that the automatic assumption is no because this will offend fewer people by default and means that there is no benefit to failing to include them in the system or losing a card.

Looking at this in America (rather than Canada where the healthcare is free so its less of an issue) how would you react, poorer people will still be poor and unlikely to be able to afford the cost of a transplant, the rich however will be thus creating the dicotomy that is feared by the paying for donors. Heck why make organ donation illegal in life, you only need 1 kidney and 1 lung, etc... you could easily create an economy of organs from those willing to sell them in life when they can make a choice on their own to go into the health care system.

If you had a say as to how your organs were donated I am sure a lot more people would want to donate, there are some truly selfless people however there are a lot more who would likely be willing if they had some say as to how their organs were used rather than a generic "donation" (I donate money to charities which dispose of money in ways I agree with, I do not donate to other... something similar may help people be willing to donate).

Marvelous Marv

Actually, it's been decided in US courts that you have ZERO right to any of your body parts once they are surgically removed, even if you're still alive. The placenta in particular is a real money-maker.

Link

It's obvious that the proposed law would have huge financial ramifications. The last time I heard, which was well over ten years ago, a recipient of a kidney (or his insurance) paid $25,000 per kidney. You should recall that they usually remove kidneys in pairs, so SOMEBODY makes $50,000 from a kidney donor, but it isn't the donor or his family.

Kind of makes the oil and insurance companies look charitable, IMO.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Sultana

I'd have to imagine that the number of folks whose religion prohibits organ donation is so relatively minute that it probably does not pose a realistic factor in this discussion.

And this thread as convinced me that folks should have a say in what happens to their bodies after death. Think of it as a house. You're certainly not going to use it after your death, but of course everyone feels they have the right to dictate what happens to it after they die. Just because some homeless people may benefit from using your house when you're gone and not utilizing it anymore doesn't mean that's what should necessarily happen.

However, the Gov't (American gov't, anyways) has an "opt-out" program too. It's called a will. If you don't leave a legal document, the gov't can do all kinds of annoying, interfering, and value-reducing actions with your house.

An addendum question: Maybe the government should consider offering a tax credit for blood and organ donations? Now *that's* what I'm talking about!

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Marvelous Marv

How, precisely, will you guarantee that a person who has a vehement objection to being (what they consider) desecrated will be treated in accordance with his or her wishes?

If you want to believe that a hospital wouldn't "lose" the opt-out of a person with a rare blood type, that's up to you. Like I said in the previous post, there's a huge financial incentive for them to do exactly that.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a much better system that the hospital has to prove they have permission to cut up my friends and family, rather than for me to prove that they don't have permission.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

cyrnel

Cybermike, I'll keep it straight. I agree free organs (and transplants) for the masses would be great, but I don't believe a forced taking is necessary or wise (for reasons stated well by others). Nor will it solve the overall availability problem. (counting ORs, ICU beds, surgeons, recovery rooms, floor beds, support resources, ad nauseum) Organ availability is no panacea. We would saturate our healthcare facilities with a modest increase attainable by public awareness compaigns. Opt-out or forced harvesting is the road to a refrigeration crisis.

Anyway, I'm just offering my slanted (twisted) perspective honed from a year dealing with the healthcare beast from bottom to top. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Reese

It's presumed that the family is going to want any property. It's also presumed that no one in the family is going to want the organs. They can't actually keep them so the only option is burying them with the person or donating them. It's still going to be their choice in case of missing proof.

AngelicVampire, going by your own logic, if organ donation was just presumed, there would not be a lack of organs and there would be no need "lose" a sticker, not to mention there's laws in place already to prevent people from this. Again, The process would STILL be Proof, Family, Government. So anyone who has a vehement objection still has the family to fall back on.

Extending life beyond what's natural? We are beyond nature, nature is letting dogs feed off your corpse when you die. We evolved and made our dead sacred, now our knowledge has evolved once again and we learned we can use the dead extend the life of the living but we still have a hard time letting go of old traditions and beliefs.

How is someone on the organ donor transplant selfish? The majority are probably the least selfish people on earth. They have spent the time in the hospital and they're humbled. They don't wish anyone to be as sick as they are and they know for them to live someone else has to die.

Cyrnel, your agruement is there's not enough beds in hospitals? With millions more donations and receiving It'll pay for expansion. it may be overwhelming in the beginning but they will adjust. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.

FORCED Harvesting? Strong words there. It's hardly forced.

Angelic, You can choose to donate whichever organs you want, They monitor the organ waiting list, if someone on the lung transplant list smokes, they're disqualified, same with drinkers and other preventable reasons. They aren't just transplanting kidneys and dropping the patient off at the bar.

I can't stay here and argue all day I need sleep. I'll let everyone analyze everything I said, find the weak parts and point them out to me. Then you can remind me about everything I forgot about replying to and I'll catch up in the morning. :P

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“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

Menoman

This thread seriously boggles my mind....

I never would have thought the decision to save another persons life... the ability to save a person the heartbreak and sorrow of losing a child, or a mother who would die too young, would be so casually thrown aside.

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ShaniFaye

Im still trying to figure out why its such a big deal to "opt out", when those of us that have agreed to be donors in the past, me included by saying yes when I renew my drivers license...havent really complained about the extra step WE have had to take to agree to do it, am I missing something here? Is it that big of a deal to say no, I dont wish to do this....

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maleficent

ask that to all the people who won't/don't give blood for whatever reason...

I have no problem with organ donation... I have my card... I want it to be my choice - I don't want that choice made for me- why is that so mind boggling?

How can you guarentee that harvested organs would actually be put to good use... I'm sure there would be a lot of waste as well...

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Ustwo

Melodrama ftw!

Saying the state should not get ones organs by default does not equal people wanting babies to die.

Its more of a question on the nature of the state and society.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Seaver

You obviously have never met anyone on an organ waiting list. You've never seen what it does to thier brother/sisters having to realize their sibling is going to die. You've never seen what it does to their parents, first being torn apart by seeing their son/daughter being slowly ravaged by the disease... then slowly realizing that their little one is going to die because people are too lazy/heartless to care enough to give organs they will never use again to someone who desperately needs it.

You're dead.. you're right what do you care then. My question is how can you live with yourself NOW? You remind me of those people who watched the old lady get stabbed to death, not helping, and watched him as he calmly walked away.

Ustwo

Exactly, its not organ donation thats the issue, its the state being sneaky about it thats the issue.

Educate the public, make it more accepted, but this is trying to sneak it in under the radar.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.