ziadel

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/133585.php




the 1911 WILL be in service until 2011, I just know it. What's a better indicator of usefullness than that??


the rest of the article is good, kinda sucks tho about the SAW's and the general ineffectiveness of the 5.56's

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Suave

The major thing I noticed is that he talks about the "M243 SAW", when they use the M249. Quite a typo to make.

I've also heard his point about the M14 and M1911A1s being "re-issued en masse", called outright bullshit.

However, the general ineffectiveness of 5.56 compared to larger calibres is sort of "common knowledge" at least for me. I'm not entirely sure which sources I got it from, but the size and weight of it, along with the fact that it doesn't tumble past 400 m are detrimental to its capabilities.

Also, dissenting opinion regarding troop acceptance of the M60:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marin...ns/l/blm60.htm

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Sho Nuff

The 1911 is still the best handgun for duty carry. It is a shame they make a single law enforcement officer in the world travel without one. They make us carry the 9mm and everyone hates it. Even with hollow tips you dont have the stopping power. They powers that be are more concerned about our shots penetrating the target and causing damage beyond, which is a valid concern, but could be countered by allowing us to carry a duty and backup weapon of a different calibur and better training in judgemental shooting.

I agree with what he says about the M4, but I would love to be able to carry the M14 in the field, though I havent seen much of the new generations.

The SAW has been a long time favorite of the boys over here and weve had no problems with jamming but most of the field testing weve done on it has been in the states and the actual combat use in tropical climates so I cannot attest to is reliability in the desert.

__________________
I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

ziadel

whats really fucking up the 5.56 are the short ass barrels we're shooting it out of. You can't shoot a .223 out of a 14inch barrel and expect a lot of lethality, you need barrel to get that thing up to speed...


Sho Nuff, you're NYPD? If so, I really think they need to adopt more than one caliber, 9mm for idiots who don't care to learn to shoot, and something that starts with a 4 for people who actually care enough about their job to learn the tools of their trade.


and I know someone who is carrying a SAW in Iraq right now, he testifies that the thing rips cases apart on a constant basis.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Sho Nuff

Nah, Im not NYPD. Im a fed operating overseas.

I have a brother just back from Iraq. I need to ask him about how the SAW worked out there. Weve been fortunate enough to use the SAW in close to ideal operating environments. Our biggest concern while using it for combat was rust because of the tropical conditions. Desert engagements are a completely different animal.

__________________
I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Suave

And honestly, sand will fuck up any finely-tuned weapon. If you want it to work, it has to be a robust inaccurate beast like the Kalashnikovs.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

ziadel

the sand hasn't caused any problems with the NM M-14's, and those are MOA wepaons, so they must be pretty tight....

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Suave

Oh well, I'll give up the charade: what I said was speculation and I don't know what I'm talking about in that post.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Gitmo

I carried a SAW in Iraq. My experience with the SAW even before Iraq is that its just a very high maintenance weapon, it requires constant lubrication and cleaning and because it’s a belt fed weapon system it allows dirt and sand to find its way in to the chamber fairly easily. I don’t think marines feel any different about these weapons now than they did before the war.

ziadel

*confused*

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Suave

If the sand hasn't caused problems with MOA/sub-MOA rifles (as you said), then evidently a firearm can be finely-tuned without having jamming problems. My post was hearsay and speculation, so I gave myself up.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

longbough

M-14 is an excellent weapon - I'm happy to see it realized in print ... again.

Chilek9

They've been reissuing and acquiring 14's from SA for a short while, it really seems to have found a niche in urban warfare with its ability to penetrate walls and make the bad guys life miserable. It's a little more precise than M-4's and is useful in a lot of situations. Most of the ones I've seen in use are the short barreled scout versions.

longbough

The 16" barreled "scout" M1A1s seem nifty but I'd wonder about the muzzle flash, report and velocity loss of .308 in such a barrel. I always presumed that 18" to be about the minimum length for a .308 rifle ... at least I found it to be true in FN-FALs.

Chilek9

The G.I.'s aren't terribly worried about muzzle flash because when they open up with those, they normally have taken second place in the "find the other team" contest. It's generally used as a suppression/response weapon, not to start an ambush.

ziadel

SA? Springfield Armory? Springfield Armory is no more, it was shut down. the Springfield Armory that sells guns is a privately held company that just took the name, nothing more, and what they sell aren't even M-14's, they can't be legally called that. the M-14's that are resurfacing have just been in storage since the vietnam era.


as for the SOCOM, eh, from what I have seen it's finnicky about surplus ammo, but it doesnt loose as much velocity as you might think.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Chilek9

What I am telling you is that the company, Springfield Armory, in Geneseo, Illinois, is selling the SOCOM version of it's M-1A (the M-14) to the military in large numbers. I know what the company is, I just bought a 1911 from them (that pistol ROCKS). I'm just saying that the friends of mine in the MP's that I used to work with before I took this job are telling me that the 14 and various newer manufactured versions, thereof, are turning up in BIG numbers in Iraq.

Lebell

I'll have to email my friend and ask him.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

ziadel

I havent heard of the SOCOM being issued to anyone, and frankly, I would find it very surprising if they did. The supply problems just from having the M-14's in the hands of designated marksmen is a headache enough I am sure.

I really don't see anyone taking the SOCOM over a full-auto m4 for room to room type work, or even better yet the mossberg *shrug*

I'll drop my contact at SA a line and see what she says.






p.s. Springfield Armory does rock, best 1911's on the market, but the M1a's are becoming problematic, if I had the cash to get one (which I hope to soon) I'd prolly go with a Fulton Armory M14

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Chilek9

They aren't issuing M-14 and variants to lots of guys, just a very few. Kind of an intermediate between M-4's and sniper rifles for drilling someone in a window across the street. I'd prefer the M-4 for house to house, room to room as well. I carry one on my duties during daylight hours and the shotgun for after dark.

ziadel

I think the reemergance of the M-14 has more to do with the fact that, in urban areas anyways, multi-shot capability trumps incredible sub MOA accuracy, your engaging multiple targets at absolutely no more than 300 yards, not pegging one unlucky SOB at 1000 yards...


I think the M14 will be with us quite a while.


if I were in the theatre tho, I'd look hard and long for a G3, failing that, a FAL.


goddamn you gotta love rollerlocking firearms, lotts people say the AK is the final word in reliability, but an AK wont continue to function sans extractor.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Chilek9

I've shot the Brits SLR (their version of the FAL, L1-A1?) and the G-3 that the German Police SEK were using in Berlin and I have to say that I think the M-14 was a much better weapon, but, once again, it all gets down to chevy's and fords. I like this and you like that and both are cool. The 14 seems to have a bit better range and a better rear sight for compensating for distance. The sights on the G-3 are easier to pick up. The FAL's sights just plain suck. That's my opinion for what it's worth.

ziadel

if I could get a hold of a M14 with 'da switch' I would prolly agree...

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

ziadel

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.