01-25-2006, 04:50 AM | #161 (permalink) |
Shackle Me Not
Location: Newcastle - England.
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If I wanted to be awkward, I could read how the story also negatively affects your ratio of responsible:irresponsible gun owners, chances of being hit by stray bullets and likelyhood of a carelessly discarded weapon falling into criminal hands.
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01-25-2006, 05:18 AM | #162 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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but the ROOT of the issue is the irresponsible law enforcement officer
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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01-25-2006, 05:18 AM | #163 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-08-2006, 03:19 PM | #164 (permalink) |
I'm a family man - I run a family business.
Location: Wilson, NC
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I haven't read the entire thread, but I definitely have a firm opinion on gun laws and gun control.
Banning hand guns in any city will not reduce hand gun crimes. Crack cocaine is banned. Marijuana is banned. A lot of shit is banned. Yet it's still there. Yes, let's punish the law abiding citizens of the US by taking away their defense against bastards that are willing to use guns to commit a crime. If you take away the legal guns, the illegal guns will still remain. We are then defenseless. Unless the US wants to pay all of the former handgun owners to learn knife training and close quarter combat. And hand out bullet proof vests. I can see it now. "let's rob that house......they look like law-abiding citizens. they won't have any hand guns. let's do this."
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Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush. |
02-09-2006, 12:42 PM | #165 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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exactly. what is the addage.... "if you outlaw guns, then the only people who will have guns are outlaws" I'm just glad the NRA has such a powerful loobying group with congress. sweetpea
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Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself" |
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02-12-2006, 01:51 PM | #167 (permalink) | ||||
Psycho
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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The 14th Amendment, ratified in the late 1860s, basically created the doctrine of Equal Protection in consitutional law. The 2nd Amendment says this: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed". Interesting thing about the Bill of Rights and why they're different from other amendments: Rights are not granted by governments and are not exclusive to citizens. If the United States dissolved tomorrow we'd all still have the right to free speech, religion, assembly, to bear arms, to be secure in our persons and property, et al. The 2nd Amendment does not create the Right to Bear Arms. It, like all Rights, exists independent of governments. Quote:
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I'm not sure if you paid attention to how the American Revolution was waged, but do note that nowhere in the 2nd Amendment is there any reference to foreign threats. Quote:
Disclaimer: I don't own any guns and never have. I do periodically have to qualify and occassionally carry one at work. So keep the "Oh, you crazy gun nuts trying to compensate for your tiny micropenis with firepower" comments in the box.
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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions |
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02-12-2006, 03:13 PM | #168 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: Rochester, NY
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Gun ownership with responsible citizens? Sure, why not. After all it is protect under our constitutional rights. But there is just so so so much more to guns and gun violence in the US than just the 2nd ammendment. I mean sure if someone feels the need to own a handgun for protection from the boogey man entering your house while you are sleeping, then sure get a gun. Even though in most cases of home invasions people aren't even awaken by a burglar or aren't even home, and by the time they wake up and see there house in ruins it is too late to draw your weapon from it's safe on the top shelf of your closet and oops, you left the key for the case downstairs to open the case, and then you struggle to get the thin safety sticker of the box of the ammo. But still, if you had managed to wake up in the middle of a home intrusion and were able to secure a loaded gun into your hands would you rationally be able to identify a thief and pull the trigger to end this persons life knowing that it wasn't your child sleep walking or going for a midnight snack, or a family member entering your house because there was a family emergency and your phone line got knocked out? I would put my money on no.
The NRA to me is just a bunch of little kids who abuse the 2nd ammendment and have no rational judgement. Speaking to a hard-core member of the NRA is 100% pointless. You could bring up 1,000 valid arguements on restrictions and limitations that should be put on "arms". It just falls upon deaf ears. If you do every manage to enter a debate with an individual of sorts you will see. If you do corner them in a legitimate arguement and have their backs against a wall, the only response you will get from them is. "Well, the second ammendment states..." Enough to make you pull your hair out and just want to move far far away from these people. True what the previous post did say about taking guns out of the hands of responsible citizens. That would accomplish nothing at all. Guns would still remain in the hands of the wrong people and would probably become more of a threat than they were before. There could potentially be so many reasonable solutions to the gun epidemic and murder rate from guns in the US, but as long as there are assholes like the NRA defending guns and not people. Well, we all see the outcome everyday. Maybe this year we can hit that 12K murder mark from guns. We were only 200 shy last year. Good job Heston. BTW NRA...National RIFLE assoc. Stick to what the name of your organization states. It's not NHGA. |
02-12-2006, 03:29 PM | #169 (permalink) |
Twitterpated
Location: My own little world (also Canada)
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1. Firearm control will not work in the United States. If you doubt me, look at the census data between areas that have strict gun control laws and those that do not; you will see no causal relationship between having stricter control and lower incidence of firearm-related assault and murder.
2. Doesn't this belong in politics? 3. In response to "binary": the right accorded by the Bill of Rights would not exist if the United States dissolved. They exist only because they are supported by the current infrastructure, and if said infrastructure no longer exists, then neither do the rights, regardless of how essential your society deems them.
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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato |
02-12-2006, 04:19 PM | #170 (permalink) | ||
Psycho
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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The reason people get a bug up their ass when people say "Just amend the Constitution." in respect to the 2nd amendment (or any of the Bill of Rights, really), is that if you say there's a way to wave a magic pen and remove the Right to Keep and Bear Arms... that way will work just as well for the Right to Free Expression, Free Exercise of Religion, et al. Quote:
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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions |
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02-12-2006, 07:00 PM | #171 (permalink) |
Soylent Green is people.
Location: Northern California
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Regardless of rationale, this is what will happen if the gun ban remains over the next couple of years:
1.) Statistically significant increase in violent crime - ESPECIALLY rape - which has been the one crime that disproportionately rises with every increase in gun-control legislation (e.g. this is what happened when the Brady Bill went into effect.) 2.) If there is only a moderate increase in violent crime it will not be discussed in the media at all. The opponents of gun-control legislation will publish the facts on blogs and in forums like these ... while gun-contol advocates will dismiss the statistics as biased and probably twisted simply because it's coming from people supporting gun-rights. Still, the majority will refuse to find an objective source for facts. 3.) If there is a significant increase in violent crime and rape - then the blame will be placed on the surrounding counties. Gun control advocates would paradoxically use it as "proof" that the ban needs to include surrounding counties... and so on and so forth. Its just like what's going on in Canada (with its restricitve laws) where violent crime has increased in comparison to the crime rates in the US ... and the blame is placed on gunrunning from the US (where overall crime rates have decreased). I'll mention the analogy with The War on Drugs again ... If anything it's easier to find illegal drugs because it's a chemical that can be detected in the body, smelled in many cases, sniffed out by trained dogs - yet people are still growing MJ in their back yards and cooking Meth in their basements without problem. Controlling illegal guns will be much more difficult because, broken down, they're just pieces of metal, springs and machinery that wouldn't look out of place in a box of machine parts. Last edited by longbough; 02-12-2006 at 07:06 PM.. |
02-12-2006, 09:51 PM | #172 (permalink) | |
Twitterpated
Location: My own little world (also Canada)
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I do understand what you mean about people wanting to amend the Bill of Rights though. The government amending something that is meant to keep them in check is a bit of a conflict of interest.
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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato |
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02-13-2006, 05:30 AM | #173 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-14-2006, 07:16 PM | #174 (permalink) | |
Twitterpated
Location: My own little world (also Canada)
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__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato |
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02-15-2006, 08:21 AM | #175 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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The primordial order of strong ruling the weak is an animal kingdom rule, not a human society rule, and as such humans have every right to use whatever means necessary to defend their life. The government does not 'grant' me these rights, they are natural rights granted to us by our creator. They pre-exist the government.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-16-2006, 04:04 PM | #176 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Upon much reflection, I have deicded that at this debates very core is a matter of my perception and philosophy differening greatly from others. I will let Ghandi speak for me in answer to several previous insinuations: "Nonviolence and cowardice are contradictory terms. Nonviolence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. Nonviolence springs from love, cowardice from hate. Nonviolence always suffers, cowardice would always inflict suffering. Perfect nonviolence is the highest bravery. Nonviolent conduct is never demoralizing, cowardice always is."
I am such a strong believer in nonviolence, that I believe that violent self defense is still violent, whether the cause of that violence is nobel or not. Ghandi again: "However much I may sympathize with and admire worthy motives, I am an uncompromising opponent of violent methods even to serve the noblest of causes." It took me years of martial arts training and much violence to realize that true peace means a dedication to nonviolence that is uncompromising. While I have the skill to defend myself or attack someone with a high success rate, I know that I will never be able to do it beacuse it's wrong. When I hear people justifying murder or violence, no matter the reason, I see one thing: entitlement. While you will not agree with me in this, I must tell you how I perceive the subject. If a man acts in such a way as to purpously take my life or the lives of my wife or daughter, he is posturing for battle or conflict. If I counter and injur or kill him, have I won? Is it really a victory if he is left injured or killed? I would say not. It is the general sense in our society that it IS okay to murder in self defence that I speak of when I say entitlement. This is why I so ademently support security doors and passive defensive measures. Buying a gun to defend yourself is similar to making a doomsday device to keep yourself safe. It is the most severe form of contradiction. If you wish to buy a gun in order to keep yoursrelf safe, please do so. If you want to question why others don't have a gun, expect an answer that has more to do with philosophy than statistics. I realize, as someone who lives in the real world, that the statistics point to probable failure for the San Francisco gun ban. I also know that I sleep more soundly knowing that others are, like me, so dedicated to non violence that they are willing to gamble their lives on it. If it doesn't make sense to you, that's fine. I expect no concessions on the matter. I just wanted to come back fresh and let you know what I was thinking. I apologize if I offended anyone with my eariler posts. I started to lose my temper, and that is something I have to live with. One more Ghandi quote to go out on: "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." |
02-16-2006, 05:14 PM | #177 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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I understand and see what you are saying Willravel... and i am the most non-violent person you could ever meet, and i agree with you that being peaceful is VERY important. but if some guy is going to try to rape me or try to kill me... i'll be prepared to protect my life at the cost of his. Once you've known someone (and i have, she was my good friend) who was kidnapped, beaten and raped... it changes how you feel about people and about how far you will go to protect yourself. If my friend had had something to protect herself when she was kidnapped, her whole life would be different. that's why i support gun ownership and self-protection is why most people i know support it. sweetpea
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Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself" |
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02-16-2006, 05:31 PM | #178 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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02-16-2006, 05:50 PM | #179 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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i see what you are saying. and i respect that you feel that way. thank you for clarifying. Sweetpea
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Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself" |
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02-16-2006, 06:03 PM | #180 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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02-16-2006, 08:42 PM | #181 (permalink) | ||||||||||
Soylent Green is people.
Location: Northern California
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However, for me, that philosophy falls entirely apart when you accept responsibility for the well-being of other people (e.g. as a father with family or as a leader of a town, city, state or nation). It is one thing to be willing to sacrifice your own health and life for principle … but should you sacrifice the lives of the people you govern (or love) to satisfy your personal principles? Note: Leadership of a “movement” is a different matter, however. As an iconoclast for ideals, Ghandi’s influence in history and world consciousness is undeniable. I’ll leave it to the reader to research Mahatma Ghandi’s effectiveness as a responsible husband to his wife and father to his children. In my opinion, self-proclaimed “non-violent” purists thrive in self-indulgence but suffer in positions of responsibility for the well-being of others. Quote:
… in that much I completely agree with you. However, I don't believe that all acts of violence are a product this mechanism. It’s a convenient stereotype to make about all acts of violence … but that would be both naïve and wrong. Quote:
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If I cause harm to another individual because they posed an otherwise unavoidable threat to my family then my decision to act represents a simple equation: his/her life vs. my loved one(s) life (lives). The need to make such a decision is the consequence of his/her initiative - not mine. Does it mean I have no qualms about doing it? Not at all. If I ever killed another person ("justifiably" or not) I will most certainly endure the psychological and emotional aftermath for many years ... probably for the rest of my life. I don't look forward to facing that possibility, but currently I believe I may have to accept that burden some day if the lives of my family are at stake. But FAILING to protect my family also bears an emotional and psychological burden - one that would be more unplesant to face. I couldn't forgive myself if I had to choose this path. Perhaps in your “moral” sensibility I have “lost” because I resorted to violence. Fine. The value of my entire life doesn’t revolve around a singular philosophic principle. --------------------- I don’t believe that life is constructed solely of moral dualities. Not all choices are clearly “right” or “wrong.” “Moral dilemmas” are, by definition, those cases where personal principles come into conflict – and where every option has a measure of “good” and “bad.” I believe life isn’t simple. If I choose to steal bread to feed my family I have weighed the consequences and made a commitment. If I choose to let my family starve rather than steal I have chosen the path of a different principle. I believe life is full of ugly decisions in an imperfect world. The purest life can only be conducted in isolation beyond the complexities of people, community and political strife. Maybe that's why "holy men" often live as celebate hermits without possessions or responsibilities. IMO If life was meant to be “pure” without conflict … then what’s the point of living? That’s what I believe. Do I feel at peace understanding that I have the means of committing violence with a firearm? Of course not. But it is my choice. If your choice is different - I can't venture to say you were "wrong" - only that your balance of principles is different. Quote:
Should I consider you a more dangerous person because you mentioned you are adept at martial arts? How would you feel if people said that your training just means you are a violent person? How would you feel if the laws determined that you, as a martial artist, has a greater potential for violence against your family and/or society because you have chosen to learn skills specifically designed to cause injury or death? How would you feel if, because of that, you had to register with the local sherrif every time you move to a different county? As a fellow practitioner of martial arts I believe that the principle of knowledge (e.g. in martial arts) is a greater empowerment. Like you I believe I have become even less prone to violence when I became more proficient in learning martial arts. That’s because the study of martial arts gives knowledge and self-awareness especially in the face of adversity. For myself, firearms training is very similar. When you are properly educated (e.g. at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, LFI, Front Sight etc.) you are introduced to the legality, the emotional consequences and the responsibility of owning a firearm. In fact, many people seek the training but choose not to carry a gun in the car because of the consequence – often they return for training simply because it grants knowledge. Professional firearms instruction is every bit as much a mental, physical and philosophical discipline as the study of martial arts using hands, bo staff, bokken, katana, escrima, kama or kerambit. Professional firearms instruction teaches breath control, stance, balance, awareness, concentration, logic, improvisation, physical conditioning and personal discipline. Quote:
But, as I have replied many times before, (i.e. every time you make this same statement) –“Passive security measures” and guns serve entirely different roles. A gun won’t provide a physical barrier between you and an intruder in the living room. And a security door won’t help you when you get pulled from your car in the middle of LA during a riot. Quote:
Is it a “severe form of contradiction” that you, as a practiced martial artist, considers himself a non-violent person? Ghandi wasn’t a martial artist, as I recall. Quote:
I never questioned your decision to NOT have a gun. Like many others I only respond to opinions that challeng MY decision to have one. The gun ban affects gun owners it has nothing to do with people who choose NOT to own a gun. Quote:
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02-16-2006, 09:42 PM | #182 (permalink) | ||||||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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[QUOTE=longbough]However, I don't believe that all acts of violence are a product this mechanism. It’s a convenient stereotype to make about all acts of violence … but that would be both naïve and wrong. I can't speak for others - only myself. If I ever make the unfortunate choice to enact some violent means to resolve conflict it wouldn't be a matter of "justice" (as you describe) at all. It would be for the explicit purpose of saving the lives of people I care about. Justice is for the courts/philosophers/pseudo-intellectuals to decide - I'm just trying to protect my loved ones.[/QUOE] I recognise that not all violence stems from a lack of self control, or anger, or rage, or anything dishonorable. I know that much violence comes from self defense. I have no illusions about that. "However much I may sympathize with and admire worthy motives, I am an uncompromising opponent of violent methods even to serve the noblest of causes." Quote:
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02-16-2006, 10:33 PM | #183 (permalink) | |||||
Soylent Green is people.
Location: Northern California
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We're talking about guns, right? Let me tell you where I'm coming from: If someone wants to steal my wallet, car, briefcase etc. I DON'T reach for a gun - I let him have it all. That's what insurance is for. If someone verbally threatens me, I DON'T reach for a gun. I try to talk to him and find a resolution. If someone verbally threatens my family, I DON'T reach for a gun. I stand between him and my family and try to talk to him to find a resolution. If someone verbally threatens my family AND he's holding a knife I DON'T reach for a gun. I stand between him and my family and try to talk to him to find a resolution. But if a stranger is charging at my helpless family with knife in hand, clearly in a threatening manner, - I WILL draw my weapon to STOP him. I don't see this as a fight. My intent is to STOP an act of violence against myself or a loved one ... that's all. The mortality/morbidity of my target is not the main issue. This is not just a euphemistic distinction: If I happen to shoot and miss but the agressor drops his knife and/or runs away - I am successful. If I shoot him and the bullet lacerates the thoracic aorta but he is able to plunge a knife into a loved one just before he dies from rapid internal bleeding - I am unsuccessful. My only concern is the protection of my family - the aggressor's health is a secondary consideration. That's why it's not a fight. Quote:
I have seen many cases in my work and life where people who never considered such a scenario found themselves facing it - Where they had to act within 1-2 seconds ... and couldn't. Quote:
As a physician I'm terrific at treating others ... but it's much harder for me to feel objective with my own family. You think the worst things when a child has a severe cold. I can still feel helpless in that case ... and I'm a doctor! Quote:
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02-17-2006, 01:24 AM | #184 (permalink) |
Myrmidon
Location: In the twilight and mist.
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I don't think I've posted in this thread yet.
Heres what I think: Don't fuck with Moses. /tongue and cheek mode off
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Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read. Last edited by ziadel; 02-17-2006 at 01:31 AM.. |
02-17-2006, 02:16 AM | #186 (permalink) | |
Myrmidon
Location: In the twilight and mist.
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I believe that, but admit it, your terrified of moses, you're scared shitless that at any moment he will descend and reign blows upon you while laughing maniacally.
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Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read. |
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02-17-2006, 02:21 AM | #187 (permalink) |
Myrmidon
Location: In the twilight and mist.
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I will say this in all seriousness tho, I like guns. I like all weapons. A lot. So much so in fact that I'm moving 2,000 miles to a place that is much more gun friendly. If things change there I'll move somewhere else, until I run out of places to goto, then there will be a problem.
I carry a firearm every day, it's not something I take lightly outside of jest, every one of us has a duty to our loved ones to fight kill and die with the most effective tools necessary to defend life and liberty. To not do so, to me is unfathomable and in many cases unexcusable. Inherent in the ability to kill is the ability to save life, imo.
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Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read. |
02-17-2006, 05:11 AM | #188 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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MAHATMA GANDHI, PEACEFUL REVOLUTIONARY “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-17-2006, 06:48 AM | #190 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Gonzales LA police above state law and supreme court
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-17-2006, 06:49 AM | #191 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." — The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times) speaking at the "Educating Heart Summit" in Portland, Oregon, when asked by a girl how to react when a shooter takes aim at a classmate
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-17-2006, 02:03 PM | #192 (permalink) | |
Myrmidon
Location: In the twilight and mist.
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you see, this, more specifically, is what I am referring to when I talk about protecting yourself from the police. Every cop swears an oath to uphold the constitution, to violate it like that is treasonous. I think we all know what the penalty for treason is. In a pinch a tall tree and an extension cord will work just fine.
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Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read. |
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02-18-2006, 04:19 AM | #193 (permalink) | ||
Browncoat
Location: California
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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek |
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02-18-2006, 02:21 PM | #194 (permalink) | |
Twitterpated
Location: My own little world (also Canada)
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Let's say for example that you believe that everyone has the right to live without being insulted. There is no government at this time, of any sort. A man comes along who happens to believe that everyone has the right to say absolutely anything that they want. He insults you. Did he just violate human rights, or did he merely act upon human rights? The only way to define whether his action was in accordance with his rights as a human being is if there is a larger group, society represented by the government, who will decide. Otherwise, the man who insulted you had the right to do so, because he imposed it upon you. If you had a shotgun and you shot him for doing so, then it was you who had the right not to be insulted, because you imposed your will on him, in the form of punishment.
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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato |
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02-18-2006, 09:40 PM | #195 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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My comments were more about how the social fiction of the US Government defines itself in respect to the social fiction of Rights. It's about how the government, on paper, is allowed to function.
People say "If you want to ban guns, amend the constitution." This misses the fact that the government is not authorized to make laws infringing the Right of The People to bear arms any more than it is authorized to make laws forcing everyone to convert to Mormonism or to criminalize questioning the conduct of the Presidency. Freedom of speech is just as sacred a Right as owning a gun or being able to believe in whatever deity you prefer. Anything that can be done to gut the 2nd Amendment can be practiced equivalently on any other Right.
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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions |
02-19-2006, 06:51 AM | #196 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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maybe you could use a more realistic example.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-19-2006, 06:54 AM | #197 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-19-2006, 05:09 PM | #198 (permalink) | |
Twitterpated
Location: My own little world (also Canada)
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Let's say there is a government in place. Someone breaks into your house and steals your stereo. How do you know that you currently have the right to ownership of property, and to have your own private property? Because if you call the police (a branch of the government), people will come and enforce that right for you. Or speaking practically, women in certain poor nations do not have the right to free speech. You and I may believe that the right to free speech should be universal, but their circumstances (a government and social system that do not recognize a woman as having the right to free speech) state that they do not have that right.
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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato |
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02-19-2006, 05:18 PM | #199 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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whether someone breaks in to my house or not has no relevance to whether or not a government is in place. The government is not there to protect me, it is there as a 'reactive' force to administer justice. I still have the right to my own private property and its privacy as well as the right to protect it from someone who would break in and steal it. With a government in place, they only have the right to prosecute as 'the people' to provide justice and show the criminal element that 'the people' speak with one voice against those that violate those individual rights. Quote:
This is the problem with alot of peoples thinking. The government is not there to provide, protect, or promote our own individual rights, we do that. That is what is so important about the 2A, when the government decides that it's power is more important than our rights, we can tell them 'not so much'.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-19-2006, 05:46 PM | #200 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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It's really not that simple. I honestly believe that the state does NOT have the right to take a persons life, a.k.a. capitol punishment. I have a friend who swears it's the right of the people to have justice and remove the evil from the world by killing those we have proven guilty. Who's right?
Rights are relative, and the rights that we practice now have more to do with the history of government and less to do with philosophy or morality. |
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bans, francisco, handguns, ownership, san |
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