A question to you sword people out there... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

daswig · 10-13-2004, 11:09 PM

do y'all train with swords as a means of self-defense, or as a ritualized practice discipline like a martial arts Kata, or what?

I've seen the results of a guy taking one of those cheesy $40 "samurai swords" to a fight, erroneously thinking the other guy was unarmed. Tweren't pretty...

Fire · 10-14-2004, 12:39 AM

Personally, I train to become familliar with the practical aplication of the products that I make and sell- never take a knife to a gunfight is pretty standard, and I own several guns, and an assault rifle for good measure- That said, however, Swords are an effective killing impliment in close quarters- say ten feet or less- beyond that you are S.O.L.- being a diabetic who's eyes can be great one day, and crappy the next, I have not the best luck with firearms, and as I sell swords for a living, they are everywhere around the house, there is literally one or more in every room, within easy reach- also adding to this equation is the fact that in my house, most of the rooms are fairly small, and except for the stretch from the far end of the living room to the front door, there is no where that I cannot cover in one lunge- (yes I have checked) those points factored in, the current plan for home defence is for the wife to grab the ak-47 while I grab my sword and short handled battle axe- I can huck the axe with fair accuracy, and even a hit with the handle will cause problems for most anyone- at that point I should be close enough that i can disarm any potential threats (literally)
Also to consider, While a gun is a far more efficient weapon if you are proficient, even trained law enforcement only scores about a 40% hit rate with firearms at 20 feet or less during stressfull real world situations- lately been talking with a friend that runs the local Close Quarter Combatives class- trains swat, and military along with people off the street- they use airsofts to simulate real world situ's and he said that it is amazing how one can miss ( and how even well trained people do) even at real close ranges- for this reason I belive that anyone seeking to use a gun for home defense should learn retenion techniques, as well as train for CQB conditions- as to the case you cite- what fucking idiot takes a sword to a fight- any advantage you might have is eliminated when your opponent starts shooting at you from 100 feet away- or just jumps his car and runs you the fuck over - To sum up I belive that musashi was right when he suggested that the best weapon to have in a fight was the one best suited for the situation-

Mag188 · 10-14-2004, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire

current plan for home defence is for the wife to grab the ak-47 while I grab my sword and short handled battle axe-

wow who do u expect to knock on your door? the special forces?

personally i like sword training for the same reasons others like kyudo, with time you will achieve some kind of meditative concentration where the only things in your mind are you and your enemy (unfortunately i've not developed that kind of discipline yet ... no idea if i'll ever get there)

i agree with fire that the best weapon to have in a fight is the one best suited for the situation, but i don't think that swords are good weapons for self defence because it's hard to conceal them, or do u want to wear a sword on your belt the whole day?

daswig · 10-14-2004, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire

Also to consider, While a gun is a far more efficient weapon if you are proficient, even trained law enforcement only scores about a 40% hit rate with firearms at 20 feet or less during stressfull real world situations-

That's why God invented submachineguns and slings.

JJRousseau · 10-14-2004, 08:22 AM

I started training with a sword because my martial arts instructor told me it would improve my empty-hand forms. And he was right. Now I do it just for enjoyment. But take one to a fight? What's the point?

SirSeymour · 10-14-2004, 09:18 AM

I work with one for fitness, to improve the look of my stage combat and because I am tired of getting my ass kicked when I get together with a number of friends to spare with blades. It is not really something I do for home defense...for that I have a 12 guage pump shotgun.

There is little that is as gratifying as going 1 on 1 in some competition (regardless of what the competition may be) with a worthy opponent. I happen to like sword play as one of those competitions so training is necessary.

longbough · 10-14-2004, 12:25 PM

Swords are fun.

daswig · 10-14-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longbough

Swords are fun.

Well, yeah. Good point. You're sharp to pick up on that.

longbough · 10-14-2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

Well, yeah. Good point. You're sharp to pick up on that.

I have my share of bladed impliments and have some martial arts training (Choi Le Fut Kung Fu, Shin-moo Hapkido and TKD). I'm not ashamed to admit that swords are just fun to study and spin around. But, in a defensive situation, I'd reach for my HK USPc .45 before anything else.

Moonduck · 10-14-2004, 06:48 PM

You'd reach for a pistol before anything else? How odd. Even I would rather have my Mossberg 590 or Ruger Mini-14 than any of my handguns, and I am a handgun nut.

That said, sword training is good for many reasons. Physical conditioning, useful training in footwork and mobility, outside-of-the-box thinking from taking a totally different style, and, at worst, it is better to be trained with a sword if you have one at hand than not. You never know when a long blade will be around and a gun won't.

albazeroex · 10-14-2004, 07:18 PM

i have a bokken, iaito, and a katana... dun hit anything with the iaito though... hit stuff with the big stick aka bokken

;; i dun have quick access to my katana tho;; its downstairs;; iaito is in my room and my bokken is here in my dorm

as long as it doesnt count as a weapon my university cares less about me having it

Fire · 10-15-2004, 07:31 AM

in answer to Mag188- My wife had to testify against the Aryan Brotherhood once- and got death threats for it- one of them testified at the trial that they had tried to blow her up with a bomb twice- the bomb failed to go off both times- in short they are not the special forces, and it has been 5 years since the event, but if they decide to look her up then at least we will take a number of them with us........

TheBoy · 10-16-2004, 03:19 PM

I just collect them
I don't train with them

longbough · 10-17-2004, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonduck

You'd reach for a pistol before anything else?

(har.har.) Yes, I would. If my AR or my 870 was always within arm's reach I'd go for one of those - but that's not the case.
On the other hand, there's a USPc, a Glock 23 or a BHP within a few feet of me at most times.
Heck, I can always shoot my way to my long guns, right?

Mag188 · 10-18-2004, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire

in answer to Mag188- My wife had to testify against the Aryan Brotherhood once- and got death threats for it- one of them testified at the trial that they had tried to blow her up with a bomb twice- the bomb failed to go off both times- in short they are not the special forces, and it has been 5 years since the event, but if they decide to look her up then at least we will take a number of them with us........

i'm sorry, I hope I havn't offended you

hudson27 · 10-18-2004, 09:19 AM

I train in Aikido and the basic sword form was included with the typical grappling techniques. I don't own any, I bought a wooden bokken so that I didn't beat up the Dojo's stock. I guess one thing I liked was that it was challenging, a lot harder than I thought it would be. It does help your form, you really notice your bad habits when holding a weapon. As for using one in real life, not unless I had it in my hand when I am attacked(which I hope is never

). I'd rather throw the chair that I'm sitting on rather than trust my sword skills against an armed attacker, but that's just me.

JJRousseau · 10-18-2004, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hudson27

I'd rather throw the chair that I'm sitting on rather than trust my sword skills against an armed attacker, but that's just me.

Well said!

Fire · 10-19-2004, 08:47 PM

Mag 188 no offence taken- actually found it somewhat ammusing- most people don't have my kind of situation come up in life- and were it not for that unusual situation, my home defense situation would seem to me to be somewhat paranoid, but since they really are (or were) out to get us, it just seems like a prudent precaution, just in case........actually have a buddy who is a cop who has stated that he really feels sorry for any poor bastard who just tries a break in, given the fact that we plan to treat all unauthorized intruders the same

daswig · 10-19-2004, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire

my home defense situation would seem to me to be somewhat paranoid, but since they really are (or were) out to get us, it just seems like a prudent precaution...

Two points: First, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. Second, paranoia is it's own reward.

I'm still alive because I'm a paranoid motherfarker.

Fire · 10-21-2004, 07:49 PM

agreed- paranoia is sometimes a damn good idea- If my wifes mom had more she might still be alive-I would have liked to meet her.....

MSD · 10-22-2004, 10:18 AM

To go back to the original question, I have practiced to the point that I can use my decorative samurai sword for defence (as well as to trim hedges,) and I use a fencing foil in order to focus on minute muscle movements; it's amazing to see how much it has improved my hand-eye coordination, as I have a fine motor skill disablitiy. I can lunge and put it through a keyring fairly reliably.

2sheds · 10-26-2004, 11:36 AM

japanese iaido, which is basically the art of reacting to a sudden attack with a swift counter-attack (in this case, with a sword) carries over pretty well into all forms of self defence, both armed and unarmed. it's about controlling your body, and acting in a quick and decisive way in the face of a threat. the principles can be applied to everything from the open hand, to drawing and firing a pistol from concealment.

Fire · 10-26-2004, 05:06 PM

I also have to agree with the above post- If you want to improve your instinctive shooting, and your draw and target aquisition skills, then look at iaido- I was amazed how much the technique, the means of teaching and style, resemble the teaching methods of thunder ranch and gunsite- this was what really opened my eyes to the fact that there is no real difference at the heart, between the practice of a shooters skills, or a swordsmans, or an empty hand practitioner- all of it trains your mind and body to react in proper ways to an attack or dangerous situation......what is wierd is that in recent years we have gotten into the mindset that there is a gulf between "traditional martial arts" and modern weapons training- both have the same purpose, is it any wonder that one aids the other?

johnsimon885 · 10-30-2004, 04:35 PM

I've been studying kendo for a few years (the martial art of the samurai sword, the katana) which is a nonlethal sport which is huge in Japan. I don't actually own a sword, but if I got into iaido I would have to get one to train with.

In either case, this is the first thing I learned about defending myself with one:

"If you are attacked and you happen to have a katana with you, drop it, and run as fast as you can the other way. The sword will just slow you down. That is the bet defense"

So no, it's not practical. And honestly, when would you have one with you? And where would you have room to swing it? I need a good 12 feet or so of headroom to practice in...and really, you're training to attack someone else who ALSO has a katana. Unless you're in feudal japan a few centuries ago, the odds of that happening are not very good. If you're trying to defend yourself, you need a pair of track shoes or a pistol, probably.

-John

albazeroex · 10-30-2004, 06:24 PM

i usually have a 3.25in folder on me;; obviously taking out the thing would not be like my iaido training but still secure for a person like me;; and since i cant legally run around with a pistol; thats my secondary defense other than my fists and my running skills;; and true; normal u would never be caught running around with a katana in plain view;; but my years of kendo and iaido have gotten me used to using anything from a pipe to a stick like a katana

TheKak · 10-31-2004, 03:10 AM

You may not have a katana with you, but your skills would carry over to other objects. Like a bat, broken broom stick, 2x4's, pipes, axe handle...and so forth. It is one of the reasons I took Kali, not because I plan to always have a stick/knife on me, but because you can grab almost anything and apply the same skills in using it as a weapon.

Fire · 10-31-2004, 10:03 PM

in answer to johnsimon885- you have to practice in your house, and learn which strikes you can and cannot expect to do- you have to train specificly for close quarters, and if you do, a sword is far from worthless- I would never have one on the street of course, but what the kak says does hold true- training carries over to improvised items quite well- as to dropping my weapon- great idea, now you are being pursued by an armed attacker..... and you are out ythe cost of your sword.....

johnsimon885 · 10-31-2004, 11:41 PM

That's true, I have seen a lot of similarly shaped objects appear better for hitting things in my mind after starting training! Though if a guy armed with a gun came at me and I wasn't sneaking up behind him, I'm not sure I'd like my odds.

One thing it WILL do for you is put you in great psychological shape, though! Everyone should do a little kendo training

queedo · 02-16-2005, 08:26 PM

I take Iaido "as a ritualized practice discipline" to help develop better concentration and discipline skills. I would never fight anyone with a sword unless of course I realized that "There must be only one." But seriously it is an art form to me and you have to be very disciplined with great concentration to be any good at it. And most guys with those $40 Katanas don't take it for the same reasons I just mentioned.

10-13-2004, 11:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
daswig Banned Location: BFE	A question to you sword people out there... do y'all train with swords as a means of self-defense, or as a ritualized practice discipline like a martial arts Kata, or what? I've seen the results of a guy taking one of those cheesy $40 "samurai swords" to a fight, erroneously thinking the other guy was unarmed. Tweren't pretty...

10-14-2004, 12:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	Personally, I train to become familliar with the practical aplication of the products that I make and sell- never take a knife to a gunfight is pretty standard, and I own several guns, and an assault rifle for good measure- That said, however, Swords are an effective killing impliment in close quarters- say ten feet or less- beyond that you are S.O.L.- being a diabetic who's eyes can be great one day, and crappy the next, I have not the best luck with firearms, and as I sell swords for a living, they are everywhere around the house, there is literally one or more in every room, within easy reach- also adding to this equation is the fact that in my house, most of the rooms are fairly small, and except for the stretch from the far end of the living room to the front door, there is no where that I cannot cover in one lunge- (yes I have checked) those points factored in, the current plan for home defence is for the wife to grab the ak-47 while I grab my sword and short handled battle axe- I can huck the axe with fair accuracy, and even a hit with the handle will cause problems for most anyone- at that point I should be close enough that i can disarm any potential threats (literally) Also to consider, While a gun is a far more efficient weapon if you are proficient, even trained law enforcement only scores about a 40% hit rate with firearms at 20 feet or less during stressfull real world situations- lately been talking with a friend that runs the local Close Quarter Combatives class- trains swat, and military along with people off the street- they use airsofts to simulate real world situ's and he said that it is amazing how one can miss ( and how even well trained people do) even at real close ranges- for this reason I belive that anyone seeking to use a gun for home defense should learn retenion techniques, as well as train for CQB conditions- as to the case you cite- what fucking idiot takes a sword to a fight- any advantage you might have is eliminated when your opponent starts shooting at you from 100 feet away- or just jumps his car and runs you the fuck over - To sum up I belive that musashi was right when he suggested that the best weapon to have in a fight was the one best suited for the situation- __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

10-14-2004, 09:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
SirSeymour Ambling Toward the Light Location: The Early 16th Century	I work with one for fitness, to improve the look of my stage combat and because I am tired of getting my ass kicked when I get together with a number of friends to spare with blades. It is not really something I do for home defense...for that I have a 12 guage pump shotgun. There is little that is as gratifying as going 1 on 1 in some competition (regardless of what the competition may be) with a worthy opponent. I happen to like sword play as one of those competitions so training is necessary. __________________ SQL query SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0 Zero rows returned....

10-15-2004, 07:31 AM	#12 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	in answer to Mag188- My wife had to testify against the Aryan Brotherhood once- and got death threats for it- one of them testified at the trial that they had tried to blow her up with a bomb twice- the bomb failed to go off both times- in short they are not the special forces, and it has been 5 years since the event, but if they decide to look her up then at least we will take a number of them with us........ __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

10-19-2004, 08:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	Mag 188 no offence taken- actually found it somewhat ammusing- most people don't have my kind of situation come up in life- and were it not for that unusual situation, my home defense situation would seem to me to be somewhat paranoid, but since they really are (or were) out to get us, it just seems like a prudent precaution, just in case........actually have a buddy who is a cop who has stated that he really feels sorry for any poor bastard who just tries a break in, given the fact that we plan to treat all unauthorized intruders the same __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

10-14-2004, 08:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
JJRousseau Psycho Location: Vancouver, Canada	I started training with a sword because my martial arts instructor told me it would improve my empty-hand forms. And he was right. Now I do it just for enjoyment. But take one to a fight? What's the point?

10-14-2004, 12:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
longbough Soylent Green is people. Location: Northern California	Swords are fun.

10-14-2004, 06:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	You'd reach for a pistol before anything else? How odd. Even I would rather have my Mossberg 590 or Ruger Mini-14 than any of my handguns, and I am a handgun nut. That said, sword training is good for many reasons. Physical conditioning, useful training in footwork and mobility, outside-of-the-box thinking from taking a totally different style, and, at worst, it is better to be trained with a sword if you have one at hand than not. You never know when a long blade will be around and a gun won't.

10-14-2004, 07:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
albazeroex Upright	i have a bokken, iaito, and a katana... dun hit anything with the iaito though... hit stuff with the big stick aka bokken ;; i dun have quick access to my katana tho;; its downstairs;; iaito is in my room and my bokken is here in my dorm as long as it doesnt count as a weapon my university cares less about me having it

10-16-2004, 03:19 PM	#13 (permalink)
TheBoy Upright	I just collect them I don't train with them

10-18-2004, 09:19 AM	#16 (permalink)
hudson27 Upright Location: Canada	I train in Aikido and the basic sword form was included with the typical grappling techniques. I don't own any, I bought a wooden bokken so that I didn't beat up the Dojo's stock. I guess one thing I liked was that it was challenging, a lot harder than I thought it would be. It does help your form, you really notice your bad habits when holding a weapon. As for using one in real life, not unless I had it in my hand when I am attacked(which I hope is never ). I'd rather throw the chair that I'm sitting on rather than trust my sword skills against an armed attacker, but that's just me.

10-21-2004, 07:49 PM	#20 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	agreed- paranoia is sometimes a damn good idea- If my wifes mom had more she might still be alive-I would have liked to meet her..... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

10-22-2004, 10:18 AM	#21 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	To go back to the original question, I have practiced to the point that I can use my decorative samurai sword for defence (as well as to trim hedges,) and I use a fencing foil in order to focus on minute muscle movements; it's amazing to see how much it has improved my hand-eye coordination, as I have a fine motor skill disablitiy. I can lunge and put it through a keyring fairly reliably.

10-26-2004, 11:36 AM	#22 (permalink)
2sheds Crazy Location: dfw - texas	japanese iaido, which is basically the art of reacting to a sudden attack with a swift counter-attack (in this case, with a sword) carries over pretty well into all forms of self defence, both armed and unarmed. it's about controlling your body, and acting in a quick and decisive way in the face of a threat. the principles can be applied to everything from the open hand, to drawing and firing a pistol from concealment. __________________ Depression is just anger without enthusiasm. It’s having an empty beer bottle but no one to throw it at.

10-26-2004, 05:06 PM	#23 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	I also have to agree with the above post- If you want to improve your instinctive shooting, and your draw and target aquisition skills, then look at iaido- I was amazed how much the technique, the means of teaching and style, resemble the teaching methods of thunder ranch and gunsite- this was what really opened my eyes to the fact that there is no real difference at the heart, between the practice of a shooters skills, or a swordsmans, or an empty hand practitioner- all of it trains your mind and body to react in proper ways to an attack or dangerous situation......what is wierd is that in recent years we have gotten into the mindset that there is a gulf between "traditional martial arts" and modern weapons training- both have the same purpose, is it any wonder that one aids the other? __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

10-30-2004, 04:35 PM	#24 (permalink)
johnsimon885 Tilted	I've been studying kendo for a few years (the martial art of the samurai sword, the katana) which is a nonlethal sport which is huge in Japan. I don't actually own a sword, but if I got into iaido I would have to get one to train with. In either case, this is the first thing I learned about defending myself with one: "If you are attacked and you happen to have a katana with you, drop it, and run as fast as you can the other way. The sword will just slow you down. That is the bet defense" So no, it's not practical. And honestly, when would you have one with you? And where would you have room to swing it? I need a good 12 feet or so of headroom to practice in...and really, you're training to attack someone else who ALSO has a katana. Unless you're in feudal japan a few centuries ago, the odds of that happening are not very good. If you're trying to defend yourself, you need a pair of track shoes or a pistol, probably. -John

10-30-2004, 06:24 PM	#25 (permalink)
albazeroex Upright	i usually have a 3.25in folder on me;; obviously taking out the thing would not be like my iaido training but still secure for a person like me;; and since i cant legally run around with a pistol; thats my secondary defense other than my fists and my running skills;; and true; normal u would never be caught running around with a katana in plain view;; but my years of kendo and iaido have gotten me used to using anything from a pipe to a stick like a katana

10-31-2004, 03:10 AM	#26 (permalink)
TheKak Insane Location: Virginia	You may not have a katana with you, but your skills would carry over to other objects. Like a bat, broken broom stick, 2x4's, pipes, axe handle...and so forth. It is one of the reasons I took Kali, not because I plan to always have a stick/knife on me, but because you can grab almost anything and apply the same skills in using it as a weapon. __________________ Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

10-31-2004, 10:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	in answer to johnsimon885- you have to practice in your house, and learn which strikes you can and cannot expect to do- you have to train specificly for close quarters, and if you do, a sword is far from worthless- I would never have one on the street of course, but what the kak says does hold true- training carries over to improvised items quite well- as to dropping my weapon- great idea, now you are being pursued by an armed attacker..... and you are out ythe cost of your sword..... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

10-31-2004, 11:41 PM	#28 (permalink)
johnsimon885 Tilted	That's true, I have seen a lot of similarly shaped objects appear better for hitting things in my mind after starting training! Though if a guy armed with a gun came at me and I wasn't sneaking up behind him, I'm not sure I'd like my odds. One thing it WILL do for you is put you in great psychological shape, though! Everyone should do a little kendo training

02-16-2005, 08:26 PM	#29 (permalink)
queedo Shodan	I take Iaido "as a ritualized practice discipline" to help develop better concentration and discipline skills. I would never fight anyone with a sword unless of course I realized that "There must be only one." But seriously it is an art form to me and you have to be very disciplined with great concentration to be any good at it. And most guys with those $40 Katanas don't take it for the same reasons I just mentioned. __________________ If you think you can or you can't, you are right!