kinsaj

I know that this stuff is some nasty shit. A friend told me that it will turn sand into molten glass. I read some instructions online as to how to do this and they went through the whole thing of making rust and such.

After I made the rust... and let it settle in the jar, it turned black and not red.. as it should. I then cooked it in an old pot (as instructed) to try to make it turn color... it didnt. I ended up with some black powder... and im scared as shit to burn it because its not as described in the documentation.
I'm wondering if the pot has to be iron to cook it (The instructions say iron, but not otherwise).

Thanks.

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boom

debaser

Just buy some iron oxide and aluminium from a scientific supply store. Far easier and much more pure than doing it yourself.

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Fire

Thermite is rather hard to ignite, and many of the web recipies are "broken" - but done right this stuff is insanely dangerous, and will happily burn through metal, and just about anything you wanna put holes in- I looked into the stuff a few years ago, for the purposes of cutting steel, as i did not have a torch or plasma cutter at the time- but then got access to a torch and decided I liked my extremities without horrible burn scars, so dropped the project- you may wish to reconsidder playing around with the stuff the military uses to kill tanks and bunkers...... but if not I recommend going to a reputable source on the industrial uses of thermite, and being damn careful- remember, backyard anarchists can severly fuck up property values, and thus cops tend to frown on this type of "experiment"

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MSD

Thermite is not a toy. It will melt through whatever you put it on, whatever that is on, and then down into the ground. It's a bad idea to try. By doing this you agree to not hold TFP or its staff accountable when you burn your finger off.

Also, keep it legal, don't start talking about making explosives and stuff like that. If this thread looks like it will get out of hand or go in that direction, it's gone.

kel

So how about that recipe for napalm in the anarchist's cookbook. The original ;-)

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kinsaj

Thanks for all the input.

I could purchase the stuff online, in fact, I have even located a source. I simply thought that it would be a little fun to make it on my own.

And to MrSelfDestruct: I have no intention of holding the TFP responsible for any of MY OWN actions... I realize that you have to place such messages to cover the TFP's ass. I think that it is absolutely horrible that somebody would blame somebody else for their own actions... Just my two cents.

And to kel: Napalm?... what about it? seems a bit useless. Even more so than thermite. And there isnt much science behind it, just gas that burns a bit longer w/ crap dissolved in it.

I am not simply doing this to watch stuff burn. I truly wish to learn something as to what is going on with the reaction.

Perhaps it was a mistake to place this thread in the weaponry forum where it does not really belong. Too late. Oh well.

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boom

shakran

All real napalm is is half gas and half oil. The internet "anarchist" kiddies claim it's gas and styrofoam or gas and soap. Dunno what that crap is, but it's not real napalm They seem to think it's cool to make it really thick so you can glop some on the end of a stick and try to convince people you're cool.

The oil thickens it up just enough to make it a "splash incindiary." They used a crapload of this stuff in Viet-Nam. You can drop a napalm bomb on one hut and the thing splashes flaming glop on anything that happens to be nearby.

I've found it's rather effective in gopher holes, although it requires some extra thickening so it'll flow through the tunnels without soaking into the dirt. All you need is to pour the napalm in the hole and then drop a match in. Burns fast, burns messy (lots of nice thick black smoke), and scares the crap out of the gophers. They don't return for several years, at which point you just make more napalm.

Herogien

Dont quote me on this but I believe that real napalm is not oil and gas, it is a mixture of a gasoline and a soap base with high quantities of phosphates, this is what makes naplam so scary... Not only does it splash on impact with target area cuasing collateral damage, the soap base sticks to and starts to burn whatever it comes in contact with. Napalm is classified as a Class D fire with means that it can not be extinguished with foam or water. It must burn itself out... Hence you get this shit on you and dive into the local pool your still gonna burn, baby

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kinsaj

okay.. hate to do this

please stick to the original question:
Do I need a cast iron pot to cook the rust for thermite?

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boom

shakran

ok, are you saying you only made rust? Because thermite isn't just rust, it's rust mixed with aluminum. 3 parts rust to 1 part aluminum. This is thermite, but it's not useful because it will separate as soon as it starts burning. You need to mix it with sulphur, but the thermite must be heated for the sulphur to bind. Set your oven to 325, and heat the rust/aluminum mix for awhile. When it's hot, sprinkle the sulphur over it and mix very well, then put it back in the oven for a few minutes to melt the sulphur. Mix again, then put it into your containers.

This stuff won't light by itself - it requires 2,000 degrees F to get it going, so you need to make a first fire mix. 5 parts potassium nitrate, 3 parts fine ground aluminum, and 2 parts sulfur. Mix thoroughly and combine with 1 part finely powdered ferro thermite. You put this stuff on top of the thermite and light it. It heats up and lights the thermite.
It doesn't really matter what you cook the thermite in. Teflon pots are fine even - in fact one variation of thermite uses teflon as an ingredient.

(this is what i was doing in jr. high when everyone else was playing nintendo


(edit)

btw, this stuff is pretty much useless as a weapon so if that's why you're making it, don't bother

it's very good at heating things up to obscene temperatures, so if you just feel like wrecking stuff, this is your compound.

kinsaj

Thank you, shakran... this is what I was looking for.
I am aware of the aluminum ingredient and the necesity for high temperatures to light. I did not know about the sulphur.
And as previously mentioned, I am not planning on doing this as a weapon.

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newmanator

i was told by a old wise source that if making your own a bit of sawdust in the mix helps out, he made some at one point by accident cleaning up some house hold stuff he was doing. but yeah, pretty nasty shit, can eat through a ton of stuff if made right.

chef001_2003

nasty doesn't cover thermite placed on the hood of a car it will melt through the engine and then the axel.

BTW even with pure iron oxide and aluminum powder it is still very hard to get the mix right. a chemistry teacher and i tried to make it once so we could do the experiment for class but even with a chemical balanced equation and porper molar amounts and a strip of magnesium it wouldn't light.

so good luck and be carefull

j8ear

Slightly off topic, but is it illegal to talk about making explosives? Recipes and what not?

Just curious.

I definately concur with the precautions otherwise. Respect for those things which can damage is always appropriate.

-bear

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MSD

I think we're still legal here. Trust me, as soon as the line is crossed, this thread will disappear faster than beer at a frat party.

Moonduck

Shakran, are you possibly thinking of Pooh-Gas? I remember a friend's Dad talking about making Pooh-Gas in Nam (so called because of "pooh" sound it made as it went up). He described it as different from napalm and easier to make, but (smart bastard that he was) wouldn't tell us how to produce it. The characteristics of the mixture you're talking about sound more like pooh-gas than napalm, which I've always heard described as gelled gasoline.

And thermite is some scary stuff. Played around just a little bit with it in High School chemistry class. Didn't get it right but still managed to wreck a lab table with a tiny amount. Scary, scary stuff.

shakran

yeah, it's legal to talk about making explosives. It's technically legal to talk about making anything, even a nuclear bomb. It's usually illegal to ACT on the knowledge that you gained, however. Thermite is probably another story though, because it's not really an explosive. It's just something that burns hotter'n hell


Hmm. i don't think so. I'm pretty sure that every recipe for napalm I've ever read has been half gas, half oil. That's how I make it (I add styrofoam when I'm pouring it down gopher holes to make it even thicker so it won't sink into the ground). I know some 'nam vets though, and I'll ask them - - -I've frankly never heard of pooh gas, and a quick GIS only returns methane-oriented chemicals

And you're right. Thermite scares the crap outa me. I made some in my childhood pyro days just to try it out. Lit just a TINY little bit of it and watched it destroy the $500 Craftsman tool chest that my dad had just gotten for christmas. Yeah. Took a long time for him to get over that one.

JStrider

ive heard you can use magnesium strips to light the thermite... its supposed to be easier to light and burn really hot...

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Moonduck

I'm probably misspelling it. *shrug* Never saw it in print, just heard it talked about, so I dunno if there's a technical name for it. The recipes I've seen for napalm usually involve soap or styrofoam.

cylune

If you do go the magnesium strips route, do not look at the flame. When I made it I used plain iron filings instead of iron oxide, and mixed on a 1 to 1 ratio. It kinda lit, but not really. I have much more fun just lighting the magnesium and dropping it onto random objects.

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tritium

As far as legalities...

raisethefist.com

Check the lawsuit pending on that guy. Best to make all bomb-related threads go the way of the dinosaurs.

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Blah.

BoomTruck

Techically, you can call any thread about thermite a welding discussion, seeing as that is one of it's primary proper uses.

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dimbulb

All this just sounds like a recipe for the days when i flip on the news or read the newspaper, and read about the dumbasses who crippled themselves or burnt down their homes playing with pyrotecnics.

I strongly suggest actually knowing the chemistry behind the reactions. Know exactly what is it that each ingredient does. Know how much heat/damage it's going to cause. Is it going to produce a lot of gases FAST (making it explosive... ). What is your backup plan in case you lose control of the reaction? WTF are you supposed to do when you get some on your skin.... Are you wearing appropriate body protection? especially eye protection?

if any of the above answers are no..... you'd better make sure you have a damn good insurance policy.

DelayedReaction

According to various sources around the internet, thermite is composed of aluminum powder and iron (III) oxide. Apparently getting iron (III) oxide is very important, as that's the only one that will burn.

The activation energy of thermite is so hight at you need something like a magnesium strip to light it. So take your little can of thermite, stick a strip of magnesium in it, and light with a blowtorch.

Remember, this stuff burns at around 3000K. And it burns for quite some time. So assume that this stuff will burn straight down for quite some time; any pipes or conduit underneath you will be burned through as this stuff sinks through the ground.

God bless Chemistry.

[EDIT] Oh cool, you can buy both of these compounds online. A pound of both is about $20 or so at www.skylighter.com, but you have to be 21 to buy aluminum powder.[/EDIT]

Good thing I am...

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Redjake

I heard you could make this stuff and put it on the hood of a car and it would burn straight through to the ground

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shakran

There are several substances that can do this.

And of course it depends on the car. A match would do it to a Saturn

apeman

it would go through the hood no problem, I reckon you'd need quite a large quantity to go through the engine block though ...

I remember this being done in school, in a fume cupboard. A test tube was filled with the mixture, a magnesium ribbon inserted as a fuse and whoosh! Quite exciting, but it didn't burn the school down

If I can still remember any chemistry, it'd be an exchange reaction - the iron has the oxygen but aluminium is much more reactive so it grabs it. You don't get to use the test tube for anything else afterwards by the way.

Fe2O3 + Al -> Al203 + Fe, that is
iron oxide + aluminium -> aluminium oxide + iron

so you've basically got molten iron dribbling around - don't get it on your fingers eh?

buying ingredients would almost certainly be a lot easier and better than making them. It shouldn't be too dangerous, but the three golden rules are:
1) use a small quantity to start with
2) use a long fuse
3) wear goggles, at least until you know what kind of fireworks are likely to happen

good luck anyway

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Lebell

I would STRONGLY encourage everyone to NOT do this at home.

Far too many amature chemists end up hurting themselves and others.

Yes, I do have professional training and I do know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

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apeman

that's very good advice Lebell!

the only trouble is people don't tend to listen to good advice I know I don't

I'll ask my chemistry teacher friend about it on Monday. We tried making nitroglycerine once - mercifully we didn't succeed...

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charlesesl

Sounds like a exothermic redox reaction.

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cheese

like every 16 year old kid that got picked on i read lots of verions on the Anarchist cookbook .. this is always included.. i never had the balls to try it my self but soem kids had done it in my area and indeed thrashed a car,

mofunk

I had a thermite obsession in high school. I kept making it and melting holes into plates of steel.

As I think back about it, it was pretty stupid. Interesting that I could make it, and the chemistry behind it rocks, but as a kid, I was so stupid.

mtsgsd

Reminds me of something I read regarding a shooting range that uses explosive targets.

During their research into the best material for the explosive, BATF told them that more people are killed making home made flash powder than anyone dealing with explosives, professional OR amature. And flash powder is so "simple" to make "anyone" can do it.

Lebell

If you are interested in legal and safe exploding targets, check out the Tannerite site:

http://www.tannerite.com/she_exploding_targets.html

I've never bought them ($98 for a few shots of fun seems pricey to me), but I know people who say it is a lot of fun if you don't mind blowing up your money...

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mtsgsd

If the target blows up, you don't know how well you did. Not interested. What was interesting was what this guy went thru to develop his own exploding target for his range. Explosive milk cartons, not paper targets.

Anyway, my point was that just because you can make it at home with every day ingredients, doesn't mean it's safe or even a good idea. Thermite seems to fall in that category.