zfleebin

Ever since the first time I shot an uzi I was in love with machine guns. I am particularly fascinated by H&K's mp5 and ump but I havent had a chance to shoot either. There are some pretty cool videos of these and other H&K weapons at:
http://www.hkpro.com/contents.htm

Anybody else like fully automatic weapons? Anybody shot any?

Moonduck

Neat, way too expensive to own. If you go with an MP-5, try and avoid the old-style straight stick magazines. The newer banana-style mags are WAY more reliable.

Lebell

Check out this thread:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...0&pagenumber=1

Anyway, I haven't shot an MP5 but it is on my list.

I agree tho that an Uzi is the shiznit.

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Stargazer01

The UMP is fun, only cause it comes in a .45 thats alot of stopping power!

Which matches one of the USP pistols they make. Just like F-N's 5-7 p90 and its matching handgun

canuma317

i also like full-auto weapons. the mp5-a2 is probably my favorite. as far as h+k goes, i like the 40cal.

MrFuzzy469

H&K's love the guns...hate the price!!!!

blockmaan2000

MG's?? Own a couple, but not HK's. I love the MP5, have shot several. The SD is the coolest, it's internally suppressed. My problem is why spend the $10K for an HK when I could get two Uzis or a Sterling and a Swedish K for the same money??


block

Jonnymax

I love HK handguns!

wouldnt mind a USC as well (only cause I cant get a UMP)

Elegant Holmes

Only shot HK pistols. My brother has a USP and my other brother has a P9. Love the guns but they are way too outta my reach.

Nachtschleicher

Yeah, I like H&K firearms. I have never fired one, but in the future I would love to own an MP5A5 and/or an MP5SD6 or a G36K. Those will be the first two fully automatic firearms I would want.

I like almost all of them, but my favorite would include the PSG-1 semi-auto sniper rifle, the already said MP5A5/SD6 and the HK21E machine gun (boy would that be fun! ).

If I could, I would own all of them, but I got to get rich first! Lol, yeah, I wish.

EDIT: Spelling

j8ear

I've had opportunity to place close to 30,000 rounds of nine mil through an mp-5.

It was of the telescoping stock variety, although we trained exclusively with stock extended. The weapon is tethered across the body where as when necked into your shoulder, tension is established throughout the webbing providing a sturdy shooters relief on the entire platform. It is a joy to shoot. Ours were equipped with powerful halogen bulbed spotlights embedded under the barrel, and activated by a pair of squeeze switches under your front hand.

Very pleasing ergonomically, even though our variety came in a rh config only, and I am a lh shooter. Consistently with this weapon, I could (we all could) pick off dimes* across a fifteen foot room while moving, and doing so to the tune of about 15 in 10-15 seconds. We rarely used the weapon in full auto mode, except for final defensive fire demonstrations.

The weapon is somewhat controllable at full auto, but so much is lost in efficiency and accuracy that it is almost never employed. 30 round mag gone in seconds. I honestly don't have much full auto experience aside from this weapon, so I have little to compare. We often used subsonic ammunition, which remained effective in the CQ (10-15 feet) environment. While the charge exploded, no sonic boom was delivered, making the sounds less likely to be distinguished as gun fire, or fuck up everyone's equilibrium inside the hull of a ship.

We experienced infrequent jamming issues with subsonic ammo, but it usually boiled down to a dirty weapon. One man in the team also carried a silenced mp-5sd. This exclusively fired the subsonic round and was routinely plagued with fouling issues. It was quiet though. We gave this guy the shotgun too.

Pinning for those days at sea.

-bear

*OK, quarter sized is more realistic, but come on...a distinguished marksmen can boast a little bit.

Edit: Various spelling, punctuation and adding the following:

I didn’t really mention my over all impression on H&K in general. As far as I am concerned, H&K maintains the top position on my list of companies specializing in every aspect of ballistics, machining, engineering, metallurgy, and firearms. Ruger is number two. The weapons we were provided by H&K were prototypes for a new t&e weapon to be deployed through out the Marine Corps. H&K’s engineers and gunsmiths were frequently on site, evaluating and tweaking their products to best suit our needs. Never seen anything like it. They have been making weapons of the finest quality, for a long time. Many, many innovations have come from the gunsmith’s of Heckler& Koch (delayed blow back, squeeze cocker, long range sniper rigs). If I’m not mistaken, several calibers have even emerged as a result of H&K’s doing. I could be wrong on this but one of you cats around here knows. Every H&K weapon I have operated was unmatched in quality, workmanship, and effectiveness. They are very expensive with out question. Since full auto/tactical assault weapons really aren’t in my bag of tricks these days, 10-15k seems silly. Although if 10-15k ever became but a drop in the bucket, an mp-5 or even a pdw (which is a really neat even smaller, full auto capable, machine pistol. Suited protection agents like them very much because of their concealability) might very well be a welcome addition to the arsenal.

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Nachtschleicher

J8ear, that's pretty cool, thanks for sharing. You were in the Corps? That's great. I'd join myself if I wasn't hard of hearing. I already asked twice, they said no. Even went to the Army, same response.

So were you in Force Recon, or something?

You all have a good 'un!

Moonduck

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Browning used Delayed Blowback (a feature of M1911, and a few of his other pieces prior to that) a bit earlier than H&K did. Was H&K even in existance in 1911? As to long-arms, the Thompson was the first long arm I am aware of to use Delayed Blowback, specifically purchsing the rights to the Blish Lock patent.

Not dogging H&K, they make awesome stuff. I've put many rounds through the USP that I bought for my mother. Just not sure why you would include Delayed Blowback as an H&K innovation. Admittedly, they did great things with it, especially on the G3, but how is it one of their innovations?

j8ear

My bad...I was always under the impression that the delayed blow-back design was quite exclusive to an MP-5 and it's derivatives in the CQ/sub machine gun realm. I could be wrong as I honestly have very little experience with anything like this weapon. Prior to the Corps, I had never fired a weapon in my life. The Uzi is open bolted, i believe, and operated quite differently from an MP-5 in that it crawls up a target.

This is an interesting unofficial history of H&K. http://huntingsociety.org/HistHK.html

best,

-bear

Not Force Recon, but a direct action detachment from 3rd Recon attached to the 5th MEB (USS Schenectady/Fort Fisher) during Desert Shield/Storm/Stay. Two glorious floats.

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Elegant Holmes

good on ya jBear. Thanks for your service!

sailor

Ill second that.

The marines are hardcore. I mountain bike with a pair of ex-marines, and they are the most hardcore guys I have ever met. Ive always maintained that the Marines were the most capable of our armed forces. Sounds like you had a good time and served well.

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Moonduck

Great link! They did make some innovative redesigns on the concept, and their actual locking system is excellent.

The MP-5 was pretty singluar. At the time of its' intro, most SMG's were, perforce, cheap things, designed to be produced in incredible numbers and put into service under harsh conditions with great reliability. Other performance was a secondary concern, with the idea being volume of fire instead of individual performance. Your training will have showed you the error of that mentality.

Now there were a number of well designed, high-end SMG's (the Thompson and Sterling come to mind), they were the exception, not the rule. The MP-5 managed to be a precision piece and still capable of being produced in large numbers (not as easily as a Sten or a PPSGh, but you ge ta lot of performance loss for that ease of manufacture). One of the biggest differences was that it fired from a closed bolt, something very few SMG's did back then.

BTW - considering what you get for your money, I don't really consider H&K weapons to be expensive. They're high-dollar, but also very high value. The USP is pretty much a steal at the prices that you can usually get it for.

Elegant Holmes

The Germans created the first assault rifle and the prototype for the M-60. It's lucky for all of the civilized world that they did not get away from the basic bolt action before the end of WWII. Don't like Nazi's, but their weapons are pretty cool....(I know not all Germans joined or agreed with the party, don't mean to turn this toward debate. I'm just saying as far as guns go the Germans are always on the edge and I really love HK's.)

j8ear

Gracias. Who knew they were Mauser ressurected? I remember your comment about the straight stick mags. The were really nice in the way they tucked into our vests. Comfortable with awesome weight distribution. Something about hugging the organs nicely. The springs often came right out of the bottom when loaded, and got sandwiched in the vest pocket. We had a shit load of them though. Some of us bought our own banana style fifties, but the vests weren't made for this magazine. Clanking around with a few loaded magazines in your cargo pocket was out of the question, not to mention that we wore flight suits anyway. Eight of them right on board. Two on the weapon. 240 plus sixty one. Locked and loaded.

They are apparently making this gun in 10mm and .40cal also, and that US Law enforcement is using them. I have yet to see one. Also, now that I research H&K after a long hiatus, it seems they sure are going high tech with polymer weapons, which I will ad, is not something I am fond of. Although I'll bet H&K has really done it well.

How much are those USP's going for? Over 5 hundge it seems, maybe even 6. Is the USP a polymer framed gun like a sigma? It ~appears~ that it is. How many metal brackets connect the polymer to the upper receiver? You like that thing, I presume? I was really thinking about the P7. The old sqeeze cocker auto's. It is favored by alot of special forces. Very compact, extemely precise, and with Germany's propensity for quality in those two very aspects of engineering things, delivered a doosey. This is a really neat website: http://www.pkcarroll.com/p7info.pdf (It's anyone's guess as to it's authenticity. I've fired, but never field stripped a p7)

It really is an area I dabbled in briefly a while ago (over ten years now), which I had never done before (I'm Canadian after all), and haven't done since. Aside from a Blackwater match, and a few IDPA wanna be fests, I'm but anecdotes about the experience. You know what I mean?

Reliving the old days of 'company sponsership' for weapons options is fruitless. Fun but fruitless. After all I am but a working class stiff these days. Unless your a police force or a military outfit, H&K is largely out if reach, and largely uncalled for. They sure are good at what they do, and for that I respect them, as I do anything, tremondously. Rethinking my position on top of the list, I will redact H&K and place them second. I do believe that Ruger as an all around firearms manufacturer is number one. It's a tough call, but I think I have to go with the outfit which specializes in the common person as opposed to gubment contracts.

If only I knew more about Sig Sauer. They do something very special to firearms creation.

over,

-bear

Moonduck

I gotta agree with the appreciation of the P7. I've lusted after 'em for years. The problem is that even a used P7 will run you 800-900 locally, whereas a new USP will run $500 or so. I picked one up for $325, a definite steal. Going from memory, there are four good-sized steel rails on top of the polymer frame. It looks unorthodox, but trust me when I say that it works. The USP shot better than my Sig 229 in .40, and was, in fact, the best shooting .40 I've ever shot (and that includes my S&W Performance Center Shorty Forty).

Overall, the USP is really a practical combat-oriented handgun. If you get a chance, put some rounds through one. Yo will likely appreciate it.

Oh yes, Sig. They do do something special to firearms creation. They give each and every gun a intense amount of personal attention, incluing live firing of each weapon prior to it leaving the factory (or at least they used to). My Sig came with the test-fire target (an excellent pattern), and the name and Inspector # of the person that QA'ed my gun. A couple of friends of mine also had SIgs and theirs came with the same target and QA note. That Sig, out of the box, had a better trigger than most gunsmith smoothed DA autopistols I've worked with. I'd trust my life to a Sig in a heartbeat, and am still on the lookout for a Sig 220 in .45acp.

j8ear

Sig makes a polymer framed 'pro' version that I might be able to talk my buddy into showing off. I wonder if he's got a line on a USP too?

I'll definately report back.

I've mused many times around here about sigs...and daggonit im always on the look out for finely crafted firearms too.

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Moonduck

As much as I'm defending polyer framed guns, I'm a tad iffy on the Sig Pro. The ones I've handled didn't seem to have triggers up to their usual high standards. Maybe it was just the two I looked at, or maybe I'm just predjudiced from owning an alloy framed Sig with an incredible trigger. No matter what, they're well made guns.

gal

I've used the H&K G3 (the Norwegian built one, AG3) Very reliable and powerful weapon. The MP5 is a soft gun in comparison.

Crack

Just curious, but what the hell would you do with an Uzi? the only thing I could think of would be duck hunting, but who REALLY needs that many ducks?
~Crack

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Moonduck

Hey! Watch the "duck hunting" comments, buster =)

What would you do with an Uzi? The same thing you would do with the vast number of guns in the world:

(In descending order accounting for % of time spent)

1) Store it (hopefully in a good safe)
2) Tinker with it (you spend more time maintaining any full-auto weaponry than their semi-auto cousins)
3) Shoot paper targets with it
4) Other statistically non-important activities

Uzis are 9mm usually, and 9mm is crap for hunting. At which point it is used for punching holes in paper, and nothing else. People that buy Uzis (in America at least) go through so many freakish legal hoops that they know damned well if any crime is committed with a full-auto weapon in the same calibre as there's, they might get yanked by the police on suss.

JohnS72

I think H&Ks are beautiful pieces of machinery. But I'll take the 1911 over any H&K (assuming we're talking about pistols here)

j8ear

I got a chance to operate a USP and a SigPro both in .40s&w on Sunday. I put fifty rounds through each. Not much, but enough to get a feel.

The USP was a POS rental gun and something about the mag release gave me a lot of trouble. I think that's what it was, as every string of fire I managed to loose the magazine, until I figured out how to use my right hand to hold the magazine in. The mag release is a little unique in that it is a lever instead of a button. I'm not sure if I was dropping the mag or the thing was in dire need of a cleaning and tuning and would just fall out? I really liked the safety/decocker, and am extremely fond of being able to keep the weapon cocked yet still on safe. The trigger was fluid with moderate slack, and a nice easy pull. Sights were accurate and groups were tight. About 2 inches at 25 feet excluding my regular jerked strays (about one per mag).

Very nice weapon indeed. Confirmed. H&K does NOT make junk.

The SigPro was similar in accuracy, and quality, and I actually like the trigger a little better. The slack was huge, at least an inch of pull, and distinctive pull weight difference was very discernable as the trigger approached discharge. It took some getting used to but I was able to get her dialed in. Plus this weapon has been meticulously cared for. It was definately no Alloy framed Sig, but it was definately a fine shooting weapon.

I'll see if I can get a picture of my 10 foot doping string and my 25 foot strings. I put all three (I had my Sigma on site as well) weapons on one target at both distances for comparison.

over,

-bear

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Moonduck

Almost definitely an overly worn lug on the internal end of the mag-release lever, or a badly worn mag (obviously you can rule out the mag if you had the same problems over multiple mags).

I'm glad to hear that the SigPro did well in shooting. I really think I didn't give it a fair shake in comparing it to my 229. I am also glad to hear that you took the time to shoot both. If you happen to buy either one, you will be well served by it.

You mentioned the Sigma, never have liked that piece. Then again, it probably goes back to the first time I handled one. Whomever had field-stripped it previously had reassembled it somehow incorrectly. I had no idea and slowly squeezed the trigger on the (verified empty) gun, only to have the whole slide eject itself off of the pistol with some force. The gunseller and I looked at each other for a second, and he took the gun back without a word. I think it coloured my opinion of the gun from then on.

31Friction

I shot an MP5 a few years ago, I can't give you the best advice on how great it was though. It's the only fully auto weapon I've ever shot :-\

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Blistex

Before I die I'm gonna have to somehow fire a few bursts from an MG-42, an UZI, and a MP5.

Those are the automatic weapons that I think are the highest in the "Fun Factor" category.

peeweesbigbong

uzi's also come with .45 and .22 conversion kits.

plus, these guys sell a couple H&K clones that are gettin better reviews than the original H&K's

www.vectorarms.com

Jonnymax

Clones of which models?

Mastershredder

Wow those clones look pretty good. Does Vector make any MP5 clones too? I just see the HK-53 clone.

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rat

Have alot of close friends of family and personal friends that have done served in a variety of capacities that employed H&K products:

Secret Service (Reagan and Big Bush's details--father's friend nicknamed "Nappy" for his last name Napolitano [spelling is off])
Force Recon (MCEP here at school who got re-activated and deployed to Afghanistan with the Force)
SEALs (former boss of mine who did his time and cross-trained with Army SF, Marine Force Recon and USAF Pararescue)
FBI HRT (friend's dad from back home)

I'm a big military buff as a hobby--I gave my try to join up, Army SF contract, fucked my elbow up a month before my ship date (ripped almost all the connective tissue in it--bending more than 10 degrees off straight was impossible) so that was a no-go. I also go to a university with a strong military tradition, so I have spent and do spend quite a bit of time talking to current/former military. I've heard alot of great things about the H&K products, their reliability and their accuracy. The only thing that came up was the quantity of parts involved when breaking one down and re-assembling. Not sure if they're still that part-intensive or if they've streamlined their equipment more.

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440sixpack

Well, here's my list of automatic weapons from our various machine gun shoots:

MG42
MG34
PKM
MAC-11
Micro-Uzi
HK91

The dealer described the HK91 as "a rowdy beast" and it sure was, I blasted the shit out of the lane marker hanging about 2 ft. in front of me when the recoil got the better of me.

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peeweesbigbong

clones of the H&K 93 and 53