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Old 11-19-2003, 09:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: "TX"
Revolvers vs. Automatics

I am certain this has come up before, but my half-assed search did not produce a thread. I have a .357 I can hit things with, but my .45 auto gives me a little trouble. They are both double action. Is it just me, or does anyone else find it easier to shoot with one type of handgun? I need to practice more often.
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Old 11-19-2003, 12:23 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Accuracy is the product of three things: the gun, the ammunition and practice.

Dealing specifically with the gun part of the equation, there are accurate revolvers and automatics just like there are inaccurate revolvers and automatics.

In my own case, I have a SIG P226 that is very accurate while it is hard to hit the side of a barn with my Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine. Yet, I have the same inaccuracy problem with my Kel Tec 9mm. The difference? Quality parts, tolerance of machining, design, etc.

So there is no set answer to your question.
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Old 11-19-2003, 02:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
Caveat: The following includes some basic info on handgun mechanics and operation. Most of you likely know this by heart, but I chose to go over it so as to prevent questions from those who might not know the concepts and terminology. Please bear with me.

The short answer is "It depends". Revolvers have a theoretically higher accuracy potential in the sense that they have less moving parts, less parts to line up, and the fact that one of those crucial non-moving parts in the barrel. Where the revolver tends to experience accuracy loss is at the forcing cone. The tolerances and angles must be extremely precise, else you throw accuracy to the winds. If a revolver's accuracy is off, it is usually at the forcing cone.

That said, automatics are perfectly capable of being extremely accurate. In fact, high end pistol competitions are usually held using autoloaders (most frequently .22lr, though IPSC and IDPA use full power centerfire loads in a variety of calibres). Given the nature of automatics, they simply have more moving parts, generally, than revolvers. More moving parts means greater chance for wear, and need for tighter quality control on the part of design and, more critically, manufacture.

The primary point of error in most automatics occurs at the front of the barrel. Most autos tend to be based on the Browning design popularized by the 1911 and later the P-35/Hi-Power (a superior example of John Browning's work, IMO). In the Browning Short Recoil design, the slide assembly moves rearward with the recoil of each shot. For a short distance, the barrel is locked to the slide via a cam or other mechanism. This allows time for the bullet to traverse the length of the barrel while the barrel is still in alignment with the slide. Once it has travelled back far enough (and the bullet given sufficient time to exit the barrel), the barrel will disengage from the slide and the rear will drop, allowing a new round to have a shorter vertical distance travelled during reload.

There is an area at the front of the slide (or the bushing, if the design calls for it, such as the 1911) that must precisely mate up with the barrel, as well as an area at the rear of the barrel (the lugs, or receiver block, or any number of other designs) that must also mate up precisely with the top (and sometimes side) of the slide. If tolerances and quality are poor in these areas, your gun will never shoot well (without extensive work by a qualified gunsmith).

Other factors that contribute to an autoloaders accuracy woes are poor slide-to-frame mating, poor trigger design (the only real flaw in the P-35 is the awful trigger quality imposed by the addition of the no-magazine safety), poor quality/design on the loading ramp at the rear of the barrel (causing inconsistencies in how the rounds seat), and other less common problems.

Given all that I've mentioned, you might wonder how autoloaders shoot well at all. The answer lies in a number of factors. First is that most people find the autoloaders to be more ergonomically friendly. Second, given the self-cocking nature of most autoloaders, the trigger is usually lighter than a revolver. Third, an awful lot of skull-sweat has been put into autoloaders given the real-world advantage of higher capacity than revolvers (on average, there are exceptions). Autoloader tech has advanced by leaps and bounds, yet we're still using designs that were first put to paper in the very early 1900's (most revolvers are based on the Smith & Wesson Triple lock), with very few design advances as seen in autos.

Additionally, one must be aware that every chamber in the cylinder of a revolver will perform slightly differently, leading to different shot-to-shot results. I've already mentioned forcing cone problems, but should also mention the added accuracy concerns raised by heavy double-action triggers.

That said, when comparing similar calibers, similar shooter competency, and similar conditions, I would say, anecdotally, that revolvers generally have the edge in out of the box accuracy over similarly priced autos in similar calibers. It has also been my experience that the vastly more simple manual of arms of a revolver makes it easier for a new shooter to learn on. The most accurate handgun I own is a S&W M-37 in .45ACP. Scarily accurate gun, especially considering it is a reimport used by the Brazilian police for 50+ years.

As a side note, Lebell, I have had trouble in the past with .30 Carbine guns. I would hazard to guess that it may have to do with poor round design, or poor quality ammo. Blackhawks are generally highly accurate guns, and the only ones I've ever heard as innaccurate were the .30 Carbine ones.

In general, accuracy troubleshooting can be done at home, but most accuracy increasing mods should be done by a qualified gunsmith. Rattle your auto side to side. If it actually does rattle, you have slide-to-frame or barrel-to-frame fit issues generally. Jiggle the end of the barrel when the slide is in battery (ie locked forward). If the barrel moves up and down, or side to die, you probably have a bushing or slide-to-barrel fit issue. If it moves back and forth independant of the slide, you likely have a lug-to-slide problem. Some play is usual, necessary in fact. If the gun does not have some play, tolerances will be too tight and carbon fouling or environmental concerns are likely to cause reliability problems.

Check out the gun. If you can find anything that concerns you, post it and I'll see if it is indicative of anything. Additionally, if you are consistent in your innaccuracy (ie it shoots low and to the left and sight mods don't help) let me know that as well. It is occassionally easy to fix these problems.

2nd caveat: I'm no gunsmith. I have taken courses in smithing and have worked with a smith locally on easy stuff, but I am no more than a highly interested hobbyist with a lot of experience.

Last edited by Moonduck; 11-19-2003 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 11-19-2003, 02:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Location: SE USA
Forgot to mention that there a re a number of fixed barrel automatics, and that they tend to be very accurate. Examples include those high-end autoloader competition pistols in .22lr mentioned above (Olympic style competition), Browning Buck Marks (I own one, nicely accurate), Ruger Mark II (want one, also very well known to be accurate), and Lugers. The biggest problem with the fixed barrel guns is that they do not handle felt recoil as well as the Short Recoil design, so they tend to only use the smaller calibres.

The one notable exception to the fixed barrel and small calibre trend is the Desert Eagle, but it uses an actual gas-operated action similar to high powered automatic rifles. The gas system reduces felt recoil, as does the obscene bulk of the gun itself.

Wow, between the first post and this one, I've belted out 7000 words off the cuff, and could easily go for more. There are days that I think I know too much about firearms.
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Old 11-19-2003, 06:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Location: OH, USA
hey moonduck, do you have an opinion on the Kel Tec 32ACP's?

Matt
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Old 11-19-2003, 08:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
I think I commented on them in the other thread, but as I said there, Kel-tec has a wonderful rep. Every person I've talked to that owns one, loves it. Just make sure that it is enough gun for your needs, make certain that you carry it properly, and for goodness' sakes make dead certain that you've taken the proper legal steps to carry within the boundaries of the law.
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Old 11-20-2003, 05:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Location: "TX"
Holy Carp Moonduck! You have answered my question and every question I could pose to any shorter response. You are most wise in the ways of these things, and I thank you greatly for your considered reply.
I bow to your wisdom, and will spend more time at the range. I will also consider a gunsmith if I can't solve my little problem.
Thank you!
(You should write a book for peoples like me.)
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Old 11-20-2003, 06:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
Heh, thanks. There are thousands of books out there written by folks much more qualified than myself. I merely have a deep appreciation for the art and science of the firearm, and a sincere desire to help those interested in that which I appreciate.

Like I said, give it a good looking over. Perhaps you can figure it out yourself, or at least come up with a consistent issue. That is half the fight in an accuracy concern.

Oh, and there does come a time when you just get rid of the beast. Mitchell Arms had a 1911 knockoff called the Gold Series a few years back. Spiffy looking thing in stainless, checkered backstrap, long trigger, beavertailed grip safety, tight bushing tolerances, scalloped ejection port, ramped barrel, etc. All the bells and whistles you could want in a normal shooter.

It shot like ass.

I couldn't get through a full magazine without a jam regardless of ammo. I ran 230gr military ball through it (the easiest thing for a gun to load) and still got jams, stovepipes, etc. It wasn't just one problem, it was a whole host. It printed all over the place too, when it actually shot. Luckily, it was so pretty that I managed to get back all but the tax I paid on it. Sometimes you jusy have to cut your losses.
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Old 11-20-2003, 06:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey
I am hesitant to comment on this thread as it seems so well covered so far.

I will only re-iterate what I have offered many times in the past. Practice is what makes for effectiveness of a weapon (of which accuracy is key). You must learn the tendencies and idiosyncrasies of the weapon being operated. You must rehearse and memorize the position of the operator in relation to the weapon, the two sight points and your point of reference on the target. Body position and sight picture. Highly practiced operators have so in grained the properties of all these factors that they are able to reestablish all pertinent muscle movements to instantly create a 10 point shot on target. This takes tens of thousands of rounds to achieve. It is unrealistic for most (read: all of us) but none the less, do what you can to be the best.

I'll give some props to the weapon and some to the ammo; they have a significant role to play in the equation (probably 15% each). I think it is primarily practice (70%).

Interesting read about the revolver auto debate. Kudos to you gents, very informative stuff. I have experience with some exceptionally 'smithed m1911s that were beyond compare accuracy wise. Everything wise really, except for capacity. I've also played with many off the shelf varieties of the m1911, kimbers, colts, remington rands, a singer ( ), and plenty of 9mm autos, s&w, beretta, sig-sauer...Accuracy was sporadic and inconsistent. Each had its own oddities, but all were able to kill out to 25 feet, once doped in, no problem.

I have yet to fire a revolver that took 'much getting used to.' They've all been relatively accurate, and consistently so across most variations.

What is it I'm trying to say...hmmm?

Without practice, I think I'd select a revolver. However since to me this is unthinkable, I would obviously select an automatic. Strange dilemma.

my thoughts,

-bear
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Old 11-20-2003, 09:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
j8ear brought up a point that I was remiss to not include. I assumed that everyone knows that shooter ability is the first part of the accuracy equation. I also responded in that vein as the original poster said they could "hit things" with a revolver, thus saying the shooter is doing his job on at least one level.

Good guns are capable of more accuracy than the shooter is. What I was discussing were, essentially, not so good guns, and discussing what can go wrong in the manufacture and design stage to prevent a gun from being properly accurate.

I too have fired properly smithed autos that were absolute tack-drivers. A friend has the world's ugliest 1991-A1. It's truly hideous. It has a plumb browned Essex frame WWII vintage, a horrid hack job of checkering on the front and backstraps, the tackiest (as in sticky) rubber grips you've ever seen, a full length sight rib, and a polished Series 70 Gold Cup National Match Colt slide that has been *shudder* cold blued by hand. It's truly hideous. It does however, shoot so well that it will darn-near correct your mistakes for you. Then again, my cuss-ugly and abused S&W M-37 is the most accurate revolver I've ever fired. Luck of the draw.

As to the classic revolver vs automatic debate, I say, for any specific task, find an action (ie revolver vs auto) and caliber combination that suits your needs, then find a good quality gun that has both qualities and you find yourself comfortable with. At that point, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.

I find that, all things being equal, I am more accurate with a revolver, and generally more comfortable with them. In any situation wherein capacity and reload speed is not a major issue, I tend to opt for the revolver over the auto. I have worked armed security, and worked in positions where concealed carry was a very good idea, if not a necessity. My firearm choice changed for each circumstance. I am not the kind of person that thinks there is One Gun for every task, every season. There isn't.

I own a fair number of firearms, and each occupies a niche, a purpose (even if that niche is something as simple as "I like how it shoots"). I like having a bevy of choices and the ability to match my load-out with my task at hand. There are guns out there that allow for a broad range of applications, and I own a few, but I like being able to swap out if need be. This does require that a lot of time be spent familiarizing yourself with every piece in your possession, but the results are worth it if only because shooting is shooting. I don't care what sort of gun you pull the trigger on, if you are practicing proper technique, it will enhance your ability with any firearm.
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Old 11-21-2003, 03:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Location: "TX"
Moonduck, my mentor... I have an Uberti copy of the Walker Colt cap and ball revolver in .44 that I can actually get better groups with than my .45. (well, for at least three loads, then it must be cleaned.) The interesting thing about that gun is that the rear sight is located atop the hammer. It's really fun to shoot. Do you own any blackpowder revolvers?
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Old 11-21-2003, 04:17 PM   #12 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
Nope, wanted to get into black powder for years though. Ruger made a Remington New Army that I've been lusting after for some time. I've just never had the money and nothing better to do with it.

The biggest problem I have is lack of a place to shoot black powder. I live in a semi-urban area and there simply aren't any outdoor ranges (by law). None of the indoor ranges will let you shoot anything other than smokeless, so no go.

One of these days I'll get the chance. Cap and ball just looks like too much fun =)
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