Purchasing your first gun - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pezking4 · 08-07-2003, 07:44 PM

My g/f and I have encountered a few times over the past months where we have felt uneasy at night and have discussed the possibly purchasing a handgun for protection purposes. I'd say it's mostly for peace-of-mind, and would stay out of sight 99% of the time.
What are some things I need to think about when chooses a handgun? How do I know I really want one (I do have a small child that will be growing up in the house with it). I've fired weapons at ranges before, and have learned to respect them. Right now, I just figure I will teach my son at an early age to do the same, as well as taking every measure to ensure he never comes in contact with it when he gets old enough to explore.

Any input is welcome, thanks guys.

Slims · 08-07-2003, 09:13 PM

Um, do you want a gun for home defense, or for concealed carry?

If you want a gun for home defense, you are probably best served by getting a shotgun.

But since you asked for handgun advice, here goes:

For the home, bigger is better as far as gunsize is concerned. I would reccommend either a fullsize glock in either 9mm or .40 s&w or a fullsize revolver (6 inch barrel) in .357. Anything bigger bulletwise and you and your gf will probably have a hard time learning to shoot it. You should get a fullsize pistol because they are easier to shoot, more accurate, have more oomph, and are easier to control than the smaller weapons which are made to be concealable. Unless you and your gf are willing to spend endless hours at the range mastering a particular weapon, simpler is better. There are no safeties to worry about on glocks or revolvers, so you just point and pull the trigger, which means you are less likely to screw something up in a panic situation.

As for concealed carry, well, there is a lot of subjective reasoning and personal preference that comes into play.
Essentially, you have to find a balance between concealablity and performance. Bigger pistols are harder to conceal, and smaller ones are harder to control, and typically don't perform as well.
I personally carry (and love) a HK USP Compact in .40 S&W, but it is fairly bulky and hard to conceal. I am thinking of purchasing another, smaller pistol for the summer months.
I think the general consensus among the shooting community is that you shouldn't bother with anything smaller than .380 (except for very specialized purposes) or with anything larger than .45 for concealed carry. You should probably look into something in 9mm or .40 s&w. Kahr arms is an excellent brand, and makes a bunch of very excellent, concealable weapons.

You will need a gunsafe (to keep it from your kid). They make specialized pistol safes now that are specifically designed to be opened almost immediately when you need them too. Most of them are fairly cheap, and it is worth the expense to make sure an accident doesn't happen. Just hiding the weapons isn't good enough, trust me.

mtsgsd · 08-08-2003, 02:58 PM

First thing you should do is sign up for firearms instruction. I know you said you've used guns before, but you should be able to find an instructor who'll give you instruction in other userfull things like the legalities of home defense, how to use a gun in that situation etc. He/she will also be able to help you decide on what type of gun to buy.

I remember being in a gun store and listening to a man look at shotguns for home defense. He was very uncertain, and had never used a gun before. He said he was nervous about owning a gun and that it would probably remain in the closet unless it was ever needed. The salesman told him "that's all right. Most of the time just cycling the action will make them run away, so you don't have to be an expert". WTF? No questions regarding kids in the house first of all, and all I could think of was that this poor shmuck would probably kill himself or his wife if there was ever a problem because he'd have no idea what he was doing.

Greg700 is right about hiding the gun. Kids excel and finding things you don't want to be found. I remember when I was a kid I learned how to pick the lock on the gun rack and play with the shotgun and rifle. There was a drawer in the rack with all the ammo I could want too. Luckily for me and my dad, I had more sense than to go that far. I don't remember my age then, but I wasn't even in high school yet.

Another thing to keep in mind is that shotgun buckshot and slugs will go through your house and into the next one. Bigger is not better at the range you'd be using it.

Greg700: I used to have a link to a research article done by an FBI ballistics authority. They tested the penetration of various weapons according to how many interior and exterior walls they would penetrate, along with a neighboring house's walls. The best and safest weapon was found to be a .223 ala the M4 or steyr bullpup! The same fragmentation that causes the .223's awfull wounds also causes it to break up and be trapped inside the walls of a house, and rarely does the round leave the house.
Pretty surprising, to me anyway. If you're interested I'll see if I can find it.
uh, that's not a suggestion for pezking4.

Slims · 08-08-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtsgsd

Greg700: I used to have a link to a research article done by an FBI ballistics authority. They tested the penetration of various weapons according to how many interior and exterior walls they would penetrate, along with a neighboring house's walls. The best and safest weapon was found to be a .223 ala the M4 or steyr bullpup! The same fragmentation that causes the .223's awfull wounds also causes it to break up and be trapped inside the walls of a house, and rarely does the round leave the house.
Pretty surprising, to me anyway. If you're interested I'll see if I can find it.
uh, that's not a suggestion for pezking4.

I don't mean to hijack the tread, but was the test conducted using frangible .223 ammunition? because ball ammunition doesn't normally fragment. I have heard that a 12 gauge (20 is probably better) with #4 shot (not #4 buck) fired from a short barrel won't normally penetrate outside walls, and will usually be stopped by inside walls if the hit is at a really shallow angle (most of the shot will have to go through studs). I am asking because I have abandoned my mini-14 as a home defense weapon after I realized I could shoot through medium sized trees with regular ball ammunition.

Edit: To get back on topic, I agree that firearms instruction is absolutely essential.

mtsgsd · 08-08-2003, 04:18 PM

No, but an explanation would hijack the thread. If I can find it, I'll pm the link to you ok?

mtsgsd · 08-08-2003, 04:31 PM

Ok, I haven't found the link I'm looking for, but this one is interesting. It's from a weapons forum that is now closed to new posts, but they're leaving it up for reference. Some strange people mixed in with the sane ones as usual.

This thread is discussing the use of shotguns vs. handguns for home defense.

pezking4 · 08-09-2003, 03:32 AM

No problem on the thread guys, you've given some good advice, so feel free. Thanks.

jadedgrin · 08-09-2003, 02:55 PM

well ill tell you right now, when the shit hits the fan, expect to miss 1 out 4 shot with a bullet. if you want a home defense weapon only, just go with a shotgun period, unless you know you can stay sharp while some buglar with a pistol or a machete is charging at you, the spread from the shotgun is great for im still groggy and none of the lights are on at house situations

shotguns have stopping power, with a 9mm you could shoot them, then they will shoot you and thats no good, but even a 20 gauge (thats weak buy shotgun standards) will knock someone off their feet and give you a chance to run, shoot or take cover at least)

good luck and if you get a shotgun, stay around 24inches

cj2112 · 08-09-2003, 03:20 PM

If you are determined to buy a handgun over a shotgun, look at a good quality .357, and load it w/ either black talon rounds (now very difficult to come by) or load it w/ shot-shells (yes they make them for the .357). Shot-shells are loads w/ lots of little bb's and in a situation where you may have to actually shoot someone, the risk of missing is almost nil.

Slims · 08-09-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cj2112
If you are determined to buy a handgun over a shotgun, look at a good quality .357, and load it w/ either black talon rounds (now very difficult to come by) or load it w/ shot-shells (yes they make them for the .357). Shot-shells are loads w/ lots of little bb's and in a situation where you may have to actually shoot someone, the risk of missing is almost nil.

I disagree completely. Don't use either of these loads! Modern high quality handgun ammunition is just as good as black talon, and it doesn't have a stigma attached to it. Black talon (wrongly) got labeled a cop killer bullet, is now out of production, and is illegal in many states. If you ever shoot someone with a black talon bullet, you open yourself up to all kinds of legal trouble after the fact. Shot shells are useless for self defense. The pellets are way to small to penetrate deep enough to do serious damage. They also spread out so quickly that most of the pellets would end up missing your target anyway.

There is a lot of room for bickering over what handgun ammunition is best for self defense use, but most shooters would probably agree that it would be one of these bullets (situation dependent):
Glaser Safety Slugs/Magsafes--These are frangible to reduce the potential for a bullet to go through a wall and kill your kid.

Hydrashock, Speer Gold Dot, and Corbon all make top not personal defense ammunition. If you don't have to worry about over penetration, you probably want to choose one of these.

Lebell · 08-09-2003, 07:57 PM

I ditto Greg on the ammo do's and don'ts, ESPECIALLY the NO on Black Talons!

I personally have Federal Hydrashok's in my bedside gun. Good energy to target transfer and reduced chance of punching through a wall and hitting what's beyond it.

The_Dunedan · 08-09-2003, 08:20 PM

Greg's got it right. I too considered shotshells, for my .44, but the spread is too extreme. For similar effect, in terms of not penetrating walls, look into Glaser Safety Slugs. These are projectiles with a plastic ogive ( nose ), filled with either #9 ( blue tip ) or #7 ( silver tip) birdshot. It's a compromise between ball and frangible rounds that works quite well, and prevents you from shooting through more than 2 layers of drywall, and will not penetrate a 2x4 to lethal effect. There will still be flying birdshot and spliters of wood, but very little chance of someone getting hurt, on the off-chance that they -do- get hit with something. They'll load in any automatic, unlike hollowpoints, which some autopistols don't care for. Also, the terminal ballistics of these things are just plain UGLY. The kinetic-energy transfer is hideous in it's effect, due to the fact that a Glaser will deform and expend it's momentum MUCH faster than anything short of a baseball bat to the head.

Greg's also right on Black Talons; BIG nono there. The stigma attatched to those things is a lawsuit magnet. There have been several cases where burglars who survived ( or the families of those who didn't ) have sued homeowners, saying "Look! He WANTED to kill my little Johnny, look what nasty bullets he loaded his gun with!" What's truly sick, is that in at least one of these cases, the plaintiff won.

Glasers, Golder Sabers, HEX-bullets, Gold Dot...any one of these will more than do the job.

mtsgsd · 08-10-2003, 06:06 AM

According to some info I saw a long time ago, the "best" handgun for home defense was determined to be a .357 revolver with a 4" barrel. This was some police study.

You'll always hear revolvers being recommended because they will not have a failure to feed/eject. They also do not need to be cocked or cycled before fireing (obviously not talking about SAO here).

.357 was figured to be the most lethal combination of power and (weight? recoil?) can't remember. Remember this is a recommendation for Joe Blow home owner.

The 4" barrel was supposed to be all you need to be accurate at the range you'll be shooting at, and ensures easy pointing.

Only thing is, you still have the over-penetration problem. I like the idea of Glasers or Mag-Safes. These are frangible bullets that are made to disintegrate when they hit. This keeps them from going thru walls, or ricocheting all over the place. Turns out this also gaurantees 100% energy transfer to the target, with no chance of the bullet exiting out the back ie. maximum lethality for the round.

Gorgo · 08-10-2003, 10:32 AM

Here's my 2 cents on best choices for home defense:

Shotgun:
20 Gauge not 12 Guage, less recoil, plenty of stopping power.
Use Slug or Buckshot, not birdshot.
Get the shortest barrel you can, 18" is the legal limit for a civilian.

Hangun:
Revolver - .357 Mag or .38 Special, 4" barrel
Semi-auto - 9 MM or 40 S&W, mid-size frame, 4-5" barrel
Ammo - Jacketed Hollowpoint ammo, Federal, Corbon, Winchester brands

Gun Lock/Safe:
A trigger lock will keep the gun secure with a child in the house.
Get one from MasterLock that uses a key.
Alternately, a small tabletop safe that has a quick release. One style has a handprint on top with fingertip buttons, for opening in the dark.

Gun Training:
I firmly believe anyone who wants to own a gun get training. Check your nearest Gun Ranges for firearms training classes.
A Concealed Carry class is even better because they discuss the laws regarding ownership and use of firearms.

I personally own a Mossberg 500 series shotgun and a Ruger P95 9MM hangun. So I follow my own advice.

SuperMidget · 08-11-2003, 09:29 AM

Handguns, I don't know anything about, but it looks like you have a lot of good recomendations.

But for in the house, you just can't beat a 12 ga. with #6 target loads. First off, everyone knows what a shotgun slide sounds like, and it will scare the piss out of you because you know the owner means business.

If you decide to buy a home defense shotgun, The winchester defender, the remington marine, or the ithaca featherweight are all good choices.

As for ammo, the choice is personal, but the best solution i can think of is a #6 first (because your first shot will be very close and lead target loads are very devastating but non-lethal and second because it takes about 5/100ths of a second to rack the slide and chamber a different round). Next a load of # 4 buckshot so you can shoot him in the posterior as he runs away. Finally a 2 3/4 slug for the far off shot when he gets away with your gf's jewelry box. used in any combination, the results can be messy.

For the kid i would recommend you teaching him about guns from an early age. I got my first gun when I was three. I always had access to it, always knew where the ammo was, but i didn't ever misuse it. the reason I believe is because I was taught (with a belt if necessary) to respect weapons from the age of 3. None of our guns has ever been locked up, well not until a couple years ago when everyone was old enough to unlock the gun cabinet.

Personally I feel guns should not be locked up. That attaches a stigma to them, making them forbidden and something tempting to get a hold of. If they are within easy access and and children learn to respect them, there will be a lotless problems. This however does not mean you should let them use them without supervision. supervise him until you feel he is responsible enough to use it, then let him shoot it on his own. I gaurantee he will be much more careful than if you were to be standing there.

Now that I think about it, buy the kid his own little .22. It will give him incentive to lear to use it and respect it properly. (plus it keeps him from messing around with your gun.)

j8ear · 08-11-2003, 10:43 AM

home defense=shotgun...no doubt about it.

They make for terrible conceal carry weapons though.

What ever you decide, nothing is more important then experience and confidence with the weapon you choose to employ. YOU must get to the range often and learn to use your weapon accurately and effectively. Real world life and death situations are difficult to prepare for, but knowledge of your weapon is the number ONE issue. The better prepared you are for a worst case scenario in the form of training the better off you will be in the situations that matter most to you and those you love.

THIS CAN'T be stressed enough.

Hoping you will never need to employ these new found skills,

-bear

DaeHanL · 07-19-2011, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slims

Um, do you want a gun for home defense, or for concealed carry?

If you want a gun for home defense, you are probably best served by getting a shotgun.

But since you asked for handgun advice, here goes:

For the home, bigger is better as far as gunsize is concerned. I would reccommend either a fullsize glock in either 9mm or .40 s&w or a fullsize revolver (6 inch barrel) in .357. Anything bigger bulletwise and you and your gf will probably have a hard time learning to shoot it. You should get a fullsize pistol because they are easier to shoot, more accurate, have more oomph, and are easier to control than the smaller weapons which are made to be concealable. Unless you and your gf are willing to spend endless hours at the range mastering a particular weapon, simpler is better. There are no safeties to worry about on glocks or revolvers, so you just point and pull the trigger, which means you are less likely to screw something up in a panic situation.

As for concealed carry, well, there is a lot of subjective reasoning and personal preference that comes into play.
Essentially, you have to find a balance between concealablity and performance. Bigger pistols are harder to conceal, and smaller ones are harder to control, and typically don't perform as well.
I personally carry (and love) a HK USP Compact in .40 S&W, but it is fairly bulky and hard to conceal. I am thinking of purchasing another, smaller pistol for the summer months.
I think the general consensus among the shooting community is that you shouldn't bother with anything smaller than .380 (except for very specialized purposes) or with anything larger than .45 for concealed carry. You should probably look into something in 9mm or .40 s&w. Kahr arms is an excellent brand, and makes a bunch of very excellent, concealable weapons.

You will need a gunsafe (to keep it from your kid). They make specialized pistol safes now that are specifically designed to be opened almost immediately when you need them too. Most of them are fairly cheap, and it is worth the expense to make sure an accident doesn't happen. Just hiding the weapons isn't good enough, trust me.

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

this is seriously excellent advice.

08-07-2003, 07:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
pezking4 Crazy Location: NC	Purchasing your first gun My g/f and I have encountered a few times over the past months where we have felt uneasy at night and have discussed the possibly purchasing a handgun for protection purposes. I'd say it's mostly for peace-of-mind, and would stay out of sight 99% of the time. What are some things I need to think about when chooses a handgun? How do I know I really want one (I do have a small child that will be growing up in the house with it). I've fired weapons at ranges before, and have learned to respect them. Right now, I just figure I will teach my son at an early age to do the same, as well as taking every measure to ensure he never comes in contact with it when he gets old enough to explore. Any input is welcome, thanks guys.

08-07-2003, 09:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Um, do you want a gun for home defense, or for concealed carry? If you want a gun for home defense, you are probably best served by getting a shotgun. But since you asked for handgun advice, here goes: For the home, bigger is better as far as gunsize is concerned. I would reccommend either a fullsize glock in either 9mm or .40 s&w or a fullsize revolver (6 inch barrel) in .357. Anything bigger bulletwise and you and your gf will probably have a hard time learning to shoot it. You should get a fullsize pistol because they are easier to shoot, more accurate, have more oomph, and are easier to control than the smaller weapons which are made to be concealable. Unless you and your gf are willing to spend endless hours at the range mastering a particular weapon, simpler is better. There are no safeties to worry about on glocks or revolvers, so you just point and pull the trigger, which means you are less likely to screw something up in a panic situation. As for concealed carry, well, there is a lot of subjective reasoning and personal preference that comes into play. Essentially, you have to find a balance between concealablity and performance. Bigger pistols are harder to conceal, and smaller ones are harder to control, and typically don't perform as well. I personally carry (and love) a HK USP Compact in .40 S&W, but it is fairly bulky and hard to conceal. I am thinking of purchasing another, smaller pistol for the summer months. I think the general consensus among the shooting community is that you shouldn't bother with anything smaller than .380 (except for very specialized purposes) or with anything larger than .45 for concealed carry. You should probably look into something in 9mm or .40 s&w. Kahr arms is an excellent brand, and makes a bunch of very excellent, concealable weapons. You will need a gunsafe (to keep it from your kid). They make specialized pistol safes now that are specifically designed to be opened almost immediately when you need them too. Most of them are fairly cheap, and it is worth the expense to make sure an accident doesn't happen. Just hiding the weapons isn't good enough, trust me. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

08-09-2003, 02:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
jadedgrin Psycho Location: eh	well ill tell you right now, when the shit hits the fan, expect to miss 1 out 4 shot with a bullet. if you want a home defense weapon only, just go with a shotgun period, unless you know you can stay sharp while some buglar with a pistol or a machete is charging at you, the spread from the shotgun is great for im still groggy and none of the lights are on at house situations shotguns have stopping power, with a 9mm you could shoot them, then they will shoot you and thats no good, but even a 20 gauge (thats weak buy shotgun standards) will knock someone off their feet and give you a chance to run, shoot or take cover at least) good luck and if you get a shotgun, stay around 24inches __________________ what puts a smile on your face??

08-09-2003, 07:57 PM	#11 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I ditto Greg on the ammo do's and don'ts, ESPECIALLY the NO on Black Talons! I personally have Federal Hydrashok's in my bedside gun. Good energy to target transfer and reduced chance of punching through a wall and hitting what's beyond it. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-09-2003, 08:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Greg's got it right. I too considered shotshells, for my .44, but the spread is too extreme. For similar effect, in terms of not penetrating walls, look into Glaser Safety Slugs. These are projectiles with a plastic ogive ( nose ), filled with either #9 ( blue tip ) or #7 ( silver tip) birdshot. It's a compromise between ball and frangible rounds that works quite well, and prevents you from shooting through more than 2 layers of drywall, and will not penetrate a 2x4 to lethal effect. There will still be flying birdshot and spliters of wood, but very little chance of someone getting hurt, on the off-chance that they -do- get hit with something. They'll load in any automatic, unlike hollowpoints, which some autopistols don't care for. Also, the terminal ballistics of these things are just plain UGLY. The kinetic-energy transfer is hideous in it's effect, due to the fact that a Glaser will deform and expend it's momentum MUCH faster than anything short of a baseball bat to the head. Greg's also right on Black Talons; BIG nono there. The stigma attatched to those things is a lawsuit magnet. There have been several cases where burglars who survived ( or the families of those who didn't ) have sued homeowners, saying "Look! He WANTED to kill my little Johnny, look what nasty bullets he loaded his gun with!" What's truly sick, is that in at least one of these cases, the plaintiff won. Glasers, Golder Sabers, HEX-bullets, Gold Dot...any one of these will more than do the job. __________________ "I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world." --Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

08-08-2003, 02:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	First thing you should do is sign up for firearms instruction. I know you said you've used guns before, but you should be able to find an instructor who'll give you instruction in other userfull things like the legalities of home defense, how to use a gun in that situation etc. He/she will also be able to help you decide on what type of gun to buy. I remember being in a gun store and listening to a man look at shotguns for home defense. He was very uncertain, and had never used a gun before. He said he was nervous about owning a gun and that it would probably remain in the closet unless it was ever needed. The salesman told him "that's all right. Most of the time just cycling the action will make them run away, so you don't have to be an expert". WTF? No questions regarding kids in the house first of all, and all I could think of was that this poor shmuck would probably kill himself or his wife if there was ever a problem because he'd have no idea what he was doing. Greg700 is right about hiding the gun. Kids excel and finding things you don't want to be found. I remember when I was a kid I learned how to pick the lock on the gun rack and play with the shotgun and rifle. There was a drawer in the rack with all the ammo I could want too. Luckily for me and my dad, I had more sense than to go that far. I don't remember my age then, but I wasn't even in high school yet. Another thing to keep in mind is that shotgun buckshot and slugs will go through your house and into the next one. Bigger is not better at the range you'd be using it. Greg700: I used to have a link to a research article done by an FBI ballistics authority. They tested the penetration of various weapons according to how many interior and exterior walls they would penetrate, along with a neighboring house's walls. The best and safest weapon was found to be a .223 ala the M4 or steyr bullpup! The same fragmentation that causes the .223's awfull wounds also causes it to break up and be trapped inside the walls of a house, and rarely does the round leave the house. Pretty surprising, to me anyway. If you're interested I'll see if I can find it. uh, that's not a suggestion for pezking4.

08-08-2003, 04:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	No, but an explanation would hijack the thread. If I can find it, I'll pm the link to you ok?

08-08-2003, 04:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	Ok, I haven't found the link I'm looking for, but this one is interesting. It's from a weapons forum that is now closed to new posts, but they're leaving it up for reference. Some strange people mixed in with the sane ones as usual. This thread is discussing the use of shotguns vs. handguns for home defense.

08-09-2003, 03:32 AM	#7 (permalink)
pezking4 Crazy Location: NC	No problem on the thread guys, you've given some good advice, so feel free. Thanks.

08-09-2003, 03:20 PM	#9 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	If you are determined to buy a handgun over a shotgun, look at a good quality .357, and load it w/ either black talon rounds (now very difficult to come by) or load it w/ shot-shells (yes they make them for the .357). Shot-shells are loads w/ lots of little bb's and in a situation where you may have to actually shoot someone, the risk of missing is almost nil.

08-10-2003, 06:06 AM	#13 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	According to some info I saw a long time ago, the "best" handgun for home defense was determined to be a .357 revolver with a 4" barrel. This was some police study. You'll always hear revolvers being recommended because they will not have a failure to feed/eject. They also do not need to be cocked or cycled before fireing (obviously not talking about SAO here). .357 was figured to be the most lethal combination of power and (weight? recoil?) can't remember. Remember this is a recommendation for Joe Blow home owner. The 4" barrel was supposed to be all you need to be accurate at the range you'll be shooting at, and ensures easy pointing. Only thing is, you still have the over-penetration problem. I like the idea of Glasers or Mag-Safes. These are frangible bullets that are made to disintegrate when they hit. This keeps them from going thru walls, or ricocheting all over the place. Turns out this also gaurantees 100% energy transfer to the target, with no chance of the bullet exiting out the back ie. maximum lethality for the round.

08-10-2003, 10:32 AM	#14 (permalink)
Gorgo Tilted Location: Tampa Bay, Florida	Here's my 2 cents on best choices for home defense: Shotgun: 20 Gauge not 12 Guage, less recoil, plenty of stopping power. Use Slug or Buckshot, not birdshot. Get the shortest barrel you can, 18" is the legal limit for a civilian. Hangun: Revolver - .357 Mag or .38 Special, 4" barrel Semi-auto - 9 MM or 40 S&W, mid-size frame, 4-5" barrel Ammo - Jacketed Hollowpoint ammo, Federal, Corbon, Winchester brands Gun Lock/Safe: A trigger lock will keep the gun secure with a child in the house. Get one from MasterLock that uses a key. Alternately, a small tabletop safe that has a quick release. One style has a handprint on top with fingertip buttons, for opening in the dark. Gun Training: I firmly believe anyone who wants to own a gun get training. Check your nearest Gun Ranges for firearms training classes. A Concealed Carry class is even better because they discuss the laws regarding ownership and use of firearms. I personally own a Mossberg 500 series shotgun and a Ruger P95 9MM hangun. So I follow my own advice. __________________ Will Code for food . . .

08-11-2003, 09:29 AM	#15 (permalink)
SuperMidget Banned Location: Farm country, South Dakota	Handguns, I don't know anything about, but it looks like you have a lot of good recomendations. But for in the house, you just can't beat a 12 ga. with #6 target loads. First off, everyone knows what a shotgun slide sounds like, and it will scare the piss out of you because you know the owner means business. If you decide to buy a home defense shotgun, The winchester defender, the remington marine, or the ithaca featherweight are all good choices. As for ammo, the choice is personal, but the best solution i can think of is a #6 first (because your first shot will be very close and lead target loads are very devastating but non-lethal and second because it takes about 5/100ths of a second to rack the slide and chamber a different round). Next a load of # 4 buckshot so you can shoot him in the posterior as he runs away. Finally a 2 3/4 slug for the far off shot when he gets away with your gf's jewelry box. used in any combination, the results can be messy. For the kid i would recommend you teaching him about guns from an early age. I got my first gun when I was three. I always had access to it, always knew where the ammo was, but i didn't ever misuse it. the reason I believe is because I was taught (with a belt if necessary) to respect weapons from the age of 3. None of our guns has ever been locked up, well not until a couple years ago when everyone was old enough to unlock the gun cabinet. Personally I feel guns should not be locked up. That attaches a stigma to them, making them forbidden and something tempting to get a hold of. If they are within easy access and and children learn to respect them, there will be a lotless problems. This however does not mean you should let them use them without supervision. supervise him until you feel he is responsible enough to use it, then let him shoot it on his own. I gaurantee he will be much more careful than if you were to be standing there. Now that I think about it, buy the kid his own little .22. It will give him incentive to lear to use it and respect it properly. (plus it keeps him from messing around with your gun.)

08-11-2003, 10:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	home defense=shotgun...no doubt about it. They make for terrible conceal carry weapons though. What ever you decide, nothing is more important then experience and confidence with the weapon you choose to employ. YOU must get to the range often and learn to use your weapon accurately and effectively. Real world life and death situations are difficult to prepare for, but knowledge of your weapon is the number ONE issue. The better prepared you are for a worst case scenario in the form of training the better off you will be in the situations that matter most to you and those you love. THIS CAN'T be stressed enough. Hoping you will never need to employ these new found skills, -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.