woohog1

Guys,
I was recently given a small smith and wesson revolver chambered in .32 s&w long.Im going to let the wifey use it as simply a nightstand companion. (Before anyone else chimes in here, she has shot many weapons, and has experience with up to a .40 caliber. She can handle her guns, so the purpose is not to debate if it is the best gun for her) I simply want to know if anyone out there as any info on the how affective the round is for self defense. How does it compare to the .38? Obviously it will be a smaller projectile, traveling slower, but I for one wouldnt even want to get shot with a .22.
Distance will be minimal I would say nothing farther than 10 feet. Yes I know shot placement has alot to do with a rounds ability, so lets say, that for the sake of argument, that she is able to do her part.
What do you guys think? More of a novelty round, or would I just be better off making it a safe queen?

__________________
God created man, Sam Colt made them equal.

Zeraph

(remember I have limited knowledge)

Basically a gun is better than no gun. And its going to intimidate and hurt a hell of a lot more than mace. I say keep it for now, plan on upgrading a 9mm later.

Just be sure she shouts a brief warning...wouldn't want you shot the night you decided to surprise her for a romantic evening.

Cimarron29414

I have textbook knowledge of lethality, no real life experiences. Statistically, this caliber does not have one shot knock-down strength. However, as you said, no one wants to get shot by anything. Add to it the fact that 90% of the time a firearm is presented in self defense, the firearm is not fired in the deterrence. The mere presence of the weapon was enough to deter.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

KirStang

Whoops.

Strange Famous

Surely the point of having a metal in self defence in your bedside cabinet is to use as a threat... not to worry about how likely it is to kill a guy?

If someone breaks in and you or your wife pull the metal on him and tell him to put his hands up etc... is he going to be thinking "thats only a .32 calibre, it will kill me a lot less quickly than a .50 calibre Desert Eagle if she pulls the trigger?"

_

In short, a gun is a gun.

If you want to hunt or shoot targets... fair enough it makes a difference and I would recomend you a high quality IMI weapon, but if it is to defend your home it makes no practical difference at all unless you anticipate a gunfight with a group of bandits.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

KirStang

Oh my god.

NO. IF YOU POINT A GUN, YOU DAMNED WELL BE READY TO USE IT. Otherwise, threatening without a legitimate threat will result in imprisonment!

I have seen X-Rays of home-intruders who have BEEN SHOT 9 TIMES WITH A 9MM AND SURVIVED--THE HOMEOWNER WAS NOT SO LUCKY (Perp killed the homeowner even though perp was shot many, many times).

A GUN IS NOT "A GUN." Although shot placement is king, CALIBER AND ROUND SELECTION ARE IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS. I would never recommend winchester white box target loads for home defense.

Strange Famous

Obviously if (for example) you fire 9 shots at the guys feet while demanding that he dance for you, this is a less effective means of defence than shooting him in the guts.

Thats got nothing to do with the size of bullet you are using.

In most situations you will be in a situation to brandish the metal on the burgular and demands he drops whatever he has on him... the idea isnt to get into a gunfight at all.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

KirStang

Meh, I won't get pulled in to a debate regarding firearms with you anymore, SF.

OP, look at the data I posted.

FelixP

I wouldn't use it. If you look at the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami you'll see that bigger rounds are more effective, although I will agree that KirStang is right when he says that shot placement is of prime importance.

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Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

Strange Famous

This is the difference between knowledge and common sense

Someone with my knowledge can tell you the velocity per square inch of a certain bullet

Someone with common sense can tell you that within the confines of your house, if you own a gun to scare away burgulars or in the worst possible case shoot at one, a .32 calibre gun doesnt make much difference to to a .40 calibre one.

Anyone with the slightest bit of sense can tell you that where you shoot someone is the biggest factor in how badly hurt they will likely to be. A shot in the head will usually be fatal, a shot in the knee usually wont be.

I dont believe that the OP was asking for advise on how to kill people. He was asking for advise about whether a .32 was a suitable weapon for his wife to have in the bedside cabinet for self defence... by any rational standard it is fine if the metal is in good working order.

Whether it will penetrate 18 inches into the flesh of a human being or 15 inches - while interesting to people who have a technical fascination with guns - isnt relevant to the question.

__

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

Since "velocity per square inch" is a non-existent measure, your "knowledge" is as usual highly suspect. Velocity is measured in feet/meters-per-second, impact force is measured in pounds-feet, pressure is measured in pound/kilograms per square inch/centimeter. You appear to have ceased pulling definitions out of your ass, and moved to pulling definitions out of the Bass-O-Matic.

Which you have proven in the past not to possess...

...and have just proven to have made no investment in. Look. You don't use a gun to scare somebody. That's called "brandishing," and is both stupid and illegal. And yes: .32 vs .40 makes a big difference. Bigger holes let out more blood. Bigger bullets traumatize more tissue. This is elementary, basic, -actual- common sense.

Congratulations, Strange, you've just made your first-ever sensible post in Tilted Weaponry.

The ability (and comparative abilities) of a weapon or weapons to deliver an instantly incapacitating blow or injury is central to the suitability of that weapon for defensive purposes. If a round cannot reliably penetrate to reach the vital organs, it is unsuitable. Period.

It is absolutely relevant. If I am forced to shoot a 300lb footbal hooligan, a round which can only penetrate 8-10" of flesh is not going to reach his vital organs and will not reliably -stop- him from aggressing against me. It will produce a painful surface wound and will bleed a little, but that's all. Only damage to vital organs, -severe- damage to load-bearing bones, or damage to the central nervous system will reliably -stop- an attacker before he can inflict harm or worsen the harm already inflicted. Swift exanguination helps, which is why we advise customers who carry/buy the .32ACP Kel-Tec pistol to load with high-velocity hollowpoints, invest in a 10rd magazine, and DUMP THE MAG if they ever have to fire the weapon. A whole bunch of .32 holes will work around-about as well as 2-3 .40 holes, even if they don't all get into the "boiler room."

Bear in mind, Strange, that you shoot somebody to stop them from what they're doing. Frequently this means killing them: nothing else will suffice. Look up the effects of PCP, Methamphetamine, drunkenness and adrenaline overload if you don't believe me.

But then, that would require you to give credence to the reality-informed opinions of experts and the demonstrable facts of life, both of which you've been stubbornly disinclined to do in the past.


As for the OP: with proper loadings, the .32 S&W is capable of being a quite useful little round. Penetration is good, recoil is light enough for women and the elderly to use it without a problem, and with correct shot-placement it will certainly get the job done. The "Mozambique double-tap" is excellent practice with any round, but essential with these lighter-weight pills.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

KirStang

Actually it is relevant.

The OP probably knows more about firearms than the person dispensing above advice.

People generally won't recommend firearms like .22LR or 25ACP for self defense or any sort of defense against humans. They all might be 'good working metal.' But the difference is, you may have excellent shot placement, on the center of mass, where the heart or spine is located. A 'good working metal' .22LR round may end up lodging only in the ribcage and fail to adequately neutralize the threat. On the other hand, a properly loaded 9mm JHP will (in theory) penetrate the rib cage while expanding and damage vital organs and neutralize the threat. If you're lucky, the round will hit the spinal cord and render instant incapacitation of the threat.

The expansion of the 9mm round to 150% its original diameter increases the probability that the round will hit vital organs and stop the threat, hence the need for hollowpoints. A properly constructed 9mm round will expand to .6" DIA, while a properly loaded .45 can expand up to .75."

In a life or death situation, you want every advantage you can get.

The Miami FBI shootout exemplifies the need for a stronger cartridge loaded properly. One of the rounds fired by the FBI agent hit the perpetrator through his forearm, then hit is ribcage, but lodged there. Had the round had sufficient penetrating force it would have severed the perpetrator's aorta. However, the 9mm fired by the agent failed to do this and the perp subsequently killed the FBI agent.

Finally, Strange, you should not give erroneous and misleading information about things you have no idea about when people's lives are potentially at stake. I hope I've adequately explained why caliber selection matters--although not by much once you get in to .38/9mm/.40S&W calibers. Pistols are notoriously poor manstoppers (and i'm quoting a Ph.D who studies ballistics here). You will do well to read more, and post less.

The_Dunedan

This. This is important. Equally important is the fact that Agt. Moreles, who eventually neutralized Platt and Matix, was left alive -only- because of P/M's choice of rounds. If Platt had been using a Garand or FAL, or any other full-power .30-cal, there would have been a minimum of 6, probably all 8 (not counting the two Sex Machines, that is) dead FBI Agents. If both Platt and Matix had been armed with full-power .30-cal rifles or .22-cal carbines loaded with AP ammo (SS109/M855, correct 5.45x39, etc) the deaths of all 8 Fan Belt Inspectors would have been all but inevitable.

Quote:

Pistols are notoriously poor manstoppers (and i'm quoting a Ph.D who studies ballistics here).

Even more: THIS. Depending upon the info you consult and the authors you read (Chuck Taylor, Massad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper, FBI, whomever) somewhere between 75-85% of those who are shot with pistol-caliber rounds/projos survive. The issue is: can a given round -STOP- an aggressor, RIGHTNOW. That's what matters. -Stopping- the attack. A .22LR will kill a man: so will a BB gun. -Stop- him, OTOH? No. For that, you need massive tissue trauma and preferably equally horrid blood-loss, ideally combined with CNS damage and/or hydrostatic shock.

Look, I have customers who can -only- handle a .22. Fine. I tell them to load the weapon with high-velocity hollowpoints and empty the magazine if they ever have to fire in anger. 10rds of .22 at 1500+ FPS is about like a blast of #4 Buckshot: enough for the majority of situations. If that's all they can handle, I give them the tools/skills to handle it. The Walther P-22 is popular, likewise their PK-380 and Taurus's tilt-barrel .22. Both of the .22's are tuned for use with high-velocity HP rounds, and fired several times at close quarters could be a bit nasty. Nothing like an equal number of 9mm, .40, or .45 rounds, obviously, but quite capable if placed properly. The PK-380 is a masterpiece for those with arthritic hands or injured wrists with its' easy springs and low recoil. However, .380HP is now turning fairly ugly. 8-10rds of a short 9mm hollowpoint is a whole lot better than throwing rocks or .25's. A suitable .32 can be quite useful in enough numbers and with correct placement. But the point is that all of these rounds, weapons, and techniques are still trying to make up the difference between the small-caliber pocket-pistol rounds and full-sized, full-powered rounds such as 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, .38SLP, .357 Magnum, .44SPL, .45LC, etc.

88grLRN is better than nothing, let's put it that way. Practice headshots. It'll be somewhere below a .380 90grRN "plinking" round or a .38SPL "Original Recipe" 158gr LRN. Vastly more useful than the .25, with more tissue disruption than the .22. A good choice if she cannot handle or does not like heavier calibres, especially with HP.

Bottom like: go with what she can shoot effectively. Practice effective shooting. It'll all flow from there.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

woohog1

While we seem to be getting off on another tangent entirely, lets get back to focus here. The revolver in question is a snub nose small frame smith. It is a da/sa revolver, and the only loads I have now are 88 grain round nose. Now before yall say anything, yes I have ordered some hollow points, but dont have any right now.
Im just wondering about ballistics compared to something else. Say the .327 federal magnum, or the .25 acp. Just to get a ball park figure.
As far as having more knowledge than someone else, I stronly doubt that. I was in the Marines as a 0311 (basic rifleman) had an uncle and grandfather that were both gunsmiths (uncle is a master gunsmith) and have been around firearms my entire life. But I strongly doubt that I know more than anyone else on here.
Basically all im looking for is ballistics compared to some of the more poplular "self defense" rounds.

__________________
God created man, Sam Colt made them equal.

debaser

No.

__________________

Strange Famous

Now we do really see some funny stuff in this forum.

Some above seem to be suggesting that it is legal to shoot and kill someone who breaks into your house, but criminal to point a gun at them and have then surrenhder.

From their statements, if this mans wife points the .32 at the burgular and he puts his hands up and says "ok, I give up... please dont shoot" she is legally bound to execute him!

Look at this quotation for example:

"..and have just proven to have made no investment in. Look. You don't use a gun to scare somebody. That's called "brandishing," and is both stupid and illegal."

And take the logical conclusion

_

People who have the nerve to talk to ME about the advise I give, while claiming that once you pull a gun on someone you are committing a crime against you go ahead and shoot them, even if they are unarmed and surrender!

_

It goes again to show that having a technical knowledge of guns is very little guarantee that a person is able to give sensible advise about how to use them.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

...can't touch this.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Ugh. Oh my god. Why do I even bother.

The_Jazz

---

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- Strange Famous, stop the trolling.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

SSJTWIZTA

this thread happened at a great time.

a female friend of mine asked about a nice pistol for self defense. she's very skinny and sort of timid. i dont know how well she would handle recoil....any recoil. i told her to go down to the range and try out a .32 out, maybe a .38

im eager to see where this thread goes. maybe i can forward some advice.

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

debaser

.38 is a great defensive round, .32 not so much.

For the casual shooter who wants a pistol for defense nothing beats a .38 revolver.

__________________

Strange Famous

huh and they have all these threads wondering why less and less people participate on this site...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Zeraph

Dude, regardless of who you might be (or all the infinite knowledge you may or may not contain).... Don't you realize you often derail threads? And that no one is asking for your advice in this particular forum? Stick to the other forums man. It'll go easier. The way you're going you might get banned.

Just some, honestly, friendly advice. I know you've been here awhile. But I have a feeling the mods are getting a bit fed up. I know you may not see it, but take advice from a friend? K? cool.

Plan9

If they ban StrangeFamous, they're going to have to ban me, too.

I can't live without his love.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

Strange:

You are welcome to troll any of my threads in this forum. You will, almost guaranteed, take the thread in a new, unexpected, and awesome direction.

But the Poster of this thread was asking a serious question and likely is not familiar with your antics. It's bad form to deliberately give someone (who doesn't already know better) bad advice in order to make a thread more interesting... Especially if they are likely to listen to it.




Here's my two cents for the OP and/or rebuttal to SF's post:


First: any weapon is better than no weapon. I would much prefer to have a .32 Long revolver over no gun at all if someone were breaking into my home. However, it is far, far from ideal and if you have other options in a more mainstream chambering such as .38 Special, 9mm, etc. I would seriously consider using one of those instead..

Secon: Pay attention people. The weapon the OP mentions is a .32 Long, which is an old revolver round. Not the .32 ACP people seem to think it is.

The .32 Long is considered an obsolete round so there isn't very much information available regarding ballistics. However, it is similar to (but still less powerful than) the diminutive .32 ACP. One shop stop stats's for .32 ACP are as follows: 62% for Silvertip ammunition and 50% for ball ammo (probably all you can find for .32 Long, if you can get ammo at all).

The .38 Special with quality ammunition shot out of a four inch barrel sits at 83% for one shot stops.


This is actually a big difference, especially considering that the .32 Long has lower muzzle velocity and energy than the .32 ACP. I did an internet search and was not able to locate anything except round nose ball or low-velocity target loads. So if you choose to use this weapon it is reasonable to expect a round fired into the torso of an attacker to stop him a little less than 50% of the time. There are, of course, a thousand variables that I am not considering. Remember that a lethal shot may not 'stop' someone from completing their attack...you can get stabbed with an icepick and have plenty of time to wreak havoc while slowly bleeding to death.

Basically: A .38 Special with a four inch barrel, loaded with premium ammunition will stop 7 out of 8 attackers with one shot. The .32 long loaded with ball ammo (all you can probably find) will stop less than 4 of the 8....

Oh, and with regards to the .40 being about the same: With the best ammunition, the .40 S&W currently holds a 96% one shot stop likelihood... Basically only 4 bad guys out of 100 who get shot in the torso with a .40 S&W Cor-Bon Nosler 135gr round continue their attack...That's a big different from 50 out of 100 or more.

I have to point out that these stats are not the 'ultimate' in gun information and they can be interpreted in different ways. But, along with ballistics tests in Gelatin (and other media) they provide the most statistically and scientifically sound way to evaluate the effectiveness of a particular cartridge....


Shot placement is very important, as SF points out. However, even the most highly trained of people fail to put rounds on target in stressful situations.

While police are not what I would typically consider to be 'highly trained' they receive a considerable deal more firearms training than the average citizen and yet they tend to hit their target (at all, not just in the torso, head, etc.) about 20 percent of the time. It is absurd for Strange Famous to imply that you or your wife 'just shoot the bad guy in the head' rather than worry about the effectiveness of your round. You will probably be struggling just to hit an attacker at all, let alone be able to reliably hit him in the head, at night, while he is shooting at you.


I am including a couple Youtube videos below. It is the only watermelon video I could find with a .32 long, along with comparison videos for .38 special and .40 S&W. It is easy to see why the .32 Long is now mostly a thing for history buffs.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Zeraph

The first couple aren't coming up for me. And lol why does it always have to be against a watermelon? Why the hate?

I would actually think a coconut for instance, while smaller would be a much better target. I think I remember reading somewhere its roughly the toughness of a human skull. But at least *something* harder and more skull like. A watermelon is the last thing that's near human.

Walt

I blame Gallagher.

Swallows won't make off with a watermelon before you have a chance to shoot it.

------

I agree with Slims. 32 ACP isn't an ideal cartridge for self-defense, but it's better than nothing. If it's what you've got and you're comfortable with it; go for it.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Slims

I know you are screwing with me, but the OP is not talking about a .32 ACP, he is talking about the even more antiquated and less powerful .32 long.

Coconuts just work out as well as watermelons...Because they are somewhat hollow they don't 'explode' the way a watermelon does when shot.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Walt

It was a typo. You still suck, though.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

This explains your fascination for medieval weaponry completely.

...

I'm not going to touch this thread until I can come up with someone witty for the "revolver vs. auto" debate.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

woohog1

Thanks for the info guys, and thanks to SF, for leading us down a completely different road
Thats basically what I was looking for, just some comparisons.
She has had military training, as well as gunsite training, I have no doubt her skill to hit a watermelon standing on a post LOL.
I currently am using 88 grain lead round nose, since that was all remington had at the time. However I will soon be casting some 92 grain hollow points myself (yes I know what I am doing, have done it since I was just a wee little lad)
Thanks for the info guys, yall rock!

__________________
God created man, Sam Colt made them equal.

Zeraph

I just died laughing

debaser

I almost made an African vs. European Swallow reference, before realizing how inappropriate that would be...

__________________

Walt

Well played, you magnificent bastard. That just made my day.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

White people. Seriously.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

debaser

Who's white?

__________________

Fire

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Mood the more as our might lessens

JK1RK

well, I actually Just had to chime in. The .32 acp which is balistically simular to the .32 s&w long. has a velocity of 900- 925 ft/s and total impact energy of 120 to 125 ft/lbf. great stopping power ehh not really. will it do the job? yes. brandishing a gun as a weapon. is a felony. In the great sate of california its a class c felony, and stange again you live in the the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, In said country its illegal to even own a firearm. Since you one have never fired a gun, live in a country in wich possesion of one is illegal, and only source of so call knowledge is wikipedia which is written by at time unqaulified people, and socom or splintercell. Stick with what you really know which judging by you post are butter and toast and cunty fingers.