US Army Picks MultiCam for Afghanistan Units - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ChrisJericho · 02-25-2010, 10:04 PM

While this isn't directly a thread about weaponry, I came across this article today and I think it will be interesting to many people who are into camo and multicam in particular.

Army Picks New Camo for Afghanistan Units

Hopefully with more military personnel adopting multicam, there will be some cheap surplus for us civilians ! I've contemplated picking up some multicam stuff in the past but it is on the pricey side.

Plan9 · 02-25-2010, 11:28 PM

As has been said elsewhere on the Web: "Look, ma! They painted a turd multicam."

ACUs are garbage regardless of camo pattern. Pajamas with Velcro / zippers. Unacceptable.

Wear some BDUs for a few days in the woods and then switch into ACUs. You'll want the BDUs back.

Slims · 02-26-2010, 05:14 AM

Wow, that timing is perfect. We just got orders stating that under no circumstances will we wear Multicam.

Plan9 · 02-26-2010, 07:36 AM

Don't worry, the Fobbits will have it.

Pearl Trade · 02-26-2010, 03:06 PM

I've heard: MultiCam works great, ACU in general sucks. The ACU camo, and the ACU design itself. Just what I've heard. If the soldiers like the MC, I'm all for it.

KirStang · 02-26-2010, 03:22 PM

(Talking out of my ass here) Have guys seen photos of guys wearing UCP in the field? Sticks out like a sore thumb.

Pearl Trade · 02-26-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

(Talking out of my ass here) Have guys seen photos of guys wearing UCP in the field? Sticks out like a sore thumb.

I think the Army thought they would only be fighting in cement filled areas, even then it doesn't help.

Canine · 02-27-2010, 04:36 PM

Multicam is great. Everyones known that it would become the official uniform for two years but I'm glad that its finally official. I've always thought that ACUs had a sort of retro-scifi look to them, which isn't suited to combat environments too well. They rip way too easily too :/
@plan 9, I think you're thinking of a different pattern. Multicam isn't an ACU style, its more of a lighter colored BDU with smaller and tighter patterns. They're all velcro-y like ACUs though.

KirStang · 02-27-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canine

Multicam is great. Everyones known that it would become the official uniform for two years but I'm glad that its finally official. I've always thought that ACUs had a sort of retro-scifi look to them, which isn't suited to combat environments too well. They rip way too easily too :/
@plan 9, I think you're thinking of a different pattern. Multicam isn't an ACU style, its more of a lighter colored BDU with smaller and tighter patterns. They're all velcro-y like ACUs though.

I don't think Plan9's comment was so much at the pattern (which I agree, MC is pretty damn good), but rather at the garment itself. No love for velcros, zippers and akwardly positioned pockets?

Canine · 02-27-2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

I don't think Plan9's comment was so much at the pattern (which I agree, MC is pretty damn good), but rather at the garment itself. No love for velcros, zippers and akwardly positioned pockets?

I misread his post, thought he was commenting on the pattern. But even so, I think the ACU uniform itself (as in the style in which it is made, not the pattern) is better than BDUs, at least when deployed. When I came into the army BDUs were just starting to be phased out so I didn't get to wear them that much, but they're a hassle to keep maintained and they get raggy pretty quick if you don't dry clean them. ACUs/MC can just be tossed in a washer and they're fine. The velcro can be convenient as you don't have to have everything resewn for every new uniform you get, but when it wears down. MCs have slightly redesigned (and now better) pockets , but they're largely the same as ACUs, just more durable.

Slims · 02-28-2010, 01:07 AM

The Velro on ACU's is perfect for the office warrior, but is absolutely useless for people in the field.

It sticks to things it isn't supposed to causing a constant distraction, does not secure pockets well (try walking around with a grenade in your cargo pocket, there is no way to keep it closed on the ACU), wears out quickly and is generally a mute point as SOF Units don't wear it on missions and Conventional Units have to wear all their patches anyways (so why have velcro?).

KirStang · 02-28-2010, 08:02 AM

Saw this on M4C

Here you see both patterns in stark contrast.

Canine · 02-28-2010, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slims

The Velro on ACU's is perfect for the office warrior, but is absolutely useless for people in the field.

It sticks to things it isn't supposed to causing a constant distraction, does not secure pockets well (try walking around with a grenade in your cargo pocket, there is no way to keep it closed on the ACU), wears out quickly and is generally a mute point as SOF Units don't wear it on missions and Conventional Units have to wear all their patches anyways (so why have velcro?).

Most guys who have grenades carry them in a grenade pouch with a non-velcroed plastic clip, which is attached to their IOTV. You're asking for trouble if you put a grenade in your cargo pocket, velcroed or not. And the SOF guys out here actually use MC already (velcro and all) - its the non-SOF that use the digi patterns. But I agree with your main point, velcro is indeed useless. Velcro is minorly useful in that you don't have to resew every time a patch comes off or you earn a skill badge/tab, but thats about as far as its use goes.

Plan9 · 02-28-2010, 03:39 PM

Canine, the only difference between the care of BDUs/DCUs and ACUs is AR 670-1.

...

I guess we come from different generations. I spent most of my time in BDUs and DCUs and can't stand ACUs, especially the zippers and Velcro. Also: Fuck pin-on tower-of-power badges. That shit should have never been brought back. It was a huge step back in common sense. My old boss used to joke that his drill sergeant shield was his "Garrison SAPI." Completely asinine. God, my blood pressure goes up just thinking about that garbage.

I never got the logic of switching patches on ACUs as a way to save money for anybody, especially lower enlisted guys. The patches don't fade to match the rest of the uniform, wrinkle up and fail to meet ridiculous starched-but-not garrison standards, require washing as much as the rest of the uniform, and get lost easily when donning armor, entering / exiting vehicles, airborne ops, or doing anything in the field other than standing at parade rest.

I have about two dozen uniforms and I actually liked spending the measly $10 to put cloth name tapes, badges and patches on my BDU/ACUs. Far from permanent and very durable. I could pull a uniform off the hangar not think twice about putting it on. When I had ACUs, I ended up buying name tapes and rank for all of the uniforms anyway. And some of my guys still thought it was funny to switch my rank patch with the platoon sergeant's.

...

It's pretty clear that ACUs were designed by people who don't have to work for a living even if they are in uniform.

Walt · 02-28-2010, 04:25 PM

Eh. I liked the BDU's because my pockets would stay closed, they weren't FUCKING TEAL, and because they were idiot proof. Some Korean chick sews all of the patches, etc and everything stays where its supposed to. One less thing to worry about.

I hate the ACU's for all of the aforementioned reasons and would like to add:

The stupid drawstrings on the cargo pockets that fall out the first time you wash your pants.
The pen holders.
The zipper on the blouse that eats skin as soon as you add body armor and a little movement.
The pouches in the knees and elbows intended for some sort of foam padding inserts (never seen'em). If one is intent on spending that much time on their knees, they can use the issued hard plastic knee pads or join the Navy.

That being said, I wish the Army would spend a little less time engaging in various forms of fashion faggotry and a little more time...i dunno...training.

Plan9 · 02-28-2010, 04:34 PM

Walt, I see it as more of... an aquamarine-cyan... with a hint of... oh, chartreuse. *kills self*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt

I hate the ACU's for all of the aforementioned reasons and would like to add:

The stupid drawstrings on the cargo pockets that fall out the first time you wash your pants.
The pen holders.
The zipper on the blouse that eats skin as soon as you add body armor and a little movement.
The pouches in the knees and elbows intended for some sort of foam padding inserts (never seen'em). If one is intent on spending that much time on their knees, they can use the issued hard plastic knee pads or join the Navy.

Yes, yes.

- Rank located at nipple level. It's annoying for males and insulting for females (ha!). I can't tell the difference between a E6 and the SMA at 15 paces. I miss collar rank. I wish we had Vietnam-era enlisted rank patches... put that shit on the sleeve so I can see it.
- Pen holders that don't actually hold pens (chopsticks?), let alone something useful like a map marker or a Sharpie.
- Zipper on the blouse that immediately deadlines the uniform once it fails vs. just losing a button. How do I fix a zipper in the field?
- The cargo pockets on the chest that are useless in capacity, closure, and placement. Is that where I'm supposed to put my lunch money, Mom? I can't fit anything useful in there and why would I want anything under my armor anyway? I keep my laminated leader's card and notebook in one of the shoulder pockets. I have no clue what I'd put in those chest pockets... maybe MRE cheese to keep it from getting hard in the cold?
- The cargo pockets on the trousers that don't have the leading edge of top flap sewn down, are "secured" with Velcro and feature a silly drawstring. If you're going with something lame like a drawstring, at least have it routed so it doesn't given you a 10" tail when you cinch it down.
- Velcro pouches in knees and elbow designed for foam pads = tear a hole in the weak uniform fabric while providing little actual joint protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt

That being said, I wish the Army would spend a little less time engaging in various forms of fashion faggotry and a little more time...i dunno...training.

But it's cheaper to play dress-up. And you don't get all sweaty doing it. Those guys in charge of procurement don't like getting dirty.

...

Urban legend has it that ACUs were the bastard child of an attempt at one-upping the USMC's then-new marpat uniform (not bad) and trying to be high speed like "Ess Eff" guys. It's obvious said child has severe birth defects and likes to play with paper dolls and can't the complexity of buttons.

Canine · 02-28-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Canine, the only difference between the care of BDUs/DCUs and ACUs is AR 670-1.

...

I guess we come from different generations. I spent most of my time in BDUs and DCUs and can't stand ACUs, especially the zippers and Velcro.

I'm exactly the opposite. I joined in early 2007, which was just as they were beginning to integrate ACUs into the army. I was issued BDUs in Basic Training but as soon as I finished airborne school and went to my first unit, they insisted that we new guys wear ACUs only. So I've got very little personal experience with BDUs.

That said, I haven't really had much trouble with the velcro. I've been deployed for six months now, and admittedly almost half of that has been on a fob (although I am in a combat-arms MOS), but in the months I was doing patrols, I never had any problems with my velcro patches. Not that I'm defending them against traditional sewn-on patches, but they haven't given me any reason to really have strong opinions on them. I might be mistaken, but I think that parts of the MC uniform are sewn-on, like nametapes and branch.

debaser · 03-01-2010, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt

The pen holders.

These are the first thing that are cut off of mine when I get them, followed closely by the ankle drawstrings and calf pockets...

Slims · 03-01-2010, 06:46 AM

The Grenade-in-cargo pocket reference was just an example, though I have on several occasions had to stuff extra grenades into any pocket available....but usually got the job done with my dump-bag which is also my repository for energy drinks and snacks. The point of my comment is that you can't count on the pockets remaining closed and keeping your *valuable* items inside, whatever they may be.

Most SOF guys are wearing BDU's or DCU's on mission now rather than Multicam as the whole uniform debate was considered too much of a distraction. Many still do wear it, but it is no longer allowed throughout much (but not all) of the SOF community in Afghanistan. It is considered the superior pattern by most people, but their command was taking a lot of heat for allowing soldiers to wear 'non-authorized' uniforms.

Also, the CRYE Multicam uniforms most units were issuing are not 'just like ACU's' They are sewn completely different (sturdier) with less velcro, better wear-point protection and integrated (real) knee pads.

Canine: The whole point of having velcro-patches was so you can take them off when out on patrol....it was an idea adopted from the SF modified uniforms with velcro so they could run with sterile uniforms. Since conventional forces are not allowed to wear sterile uniforms it is a mute point....you might as well just sew patches on once and be done with it. Likewise, the SOF community doesn't typically wear ACU's on mission so they don't need the velcro either.

remy1492 · 03-01-2010, 08:30 PM

as for the COLOR of mutlicam, its about time, that gray tint of Army and USAF crap is neat for video games but totally useless in a jungle or desert alike.

I have a pair of multicam pants and they are tough, quality made and a great color to hunt or mow the lawn with.
The next best thing is OD green

KirStang · 03-02-2010, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remy1492

as for the COLOR of mutlicam, its about time, that gray tint of Army and USAF crap is neat for video games but totally useless in a jungle or desert alike.

I have a pair of multicam pants and they are tough, quality made and a great color to hunt or mow the lawn with.
The next best thing is OD green

Off topic, but I have a pair of Multi-cam trousers from Propper. I ripped the crotch seam in a carbine course--and I'm low speed all drag. Can't imagine what would happen if a bearded hero (TM) was using it.

Otherwise yea. I love doing yardwork in them. The mud and woodchips just add character

.

Plan9 · 03-02-2010, 07:03 AM

Meh, people were blowing crotches left and right on my last deployment. ACUs seemed to be particularly bad in that department. It was nice air conditioning for my nuts during the summer (never wore underwear), but the second that desert winter hit I was stitching 'em up quick. I had three uniforms outta six with sewn crotches by the end. Raggedy as hell, I tell ya.

...

It's funny. If you sew it shut with black or brown thread, it looks like you've got hairy labia. There were a ton of jokes about that going around, too.

"Hey, dude... your pussy's hanging out." "Check it out, bro... I grew a vagina after lunch."

FelixP · 03-27-2010, 08:08 PM

Yeah, I've never worn ACUs, but having seem then plenty of times I imagine they would suck. I love my MARPAT cammies, especially the near total lack of velcro (only the breast pockets have it, and the breast pockets have a better angle). The Army should just switch to MARPAT...HAHAHAHAHAHHA! No, but seriously, anything would be better than ACUs.

Plan9 · 03-27-2010, 08:28 PM

Yeah, I would have voted for the Marine uniforms over ACUs.

FelixP · 03-28-2010, 08:20 AM

The mulitcam looks pretty badass. I doubt that we'll perfect universal camo anytime soon, but multicam comes alot closer than the ACUs ever did.

Now I'm going to rant about the ACUs: nothing says "I'm a fearsome warrior." like having pens sticking out of your forearm. And what's the deal with the draw strings? I guess the idea is that they'll get caught on branches when you're on patrol and make as much noise as possible. And velcro-on rank insignia? Garbage.

KirStang · 03-28-2010, 08:48 AM

Pictures from M4C of guys in A-stan wearing MC

02-25-2010, 10:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	US Army Picks MultiCam for Afghanistan Units While this isn't directly a thread about weaponry, I came across this article today and I think it will be interesting to many people who are into camo and multicam in particular. Army Picks New Camo for Afghanistan Units Hopefully with more military personnel adopting multicam, there will be some cheap surplus for us civilians ! I've contemplated picking up some multicam stuff in the past but it is on the pricey side. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-25-2010, 11:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	As has been said elsewhere on the Web: "Look, ma! They painted a turd multicam." ACUs are garbage regardless of camo pattern. Pajamas with Velcro / zippers. Unacceptable. Wear some BDUs for a few days in the woods and then switch into ACUs. You'll want the BDUs back. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

02-26-2010, 05:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Wow, that timing is perfect. We just got orders stating that under no circumstances will we wear Multicam. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

02-26-2010, 07:36 AM	#4 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Don't worry, the Fobbits will have it. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

02-26-2010, 03:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
Pearl Trade Addict Location: Houston, Texas	I've heard: MultiCam works great, ACU in general sucks. The ACU camo, and the ACU design itself. Just what I've heard. If the soldiers like the MC, I'm all for it. __________________ Our revenge will be the laughter of our children. Give me convenience or give me death!

02-26-2010, 03:22 PM	#6 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	(Talking out of my ass here) Have guys seen photos of guys wearing UCP in the field? Sticks out like a sore thumb.

02-27-2010, 04:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Canine Upright Location: Fort Bragg, NC / Kandahar Province, Afghanistan	Multicam is great. Everyones known that it would become the official uniform for two years but I'm glad that its finally official. I've always thought that ACUs had a sort of retro-scifi look to them, which isn't suited to combat environments too well. They rip way too easily too :/ @plan 9, I think you're thinking of a different pattern. Multicam isn't an ACU style, its more of a lighter colored BDU with smaller and tighter patterns. They're all velcro-y like ACUs though. __________________ Awesome sig coming to a post near you! If you say plz because its shorter than please, then I'll say no because its shorter than yes.

02-28-2010, 01:07 AM	#11 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	The Velro on ACU's is perfect for the office warrior, but is absolutely useless for people in the field. It sticks to things it isn't supposed to causing a constant distraction, does not secure pockets well (try walking around with a grenade in your cargo pocket, there is no way to keep it closed on the ACU), wears out quickly and is generally a mute point as SOF Units don't wear it on missions and Conventional Units have to wear all their patches anyways (so why have velcro?). __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

02-28-2010, 08:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	Saw this on M4C Here you see both patterns in stark contrast.

02-28-2010, 03:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Canine, the only difference between the care of BDUs/DCUs and ACUs is AR 670-1. ... I guess we come from different generations. I spent most of my time in BDUs and DCUs and can't stand ACUs, especially the zippers and Velcro. Also: Fuck pin-on tower-of-power badges. That shit should have never been brought back. It was a huge step back in common sense. My old boss used to joke that his drill sergeant shield was his "Garrison SAPI." Completely asinine. God, my blood pressure goes up just thinking about that garbage. I never got the logic of switching patches on ACUs as a way to save money for anybody, especially lower enlisted guys. The patches don't fade to match the rest of the uniform, wrinkle up and fail to meet ridiculous starched-but-not garrison standards, require washing as much as the rest of the uniform, and get lost easily when donning armor, entering / exiting vehicles, airborne ops, or doing anything in the field other than standing at parade rest. I have about two dozen uniforms and I actually liked spending the measly $10 to put cloth name tapes, badges and patches on my BDU/ACUs. Far from permanent and very durable. I could pull a uniform off the hangar not think twice about putting it on. When I had ACUs, I ended up buying name tapes and rank for all of the uniforms anyway. And some of my guys still thought it was funny to switch my rank patch with the platoon sergeant's. ... It's pretty clear that ACUs were designed by people who don't have to work for a living even if they are in uniform. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 02-28-2010 at 04:07 PM..

02-28-2010, 04:25 PM	#15 (permalink)
Walt I'm calmer than you are, dude Location: North Carolina	Eh. I liked the BDU's because my pockets would stay closed, they weren't FUCKING TEAL, and because they were idiot proof. Some Korean chick sews all of the patches, etc and everything stays where its supposed to. One less thing to worry about. I hate the ACU's for all of the aforementioned reasons and would like to add: The stupid drawstrings on the cargo pockets that fall out the first time you wash your pants. The pen holders. The zipper on the blouse that eats skin as soon as you add body armor and a little movement. The pouches in the knees and elbows intended for some sort of foam padding inserts (never seen'em). If one is intent on spending that much time on their knees, they can use the issued hard plastic knee pads or join the Navy. That being said, I wish the Army would spend a little less time engaging in various forms of fashion faggotry and a little more time...i dunno...training. __________________ Calmer than you are...

03-01-2010, 06:46 AM	#19 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	The Grenade-in-cargo pocket reference was just an example, though I have on several occasions had to stuff extra grenades into any pocket available....but usually got the job done with my dump-bag which is also my repository for energy drinks and snacks. The point of my comment is that you can't count on the pockets remaining closed and keeping your valuable items inside, whatever they may be. Most SOF guys are wearing BDU's or DCU's on mission now rather than Multicam as the whole uniform debate was considered too much of a distraction. Many still do wear it, but it is no longer allowed throughout much (but not all) of the SOF community in Afghanistan. It is considered the superior pattern by most people, but their command was taking a lot of heat for allowing soldiers to wear 'non-authorized' uniforms. Also, the CRYE Multicam uniforms most units were issuing are not 'just like ACU's' They are sewn completely different (sturdier) with less velcro, better wear-point protection and integrated (real) knee pads. Canine: The whole point of having velcro-patches was so you can take them off when out on patrol....it was an idea adopted from the SF modified uniforms with velcro so they could run with sterile uniforms. Since conventional forces are not allowed to wear sterile uniforms it is a mute point....you might as well just sew patches on once and be done with it. Likewise, the SOF community doesn't typically wear ACU's on mission so they don't need the velcro either. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

03-01-2010, 08:30 PM	#20 (permalink)
remy1492 Crazy Location: CA TX LU	as for the COLOR of mutlicam, its about time, that gray tint of Army and USAF crap is neat for video games but totally useless in a jungle or desert alike. I have a pair of multicam pants and they are tough, quality made and a great color to hunt or mow the lawn with. The next best thing is OD green

03-02-2010, 07:03 AM	#22 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Meh, people were blowing crotches left and right on my last deployment. ACUs seemed to be particularly bad in that department. It was nice air conditioning for my nuts during the summer (never wore underwear), but the second that desert winter hit I was stitching 'em up quick. I had three uniforms outta six with sewn crotches by the end. Raggedy as hell, I tell ya. ... It's funny. If you sew it shut with black or brown thread, it looks like you've got hairy labia. There were a ton of jokes about that going around, too. "Hey, dude... your pussy's hanging out." "Check it out, bro... I grew a vagina after lunch." __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

03-27-2010, 08:08 PM	#23 (permalink)
FelixP Insane Location: I'm up they see me I'm down.	Yeah, I've never worn ACUs, but having seem then plenty of times I imagine they would suck. I love my MARPAT cammies, especially the near total lack of velcro (only the breast pockets have it, and the breast pockets have a better angle). The Army should just switch to MARPAT...HAHAHAHAHAHHA! No, but seriously, anything would be better than ACUs. __________________ Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me "I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

03-27-2010, 08:28 PM	#24 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah, I would have voted for the Marine uniforms over ACUs. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

03-28-2010, 08:20 AM	#25 (permalink)
FelixP Insane Location: I'm up they see me I'm down.	The mulitcam looks pretty badass. I doubt that we'll perfect universal camo anytime soon, but multicam comes alot closer than the ACUs ever did. Now I'm going to rant about the ACUs: nothing says "I'm a fearsome warrior." like having pens sticking out of your forearm. And what's the deal with the draw strings? I guess the idea is that they'll get caught on branches when you're on patrol and make as much noise as possible. And velcro-on rank insignia? Garbage. __________________ Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me "I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

03-28-2010, 08:48 AM	#26 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	Pictures from M4C of guys in A-stan wearing MC