zombie_killer

Hey everyone--
I am very new to shooting. I have gone to the range with friends and shot some various pistols. I want to purchase my first pistol so I can practice practice practice. I may be getting into Law Enforcement down the line in my career so I want to prepare myself with a pistol that would most likely be issued.

Any current or former LE that could make a suggestion of a service weapon for a beginner? I would be interested hearing where you have worked/are working and what gun you were issued.

Thanks

Plan9

Service pistol recommendation:

The Glock 17/19 (9mm) or 22/23 (.40) and the Sig P226 / P229 (9mm / .40) models are very popular with law enforcement officers. The Beretta M92/M96 (9mm / .40) are out there. S&W automatics are a rare breed. You can't go wrong with a Glock 17. It's THE handgun for many armed professionals.

First gun recommendation:

For an initial handgun, however, I would be inclined to recommend a sturdy .22 pistol such as the Ruger MkII or a double action revolver in .357 Magnum / .38 Special. The .22 will allow you to become comfortable with shooting fundamentals and practice on the cheap while the .357 Magnum / .38 Special double action will help you build up your ability to squeeze a trigger smoothly and will never be obsolete as a target / defensive handgun.

Other ideas:

Check out gun auction sites such as Gunbroker.com. Use the key word "police trade." You'll see what I'm talking about above. Used guns are good.

Relevant qualifications:

I'm not a cop, but I've been handcuffed by them.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

telekinetic

Just get a Glock. Either the fullsize or compact will do. I see no reason to get a .22 pistol as a first gun, since you've spent almost as much as you would have buying a 'real' gun that is of some non-target practice use. The $200-300 for a decent .22 pistol buys a heckofa lot of center fire ammo.

__________________
twisted no more

Plan9

Offensive elitist.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Stare At The Sun

Baby Desert Eagle in 9mm. I love mine.

Shoots great and looks great.

Plan9

... where is StrangeFamous?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

Glock 21. or SIG p220.
Cops in my area carry .45.


9mm is a puny round anyways ... (ducks)

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

I wish .45 was more common around here. Maybe they'd stop dumping 17 rounds into a suspect before he went down.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

Or teach them the (politically incorrect) failure drill ... two to the high torso. If they get up then one round right between teh eyes.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Force 10

You'll want a single action, hammerless, no external safetys. The DA/SA's like the sigs are being phased out. They have way too much going on with them. The double action only is for dummies who don't get training. GET TRAINING. You are the safety, not the pistol. I agree with Plan9 that you need something that you're comfortable with. The problem with the .22 is that you wont find anything setup like what you'll be carrying in the department. They'll all have external safeties, or be revolvers or be designed like a target .22. Nothing like what you'll be issued. Get a glock or a s&w m&p in a full size frame, 9mm. You'll like 9mm, so will your gf/wife. And with the proper ammunition, the 9mm will be just fine for the night stand.

FelixP

Some failure to stop drills involve two to the chest, one to the pelvis. Not as hard core as a pure mozambique drill, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

telekinetic

A pelvis shot isn't a bad one to take anyways...the psychological impact is pretty great, not to mention if you fracture the pelvis, even a motivated criminal can't continue to advance, and it doesn't take much of a nick in a femoral to keep somebody down. Also, I have heard that the most common under-stress error is to shoot high, which, on an attempted pelvis shot, still keeps you on target.

__________________
twisted no more

Plan9

Stating the obvious, but there is a big difference between shooting a handgun and fighting with one. Formal training is mandatory for success.

I'd been shooting you-name-it for years and a few sessions with a carbine/pistol instructor improved my game exponentially.

...

I figure the old pelvis shot is best used for occasions where an assailant is drugged up or wearing body armor. I do not believe that it should be something that you practice at 7+ yards every time you go out to the range. Training to hit center mass, time and time again, is what will build up the muscle memory you need to put rounds on target when you're stressed the fuck out and can barely keep the gun stable. One good reason: it's "center mass," meaning there is room to fling a wild one and still get a hit. Because only hits count. Sure, you can practice aiming at alternate spots such as the pelvis or head, but the bulk of your training should be focused on brainwashing yourself into drawing and putting rounds into the sternum.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Plan9

And by "single action, hammerless, no safety" are you referring to Glock pistols?

I'm not a fan of double action triggers, but they're hardly for dummies. The P226 is a solid gun.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Fire

pretty much as above- I personally dont have a glock, and my S+W is stainless instead of plastic, but its the future, and you got to admit they are sturdy- and I am going to go glock eventually just for the ease of owner maintainability- all the parts are, as I understand, literally drop in instead of the kind of drop ins you find in a lot of earlier models - my 5906 extractor, for instance, is not designed to be replaced by a mere mortal, its instead a "requires gunsmithy fidling " part..... not great in something that WILL eventually need replaced......

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

KirStang

IIRC, Cops here in Baltimore use the Glock 22 (.40 S&W). I'd say buying a used Glock from a Police Trade in (Can be found for $~350) and taking a class to teach you fundamentals (sight picture, trigger squeeze, failure drills) will be very well worth your money.

Here: Linky Firearms, Guns, Rifles. Grain Valley, Missouri. (Gen III Glock 17 (9mm w/ built in rail and better grip) for $389)

Walt

I will second Plan 9’s suggestion of a .22 LR for your first pistol:

1) It’s about the only thing that’s still cheap to shoot, meaning you can afford to shoot more.
2) They generally have zero recoil which is a great feature as it allows new and seasoned shooters to sort out and hone their fundamentals (sight picture, grip, stance, trigger manipulation, shooting to reset, etc.) All of this training will transfer over when you pick up a center fire pistol – which can be a bit overwhelming if you haven’t developed the basics yet.
3) Yes, the controls like the safety, slide and mag release are generally laid out differently than service pistols. So what? Anybody who carries a gun for a living should be great with what they carry, but competent with everything. You can still develop basic marskmanship and practice movement/failure drills and quick reloads.

As far as .22 pistols go, you really cant go wrong with a Ruger Mk II, though they are a son of a bitch to disassemble. I’ve also heard great things about the Browning Buck.

As far as service pistols go, I would go to a range that rents pistols and shoot whatever you can get your hands on in 9mm and 40. All of the major manufacturers (Glock, HK, S&W, Sig) turn out phenomenally dependable service pistols. Some have shitty triggers, others have shitty sights. All that can be easily replaced as there is a huge industry devoted solely to manufacturing after-market parts to suit any number of shooting needs and styles.

Find a pistol that just feels good in your hands. If it feels good, it will become an extension of your body that points where you want it to every time. Everything else can be fixed.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

FelixP

I've never fired anything chambered for it, but I hear the .357 SIG is pretty effective, with slightly less recoil than the .357 Magnum, as well as slightly less stopping power.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

The_Dunedan

.357 SiG is dead, DEAD, D-E-A-D. Fewer than a half-dozen LEO agencies nationwide have opted to standardise on it, the ammo is very expensive and -very- hard to find, only a handful of weapons are chambered in it, and it has severe over-penetration problems. Very little reloading dope exists, the selection of projectiles is minimal at best, and the report/muzzle-flare are HORRENDOUS. The only worse choice in "production" rounds would be .45GAP. Neat novelty round, but not what you want to standardise on "out of the gate."

First get a .22. Practice with it. A LOT. You'll be able to afford it, and Fundamentals=win. Then get something in 9mm/.40/.45 for an auto, .38SPL/.357Mag for a revolver. Most LEOs these days carry .40s; a "happy medium" between the 9mm's capacity and then .45ACP's frontal area and KET.

Plan9

I love .357 Sig.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

raptor9k

deleted

The_Dunedan

I'm not saying .357 SiG is a bad round; with its' power and penetration (and the limitations that implies) taken into account it's quite impressive. It would make a nifty handgun-hunting round. But for primary self-defense, much less a first purchase of such a weapon? Hardly practical IMO; rather like choosing to carry a revolver in .41 Magnum. Interesting, powerful round with impressive ballistics in an attractive package...until you try to feed it. If it had come along 30yrs ago, when modern HP rounds were beginning to be introduced, it would probably be a splendid choice by now. But unfortunately, with today's ammunition manufacture severely constrained by the demands of two shooting wars (and all the training and "other uses" that ammo must be put to), manufacturers don't put much energy into niche rounds like .357 Sig of .41 Mag. Hell, have you tried finding .380 in the past year? .30-30? .45LC? If the wars are ever over and the round is allowed to develop outside of its' current niche civilian market, at some point the future it may become a practical choice for self-defense carry. I just can't really "sell" it in good conscience, knowing the difficulties on the consumer end. These combined with the penetration issue...with a good, very fast-expanding HP I could see it. With a frangible bullet (if such is ever invented ), maaaaybe. But especially for an LEO, the impressive penetration that would make this such a good hunting round makes it a potential liability in a crowded situation: the biggest part of the reason it's so rare among LE agencies. There are a few more weapons available in the chambering every year, but the ammunition situation remains static. Lots of advertisements, but little street data and less availability. Ironically, during the Sept'08-Jan'09 phase of the recent Gun Rush, this reduced initial demand meant that for awhile .357 Sig was easier to find than 9mm. There had always been so little ammo that few people bought the guns, so supplies took longer to be cleaned out. Then the word got out; people who can afford to feed a .357 SiG habitually can frequently afford to buy a -lot- of ammo, and they did. It disappeared. Similar circumstances occurred with 10mm and the upper end of the heavy revolver scale. For a time, it was easier to find .460 S&W or .50 Action Express in quantity than it was to find .380 in equal quantity. Now, everything conventional is just barely gettable, most of the time. Some of the time. Maybe. I just couldn't recommend it from a sales standpoint for what the OP has in mind.

Plan9

Whoa. Wonder what happens if I say "I love .356 TSW," in this thread.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Force 10

Yeah man, that's exactly what I'm saying - glock, S&W m&p's, etc. And you're right, DA is hardly for dummies. That was a dumb statement. Though the bottom line with double action is your finger stroke is much longer and typically harder. Your tendons move much more - your hand moves much more. You'll tend to be more on target if you're shooting a single action correctly (focus on trigger break AND trigger reset) vs. a double. Simply because the gun moves more while pulling the trigger with a DA.

Lay your hand down on a table with a DA and cycle the trigger (unloaded of course) and do the same with a single action (catching the link) and you'll see the muzzle movement is impossible to stop. With a SA, it's much more controllable. <- that's what I meant to say.

Sig is far superior to many, many, many pistols. Though with current configurations, I'm inclined to carry something different. Less we talk about the 1911's. Just like H&Ks. Jesus I love the feel of the P30 Variants...but again, not for carry. Too much going on.

I'll even go further and say that while I truly enjoy the Sprg XD/XDM's, I wouldn't carry one. The ambi mag release is easily depressed by a seat belt or by leaning against something. The mag release needs to be protected, against the body. The M&P is ambi but only if you manually place it on the other side. So are the gen 4 glocks. Much better ambi config. Left or right handed the mag release is secure. Furthermore, the Sprg XD/XDM's are only half ambi anyway. The slide lock is only on one side. The M&P is, to my knowledge, the only SA true ambi out there. Something to consider for you lefties.

wraithhibn

I love my MP.40

__________________
If you won't dress like the Victoria Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.

Plan9

I recommend the IMI Desert Eagle XIX in .50 AE.

It's pretty much the perfect all-around service pistol.

Lightweight, compact, and uses a common, potent round.

It'll accept a suppressor, flashlight, and night sights easily.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Dunedan

.356 TSW? Had one in the shop -years- back, I had to look up the round in Cartridges Of The World. Sounds like a cool cartridge, might make a good starting point for a 9mm/.32 wildcat.

Force 10

I was thinking more along the lines of a beretta tomcat in a .32. I think the .50, while much easier to find ammo for, is probably not as intimidating. One needs a little intimidation.

longbough

Did I miss something?
Since when is a Berretta Tomcat "intimidating"?
It looks like a water pistol ... only much less lethal.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

We all know that the Widley Survivor is a much better pocket pistol than the Beretta Tomcat.

...

(Longbough: These are lame gun jokes.)

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

Ahhh ... I wasn't quite sure ... you see, sarcasm doesn't translate well in text.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

Dude, I said Desert Eagle.

...

On a more serious note: Training with a service pistol is best accomplished with a quality holster. Don't scrimp on your gear. I'm a big fan of the Blackhawk Serpa and it's idiot-proof button retention. It'll mount with a belt loop, paddle, and the popular drop leg. Make sure your kit compliments your gun. Holster, mag carriers, and whatever else you use should survive the jump test as well as being rolled around on the gravel. Seems there are two types of kit guys out there: cheap dunces (anybody that uses UTG stuff) and full-out gearqueers (I still love you, KirStang). Find a happy medium. Quick access and retention. I buy new stuff when it'll improve my life enough to be worth it, but I'm notorious for reusing ancient shit.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Burned.

In all fairness it was *you* who told me about SERPA goodness . (As an aside, they're GREAT holsters. So much so that I switched from Inside Waist Band to Outside Waist Band with cover garment for the SERPA.)

And to throw a huge screw in to the discussion. Get an HK P30S. Fucking Sweet Pistol. It'll outshoot any craptastic pistol they issue you when you become an LEO. =P



PURE SEX.

Slims

If you want to learn good habits from the ground up then I recommend a .22LR pistol...for the reasons well stated above.

If you want a duty-style pistol right off the bat you really can't go wrong with a Glock 17 or Glock 19 (the semi-compact version). They are reasonably priced, rock solid reliable, and are used by PD's across the country.

I am suggesting a 9mm as you are inexperienced and the more recoil a cartridge has the more opportunities for you to develop bad habits before good ones which will cripple your ability to ever shoot well.

I also recommend you stay away from the ultra expensive (read: HK) or exotic pistols. Some, like the USP are fantastic weapons, but cost a lot more with very little additional gain.


Glocks are so common for good reason: they are simple, reliable, easy to shoot and easier to maintain.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

I recommend jumping balls first into the shooting arena after banging out a few rounds from the shitty rental guns at Blue Ridge Arsenal.

*gag*

Everybody is so obsessed with having cool toys and banging out the big rounds. Turns out most of those guys can't shoot worth a shit.

Mr. Telekinetic kinda pissed me off above with what I felt to be an incredibly ignorant statement. If a single particular type service pistol is the "only gun you'll ever own so why buy another?" then you seriously need to reevaluate your firearms training philosophy. As a cop? It'll get you killed.

Here's an interesting FBI report on police officers' [in]ability to shoot versus their "gangsta" criminal opponents: LINK

...

You know what they call a guy that who only owns a $2k AR and a $2k 1911? All show and no go.

...

Okay, I'll bite... you smarmy sonuvabitch. The H&K doesn't shoot much different than the Glock or S&W M&P (generally speaking, though my USP45 is like a death ray some days). They're much more expensive guns, harder to find items (mags, holster, parts) for, and are generally too snooty to take out on a date. While I do like the controls/trigger and my experience with H&K has been overwhelmingly positive, I wouldn't want one as a sidearm overseas nor would I recommend it to someone as their first or sole service pistol. I'll just stick with my original recommendation of a .22 auto or a DA .357.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."