cj2112

Don't fucking speak for me.

I would judge that you are not in good enough shape to have an average ability to fight.

But you are in below average shape.

He has training specific to the subject we are discussing. His words DO have more gravitas than yours.

Dude, seriously you have no idea wtf you're talking about. Until you gain some experience w/ large dogs, you really have no clue.

The_Dunedan

Nevermind. This is getting silly.

Shadowex3

Wait, claiming that doing something professionally makes someone more qualified to speak on that subject is arrogant?

__________________

Plan9

Wow. This thread is more awkward than the female dancers in that Robert Palmer "Simply Irresistible" music video.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

1 - I speak only for sensible people
2 - I think I am above getting into an argument with some guy online about whether I can fight or not. It doesnt actually have any impact on what I am saying, because I am talking about what an average person can do.
3 - I am making sensible arguments, backed up with logic and common sense. He is posting pictures of fat teenagers playing at being a star wars Jedi and saying "look at this fat and silly looking guy, thats you that is".

If that's youre idea of "gravitas" then I think I cant help you or enlighten you with my statements... I thought that stuff was funny when I was 14 and Newman and Baddiel used to do that joke.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

In what reality? You've -yet- to make a "sensible" post in Tilted Weaponry. Anywhere. Ever.

Which you are in no position to judge.

Not even remotely. If you -were- making sensible arguments, backed up with logic and common sense, would the professionals (like Walt) be on your side, or telling you that you're wrong? Think very carefully.

"Gravitas" was the reasonable and measured reply Walt gave (with video) on the last page. "Gravitas" was what you got when Walt was being polite enough to assume you'd at least take his profession, training, and experience into account. This, on the other hand, is the kind of reply you can expect to start getting when you continue to demand that other people take your recommendations (these based upon highly suspect "common sense" and observations) over those of a trained professional with years of experience.

And as for your statements "enlightening" anyone...puhLEEZE. The only "enlightenment" that's gone down in this thread is various people attempting to enlighten you, only to be reminded that one cannot enlighten the willfully, stubbornly, obstinately and proudly ignorant and unenlightenable. Despite your total lack of relevant training or experience (even on a social, nevermind professional level) with large dogs, despite the fact that you've been totally unable to come up with any workable support for your outlandish claims and suggestions, you expect other people to listen to you and your chest-thumping macho crap? And you expect other people to put this uninformed, uneducated, patently ridiculous blather above the opinions of a trained professional?

What, do you instruct your doctor on how to perform surgery as well? Policemen on how to find criminals? Snipers on how to shoot? Would you walk up to Michael Schumacher or Danica Patrick and start instructing them on how to drive? Or Peter Crouch on football? Because that's what you've been doing: positing that you know more about a given subject than a person trained in that subject who worked in that field for many years for a very demanding employer: this despite admitting to having -zero- experience, training, or even social screwing-around to back up your positions, positions which the -actual- professionals have informed you are unworkable and dangerous nonsense at best. Funnier yet, you've been demanding until you're all but blue in the face that -other- people, who have various degrees of experience themselves, take your word over that of the professional, in spite of the fact that every single one of these people, Pros and Joes, has been telling you that your "ideas" jive neither with reality, nor with their individual experiences, nor with anything they've ever heard from anybody with half a brain.

KirStang

I don't know about you all, but I feel like this thread's run it's course...

Strange Famous

What do you expect from me, that I should go and beat up a pit bull terrier to prove my point?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ring

No, Strange.

I expect you to stick to writing poetry. It's excellent writing.

You know about writing. You don't know a thing, about this subject.

I second the motion,
it's time to lock up this beast.

The_Dunedan

After making the claims you have, considering how frankly outlandish they are, that would be a good idea. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. That or realize that your claims might not be as accurate as you'd like to think, and take into consideration the opinions of others (especially trained/experienced professionals) before investing so much effort into the defense of the indefensible.

Best of all, of course, would be for you to -stop- pontificating upon matters in which you have no knowledge or experience. Ask opinions. Ask about experiences. Ask for sources. Hell, ask for directions. But don't come up to me (or anyone else) and tell me (or them) you know my/their job better than I/they do when you've never even attempted (much less succeeded) to carry it out.

That said, I'm done. Lock this thread or do whatever. I've said my piece.

Plan9

No, it just need more pictures and some '80s pop music.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Plan9

CHA... CHING.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

All this stuff about experience might be relevant if we were talking about something like brain surgery. But we are talking about dogs. In my life I have had enough opportunity to interact with dogs to form an opinion. My dad has a pet German Shepherd, with I would guess is about 75 lbs... sometimes jumps on you and wants to wrestle and play fight, and in those times it is not hard to measure your strength against the others and know if you are stronger or not.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Jinn

SF: Yea, just like tossing a shell casing around in your hands lets you measure the force of a bullet on impact.

I'm rather disappointed now at how many people have fallen for this obvious troll.

I know the desire to educate is strong, and I myself fall for it... but this is pushing the limit of ignorance, you *have* to know at this point it is largely feigned.

If not, then it's a lost cause.

Either way, stop feeding the trolls.

I'd say SF won't get it through his skull until he's actually attacked by an angry dog, but even then he'd blame it on something like the sun being in his eyes.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Plan9

...what if the dog has been on a diet of black powder and given PowerAde before the bout?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

LordEden

What about motor oil?

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

justjoined

Sorry to bump an old thread guys but I couldn't let this comment go without posting a reply. I actually found this page while googling a story about a 9 year old choking a "pissed-off" pitbull after it attacked one of his friends. (The 9 year old learned how to apply the choke in a bjj class.)

As it has already been said, most pitbull victims are children, seniors or other dogs. Keep in mind the average adult has no idea how to apply a proper choke hold, but with the right technique the average joe on this site can strangle a pitbull and there are ways of testing this without either the human or the pitbull getting seriously hurt. If you have an aggressive pitbull, muzzle it and apply a rear naked choke to it's neck. (The RNC is the best choke to use on a pitbull because it immobilizes their jerky movements.) Agitate the dog beforehand if you wish. If the dog bucks you off, theory destroyed. If the dog cannot physically escape from your grip, you'll know it because you'll basically have the leverage to pick him up off the ground. At that point your question will have been answered about whether a human can strangle a pitbull and at that point it would be time to let go of the hold.

The muzzle, btw, is only used for protection. It is not relevant to the central point of whether a human can or cannot strangle a pitbull so please don't bring it up as an excuse for your argument being legit because I assure you, it's not.

The_Dunedan

I'm not going to dignify that with a response except to point back up the thread to Walt's contributions.

Walt, in case you missed it, is a US Army Dog Handler by trade, training, and long experience. He says you, and Strange Famous, are wrong. I'll take his opinion over that of someone agreeing with Strange Famous.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

justjoined

First of all, there's no "[me] and strange famous".
There's me, with real examples of how the RNC has worked in real confrontations with pitbulls (google 9 year old boy/jonathan goulet/ralph gracie), and then there's strange famous with his admittedly strange methods of fighting/taming a pitbull. (grabbing it by the legs to break it's back?)

I don't agree with that at all, and frankly I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was siding with SF just because I disagree'd with one thing you said. Basically there's one practical way to kill a pitbull without a weapon and that is by strangulation. For some reason, though, you think I'm "wrong" because another man said so? I'm just here to tell you that you are misinformed if you think a pitbull cannot be strangled.

The_Dunedan

I don't think a pitbull physically cannot be strangled. Anything can be strangled with enough compression and/or leverage. I contend that the idea that anybody will be able to get into the body position required to do so effectively is ridiculous because, as was pointed out before, long before a human is able to "mount" the dog and correctly apply the hold you refer to, the dog will have begun removing important portions of their anatomy: probably beginning with the side of the human's face which is closest to their own teeth. The position required for a from-behind or figure-4 chokehold put the strangler's face well within the ability of a dog to grab, and shred. Walt having seen (and caused) this to happen, I take his word. Moreover, your suggested google search brings up nothing relevant to this discussion, just some information on various MMA competitors.

For the record: Walt is not just some internet schlub bragging about credentials that I cannot verify. He and I are flesh-and-blood shooting/drinking/camping buddies, and I have seen both the documentation and the dogs which prove his bona fides. -That- is why I take his word: because I have verified him to be an expert on the matter at hand, trained and employed by an extremely demanding agency (the US Army) to train and deploy dangerous animals both as law-enforcement tools and as weapons.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Slims

I can't believe I have missed all the action in this thread.

Here's my two cents:

For the past six months myself and a couple of the guys I work with have had to shoot stray dogs on at least a weekly basis. We are probably sitting at approximately 100 for the trip.

They die relatively easy when you hit them in a good spot. Brain (not just head), Spine, Heart. If not they can limp off. If they are in a fight they will continue the fight until they are physically unable to do so.

I have also seen military bite dogs drag people out of buildings who had no intention of coming out. They were too damaged by the pain/fear of having a dog ripping their arms to shreds to be able to do anything except move in the direction the dog was pulling...it had complete control.

I have been in a bite suit and told to fight the dog...it ended up knocking me down and getting my back/neck area.

Dogs move VERY fast when they are pissed off and are very violent in their motions. I doubt you will be able to get behind one in any circumstances....it is easier for the dog to pivot than for you to run in circles.

Even training to kill dogs doesn't go well. At one point we were given bite-sleeves and a rubber knife and told to follow our training. The dogs were so violent it was near impossible to get at them and even if successful we would have sustained an incredible amount of damage. We were trained in how to deal with dogs and armed, but it was still a ridiculous sight to see.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

justjoined

Dunedan, you're limiting your thoughts and conclusions to a one on one confrontation. I am not beating my chest or making assumptions on how I or anyone else would fare in a dark alley with a pitbull. That was your main point of contention with SF, I believe. My point was simply to demonstrate (with examples) how people with knowledge on chokes can and have strangled/thwarted pitbull attacks with proper technique in everyday situations; whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you.

If you're unfamiliar with MMA I'll just tell you that a 9 year
old boy weighing no more than 60 pounds soak and wet managed to sedate a large aggressive pitbull with a very simple choke he learned in 2 weeks. Jonathan Goulet (you got info on mma because he is an mma fighter) also choked a pitbull unconscious at a dog park. I'm throwing this technique out there because it's the most effective technique you can use on a dog. I have a cousin in Quebec that strangled a german sheppard with this technique as well. So the way I see it you can live your life in ignorance believing whatever your friends tell you and reside yourself to defeat in the event of a pitbull attack, or you can be open
to the benefits of learning new techniques that could potentially save your life. Either way it's no skin off my face.

FuglyStick

I ain't starting a fight in a pit-bull bar.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

Tully Mars

What a thread. I either seriously need a good nights sleep or this is the funniest shit I've read in a while.

Maybe both are true.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Walt

You mean BJJ, right? The dog in question was already engaged with a smaller dog and a little girl. The boy didn't fight off a dog that was attacking him. He blindsided a dog that was focused on another dog and a girl.

UPDATED: Boy stops dog attack with jiujitsu choke hold | Bakersfield Now - News, Weather and Sports | Local & Regional News

Again, the attacking dog was engaged with another dog at the time and got blindsided.

Jonathan Goulet Had to Choke a B*tch Out

Sorry champ. Your mystical and newfangled BJJ/MMA (what's that?!) isnt even the "most effective" technique when given the opportunity to blindside a dog that is attacking someone else. The subject of the thread, however, is to address effective ways to defend yourself from attacking dogs. In the situations relevant to the discussion, your kung-fu is no good. I have fought with more than a few ultra-aggressive dogs and have tried sprawling and transitioning to a rear-naked. I have also tried sprawling and using a gator roll/choke, as well as, going with my personal favorite; ground and pound. None have worked with any kind of consistency. Dogs are too fast and violent. The only thing achieved by doing so is to bring your face and throat down to the dogs level.

I certainly appreciate being indirectly called out, though I think what you meant to say was "you can be open to learning techniques that could potentially save the lives of others". The way I see it, you have contributed absolutely nothing to address the subject of the thread.

---------

How many Tapout and/or Affliction t-shirts do you own?

__________________
Calmer than you are...

justjoined

The way you see it, BJJ/MMA is some newfangled terminology that I invented. The way you see it, anyone who disagrees with you must own a Tapout and/or Affliction shirt. The way you see it, a pitbull that got blindsided by a freakin' 9 year old has no relevance to ANY discussion in this thread. The way you see it, I indirectly called you out on a personal level. I mean, can you be more self-centered if you tried? I wasn't even thinking about you until you responded, now I'm just bewildered by the effort you put into your multi-quote replies. If you really thought I contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion, all you had to do was ignore me.

LordEden

The way I see it, you bumped a thread that has basically pissed off a group of people (over and over again) on this forum and you didn't expect your response to rub someone wrong. That's just how I see it.

The internets is serious business, ya know?

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

FuglyStick

Don't make me choke out a hobbit.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

KirStang

Give me my bear-killer patches already.

Strange Famous

Well it is good to see another voice of common sense.

Another person who is reasonable enough to understand that a man who is twice as big, many times more intelligent, and twice as strong will easily be able to over power a dog if they use the right technique.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Isn't it common sense to listen to people who actually know things?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

I do not need to work in a kennels, nor do I need to be to lecture on the acquisitin of cognitive intelligence, to KNOW that humans are bigger and more intelligent than dogs.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Well, humans are generally bigger and more intelligent than dogs, but that's not what you're arguing here.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Pfft. Generally is an exaggeration. Step outside your Western Civilization text for a moment and examine the rest of the planet circa 2010.

Walt

For the mouth breathers: I understand the history and concept of mixed martial arts and Brazilian jujitsu. I was sarcastically mocking you for suggesting that it is some obscure cure-all. It's good for people, not so much for animals.

The Tapout/Affliction comment was in response to your statement that “[mixed martial arts and/or Brazilian jujitsu] is THE MOST EFFECTIVE TECHNIQUE”. My comment has obviously struck a nerve. As you did not answer the question, I will then assume that you do own at least one.

You are correct; the way I see it, a 9 year old blindsiding a dog is not in any way relevant to the discussion. Soon after the OP, SF came in and decided to bestow his august father’s wisdom on the rest of us. The topic of the thread, then, became effective ways to defend YOURSELF against an attacking dog. You suggested that the RNC is the MOST EFFECTIVE technique and provided intentionally misleading citations to support your claim. Your citations were misleading because they did not involve people defending themselves against an attack. Rather, they centered on people blindsiding dogs that were attacking others. As an example, allow me to provide a pose a similar question and then apply your answer:

Q: What’s an effective way to defend yourself in a bar fight?
A: Wait until two guys are fighting and sneaking up on one while he is focused on the other and choking him out.

The answer supplied in this example is just as irrelevant as the ones you provided. Being attacked is not the same as blindsiding someone/something that is attacking another.

When the Dunedan said that he would take my advice based upon my professional experience, you replied that he would be ignorant to do so. You did call me out. Now that I am here, you appear to be more than a little butt hurt that I would have the audacity to point out the irrelevancy of your comments.

I used the multi-quotes because you had a lot of silly things to say that I felt needed to be addressed individually. That's the way I see it.

---------- Post added at 01:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

Much bigger, in some cases. Still, morbid obesity and intelligence aren't going to be as helpful as you seem to think. But then, thats just my professional opinion. I'm sure a quick search on Google will turn up a contrary opinion.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Strange Famous

The point is that I am not talking about google searches, which you and your friend Dundean seem to obsessed with - constantly demanding quotes and citations as if it was an academic debated. I talk about practical experience, observation, and participation in the real world.

I am 32 years old. In my life I have on many occassions observed and interacted with dogs, I have been in fights in my life, I have seen dogs fight. The practical experience of any sensible individual will tell you that a man is stronger than a dog. If a dog attacked me I could defend myself in multiple ways

1 - manhandle the dog so he is trapped on the floor and then pull his hindlegs apart.

2 -drive my arm straight into his face and tnen poke out his eyes or knock him out cold with a punch from my free hand

3 - a hard kick to the back

4 - strangulation

5 - Use of a makeshift weapon such as a bunch of keys wrapped round the fist

All a dog has the sense to do is bite. The only way it could inflict fatal injuries on me is (1) I fall asleep and it eats me (2) it bites my throat. As long as I defend my throat and face (which is quite easy to do against an animal that is weaker and less intelligent than me) it cannot mortally wound me. However, one blow to its back delivered with my 300 lbs of strength and bulk would likely snap its spine in two.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Slims

I figured I would stir the pot a little bit, enjoy these videos.






You have to click the below link to see this one. It is a real-world bite where a dog dominates a big fat guy who tries to fight the dog.
http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/242156/police_dogs.swf


http://www.livevideo.com/video/2BFB7...og-arrest.aspx

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Walt

So....would being a professional military working dog handler fall under those criteria?

I don't care if you wrap your keys around your pudgy hands and try to put an eye out, kick, bite or somehow try to flip a dog on its back and tug on its legs (BTW, thank you for that hilarious mental image). All you are doing is offering up something else for the dog to bite and then use to pull you off balance. A pissed off dog is going to put you squarely on your ample ass and work its way up to your neck and face in seconds. Even if you manage to put an eye out or break a leg, the dog will keep coming once it has committed itself.

You really should stop making reference to your weight as if it were helpful. You are morbidly obese. You have admitted that your level of aerobic/anaerobic fitness is eclipsed by 14 year old girls. Instead of sucking it up and fixing yourself, you had a pity party and whined about how you are unwilling to do so. These facts, when taken together, lead me to believe that you spend no time in the gym. I would surmise that your "considerable" strength, isn't.

Allow me to re-cap a previous statement. This is what 75 lbs. of functional muscle looks like:


This is what 300lbs of superior mass and intelligence looks like:

Attached Images

happy face.JPG (84.2 KB, 44 views)

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Pearl Trade

Oh, goddamn! This is the best thread ever! Walt, you make me laugh in a good way, like "Did he just say that? Yeah, he did just say that." Strange, you make me laugh in a bad way, like "did he just say that? No way he just said that."

Hey Strange, try kicking a dog when it's dumbass has just bit your jugular. Does it really matter how smart it is? It can fuck you up if it had an IQ of 2. Does it really matter how weak it is? It can fuck you up pretty easily when you're pissing your pants out of fear. The dog is attacking you, it's not scared of you. You will be scared of it, even if you don't think you will be.

Strange, the best advice I can give you is: you should always listen to people smarter than you.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!