wraithhibn

I know there's a few ppl here who CCW and open carry, but what do you think of this?

Valley Station church to hold gun service | courier-journal.com | The Courier-Journal

This is in the part of town closest to Fort Knox, so I expect to see it be a big hit. I have a few friends who might go. I posted this on another gun forum I visit, and there were all kinds of people there who talk about carrying in church for protection with all of the church related and abortion related violence lately. Granted I've never really felt the need to be armed for church, but I can see the point.

__________________
If you won't dress like the Victoria Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.

Plan9

Funny, I always thought guns were a separate religion unto themselves.

Religion is a life policy system based on hope. Guns are more of a power tool for reality.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

inBOIL

I don't go to church, but if I did, I wouldn't see it as any different than carrying to the store or the movies.

__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Slims

...Their church, their rules. I don't see the problem.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

ChrisJericho

I definitely have no problem with this, I assume this is private property and conforming to state laws. Though it is odd the guns will be 'unloaded.'

On an aside though, I find bringing weapons to a religious location to be somewhat paradoxical. After all, isn't the purpose of the religious site to supplicate and communicate with certain gods? If so, these gods should protect their followers from harm. Or, if danger were to arise, it would be the will of the gods and the followers should not intervene.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

squeeeb

i thought guns in a church was against geneva conventions. i did it anyway, but it was just a 9mm, concelaed in my backpack, and i was an occupier, and i'm sure the locals were packing as well.

__________________
onward to mayhem!

Plan9

If this was true and I was religious... I wouldn't need to wear pants.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

squeeeb

i see the logic in that.

__________________
onward to mayhem!

Daniel_

The problem is it's NOT "their" rules It's "Jesus' rules".

Carrying a gun is the ultimate symbol that you will not turn the other cheek, that you will not be humble in the face of adversity, threats, and violence.

For a pastor of any denomination to encourage (or even tacitly allow) the congregation to come into the house of God armed with a lethal weapon is totally contrary to specific guidance given in the gospels by Jesus himself - not interpretation, not commentary by the authors of the gospels, but the actual recorded words of the man the pastor claims is his saviour and the son of God.

I would go so fr as to say you cannot be a Christian (as I was taught it is defined) if you go armed, or if you advocate the carrying and use of deadly weapons.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

The_Dunedan

Where?

"But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword."

Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke 22:36. Other translations are much more explicit; "he that hath no sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one."

Here we see Jesus instructing His followers to go armed. Not to carry dual-use tools such as axes or knives, but single-purpose weapons. Moreover, His instruction to sell the CLOAK to pay for the sword is indicative of the importance He places upon this: in the Middle Eastern world at the time a person's cloak was among their most important possessions; -so- important, in fact, that Old Testament law required that if a cloak was taken as collateral on a loan, the cloak had to be returned to the owner before nightfall of the same day (Exodus 22:26) so that the owner would not have to face the freezing desert night without a covering. And -this- is what Jesus says to sell, if needed, to buy a sword.

Baraka_Guru

Woah, wait. It's misleading to take stories out of context to justify certain ends. At this point in the story, Jesus is warning specific followers about tough times ahead. He's suggesting they be prepared for an enemy that will make things tough for them. He's not suggesting all his followers to sell their cloaks to be sure they have their swords to bring to church.

You're quoting passages about Jesus speaking of his apprehension. And even so, these words perhaps should not be taken literally. It has been said this was Jesus' way to suggest that this was a time of extreme danger. As we know, Jesus didn't intend to start a rebellion or fight to the death to resist arrest. He even told Peter to put away his sword when he cut the High Priest's ear.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

I think it's quite ridiculous that a church is encouraging it's 'flock' to wear paperweights in open carry holsters. just ridiculous.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Strange Famous

You know, Ive been in bother for making moralistic statements in the gun forum previously... but carrying weapons into church is something that should not be permitted and should not even enter the mind of a person. Whether you have faith or not, to those that do this is a house of God... it really troubles me that to some people that doesnt mean anything. I wont make a further contribution to this thread I think.

The right to bare arms, whether you support it or do not, surely is a secular matter... I yearn for an age when no one would consider it necessary to walk into the presence of God with a metal tucked under their belt. I wont make comments about any individual, but its a sad world when any people feel they need to take a gun to church.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

ie Christians, such as those attending this particular Church

And times aren't tough now? They haven't been tough in the intervening 2000-odd years? There are no enemies out there now? I beg to differ.

Not -all-, no, but I never said anything about -all- of -anything-, so drop the strawman. I posted in direct rebuttal to Danial's statement that Jesus condemned going armed (which he clearly did not) and that one could not be a Christian while being armed (which one clearly can, since Jesus Himself instructed his followers to arm themselves).

Why not? They seemed a literal instruction to the Disciples, who responded by declaring that they already possessed some swords.

Because it was His place to be arrested and crucified in order to effect Salvation.

Not the High Priest's ear, that of one of the High Priest's servants. His instruction to Peter to put away his sword was because;
1: Peter was interfering with the plan for Salvation, and
2: The servant was innocent, not being in a position of power to advance or impede Jesus's arrest, and therefore not a legitimate target. If Peter had taken a chop at one of the Sanhedrin, or the Temple Guard, or one of the Roman soldiers accompanying them, the result might have been different.

Slims

Regardless, if that congregation feels it is appropriate to carry in church, who are you to tell them otherwise?

I thought we were free to worship (or not) as we feel fit, and if it suits them to do so while standing on their heads juggling waterballoons, so what?

And DKsuddeth: I feel the church's decision is one of personal responsiblity, and carrying a pistol is far less irrational than relying on superstition for personal well being.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

So long as it's following the law, it's no business of mine. Some people would probably think it in bad taste—I might raise an eyebrow—but that's not a legality issue but a societal issue.

QuasiMondo

God and guns. Guns and God. What better life is there?

I'm all for it. Besides, it's not like they're going to have a shootout in the church.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Zeraph

I think carrying concealed to churches is great. I read a story once a long way back about a retired cop that decided not to carry when he went to church...there ended up being an incident where he wished he had carried that day. Nothing massacre-ish, but one of the perishoners(sp?) got shot.

However I'd be against open carry in churches...people go to church for peace of mind, someone openly carrying would not be conducive. It's like talking loudly in a library.

Baraka_Guru

My point, Dunedan, to address your charge of a strawman (which was not the intent), is that the passages you quoted refer to a specific situation that Jesus and those close to him were facing. These verses have very little to do with whether Christians should carry weapons to a house of worship. You were quoting these out of context. If this wasn't your intent, you should have offered an explanation. Could you explain how Jesus advocates going to church services armed? If you don't believe he does so, then simply say it.

Now, the world was never a perfectly safe place. I admit that. But are you suggesting we should all be worried about the Unseen Enemy?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

biznatch

Fuck it, if the Church of Scientology can sucker people into taking risks, spending their money, and making them act irrational and possibly dangerous, I don't have a problem with a church that lets insecure men carry unloaded penis extenders while praising the lord.
This is not about Jesus' law. In this world, there's really no such thing except in the Vatican. Even there, it's men's interpretation of an alleged set of "God's laws".
There's only the law of man, the legal system made by society. Granted, it might be inspired by the Bible sometimes, or even quote recurring characters in it (God), but it's still up to people to decide what they allow other people to bring in their buildings, since they built the buildings.

I think it is a bit paradoxical to bring a weapon to a place of peace and worship, but I've seen weirder things, and I certainly think other places of worship have had far worse rules.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

Willravel

You don't have to sugar-coat it. Tell us how you really feel.

dksuddeth

do people still try to use this bullshit argument?????

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

biznatch

Look, another comparison: I'd rather have a religion that allows empty guns in church then one that encourages people to take up arms against other religions. This is no longer crusading time (for most people, at least I hope not), and whatever they want to allow is cool.
dksuddeth:
I don't see anything bullshit about my argument. I used well known facts about the dangers of an ill-reputed religion, and compared them to the potential dangers of the church in the OP. I don't see a major difference. Maybe the comparison was some kind of exaggeration or far-fetched, but I don't feel that way, so please tell me what you feel is wrong with my post.
That way I can understand your perspective better.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

genuinegirly

Why not chew gum in church?

Oh, I think I misread the title.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Willravel

GGBot may have stumbled upon something here!

Why don't you chew gum in church? Why don't you wear a hat in church (other than religious head wear)? It's generally considered to be disrespectful behavior. Most people in churches believe with certainty that they're in the house of the creator of the universe, the savior that sacrificed himself to save you. Bearing that in mind, you want to show that creator and savior the maximum respect possible. You're there to humbly worship. Why would you want to bring a weapon into the house of god? Don't you respect your god enough to leave your killing device out in the car?

dksuddeth

I was actually referring to this "insecure men carry unloaded penis extenders" as if the intimation is that men with small dicks carry guns to make them feel more manly. THAT is the bullshit argument I was talking about.

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

wouldn't that same 'savior' want you to do whatever is necessary to protect the life you have, that he gave his own life for?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

You'd have to ask him.

Strange Famous

I wont make comments on individuals.

But if a society creates the conditions that a sane and rational person desires to carry a weapon when they step into the presence of God, society has failed utterly, is corrupt.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

biznatch

OK, I guess maybe I see how I could have offended some gun owners, seeing as this is the weaponry section. However, I think I do have a point about the types who feel it's necessary to carry a weapon to church. Their idea of when it's appropriate and necessary to carry a gun is ass-backwards. I'm certainly not calling all gun owners irresponsible men with issues.. I support gun ownership where owning one is not too dangerous, and has a legitimate reason to be owned. If you live alone, are a safe citizen, and don't live in the middle of a big city, then I don't see why not you can't own a weapon, as long as you're responsible about it.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

ring

thanks guys,
now that Billy Idol song,
'White Wedding'

is stuck in my head.

sorry for the thread heist.

telekinetic

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

More directly on topic reply: There are many (many!) examples of pastors/preachers on the keltec forums discussing which guns are best to wear for pocket carry in their suit coats and slacks while they are preaching.

__________________
twisted no more

The_Dunedan

Gee, ya think? You made absolutely no effort to distinguish between the "penis extenders" and "non-penis extenders" in your snide little comment, and we (gunowners) have been harassed with that inane, insane, bullshit canard for long efuckingnough. If guns actually -were- phallic substitutes, why would subcompact pistols be so popular? "Hey, by dick's too small, so I'll buy a tiny lightweight .38 to make it feel bigger!" Right, I wanna buy a gun 1/2 the length of my prick to make myself feel well-endowed? I think not. Besides which, what do you figure's up with female gunowners (30% of total nationwide)? Are they buying "clit extenders," or are you falling for that outdated bullshit about "penis envy?"

Nope. Wrong. Sorry, you don't.

Why? Has nobody ever been murdered or attacked in a church before? Dr. Tiller would disagree.

Care to elaborate upon "too dangerous" and "legitimate reason?" Oh, that's right; "not scary to me personally."

Because nobody's -ever- had to defend their families, oh no...

Define please...oh, right, "not scary to me personally."

Where the majority of violent crimes occur, and where a defensive firearm is most likely to be needed...


Let me see if I've got this straight: you're fine with gun-ownership so long as the owner
A: Doesn't scare you for some reason,
B: Has what you consider to be a "legitimate" reason (which does not seem to include self-defense since)
C: Lives in the middle of nowhere, and not in an area where they're more likely to need to use the weapon defensively.

Plan9

Hah, I've got an Enfield from WWI with 25" tube. What does that say about my penis?

Smooth spot'd!

...

I think true blue religious types may carry guns because they're educated enough to understand that not everybody is as religious as them.

Good show, Dunedan.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

biznatch

Uh, well, no. That's your interpretation of my words, and quite a step away from what I said.
Sorry, but I do believe many people don't need guns. I do believe, people often own big houses, big muscle cars, unnecessarily huge pickups and humvees to show something. It might not be what I pointed to, like penis envy or feelings of inadequacy, but what genuine use does a businessman have of a pickup that can hold hundreds, or thousands of pounds of heavy equipment, when he's never taken it to the country.

I know many people do need things.
I never said anything about "someone who would/wouldn't scare me." That's casting me as a paranoid person. If I do describe a certain section of people as guys that own and carry to feel more like a man, it's because they exist. Just like some women are sluts, even though it's wrong for someone to say, and most aren't.
Maybe I did go strong in my first post, and without thinking, made no distinction between those that used it responsibly and those that didn't. The truth is I don't think most gun owners are dudes who want an extra Extenze in the form of a .45
I'm sorry if I offended you.

Another opinion that, yes, I do have, is I don't think guns necessarily belong in big cities, unless you have a business to protect or something else that justifies.
But I didn't say I only wanted guns in the middle of nowhere. But if a city has a low enough crime rate and the Police seem to be doing their job well enough, then I think it's more individual risks taken by gun owners (accidents etc) then potential benefit. But that's just my opinion.
I'm sorry if my explanation takes this thread off track a little bit. The truth is I didn't realize most gun owners here would take it personally, I hadn't thought to make the distinction, in my mind it was a bit self-evident.
Again, apologies.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

dksuddeth

nice scripture, however, that doesn't refer anywhere close to having another TAKE YOUR LIFE. just a minor assault. I'm confident Jesus was talking about someone having no reason to get upset over being 'dissed'.

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------

you don't read alot of news then, do you? stories that talk about church shootings, or mall shootings, or the murder rate in big cities like chicago where, incidentally, handgun ownership is practically forbidden to non law enforcement personnel and city aldermen/women?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

shakran

Meh. Christianity is as violent as any other group of people. From the Crusades to the Inquisition to W's "God told me to do it" war with Iraq, Jesus's religion has been used as an excuse to kill people since not long after people killed him.

Jesus also told us not to judge people, and to love our neighbor, yet it is the Christians who are so eagerly persecuting gays. If you're saying that guns in church means the church and its congregation is hypocritical, you might be right. . .But it's not like Christians haven't been hypocritical long before the gun-in-church issue came up.

For my part, I think it's pretty silly that we supposedly have a right to bear arms, yet can't actually take the gun anywhere practical. Stores, churches, government buildings, all ban guns. What's the point of having one for personal protection if you have to rely on violence only being done to you in the city park? If a criminal goes after you inside or on a sidewalk (where you won't be carrying your gun because you'll have nowhere to store it when you get to whatever building you're going to that doesn't allow guns), then you're just as screwed as if you didn't go to all the time and trouble to legally acquire a gun in the first place.

Additionally, you seem to be saying it's ok for people to carry guns as long as they don't carry them into church, because the church teaches them to turn the other cheek. In effect you're saying we only have to follow church teachings while we are actually in the church, which means it's totally fine for me to cheat on my wife as long as I do it at a seedy motel and not in the rectory.

And finally, I really don't think "turn the other cheek" is a suicide pact. I have trouble believing that Jesus would want us to just let a crazed gunman mow us down.

Willravel

If I punched you in the face, you'd punch me back. I know you would. The same thing works for "if you shoot at me, I'll shoot at you right back." It's self-defense either way.

If you ever get the chance, you should check out by Tolstoy. It's an incredible read and it covers this a lot better than I can.

biznatch

I do read a lot of news actually. Maybe not the usual alarmist reactionary "be scared" news, so it has less about individual shootings/murders than world events, but I like to think I keep up sufficiently to have an opinion. Mine is that guns don't belong in big cities.
Now, I can be wrong about this, and there's no real way for me to know whether (increased) licensed gun ownership would increase or decrease gun-related deaths, but I think it wouldn't help.
Chicago is not violent because handguns are too few, I think it has more to do with history, corruption, and poor funding for an effective police force.


As for guns in churches, well, I'd say that should be the church's choice. Their interpretation of a divine entity's rules about weapons are none of my concern, and I can choose not to go there.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

dksuddeth

no, you don't know that I would. I might ask you what the hell you did it for, and if there was no good cause, you'd best be buying me quite a few damned beers. now, if you continued to throw punches, then that's another issue.

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

With the kind of cops they have in chicago, if they funded more, y'all would be in serious trouble. That and it's been ruled many times that the police have no obligation or liablity to provide any protection to any one individual.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."