forseti-6

I've recently moved to Kentucky and pending my change of residency, I want to take advantage of their liberal gun laws here.

I've always wanted a rifle, but previously living in NYC made that nearly impossible.

Now that I have the opportunity, I can't decide what rifle I want!

I'm a big fan of the M1 Carbines, SKS and Dragunovs. I think I would actually prefer a Dragunov, but I find those extremely difficult to find - especially Soviet made ones. Does any one have experiences with Romanian or Chinese made ones vs Soviet ones? I have only shot Soviet ones. Likewise the same goes with the SKS, only shot soviet ones, so I'm wondering if other makes of them are worthwhile.

M1s seem to be pretty easy to find, but I'm not a *huge* fan of the .30 cal. The SKS's 7.62 x 39 is *ok* but I would prefer the 54 with the Dragunov.

I guess my order of priority is value, price and stopping power.

Thoughts?

Oh yes, I'll be using this for recreational shooting, and perhaps home defense?

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SSJTWIZTA

I love the 7.62x39mm round, but thats just me.

if you want something for rec shooting, you probably want something you can shoot for lengthy periods of time. If you need it for possible home defense, you might want to look for something thats a bit compact.

shooting 30-06 rounds all day seems like it could get to be a pain, but i dont know how well the m1 disperses recoil.

Im thinking an SKS is a good choice here, but if your going to go with that, why not just get an AK?

you know, i just realized Cromp or Moot would much better explain this, seeing how they experts on all that maims.

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MSD

Everyone needs a .22. With rising ammo costs, you'll still be able to shoot for a few cents per round, and you can even shoot at home in a reasonably sized back yard. 5.45x39 is still relatively cheap, so if you get an AK chambered for it, you get decent Bulgarian and Soviet surplus.

A shotgun is still the standard for home defense, but there are plenty of threads about that.

The_Dunedan

Good picks all. The ammo situation might influence you towards the Drags or SKS, since it's still somewhat easier to secure 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R in quantity, although the 7.62x39 is drying up fast.

Soviet SVDs are a collector's item, as import was stopped in 1989. They're worth about 3k, with the NDM-86 (Chinese Dragunov) being in about the same ballpark. Great guns and very accurate with the proper .311 ammo, but hard to find.

The Chinese NDM-86 is a direct SVD copy. The Romanian "Dragunov," known variously as the PSL and SSG-97, uses a long-stroke operating system and is essentially an oversized AK action, while the SVD uses a short-stroke system. The PSL/SSG is still quite a capable weapon, but is much easier and cheaper to find than the SVD, since they're still being imported. $800-1,000 should set you up with a gun, some mags, scope, and the usual accessories. Headshots to 600-800 meters are doable with the right ammo; my stepdad's likes the 200-grain Czech silvertip.

A word on SVDs and ammo: if you decide to invest in an SVD, expect ammo trouble. The SVD will not shoot accurately with regular 7.62x54R ammunition, which has a nominal bullet diameter of .308. The SVD was designed to use special-purpose ammunition with a nominal diameter of .311. Proper Russian sniper ammo is rare and expensive, especially the 7N1 (enhanced lethality) and 14N1 (Match-grade) loadings. For this reason, finding accurate chow for the PSL/SSG will be a much easier proposition.

An SKS is an SKS is an SKS. Hardy, reliable, utterly soldier-proof, easy to maintain, and capable to 400 meters in the right hands. Russian SKSs are collectors items, likewise pre-ban Chinese units. But pretty much any SKS will do the trick just fine. My Yugoslav chugs right along and gets my hits at 300 yards, so I'm happy. For longer-range work I'd be going for my FAL in any case, and the SKS makes a great brush gun. Loads of folks around here use 'em for deer hunting, and it's turning into the 21st-Century's .30-30.


Now, for your requirements.

Value: By far the highest value will be a Russian SVD, followed by the Chinese NDM-86, the PSL/SSG, certain models of the M1 Carbine (Rock-Ola most especially) with the SKS at the bottom of the pile. The M1 Carbine is likely to hold its' collector value best, especially if you splurge on a WWII veteran.

Price: The SKS is the cheapest of the bunch, and ammo is still relatively easy to buy in bulk. An M1 Carbine can be had for $500.00 if you're lucky and aren't after collector value, but bulk ammo can be dicey to find. The PSL/SSG is easy to find ammo for, but getting more expensive. The SVD will be -very- hard to find -any- appropriate ammo for, let alone in stashable quantities, and will be -VERY- expensive in the unlikely event that you find someone willing to part with theirs.

Stopping Power: Any of the above will stop a gunfight. The 7.62x54R is nearly identical to the .30-06 ballistically, with the .30 Carbine being somewhat more powerful than a .357 Magnum fired from the same length barrel. 7.62x39 falls in between. 7.62x54R will be more useful in a hunting scenario, since it gives the greatest accurate/effective ranges and impact energy, while the M1 Carbine is the best-suited of the three for home defense, especially in an urban area or building with unhardened or unreinforced walls. The 7.62x39 falls roughly between the two extremes; useful for hunting (though I wouldn't try for an Elk with one) while being -less- likely to kill a friendly or bystander in a defensive scenario. Bear in mind, we're still talking a centrefire rifle here, so overpenetration IS GOING to happen. Unless you live in the country, of the three weapons you mention, the M1 Carbine is by far the best suited to home-defense.


Other Suggestions: Try out a bunch of different rifles. I love my FAL and hate the G3/HK-91/CETME platform, which several good friends adore. My Mom loves her bullpups which most folks hate. Find a budget, try lots of different rifles priced within that budget, and get the one you resonate with best. Shoot before buying, if possible.

In the home-defense realm, seriously consider a shotgun or handgun. Rifles are great, but that old myth about sheetrock breaking up .223 bullets is just that, a myth. Even frangible varmint loads will still blow through several sheetrock walls with little difficulty unless they hit a stud. If you live in an urban area, or just in a building with thin walls and close neighbors, a weapon which offers -less- overpenetration is something to seriously consider.

Finally, get a .22. Get four or five. You can never have too many .22's, especially with the cost of ammo being what it is.

forseti-6

Dunedan,

Thanks for the in depth response! It really clears up the picture for me. I guess the SVD is sort of out of the question for me. I had one (confiscated from insurgent) in Iraq, and I fell absolutely in love with it. Love the trigger and reminded me of an M24. I guess it's more a pipe dream owning one than anything else, huh?

I've got lots to thing about before I make my final decision. In terms of the hangun, though, I've already decided on a 1911. I'm a big fan of weapons used in past wars....

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debaser

Honestly, buy an AR.

Using 72 gr. ammo out of a 1/7 twist it has remarkable stopping power. You can still shoot relatively cheap 62 gr. for recreational use, and the design has been battle proven for the past 40+ years.

Inexpensive, reliable, and accurate rifle. What else do you need to know?

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Plan9

"Home defense" rifle, eh? That would be a shotgun. Using a .30-06 or .308 or 7.62x54 for "[suburban] home defense" is like using a spear to hunt guppies in a shoebox.

SKS? Your best bet. Ammo is cheap and the guns are easy to find, customize with stocks, mags, optics, and they're pretty fun to shoot. Make sure you find a stock that fits right and it's totally worth it to put detachable magazines on it if you're like me and find strippers to be too unreliable.

M1 Carbine? Nice gun but hard to find ammo. Too WW2 nerdy to be useful today in a world of 5.56mm pieces that can do a better job. If you're considering this piece, why not just get a used Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 instead?

SVD? Show piece made famous in video games and as a status symbol for the stinkies that make up the Iraq / Afghan army. Not worth the price, IMO. The effort and expense of acquiring the rifle, mags, ammo, and optics will put you out way more than it is ever worth for either fun-time plinking or tactical usefulness.

...

Remember the home defense priority mantra:

1: Accountability (where are the wife / kids?)
3: Light (flashlight on weapon and on your belt)
2: Communication (cell phone or land line to call the boys in blue and to CYA)
4: Weapons (the thing everybody wants to talk about for home defense)

A pistol-caliber carbine (dun-dun-DUN) might be a better choice for home defense. A Marlin Camp Carbine in 45 (hard to find) or a lever action .357 Mag or .44 Mag from either Winchester or Marlin makes a much more useful general purpose short range weapon than most of the above selections and can be had for pretty cheap. Bonus is having a revolver in the same caliber on your belt in a crappy situation. Double-super-extra-bonus is having a bunch of guns that shoot the same caliber for when you go to the range.

(My next project is to make a nice .44 Mag "scout gun" out of a Winchester 94 Ranger with a scout scope, tritium iron sights, and a synthetic stock.)

Go with a shotgun, a SKS, or get a lever gun in a magnum pistol caliber.

Hey, he said "cheap," no?

Hey, we all have to be good at something. My writing sucks and whew... you should hear my singing.

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debaser

Meh, it's all in your perspective I guess, but you can get an AR for about five bones if you look around, plus he's talking about M-1's and SVD's...

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LoganSnake

How about one of these?



Nobody fucks with .50

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debaser

Good for home defense, if the home you are defending happens to be half a mile away...

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forseti-6

What's that a Barrett? You know, I would actually consider it, if it wasn't 30 lbs!

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LoganSnake

Yeah, that sexy thing is a Barrett. I'd sooo get one if it wasn't nearly 10 grand.

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Tully Mars

I think its good for moving houses off their foundations too.

Want something to defend your home from the upcoming apocalypse? Get a reliable 12 ga. pump- load up on ammo, MRE's and potable water. Then lock yourself behind a concrete wall and razor wire.

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forseti-6

Might as well HESCO up my perimeter, sandbag my windows, get M240Bs up in concrete towers and have claymores set up in choke points, haha.

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Tully Mars

That's good too but getting the claymores would be an issues, least for me. I could probably find the M240B, though I might need to modify back to FA.

Personally, in all honestly, I'd like to find a RPG. There a lot of nasty folks sailing these days, or approaching sailboats. So far I've found just having a 12ga. pump in one hand and short length of PVC pipe painted olive green in the other makes you look less like an easy target. They don't want to mess with you if you look like your going to put up a fight.

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forseti-6

Wouldn't having an M2 mounted on your boat be a much more intimidating silhouette? I'm sure just a few bursts can take down most small ships. At least it was that was in Rambo 4, haha.

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Tully Mars

In all seriousness of course that would deter unwanted companions. It would also deter your ability to enter most harbors. At some point you have to get past the harbor master and customs. It's a fine dance. I think for the most part they assume you're "carrying." My main teacher on this subject carries a 12ga. and has a hidy hole just forward of the engine compartment. He also carries a torn, ratty looking mainsail. The first sign anything small beeps on his radar he hoists it. As he told me- "You can drive your Bentley in Beverly Hills, taking it through South Central, probably not smart."

Bottom line, look like you have nothing and look like you're willing to put up one hell of a fight to keep that nothing.

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Fire

sks is good all around and still reasonably cheap- yugos are different than the others...

M-1 carbines are great, but the latter era commercial ones can suck ass, and some they modded the design on to save money, and those can blow up in your face (happened to a buddy, can you say optic nerve damage) so you wanna go usgi on those, and that can get pricey- as a plus you can get the ruger blackhawk in .30 to share ammo.... check the surplus rifle forums to get a good idea of which ones to avoid to save trouble.....

Dragunovs vary a bunch - the good ones are spendy, the not so good ones are spendy and suck, and it can take a lot of research to tell them apart.. had several friends that tried one, none of those friends (3 total) like what they got......

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The_Dunedan

We had a customer who bought a Saiga 12-bore and TWENTY 10-round mags for just such a purpose; pirate-busting.

1st Mag: OOO buckshot and flechette, to get the heads down.

2nd Mag: Slugs at the waterling.

3rd Mag: 000 Buckshot and flechette, to -keep- the heads down.

4th Mag: Slugs at the waterline.

Repeat as needed.

We tried to talk him into an M-107CQB (chopped Barrett M-107A2), but he figured the 12-bore would be a lot easier to explain to potentially bad-tempered Bahamanian or Malaysian policemen.

Tully Mars

Well, many of these ports claim to have secure storage for your "personal protection devices" that do not meet the local laws. From what I've heard hide it, hide it, hide it. The odds of getting it back is not good. Esp. if it something like that Saiga 12-bore. Whats that go for $1500-$2000? I don't currently have a boat, I hitch rides. But I'm looking and will buy a boat when I find the right one. When I do I'll get a reliable but cheap 12ga. with a Syn. stock and an SS barrel.

I like your rinse, lather, repeat tactic.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

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The_Dunedan

Well, with the extra mags it came to about $1600, I think.

Tully Mars

That's sounds like a good price with 20 mags. You could start, or finish, your own little war with that kind of firepower.

But I think he's going to have just as hard a time explaining that as he would the chopped Barrett. Most of these countries have serious anti-gun laws. My theory is have one I'm willing to hand over rather then visit their jail. I've also heard tale of paying a "fine" to the customs guy to keep it. If they think the weapon's worth several grand I'm guessing the "fine's" going to be higher then if it looks like it worth a couple hundred. If they keep it I have a home engineered "flare gun." It doubles as a 12ga hand gun, but will fire a reg. flare too. It doesn't look out of place in with my other emergency gear. I made it out of 316 SS and an old set of hand grips, Uncle Mikes? You might only get one shot, but the scatter patterns pretty wide. It would certainly ruin someones whole day.

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JStrider

what about a Mosin Nagant a buddy of mine just bought one and I'm tossing around the idea...

you can find ones in pretty good shape for $100ish bucks. 7.62x54R
check out http://7.62x54r.net/ for info...
its the gun the russian sniper was using in the "Enemy at the Gates" movie

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dlish

any gun that'll kill a mole is a good one

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JStrider

some of the Mosin Carbine version come with a Bayonet attached... just keep jabbing it into the ground till you skewer the little monster!

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Plan9

Funny... reminds me of the '107 I used to tote in A-stan. They're fun to look at it... and that's about it. Carry? Shoot? Sign for? Not-so-much.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Dunedan

If you're going for a .50, get a Cobb/Bushmaster BA-50. It's an honest-to-God sub-MOA rifle. Recoils like a .223 or .243. My Mom's example in the "Gun Porn" thread will routinely shoot sub-MOA even inside 300 yards, when the .50 calibre bullet isn't even supposed to be stabilized yet. The recoil's so light it lets you watch the bullet fly into the target on a moist day, and then cycle the bolt with your left hand before a Barrett shooter can even get back on target. The Barrett is a great rifle for what it's designed for, but the Cobb adds genuine sniper-level accuracy into the equation. The Barrett isn't designed for shooting at people, it's designed for shooting at material; truck engines, radar dishes, missile warheads, that kind of thing. It's nothing I'd want anyone shooting at -me- with, but it's not -really- designed for that.

That's not to say the Barrett can't do admirable anti-personell service in the right hands. The Cobb/Bushmaster simply makes "The right hands" a much larger catagory by virtue of its' accuracy, low recoil, and practical rate of fire.

One disadvantage to the C/B, however...that low recoil comes from a truly outsized muzzle brake, and the noise is HORRENDOUS. The whole bloody valley rings when that thing goes off, and you do -not- want to be standing beside the gunner. The only safe place is dead behind.

I can live with that, however, since the C/B is also about $4,000 cheaper.

Plan9

OP: Bought a rifle yet?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

forseti-6

I haven't yet. I've decided to get an SKS, however, I'm searching for one I like. Another slight roadblock is, I just moved here to Kentucky. I have to change my residency from NY to KY before I'm legally allowed to buy.

I think the SKS is the right rifle for the price.

One of the snipers in my battalion carried a M-107 with him for the first few months in Iraq..... then he blew out his back. Now keep in mind, he was a beast of a man. He reminds me of what a prototypical NFL tight end should be built like. So, yeah not an everyday weapon.

Someone like me (5'7", 170 medium build?) That would destroy me after a few minutes, haha.

It makes me laugh. I just saw Rambo 4. The sniper in that movie, totes that gun around the whole movie.

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LoganSnake

I've found a new rifle I love.

NTW-20/14.5



Cartridge: 14.5x114 mm Russian.
Operation: manual bolt action.
Feed: 3-round box-type, detachable magazine.
Weight, empty, kg: 29.
Overall length, mm: 2,015
Rifling: 1 full turn in 406 mm.
Length of barrel, mm: 1,220
Muzzle velocity, m/sec: 1,080
Muzzle energy, J: 30,675
Effective range, m: > 2,300

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debaser

Keeerist! Just get yourself a KPV...

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Tully Mars

Kind of hard to carry isn't it?

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

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The_Dunedan

That's what the wheels are for.

Tully Mars

Once you need to add wheels I'm not sure it's a rifle anymore.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

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Plan9

Aah, closure! Good choice.

I think to get the most out of it you'll want to immediately modify the piece to accept detachable magazines and stock up on those of 20 round capacity. In my humble opinion, the 20 rounders are the best combination of firepower and size. Stripper clips and the appropriate guides are a must for any 7.62x39mm gun.

You'll want another stock, too. Even more so than the detachable mags if you're taller than 5'7". The furniture on the SKS is notorious for being more like a Boyscout's toy and less like a real "red-blooded American" rifle stock. The pistol grip is too small and too straight, it doesn't feature enough length of pull (~12" instead of the standard ~14"), and the foregrip slit where you're supposed to put your supporting arm's fingers is like trying to fire a rifle holding onto a greasy Ballpark hotdog.

They make sturdy steel bipods that attach directly to the bayonet mount. I highly recommend one if you can find it.

Feel free to post pictures of your final product. It'll encourage others who have the same "What rifle?" conundrum later.

Pfft, you obviously don't know the nerdy accessorize-the-shit-outta-everything phenomena occurring in the US military right now: 1913 Rail / MOLLE Pocket Fever.

LTs are usually the hardest hit victims of this disease, followed by SPCs who have clerical jobs.

I'll take that and raise you an AET IIR20 20mm. (Okay, so 20mm is technically a cannon, but this piece still sits on a bipod.)

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

forseti-6

HAHAH so true! I always frowned upon all those guys that spend hundreds of dollars on Blackhawk gear. Who really needs a $100 rack anyways?

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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

MSD

If you don't spend hundreds of dollars on accessories and put a laser sight, a flashlight, and 3 more rails on every rail, how the hell are other people supposed to know that you have that quality known only as THE TACTICAL ?

Tully Mars

I wouldn't know anything about that disease in the military. You likely would have referred to me as a REMF, though I'm not sure if that term applies to ship board personnel. I was on the fire dept. but in between fires I cleaned a lot toilets.

I do know hunters with this aliment. Guys who need scopes to shoot at game they'll never be able to find even if they do drop it. Or have to have the latest Weatherby 300 mag. with a SS barrel and syn. stock... yadda, yadda, yadda. You drop a deer with a 300 w/220g and there usually not enough meat left to make it worth the effort to field dress it.

Best hunting rifle I ever owned was a Remmington 700 BDL 30-06 with a fixed 3X9 Leopold scope. No messing around with zoom, just sight it in once a week and you're good to go. IMO, a 30-06 is an all around good deer and elk rifle.

I had my FLL for a few years, never made any money at it and got tried of the paper work so I let it go. But it gave me the chance to buy a ton of weapons cheap. I tried a lot of different rifles, always went back to that 700 BDL.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Perfekt

With all these high priced guns listed i'm going to go off the deep end whth what i think is 1 of the best shooting guns made, a wal-mart 22 cal Crickett cost about $100.Ive owned 1 of these for several years and shot 1000's if not 10's of 1000's of shot through it.

Tully Mars

.22's are great of you're looking to plink. I had a Carter Arms AR-7 that I used to love. Whole thing breaks down and barrel, clip et el all insert in the stock, it floats, rarely jams and I, like you, probably shot a few 1000 rounds through it.

I saw 007 Bond use this rifle in a film once. Can't remember the scene that well but I remember thinking- "Yeah, not making that shot with a .22, not even you Mr. Bond."

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club