Plan9

The most thorough examination I've found:

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm

(may be a repost but I couldn't find it)

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

SSJTWIZTA

I once knew 2 brothers.

Kris: owned an ar-15
Brad: an ak-47.

guess which one i prefered to shoot.

and plus, most disagree. but i like the 7.62 round better.

oh, p.s.

he talks about a badassed solid black look. brads ak was solid black, and looked mean as hell.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

blktour

wasnt the ar-15 the non burst version of the big bat? ( m-16.)

i thought it was ok when i got it, but once you train with it for a while in your unit, it tends to jam on you alot.

when the m-4 came out. I was in love.

small guy = m-4 in love. hehe. it fit me perfectly. and it didnt jam ever. even in the sand box.

i still think they did jam from the old age. i mean. when put together. you could shake my weapon and see it wiggle.

Martian

I do not own a gun, have not fired a gun in years and have never handled any weapon that could be considered an assault rifle in any sense of the term. That said, my completely uninformed and ignorant opinion has always been basically what's stated; the M-16 and it's family always struck me as not the kind of weapon that I'd be real confident about taking into combat (it's family includes the C7, which is the Canadian variant; thus when I still had starry-eyed dreams of enlisting I felt obligated to look into the matter). I've often wondered why the US army continues to use a weapon that seems so reviled by the very people who carry it. Surely there's plenty of serviceable alternatives out there? Or is it just that they've got to have the biggest and baddest and are willing to field an inferior design until the OICW/SCAR/whatever other fun new toy arrives?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Plan9

Diemaco C7 = Poop.

OICW = Heavy, battery-operated poop.

XM8 = Failed poop.

SCAR = SF approved, too much plastic.

H&K G36 = Delicious gun-sex.

H&K 416 / 417 = Very, very promising.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Martian

In other news, reading this thread resulted in an irresistible urge to listen to Filter.

<embed src="http://www.seeqpod.com/cache/seeqpodSlimlineEmbed.swf" wmode="transparent" width="300" height="80" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" flashvars="playlistXMLPath=http://www.seeqpod.com/api/music/getPlaylist?playlist_id=9b18157128"></embed>

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

SSJTWIZTA

Anything H&K makes kicks much ass, c'mon now.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

kinsaj

I cannot say anything about other rifles but I can say that I have an m16 with a 20" heavy barrel and have yet to have it jam (that a whack on the side could not fix) after around a thousand rounds through it. I use the cheapest (Wolf... Russian) ammo and know that I could clean the thing a lot better than I do. In auto it performs fine.

One complaint in the article was the gas tube getting so hot that it lights the surroundings... if you are firing that much auto that fast you are likely not hitting anything accurately and need a proper heavy mounted machine gun. This is a rifle designed to fire fast... but it is an assault rifle not an MG42.

Anyways... maybe I have the one good m16 out there or maybe not. But anything as prolific as that weapon will always have its supporters and haters.

Regarding new models... we can always make better and will. The existing platform remains probably because it is dug in so much... but it will change eventually.

just my .02

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boom

Plan9

Nah, I'm guessing it's $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

...

Take your 20" heavy barrel to the desert, bro. Whole different ball game.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Lucifer

Like Martian, being Canadian, I have never fired a gun; that being said, i tried an M16 someone dropped in CoD4,and I hated it!

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I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
- Job 30:29

1123, 6536, 5321

MSD

You know you're allowed to own and shoot guns up there, right? You guys get some stuff we can't and don't even have the same barrel length restrictions.

Slims

Ok, it is a fantastic weapon.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

kinsaj

The desert is exclusively where I shoot. I take trips out to the Nevadan desert for several days at a time riding and hiking in the vast BLM territories throughout the year in different seasons... Granted I never dropped the thing in the dirt/sand and tried to fire it w/o blowing in the receiver and have not lived with it day in day out w/o shelter for a month in the desert... but it has seen desert. (this aint no fancy range gun)

__________________
boom

Martian

It's not a question of being allowed. It's a question of wanting to, and wanting to badly enough to jump through the necessary hoops.

My testicles tell me guns are immensely cool. My pocketbook tells me that I have no need or use for one. My muse tells me that money is better spent on a guitar/amp/keyboard/whatever.

I'm just saying that had I joined the military as planned and ended up in a situation where I was carrying a C7 into combat, I might be a little nervous about the reliability of said weapon based on reports I've read. Crompsin saying that it's poop only confirms my suspicions, as I reckon that man's probably spent more time handling an M-16 than me and my five closest friends put together ever will.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

MSD

Oops
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Library/bolt.gif

Plan9

Say what, bro?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

MSD

How many locking lugs does that bolt have?

Plan9

Hahaha!

Good eye.

I was looking at the floating pieces, myself.

...

Artist's misconception.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

QuasiMondo

M16=poop. It's unique ability to jam is why most folks think it's poop. Accuracy isn't relevant unless you're using this rifle as a sniper weapon, otherwise when you run up on somebody, you're double tapping. I suppose lightness means something when you gotta travel long distances on foot, but what's an extra pound or two when you've already have 80-100 pounds of shit on your back to begin with?

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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Slims

QuasiMondo:

Edited: Content deleted, sorry.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

echo5delta

This is a subject near and dear to my heart as well.

I've carried the 20" bbl M-16A4 for extended deployments in Iraq, one of which saw me out and about daily in little crappy bases where dust and dirt was EVERYWHERE. Modifying my weapons maintenance accordingly, I never had a problem with it, though it's not uncommon.

Mostly due to my training, I have no problems hitting targets consistently at 500 meters with open sights. 200 and 300 is like a turkey shoot, and if you slap an ACOG on there... hell, it's just point & click. I'm sure I could do the same with an M4.

Some of the "reliability testing" for the AR is complete CRAP, though. Firing full auto (or even semi) at the cyclic rate for 300, 400, 500 rounds at a stretch without any cleaning is going to make any RIFLE look bad. If it's employed within its designed limitations (sustained rate of fire), stoppages happen a hell of a lot less frequently.

However comma...

A vast majority of stoppages for the AR weapon system can be attributed directly to the magazine. Cleaning and maintaining your mags is essential to reliable operation. Better yet, you can do like me: buy 7 HK magazines (for the SA-80 & 416) and turn the crappy, GI ones back in to the armory.

I wish I could find it online, but I did see a newspaper article about potential weapon systems the USMC is looking at for replacing the M4/M16 series. This was testing done by manufacturer reps AND DoD folks, scoring based on a number of factors: accuracy, reliability, and four different categories and types of stoppages. The XM-8 was rated highest, then the SCAR, followed by the 416. Even though the 416 'finished last' among those tested, it's scores all around pretty much smoked the M4/M16.

All in all, I'm a bit concerned about what the final verdict would be. The SCAR and XM8 don't seem like they'd be "grunt proof" to me - then again, I've never played with either one. The 416 would be a great improvement, and everyone who's intimate with the AR (like most soldiers and all Marines) would have little difficulty transitioning.

What I *do* know is that if, and as soon as HK puts those up for sale commercially in the US, I'll be the first motherfucker to fork over ~$3000, and smile while I'm doing it.

__________________
"Peace" is when nobody's shooting. A "Just Peace" is when we get what we want. - Bill Mauldin

Plan9

As you know, this applies to any magazine-fed weapon... not just the AR. My experience with the M9, 1911, Uzi, MP5, et al. has been that if the gun isn't bangin' like it should... just drop the mag and try another one.

The magazine is the weakest link of any assault rifle. It is one of the least expensive and yet the most important part of the semi-auto / auto weapon. DoD knows this... but they're cheap bastards despite those mysterious $85 toilet seats.

Weapons that feature roll-lock magazines (M14, M107, AKs) don't suffer as much but aren't immune to magazine feed failures, which account for a majority of stoppages.

Last tour... my unit finally did something right and most of us were issued a UBL worth of H&K steel mags for free. They're heavy as fuck but work every time. Standard GI mags are best used for the reserve magcan kept in the humvee for those AYBABTU situations.

...

I started this thread to comment on the direct impingement gas system and what a stupid idea it is for ANY firearm, especially a tactical weapon system.

It is both sad and funny... the fact that if we weren't in the middle of two campaigns and blowing billions of dollars... we'd probably be close to having a new rifle already.

...

I concur, the HK 416 / 417 series rifle appears to the best bet for replacement despite being beaten by the SCAR. Same familiar handling characteristics as well as shared parts and magazines with existing stock.

I'll be behind you in line to buy the semi civvie version of the 416, too.

Until then? I'm stuck with my Rock River M4 and M1A.

...

My only two real M16 gripes are the direct impingement gas system and how any use of charging handle requires losing shooting posture. Magazines are shit but that's an easy fix.

Guns like the the G36 fix both of those problems and I want to have sex with one.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

xepherys

I'm in the pro-M4, anti-M16 crowd. the 16 is just too damned bulky. I <3 my M4... <4

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echo5delta

Hmmmmm....

Comments? Thoughts?

__________________
"Peace" is when nobody's shooting. A "Just Peace" is when we get what we want. - Bill Mauldin

Plan9

SOLD! Things are REAL sexy, E5D.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

echo5delta

Eh, yeah, but my stock weapon from the armory looks "sexxxxay" when I strip it down and put all my stuff on it.

I'd just really like to get my hands on one of those for a field-strip, if not putting some in the black, before I consider buying one.

Damn, they look good, though. Wish they had a 20"bbl so I could use my own ACOG...

__________________
"Peace" is when nobody's shooting. A "Just Peace" is when we get what we want. - Bill Mauldin

Suave

Attributing successful engagements with the enemy when you're a group of professional soldiers versus what are likely not-so-professional soldiers to your equipment is a tad fallacious. I'll bet if you'd all been equipped with AKs you'd still have beaten them handily.

Having access to a $500 M-14 ripoff is a pretty sweet deal, I cannot lie.

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KirStang

Makes a pretty compelling case for the *relative* inaccuracy of a standard AK.

MSD

If the real message of that video is anything other than "The US needs to use a bigger bullet," I'm the queen of England.

The guy with the AK isn't shouldering it right (judging by the way the gun moves when fired and how much his shoulder moves) and he's slapping the trigger past the first joint of his finger instead of pulling with the fingertip. Both guns flex, and the bullet is long gone by the time barrel flex and recoil move the point of aim. The long range semi-auto test is pathetic; yes, the AK is inherently less accurate because of the bolt design and looser tolerances, but a decent shooter should have no problem hitting paper at that range with a bit of effort.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

The AK is very effective, and it is accurate *enough* for most engagements. However, it has a lot of issues. The control features suck, magazines have to be slotted in which takes time, the weapons accuracy can be an issue at distance, it doesn't easily accomodate a rail system, and most of the ammunition available for it is marginal at best.

In my opinion, the m-4 beats the AK hands down. If caliber is the biggest deficiency, then look at some of the 6.8 SPC guns floating around.

An AK is the perfect gun for an uneducated farmer who will never receive the necessary training to outperform the weapon. It will work reliably for him and is sturdy. However, it is not the best for the way our military does things these days.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

blade02

While talking about semi autos that shoot the .223, what about the Mini-14? Doesn't it have a gas/piston driven system, giving it the same advantages of the newer rifles such as the HK 416? If so, then why hasn't it gained more military type use since its been out for a few decades?

The_Dunedan

Because it tends to unreliability, is less accurate than the AR by quite a ways (and MilSpec for the M4 and M16 is 4MOA; most of the inherant accuracy advantage lies in the AR's superb sights and trigger), doesn't accept optics well because of the open receiver, gets filled with crap for the same reason, it's trigger sucks compared to the AR/M16, lacks aftermarket support, lacks suitable numbers of standard-capacity magazines, the controls suck, and will spew hot gases and such directly back into the users' face in the event of a slamfire, again due to the open receiver. I'm not an AR fan, but it's a vastly superior weapon to the Mini.

sapiens

The_Dunedan: Not that I have ever posted anything in response to your posts, but I always appreciated reading them. It's nice to see you back.

(I have nothing useful to say about the M16. I have never fired anything other than a .22 rifle at Y camp).

The_Dunedan

Thankee kindly. Been away for abit learning how to actually -sell- these things instead of just rant about them on teh intarnets. I'm drowning in paperwork!

SSJTWIZTA

you sell those things to people!?! -gasp- you bastard.

i actually used to have a mini 14, loved it. i actually enjoyed shooting it more than kris's ar-15.

i sold and replaced it though, with another 7.62. im so disappointed in myself.

oh, im thinknig about buying a Galili. anyone have some thoughts on this? do they even sell a civilian model?

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

The_Dunedan

We've got two hanging in the shop right now, although they're currently marketed as the "Golani Sporter" in order to get around Bush The Elder's asinine '89 Import Ban. Awesome rifles, but mags are tough to find at times.

SSJTWIZTA

oh thanks!

i just did some research. It turns out that im too poor to be buying one at the moment soo uhhh,

does anyone want to trade a Golani Sporter for a Soul?

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

jarhead_h

You forgot one - the M14. The one that the M16 wrongly replaced. The one that was every bit as accurate, that the SEALS can trust to fire directly after being submerged in salt water for extended periods, that never develops a "wobble" where the upper and lower receiver joins because the M14 doesn't have that design flaw, and finally makes a very good club in the event that you run out of ammo. That rifle looks to be making a comeback in a big way, and this Marine approves.

I would gladly break every AR-15/M16/CAR16/M4 with my bare hands. And before you call BS, trust me, it's not that hard to do.

SSJTWIZTA

i used to have a mini-14.

great fucking gun.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller