The_Dude

I dont usually pirate software from small companies, but i feel no guilt in pirating ms products.

win xp pro costs 200 bucks, and office xp costs what? 500? 600?

i think this is just complete bull shit, and ms comes out w/ a new series of these almost ever year now! what do they expect us to milk out 1000 bucks/yr for their software?

this is complete bull shit, i say.

anyway, in college i get cheap ms software.

this is the only good thing the devil has done.

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Cynthetiq

well... if you work hard for something should you not get paid for it? or should your services just be "free"?

Back in the day when I was coding games, there was no freeware, and shareware was just getting it's foothold. There was no internet, there was no GUI. There was a lot of work involved in making the games that I had made, I didn't like the specs of the game, and I told the management that. When the games were released the sold poorly and I was laid off.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Mondak

I am above board on almost everything that I have. I try to respect IP whenever and wherever I can, but that does not stop me from being bitter sometimes. For example, I PAID full price for Frontpage. I used it 2-3 times and then I realized it was a POS that I could do better with Notepad. I wish I had my money back on that one.

Now Music is a different story. The record companies fixed prices and screwed the consumer on purpose. It costs SO m,uch less to make a CD then a tape and yet CDs were $19- and Tapes were $10-. I bought way too many crappy CDs with like one good song and so now I take it out of their ass.

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hrdwareguy

So it's OK to pirate software from large compaines that charge 200 bucks for their product but not from the small company who charges 30 bucks. Look at how many developers the compaines have to pay for...the 30 dollar program probably only pays for a few developers while the 200 from the large corp pays for many developers. I'm not saying that none of it is profit, but the larger company does have more overhead.

What do you think would happen if no one pirated from software companies and everyone purchased software like they were supposed to. Do you think prices would go down because of increased revenue? Do you think you would get a better product because more staff could be hired?

As far as new versions of software goes, unless you need the new features, don't upgrade. I stull use office 2000 at home because I don't need the additional features in XP. Don't be a sheep and buy a product just because it's the newest version when you don't need the features it provides.

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The_Dude

look @microsoft. they're a monopoly in the business. they can charge whatever outrageous prices for their software.

windows is the dominant os, office is the dominant office suite, so they can pretty much ask for whatever they want.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Empty_One

About the only software I purchase is games. Mainly because it can be a pain in the ass to get them to play online, and it's worth the 40 bucks to not have to worry about it. On the other hand, I feel that $500 for Office or whatever is insane, and I have no problem taking a copy home from work, or downloading the CD. I never use it anyway, I have it just in case.

gamer715

that's what I do, but i buy office and windows from my university for like 5 bucks apeice...

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Uuudar

academia special prices own ;D

Podmore

I really hate the attitude that it's okay to steal as long as you do it from someone who has money. As microsoft has gotten bigger over the years, their software prices have gotten much lower. Their prices generally aren't excessive for what you get.

There are plenty of lower priced (and even free) software packages that compete head-to-head with the MS versions. Why not get one of them? Most people I know say it's because the MS ones are better and work so well with each other. Well don't you think that gives them license to charge more?

It's like saying that it's okay to steal a rolls royce, because it's so expensive, but not okay to steal a hundai. How does it make any sense at all?

Pirating is stealing. Maybe I'm sensitive to it because I'm a programmer, but I worked hard to afford the software that I want, and if I can't afford it I don't have it.

yotta

I use free software whenever possible. My computer runs linux, so I'm pretty well off there. I paid for VMware express (it was like $80) a while back, but then they stopped supporting it, or selling a consumer verison of thier prouduct (would no longer work with a current kernel) so, I just grabbed VMware workstation ($300) and used a keygen. I feel moraly justified in doing so. And I have a pirated copy of Win2k to use on it, for the rarity I need a windows only program that won't work in wine, and I don't feel I use it enough to justify paying for it. If I were forced to pay for it, or do without it, I would just do without it.

Anyway people, don't pirate microsoft office. Use OpenOffice instead. It works just as well.

Podmore: pirating is NOT stealing, stealing involves depriving someone of what you have stolen. If you steal a rolls royce, they have one less they can sell. If you pirate software, you are simply using a copy of it without paying. If you are unable to afford it, and could not pirate it, and would otherwise do without, the developers would not have gotten your money anyway.

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evercl

I don't pay for software just because I can't afford it. Do I lose any sleep over it?? No, but I can see your points. I really wish I could pay for it, but M$ isn't going to file chapter 11 because I didn't buy office. I'm not saying the end's justifies the means, but I'm not putting anyone on the street.

And M$ does screw people over, corporations. You want SQL, you get it and it's running slow. So you add another processor and BANG your in violation of the software agreement because you have to license each processor. Then with W2K, sure you can keep licensing it with MS's old licensing but in order to be legal you'll have to buy site licenses for other things, but wait just a sec if you do the *new* big corp licensing you can save money and not have to buy any other site licenses for everything. They screw people as much as we screw them. Then small businesses have already invested a ton of money in M$, and now thye have to shell out more money than they planned because they all have some kind of proprietary software that works with the newest MS version. Because no one codes for windows 98.

Necronomicom

my only softwares installed on my PC right now that are not pirated are Diablo II and Diablo II exp, both because I wanted to play on BNET without having to use somebody's else key.

is not like I want the software companies to go fuck themselves, is just that I can't afford every software I use, and I can buy the same software for like 10 times less its actuall price

SiN

justified?

no, i do not ever feel 'justified'.

granted, in the past 3 years, i've downloaded hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff...sometimes just because i could...to collect it, or whatever....

but..if i could afford it, i surely would buy it.

Microsoft, Adobe, whatever.

i feel no need to 'rip them off'.

just a matter of money, or lack of.

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rubicon

All of my shareware software is properly licensed. XP and Office XP are as well - somehow I got them for free from Microsoft. Some stuff is academic but licensed as such.

I have some software that I should license because I use it regularly - I'm working on it.

Otherwise, yes, everyone should pay for software from any sized vendor. I think people should donate to open-source if they ask for it.

Do you work for free? If not, why should programmers and the companies that hire them not be compensated? If every piece of software was properly licensed would it cost as much? Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know.

As for the music companies... They did mislead us as CD prices haven't changed much since the 80s. However, you can get inexpensive CDs from music clubs like BMG or retail like Circuit City. So there really isn't a reason to bitch.

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MiCulito

you get that warm fuzzy feeling inside when you pay for your own software too. i love it.

viveleroi0

I have always felt that I can try to come up with as many excuses as I like... they all seem to make sense until I think about them. The basic fact is, I do it because I want what I can't afford. I do it because it easy, hard to track, and there so many other people doing it. In the end I like what I got but I feel guilty. I know what it is but I still do it...

I do it much less than I did. I try to use freeware a lot more, which I have been able to do. I can't play many games anymore so I don't do that... the only thing I still do sometimes is music... small bands and stuff I dont, but the big famous names on the radio I do. No matter what excuse I use (the riaa sucks, charging that much per cd for what it costs to make the actual cd) and then jipping the artist, it's just an excuse. It may be true in many cases, but I still do it.

Some things I refuse to get for free though... I will never trust a pirated OS. People are much smarter than me and could have the chance to add, change, or remove something that could be devastating. Ditto the virus software... paid for Norton Antivirus and boy did that feel good... (not loosing the $$ but paying for something).

Now, I try to get any games off eBay or something.

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Antagony

Anything I pirate is usually because of lack of funds for purchasing (like SiN).

I used to be a hardcore pirate. Nowadays, I tend to find freeware to use on my linux partition, or sometimes I'll find a keygen or something. I generally avoid the big expensive software. I pirated XP, which is a mediocre operating system. I do have a legit copy of OfficeXP, but only because it was $7 through my skool.

I still pirate games every once-in-a-while because most PC games these days are crappy. Horrible buggy monsters that have to be patched to work. Then the game is over in 4 hours anyway. What a rip.

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Nad Adam

Everything that is running on my computers are pirated or free. I know it's wrong but I do it anyway.

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Cynthetiq

I guess you didn't know that IBM did the same thing when they were the dominant player.

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evercl

Well I'm just pointing out one instance. Cuz I think IBM can eat it too. They make crappy computers, and they're software is way overpriced. It's so bad it's not worth pirating.

Except some SCO stuff, but it's not exactly for home use.

Podmore

That is <i>such</i> a rationalization. Any time you take something that doesn't belong to you, it's stealing. The fact of the matter is that a LOT of people who steal software would find a way to pay for it if they had to. ANd you know what? If everyone who used it paid for it, it would be cheaper for all of us. Piracy drives prices up, and there's a lot of evidence to that fact.

People who create things have to make an investment to do so. It really sucks to use their creation without paying them for it. I don't see how you can justify it.

MacGnG

when i goto a computer store and there is something i want that is *resonably* priced i buy it but if i find something i can d/l i'm gonna do it!

i'm not going to sped thousands of dollars on graphics software so they arent losing money because i wasnt going to buy it

sure that isn't a good reason but it's an excuse and i dont care so whatever

MSD

Linux, anyone?

KillerYoda

I'm able to sleep at night with the old "I'm poor and I need this" justification as well as the "I paid for this before."

I wanted Windows XP Pro and was too poor to afford it.

I had paid for Norton Anti-Virus products in the past, so I was completely fine getting Norton Anti-Virus 2003 Pro.

See, everyone wins. Well, I win, and that's what is important.

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Dragonlich

It's quite simple, really: I can't afford to buy most of the software I use *right now*, therefore I pirate it. I wouldn't have bought it anyway, and get a lot of experience anyway. This means that in the future, when I do have a good job and loads of cash, I can buy the software I learned to use now.

Hell, nobody is losing any money - I wouldn't have bought it anyway, and it's all copied/pirated from people that still have the original program.

To be honest, I think Microsoft should pay *me* money to work with their POS operating systems; we consumers do the beta testing for them, it seems...

madsenj37

Ever since Apple incorpated unix underpinning in their OS I have no need to pirate. Freeware does everything I need and want, and at a great price.

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Konichiwaneko

It sounds here that money is what matters too people and why they pirate.

I'm sure all of us could afford the software listed, but we are just bitching and moaning because we can't buy our other toys if we buy software.

$600 is nothing when you realize that you are going to spend more then 100+ hours using it.

As with video games, I have a certain equation. Give yourself an hourly rate you believe you are worth, me..I gave a reasonable $12(cause I don't work 24/7). So if I buy something for $600 and I spend over 50 hours on it..then it was worth every penny. Photoshop...hmmm I've used for 7 years now...I think it's worth it.

I still pirate though, my position is as long as you don't make a profit off of it. There's a difference from taht high school kid who used to give you warez, and the one that tried to sell it to you.

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yangwar

The way I see it, it's only "bad" pirating if the act of piracy takes revenue away from the publisher.

If I was realistically never going to buy it in the first place, than they haven't lost any revenue by me pirating it.

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Podmore

And the more you keep that attitude in mind, the less often you'd "realistically buy it." I'm betting that if you didn't have the ability to pirate, you would in fact buy some of the stuff you've stolen. Of course, I don't know you at all, but I think what I said is generally true of people.

BAMF

It really hurts when your unemployed and all the offers require expereince using a package that is way out of your price range (3d studios, microst visual c++, ...) I dont see it being a problem to steal it then and use it to gain experience, using it to make a profit is just another shade of gray.

rubicon

Computers, like your driver's license, are a privilege - not a right. If you can't afford to buy and maintain a computer, perhaps you shouldn't have one. It's a tough reality.

When I got a "real job" and had the money to spend, I certainly didn't spend it on software. It was spent on rent, car payment, insurance, or just goofing off. Hell, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

With today's free open source software there is no more room for the "I can't afford it" excuse. Download Linux and OpenOffice - you get general compatibility with Microsoft and you can give the finger to Bill Gates all day.

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slant eyes

i guess there's 2 sides to the story. i think it's wrong to charge that much for an os that would be obsolete in like 1 year. but at the same time, programmers and developers are demanding lots of pay.

sucks that microsoft has created a monopoly and thus is making a killing off of this. i think that they would have a better reputation if they actually reimbursed people who did purchase crappy software *cough* win ME *cough*.

and did it occur to some of you that your ip's were logged?

i hate what the riaa is doing, but i still shell out to buy albums of bands i really really like. with new dvd recorders, i never even think about copying movies. lots of work went into that, and if you get them at walmart on the tuesday they come out, it's usually 14 bux. odd how an awesome movie on dvd can cost less than a cd.

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rubicon

If you were a programmer, wouldn't you want to make more money too?

Here's another thought about the Microsoft monopoly... It takes a seller and a buyer. We're to blame for the success of Microsoft. We could have bought OS/2, Mac, or BeOS. In fact, Linux existed at the same time as OS/2 and NT 3.51.

Microsoft solved a problem at a time when users needed widespread compatibility and a fair price (IBM was the giant over-priced villain with crappy software in the 80s-90s).

Consumers "vote" with their dollars. Stealing MS software doesn't get rid of Windows - it simply propogates it and takes away from growing the market share of alternatives.

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CY@Workshop

Hey, nobody is forcing us to use Microsoft's products! You are most welcomed to be using other developers' softwares if you don't feel like paying for Microsoft's products.

As for the monopoly part, it's not like that anyone can becomes such a monopoly in the market. There must be reasons why Microsoft can be this successful.

Loki

so, say you see a one hundred dollar bill, or even a five dollar bill lying around on the gutter, if you pick it up, is that considered stealing?

Or a perhaps a bit of paper?

Or finding a really useful document on the internet that you decide to save for later on (even though the author has in no way given you permission to download it?)

Or knocking off a brand new Porsche or Ferrari? (Hell, even a Datsun 180B)

there are degrees to stealing, and stealing a copy of an infinitely re-copyable item doesnt rate that particularly highly in my book.

You say that piracy is directly correlational to cost. In order for this to occur, a critical assumption has to be fulfilled:

MS can make too much money, and will do something to reduce the amount of money they make.

Think about it. Lets say that tomorrow, magically, every single person repents thier evil ways, and decide to go legitimate. All of a sudden, MS is going to have a massive influx of cash, resulting in greater profits. In order for the price of thier software to go down, subsequently, MS would be required to cut the initial price of their software, which would result in less profits. A representation:

(n.b. this is a simplified model, assuming that MS regularly releases products, and everyone buys said products... Just to be used for illustration purposes only)

1) 1st Quarter, everyone goes legit, and microsoft records a massive increase in profits. Share prices skyrocket.
2) 2nd Quarter, MS drops prices, and due to this, lose billions of dollars of profit (a $50 dollar loss over twenty million users, lets say). Share prices tumble, because markets operate on speculation, i.e. growth/diminishment of profit, not actual profit.

So, MS loses a ton of money, and additionally, thier share prices tumble. Do you think its likely for MS to do that?

evercl

The reason M$ is a monopoly isn't because they did something right and no one else can replicate it. It's because the cost to enter the market is outrageous. Do you really think some kid in a garage making a sweet OS has the funds to compete with MS?? No way in hell. And even if said kid does get his OS on the market, MS offers the kid a few million and it's done. It's very very hard for any company to really compete with MS.

rubicon

I generally agree with your comments, however look at open-source projects. They're mostly "garage" in nature and their success is based on team work and volunteerism.

The non-Windows alternatives are all very capable and it's a matter educating the user. Wal-Mart's Lindows computers show users they have an affordable option which isn't Windws. In the end, that's how people are won over: value and price.

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The Bolshevist

I find it offensive to hear some people say that if you can't afford software, you shouldn't have a computer, or that everyone here can afford it and we are just liars. That takes a fair amount of assumptions. College students are barely making ends meet in Canada; I shudder to think about the US. The elderly, whom a computer may be a link to distant grandchildren, may own a computer given to them by a family member. The unemployed, who for no fault of their own, need a computer at home for retraining. What about these groups? Making computers a toy for the financial elite destroys the idea of a global village.

Personally, I do not pirate. I used to, and I still have an old copy of Windows 2.0 that I have on disk, which I have on "long term evaluation" (and have had since 1994 or thereabouts!) I use OpenOffice, simply because of the cost MS products and my low income. I occasionally buy a program from the clearance bin and I treated myself to a copy of The Sims recently. Everything else I get online, or do without. I am not going to judge another person for what they do; I can only deal with what I do, and hope others rest easy in their decisions. MS make good products, but I notice they often require patches. So much for a company that has 80% of the world market. And it is true; if piracy did disappear overnight, prices would not go down, for the shareholders would crucify the CEO.

That is my two kopeks worth.

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TwistedFate

At best this is an extremely weak argument.
1) the elderly are a miniscule portion of computer owners.
1a) Elderly that do own computers rarely upgrade/purchase new software mostly using it for email and not much else.
2) unemployed - Librarys have computers for public use, computers can be had for about $300 which hardly places them in the financial elite category, and colleges and training centers have computer labs. So why would they NEED one at home, especially since given the choice between someone who received professional training and someone who read a book and learned at home employers will choose the professionally trained individual most of the time (online courses notwithstanding).

Konichiwaneko

Bolshevist..in those examples you mention computers in general and not the software.

Can't really pirate a computer.

Let's say john doe saves enough too buy a computer...$1000 for his first ever. He probably will get it with windowsxp and MS Office standard (cause the sales men sold it too him). He has the software, not piracy involved.

I believe piracy because more rampant after your first initial purchase. Yet that's why MS and other companies offer upgrades.

You put $600 down for Pshop 5 years ago, but you want the latest...just put $149 down now.


I still believe...you can pirate, you can evaluate, but as soon as you make a dollar off that program...you buy it, or you get a legal version of it. Example..you are a college student...yeah go ahead and learn 3dsmax 5 on a pirate copy, but when you learn...don't tell studios you would render for them at home...go to their shop and work on their legit copies.

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