pixelbend

Check out this website and the products it offers:

http://www.cableburner.com/

Sounds like complete bunk to me, but I'm not an sound engineer either. What do you guys think?

tropple

I worked in electronics for quite a number of years and have never before heard anything quite so ludicrous.

I'm not an audiophile by any definition, but "burning-in" a cable? Burning-in is something I've only heard in association with operation testing and verifying electronics equipment.

Burn-in a cable? What's it's going to do? Age gracefully? Become seasoned like a Meerschaum pipe? All I've ever seen happen to cabling is environmental deterioration. I call shenanigans.

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hilbert25

Yeah, it's crap. Audiophiles love to think they can hear a difference though. I think dan from dansdata has talked about this in his letters column.

brandon11983

A good set of ears can hear a difference. Whether or not it the sound of a burned in cable gets "better," it does change. One needs a system up to a certain level before the benefits of high end cables become readily apparent. Please don't mock those that can hear the benefits of cables because you may not be able to.

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hilbert25

Look, whatever makes your system sound better to you is better for you. But, do not act condescending to others without your "golden ears" that can't hear the difference.

How can you explain this so called burn-in? I can see burning in amps, speakers, and perhaps even cd players. I can even see there possibly being a difference between Transparent cables and Radioshack, but every explanation for wire break in has been mumbo-jumbo about "aligning the molecules." Can you provide an actual explanation, or better yet, why don't you take a true double-blind test of cooked cables vs. new of the same brand of cable and post the results. It would provide a good bit of empiricism to separate the snake oil from real science.

neekap

Path of least resistance? Is taht really an issue in a stupid cable? Tell you what, I'll take the stance of the one hour photo labs. Send me your cable and a $20 bill. I'll hit it against a car battery's terminals and send it right back out to you. Next day service, you can't beat that!

tropple

;-)

http://homeentertainment.engadget.co...1346356845435/

Personally, I tend to believe the cryogenic theories for improving metalurgy in an aftermarket item. I know several people who swear by douglas SS barrels that've been cryo'ed.

Well, aren't I the yo-yo. Sorry for the double post.

If cable burn-in were real, doesn't it stand to reason that it would be something that companies who manufacure defense electronics would be doing "burn-in" of cable used in ECM/ESM systems? The signal strengths are orders of magnitude smaller and have frequencies that are in the giga-Hertz range. Seems that such wonderful technology would be a boon when it comes to saving your ass from missile.

Black Crows strike again. Bzzzt!

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brandon11983

I believe it was you who made the original condescending remark, saying that "audiophiles love to believe they can hear a difference." I have yet to research into what makes a broken in cable different, but I can hear a difference. I heard it Thursday at work, I had to replace a 2m Audioquest Sidewinder that we use every day with a 3m Audioquest Sidewinder. The system consisted of:

Shanling SCD-T200 SACD player, $2999
Rogue Audio Ninety Nine preamp, $2399
Rogue Audio Zeus dual mono 225wpc amp, $6799
Von Schweikert VR-4SE speakers, $5999
Audioquest Panther cables between pre and CD
Audioquest Sidewinder between pre and power
Audioquest Type-4 speaker cables

We listened to Norah Jones's Feels Like Home CD, a very well recorded album that I know extremely well. Norah's voice was noticeably smoother on the "burned in" cable. Her voice sounded downright harsh on the fresh cable, and that's off a tube amp which are known for their natural reproduction of vocals. You can call BS if you like, all I can tell you is what I heard.

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hilbert25

Now, you don't think that going from 2m to 3m would change anything would you? Multiplying the (albeit miniscule) resistance by 1.5 wouldn't have anything to do with it? Not to mention change the impedance, and capacitance of those cables? And perhaps, the different length required a different route, requiring more or less distortion than the original? Or the fact that you use one "everyday" and thus it could possibly be oxidized or some other way damaged? Granted all of that stuff should produce a miniscule change, but it is more measureable than the change from "fresh" to "burned". And since Audioquest believes in burning in their cables, couldn't they pre-cook them before shipping them out? Well they adress that, when they say that the cable will revert to a "fresh" state when a signal is removed, so who do you believe then? The manufacturer of the cable, or the ones that sell the cable-burner? As an aside, when I saw Audioquest, it reminded me of this page: http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/Audioquest.html

Like I mentioned earlier, audiophiles believing it will work is called the placebo effect, it has nothing to do with being condescending, but actual science. Here is a link: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...acebo%20effect

When talking about audio, the placebo effect refers to the phenomenon when somebody believes a piece of equipment will sound different, they will notice a difference, even if there is no change. For example: You can have a button on a reciever to make it "sound better", but all it does is light an LED. If you do a test to see the effects of the button, a significant portion of the listeners will say it sounds better or worse, despite the fact that there's absolutely no change.

What annoys me is when people try to justify their purchase by saying other people can't hear as well as they can, which can be true, but in most cases is probably bs.

brandon11983

I guess I wasn't specific enough, I swapped the cable out because the 2m was not long enough to reach to the amp when the VR-4SE's were placed in their optimal position. I did not make the switch with the intention of listening for any discernable difference in sound. But I did notice that Norah did not sound like I KNEW that her voice sounded on that particular track. I can't even count how many times I've listened to that album, I am extremely familiar with it and I know exactly how it should sound. Her voice simply did not sound right, and the only variable was the cable. I will not claim that I heard a difference based on the length of the new one, only that it was a "fresh" cable. I am well aware of the placebo effect in audio. I will be as bold to say that I know I am not affected by it. I have flat out admitted that I do not hear that much of a difference between CD and DVD-A or SACD. I can hear a difference, but at this point in my "audiophile-dom" I don't hear a night and day difference. I am a very skeptical person by nature, and I feel this helps me take in audio equipment with a slight advantage. Audioquest doesn't burn in their cables because they couldn't sell their DBS cables. Little joke there...

What annoys me is when people mock audiophiles for their relentless pursuit of sonic perfection, because they may not hear as well or they don't have a passion for music like an audiophile does.

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Chingal0

What annoys me is when people that claim to be audiophiles stake their claim to fame like it's a big fucking deal. It must be a running trend with people that consider themselves audiophiles, 'cause the couple I know make a big deal out of it.


Regarding the topic, it kind of sounds like bs to me, but I never really cared enough to find out either way, infact I had barely heard of 'cable burning' and all that shit before the post here. Mind you, I have heard OF it, but not a whole lot of stats and heresay about it's performance increases.

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hilbert25

A couple things:

You wouldn't happen to think that changing the speaker position would have anything to do with the sound? My point before was that from an empirical standpoint, you cannot claim that the change is due to the "burning in" of the cable when so many other factors also changed.

Claiming you are immune to the placebo effect is a nice thought. Possibly you are, but your example is actually doing you no favors. The outputs of cd/dvda/sacd are measureably different, but not hearing a difference could mean that the differences don't really matter, or that you are feeling the nocebo effect (a buzzword for the opposite of placebo, those psychologists are so creative).

By the DBS, I'm assuming you're referring to the cables with batteries to keep a "constant potential" or some such nonsense? Yeah, that was a funny product.

I have no problem with the pursuit of audio perfection, but audio elitism rubs me the wrong way. Especially when companies make their living by scamming people out of their hard earned money by selling snake oil, psychoacoustic products (*cough* $1000 transparent cable being made with a total of $5 in parts *cough*). Not that you are, but by listing the prices with your gear, you give the appearance of being one of those audiophiles that is trying to win a penis size contest by having the bigger/better/more esoteric system. Cooked cables will fit right into that mindset.

Esoteric cable companies are among the most notorious places in audio for bad science and I can find quite a few audio engineers to cite for this. The way that such companies would be able to validate themselves would be through double blind testing on large sample sizes (the only way to truly be rid of psychoacoustic effects), but nearly all are reluctant to do so.

Cynthetiq

I'll put this technology alongside the "CD Balance rings" weights that attached to the CD so that the centrifigal force kept it spinning straight.

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merkerguitars

Yeah I believe its complete bullshit too. One of my friends is a proffesional musician and he said it was a joke.

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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

brandon11983

I suppose you could have a point on the speaker position thing. It doesn't appear that either side is going to convince the other of their viewpoint. I never meant to come of as elitist or say my ears are better than anyone elses here. I apologize if I came off that way. The reason I put prices in the gear list was to show that the system being demoed was no slouch. I stated before that one needs a system to a certain quality before the benefits of cables can be realized to their full potential.

Some audio gear calls for its high priced based specifically on its name (are you listening Mr. Levinson?). Contrarywise, there is gear out there that sounds like it should be more expensive than what it is. We just picked up a new Danish brand called Audio Philosophy that sounds amazing for the money. They have a 70wpc integrated at $1699 that rocks the house.

Back on the cable topic, I have always been fascinated with the "smoke and mirrors" world of esoteric cables. Transparent Cable is the stuff that my dreams are made of. Art Dudley of Stereophile did a review of AQ's Cheetah (with DBS) cables. He noted although the effects were very minimal, they were there. He did several tests with and without the batteries connected. When he took in the cables as a whole (disregarding the fact that they have batteries on them) he liked them very much. And I know you're just being facetious on the $5 Transparent bit too...

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hilbert25

I do believe transparent are probably well made cables, but they are also the most overpriced piece of equipment that I have ever heard of ($10+k a foot?) So about my earlier Transparent comment, here is the original page of someone opening it up: http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?n...ewtopic&t=2953

Midway down this page, there is a translation: http://www.dansdata.com/danletters119.htm

I must admit, I am a skeptic for a lot of things audio, but it's not like I'm some luddite with a boombox. I can tell the difference between my NAD electronics and Rotel's 1070 series. And I know my Acoustic Energy Aegis one's don't hold a candle to anything by Vienna Acoustics. A good system tweak should work on my system as well as on any more expensive system (perhaps more so, since I have much further to climb to perfection).

I do realize that we will probably never see eye to eye on this, the old saying about arguing on the internet and special olympics, but as a student of the science of audio no one can take away how something sounds to you, they are your experiences, but you at least owe it to yourself to try to understand why something happens.

brandon11983

Rest assured my friend, I have full intentions of seeing exactly what is what with high end cables. Its one of the many things about high end audio that I want to learn about.

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basmoq

if this company was real, they would have audio measurements listed to prove their point

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brandon11983

All the measurements in the world don't mean a thing if you ears don't like them.

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Cynthetiq

I've passed this link to your the AV engineering department to see what they have to say about this... awaiting reply.

tropple

I wonder if Skeptic Magazine would investigate this?

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hilbert25

This is a very valid point. Since you appear to be a bottlehead with all that Rogue Audio gear, you're living proof that simple audio measurements (waveform diagrams) do not correlate at all to the pleasantness of the sound.

HOWEVER, there should be a measureable difference in the sound or in the physical characteristics of the wire in order to prove that the process changes something. Which if the company could provide a valid third party test :double blind listening, actual changes to resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc., then maybe it would do more to strengthen their position.

brandon11983

I should clarify something here, everyone else in the store are tube freaks. I do not like the sound of tubes at all. I can't quite pinpoint it to something specific about the sound I don't like. Adam says he thinks vocals sound more natural on tubes, I find them to be the polar opposite. I just don't like the way they sound.

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audioguru

Hilbert and some others seem to have some pretty strong ideas concerning something they seem to know little about.

What I'm curious about is are they closed minded to any knowledgeable input that might correct their position, or is trying to say anything just a total waste of time?

I haunt chat forum sites because often times there are those who know what they are talking about when I have questions about specific things, such as cable burners. I find responses such as ill informed references to something being ridiculous to be rather ridiculous.

Cable does have break in times that are all over the place.

See my intro for a funny story about my Uncle Dick, I'm almost sure none of these guys knows him.

---------- Post added at 02:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

Hilbert, in response to your statement about being able to hear what you hear and being a student of audio.

I think you are on to something there, but you might be missing a critical element. As a student you are going to be doing 95% listening to those who know what they are talking about. If you are talking (as a student) you can't hear what the master has to say. There are a lot of issues concerning cable that you could spend a lot more time soaking up info on rather than thinking you have become the master.

You make a reference to thinking that perhaps because your system isn't at the peak, tweaks should make an even bigger difference. That is exactly backwards. Tweaks make often times make differences in the realm of improvements that are in the subtle and finest of details. If a system doesn't have the resolution to operate in that realm of finest details your less than peak system simply won't register the difference at all. Good example here is that a good power cord makes enough difference to hear in any system. But the difference between a $500 cord and a $3500 is far more subtle and refined. In your system you wouldn't hear but a tiny difference, take a well put together and properly cabled $50k system and the $3500 power cord reveals layers of bass detail and background silence that are amazing. So in your system you aren't hearing any difference, does that mean you are making a valid point to tell someone else that the $3500 power cord is bunk and not worth wasting the money on? That is exactly what guys with mid grade systems do, they think that because they've tried quite an array of different things they have arrived at an elevated state. Two guys with tens of thousands of dollars in their systems discussing the merits of 3 to 5 thousand dollar power cords don't need to hear the input of the guy who can't relate.

No one can take how something sounds to you away from you, but until you have heard something in another system that has it right you aren't going to even hear what others are talking about. So where does your potentially fractional experience come into being able to definitively make a judgement call on something that they must be well beyond your experience in?

There's nothing more frustrating than those who are quick to make a call when their reference base just isn't there.

As a retired dealer I could show you differences in cable on any system price point you cared to listen to, it's all in the system synergy as pertains to the cables. I operated on a level that could take every individual system and evaluate it as to where the weak link is. By addressing weaknesses in order the differences are always rewarding and don't conflict with other upgrades. Upgrades made in the wrong order before a weak link is addressed get lost and don't make the difference they would or could if there were something else done first.

As to cable break in, it is a problem for someone who sells cable as customers want to hear the differences right away. Some of my favorite cables can go through really cruddy periods of as much as 3 or 4 weeks running them 24/7. Any device that could eliminate that would be a plus for a dealer selling cable.

I hope I haven't offended you as that wasn't the idea here.

StanT

My audio interest is pretty much limited to headphones these days. While my system isn't state of the art, it isn't bad either. I'm using a Woo Audio WA2 and Byerdynamic T1s, with a Jolida JD100 as a source.

I use a .5m silver cable between the cd player and the headphone amp. It has noticeably better sound than the cheap copper cable that it replaced. There was a break in period; but with 8 vacuum tubes, some older Blackgate capacitors, and newer headphones, I'm not sure I'd attribute the break in to cables.

To my ear, there is a large difference between $5 cables and $100 ones. Any difference between $100 cable and $1000 ones is inaudible to me.

I'll buy tube break in, as well as capacitor and headphones. Cable break in ought to be measurable with a signal generator and an oscilliscope. I haven't seen that demonstrated.

The bottom line, however, is that the only opinion that matters is your own. I'm infatuated with the sound quality that I get on my headphone system, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Jinn

audioguru, your whole post reads like an advertisement, and you question someone's opinion based on your own, without citing relevant information. Being able to "hear" the difference in cables is asinine and anecdotal at best, and Stan is right to say that "Cable breakin" would be easily measured by a signal generator and oscilloscope, or even more simply a multimeter. Cables carry one thing, and that is electrons. With margins left for noise, it's not going to transmit "better" electrons once it's broken in. It's pure nonsense, just like "Monster Cables."

As for headphones, there is absolutely difference between $5 headphones and quality headphones, but the quality is derived from the driver itself, and the range of sounds it is capable of reproducing. I've yet to hear a pair of headphones that beat Sennheiser over-the-ear or even PX100, because the tone range is much greater; has nothing to do with the cables to them.

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MSD

How much does it cost to outfit your house with audiophile-grade wiring, outlets, and circuit breakers? Once you do that, how do you manage to convince the local power company to run audiophile-grade wires back to an audiophile-grade substation connected by audiophile-grade high tension lines to what I can only assume is an audiophile-grade power plant?

Or did you skip all that red tape and just hook up a pure sinewave inverter to the cold fusion reactor in your basement.

citadel

I feel totaly left out here. I had no idea listening to music could be so expensive and complicated.

StanT

I use an online UPS that was a gift from a client (they didn't want to change the batteries). I do it because I know my power sucks; it's more about not frying things. I think you'd find power conditioners of some sort are pretty common in the audiophile community.

I'm still not buying cable break in.

MSD

I have to use power conditioners on gear at work (including audio gear) because we have pretty frequent drops of more than 30 volts; reading the logs on the UPSs is hilarious (hey look, on Saturday it was getting 65v at 51.5hz!) That's perfectly reasonable, spending more than the cost of a 110v end, however many feet of cable you need, and a C13 end, is not.

Cable burners and cables that cost more than about $2 a foot overall including terminations unless you're dealing with huge amounts of electrical or RF interference are snake oil, pure and simple.

Martian

No way! But the guy at the store said that with Monster cables the electricity moves faster! He had charts!

...

I still can't believe there are people who will spend more than $5-10 on a DVI cable for their digital signal. Y'know, the one that's either on or off. Nothing in between.

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MSD

True story:

I went with two of my friends to the grand opening of PC Richards. I had recently purchased several 6' HDMI cables from HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more! (you are a damn fool if a cable is available there and you buy it elsewhere) for $7 each (as of a few weeks ago, they were down to $1.45) I picked up a Monster brand HDMI cable of the same length priced at $79.99, looked at the back, and saw their comparison; my exact words were "oh my God, there's a more expensive version of this cable." On my way out I spotted the premium cable and it was $159.99

At this point, a salesman walked over and asked if he could help; I told him I was just looking at the cables and marveling at the prices, he responded that "Oh, I heard you say 'more expensive' and thought I could help." (I'm not making this up, and I can't blame him because when I worked at Radio Shack on commission I actually had a customer ask if I had something "a little more expensive.")

I pointed out that I had bought a functionally identical cable for less than 10% of what they were charging and he gladly explained to me that inferior cheap cables tend to have internal solder points that aren't exactly the same size, so the signal doesn't reach all the pins of the cable at the same time. I politely excused myself to the disappointment of my friends who were eager to see me debate the sales guy, especially since each of us had a couple of drinks before heading out. Once we were a few feet away but still in earshot of him, I told them "that man just told me something that directly contradicts what I know about the speed of light. Him versus Einstein, I know who my money is on."

I have not gone back to PC Richards since then.

Shadowex3

I have a very simple response: Everything to do with audio is completely empirically measurable from start right up until the point where it gets to your ears, if there's a change and you can't (or won't) measure it then the only reasonable conclusion is that the change is between said ears because otherwise Randi owes you a million dollars for finding a portable exemption to the laws of physics.

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