TV's- Recomend a good 24-27incher - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

-Ever- · 07-31-2004, 05:33 PM

So my 7+ year old 27inch Sony Trinitron tv just died on me and I don't have hopes of having it fixed.

I use my TV mainly for watching DVD's and for playing few XBOX video games. I'll be watching some general cable TV (the news, discovery, etc.) with it as well.

I've seen TV's of this size from anywhere between $100 and $1,500. I guess I'm just looking for some recomendations in the sub $450 area, more towards the $350 if possible.

I don't think I need high definition, unless HD-ready tv's affect DVD viewing.

One thing that bugs me is that I can easily see the "square-ish pixels" of most tube TV's. I don't mind this, however I saw a nice TV yesterday in Good Guys that didn't have this at all. The only difference I could see was that it was High Definition, but I don't think this would have affected it (they were playing a DVD). Either way, the image was comparable to a clean, clear plasma or LCD image, not your usual pixelated tube image. Does anyone know what technology brings this, and if it can be had in the price range that I'm looking in?

Thanks for any info guys. These are the only questions I can think of, so feel free to bring anything else to my attention.

Take care
-T

brandon11983 · 07-31-2004, 05:54 PM

You were probably just seeing the higher picture quality of a HDTV. Most HD sets have an upconversion chip that will take a given input (usually 480i) and upconvert it to the TV's native display rate (1080i or 720p). I highly doubt you can get an HD set in the price range you are shooting for. I used to sell JVC at my old store, and their 27" non flat set was a good performer. You could probably find one at a big box retailer for $299. On the high end of your price scale, you could probably get a 27" flat Zenith set. Zenith has really turned their line around since HDTV. Their TV's are actually good again. You can find that one between $399 and $449 at the big box stores.

ubertuber · 07-31-2004, 08:06 PM

I'll second the Zenith recommendation. I've got the 27 inch HD model. You'll get some improvement on your DVD playback. The HD set is going to push you up to the top of your price range. Nobody makes sets as good as Zenith in that size and price category. Samsung has some cheap ones, but they are...well, cheap. FYI, Zenith is bringing out a new line of HD ready TV's. The 27 inch model is the same as the old one, with the updated styling to keep the line consistent. This means that if you can get the old one (leaving the shelves now) it will be all of the same features and performance for a clearance price.

bltzkriegmcanon · 07-31-2004, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brandon11983
I used to sell JVC at my old store, and their 27" non flat set was a good performer. You could probably find one at a big box retailer for $299.

Gotta agree here, these babies are nice, I like 'em . My roomate and I have one apiece, they're really good televisions. Not a feature-fest or anything, but they have excellent image-quality, especially for analog-based tv, quite clear, and at $299, you just can't deny the value.

brandon11983 · 07-31-2004, 10:42 PM

I second the notion of getting a last year model of the Zenith HD set. The new one doesn't have the DCDi chip in it, and that makes all the diff in the world on non-HD content.

Cynthetiq · 08-01-2004, 03:09 AM

your Sony obviously lasted well, though I have small Sony Trinitron 9" B&W from 1968 that still works beautifully...

I'm going to suggest of course that you go with another Sony.

-Ever- · 08-01-2004, 10:19 AM

Thanks for the info guys.

Which major chains (Circut City, Good Guys, Best Buy, Fry's, ect.) carry the Zenith that last-year model Zenith that you are talking about? Which model is it?

Also, what's the deal with 3D comb filtering? I just remembered that the one Sony CRT that I really liked had this, and it was the one that I couldn't easily see the 'pixels' on. Can this technology be had in my price range?

Thanks again guys.
-Tim

brandon11983 · 08-01-2004, 11:04 AM

A 3D comb filter is used on RF and composite inputs to clean up video noise from the picture. Most TV's in the range you are looking at will have this feature. The Zenith in question is model C27V36. As far as where to find it.... anyone's guess is as good as mine.

-Ever- · 08-01-2004, 11:39 AM

Thanks for the info Brandon, I'm headed to a local Circut City to check some TV's out.

Before I go much further, I should throw this out. My 27in Sony managed to tip over when I was moving it in my car. It landed on the tube face, and I was sure it broke when I heard it go. I brought it into my house and watched a full DVD on it. The picture had a few waves here and there, but worked. After about 3 hours of use, the image when to stripes of primary color, then dissapeared. I figure it's time to upgrade, but I forgot to mention that I'm yet to get it examined.

Is there any chance of fixing this without a warranty?

Thanks again
-T

heyal256 · 08-01-2004, 06:58 PM

I figure that I'd throw in the 27 inch tv that I recently bought to replace my 10 year old tv a few weeks back. After looking at the tv's that were available from a few retailers, i wound up with this tv, toshiba 27af44 for $330 +tax

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3962983

Although If I was able to find an hd capable tv in roughly the same price range that you have, I would bought one myself.

ubertuber · 08-01-2004, 09:13 PM

Don't forget that you can force Circuit City to beat an advertised price by 10%. If you get a really motivated sales person (thanks to Ramon at 80th and Broadway) they'll call another store and consider a price quoted on the phone to be an advertisement. This way you can save a substantial amount on the best price someone else offers (10% will more than pay for your sales tax).

-Ever- · 08-02-2004, 11:29 AM

Thanks again guys.

So I just got back from Circut City. I did some asking about HD and different issues regarding why some images were appearing better than others.

In the end of the trip, I wound up liking a Magnavox HD TV for just under $500 (Magnavox 27MS5402) Does anyone know anything about their recent HD TV's and how they compare? It's more pricey than I'd like, however I simply can't stand seeing huge pixels that all the non-HD tv's seem to have.

Circut City didn't have any 27inch HD Sony or Zeniths for me to compare the Magnavox to.

Also, here's one of my main questions that I'm having a hard time getting answered: Will a DVD played on a HD tv present a better image than on a regular TV? What about an un-digital cable signal on both, which will be better? I was under the impression that HD TV's were only better when they had a digital signal. I did some research at HowStuffWorks and it says that the higher resolution will help any signal, but how much?

Thanks again guys
-T

ubertuber · 08-02-2004, 02:25 PM

IF you have a progressive scan dvd player, or IF your TV has an integrated like doubler (two things to ask about) then your DVD image will look better on the hi-def set as it can be displayed at 480p. Best of all would be if this tv had the ability to do 720p or 1080i native - you could get an upconverting dvd player and have really good pictures. If your tv has a line doubler, it may improve the picture for cable and broadcast, but then again it may make it worse (so you'd turn it off and have the same picture as everyone else). I wrote an explanation of resolutions and scan rates for someone else. I'll try to dig it up and link it later.

ubertuber · 08-02-2004, 02:31 PM

I'm gonna quote myself because that thread got kind of dense, so you'd have to wade through a lot.

Quote:

Originally posted by ubertuber
TV pictures are made up of lines across the screen. The picture a normal DVD player shows has 480 lines. There is a catch though - not every line is refreshed on every frame. This is known as an interlaced picture. So, a normal DVD picture is referred to as 480i, meaning 480 lines, interlaced. Enabling progressive scan will allow you to send a signal that refreshes every line for every frame. This is what progressive means. So, a progressive scan DVD player sends a picture that is 480p, or 480 lines, progressively scanned.

HDTV can be broadcast in 480p, 720p, or 1080i (they say that 1080p is coming, but I've never seen it or heard of it actually happening). An upconverting dvd player (like the new samsung, zenith, and LG models) can pass on DVD information to your TV at multiple resolutions. Remember how I said a progressive scan DVD player can take that 480i DVD and show it to you at 480p? Well, this guy can display that normal DVD at 720p or 1080i (which would look freaking great)!

Also, for info, which is sometimes really technical, go to www.avsforum.com - a website for people into a/v stuff in a scary way. (Hope that doesn't qualify as a plug. If it is, let me know and I'll edit)

-Ever- · 08-02-2004, 05:26 PM

Great, thanks for the info. I actually found some like-information at howstuffworks.com.

Quick question: As far as regular non-digital cable signals go, will they look better on a HD tv monitor?

So it sounds like my best bet is going to be to get a decent HD tv that can do good resolution and get a progressive scan dvd player for it.

Take care
-T

ubertuber · 08-02-2004, 08:53 PM

To be honest, on my TV (the Zenith we mentioned earlier) you can't really tell that much difference on standard def reception, and the Zenith has the Faroudja DCDi line doubling chip, which is one of the better ones out there. My impression is that the quality of signal coming in on my cable is really not that great, so doubling the lines is really not that big of a deal (you know, garbage in, garbage out). One last thing about this that I forgot to mention before... The hi-def packages offered over cable and sat to my knowledge run at a max of 480p. This qualifies as high definition (it is the same as those progressive scan dvd players), but is not exploiting the capabilities of the technology. The only way I am aware of getting 720p and 1080i is broadcast (with an antenna). Be warned that digital antennae and reception are a BITCH - more finicky than analog reception. At this point, I'd be looking at a set not counting on reliable reception over the air - so just consider your 480p, standard def, and possibly upconverted dvd usage. I've heard that the next generation of set-top boxes (which will pull in the digital signal from the antenna) will be much better - maybe Brandon11983 can confirm? He certainly knows more about the sat and cable packages than I do - I think I remember him saying something about selling them at his store.

brandon11983 · 08-02-2004, 09:49 PM

To address -Ever's quick question: non-digital cable signals will look piss poor on any TV. I had "digital" (don't even get me started on how much of a ripoff that was) cable with RCN for a few weeks and had it yanked (and got Dish instead) because the picture was horrendous. Now that I have Dish again, I couldn't be happier.

ubertuber, you bring some very good info to the thread. I did notice a few errors though. Dish Network broadcasts true 720p (ESPN HD) and 1080i (everything else) on their HD package. We never sold any DirecTV HD equipment so I can't address what they offer. I've never had HD cable, so I don't know about that either.

About digital off air broadcasts: I have found them to be easier to pull in than analog. Digital signals travel farther than their analog counterparts. Set top boxes are making it easy on self installers because most of them have signal strength indicators now. An HD satellite receiver will handle HD content via satellite and antenna. Channels coming from satellite and antenna will be shown in the guide and the receiver will do the necessary switching from the satelite input to the antenna input as needed.

I would seriously recommend going with satellite over cable TV. This is my unbiased opinion, as I no longer work as a Dish retailer. I really do think you will be happier with Dish. We originally went with RCN's cable TV and internet package because we saw it as a way to save money. I ask, what good is saving money if your quality of service sucks? With RCN, we were/would have been paying about $106 per month. We had their digital cable package with HBO and their 3 Mbps internet package. We had about 100 channels or so, 34 (thirty four) of which were digital. After a week or so of horrible service, I called RCN and had the cable TV taken off our account. I called Dish and had an appt. set up for install. I called mid-afternoon Friday, they were there at 9 a.m. Monday. We now have the Top 120 Value Pack. We get 120 (one hundred twenty) ALL DIGITAL channels, 8 HBO's and 5 Cinemax. We pay about $110 per month now. I feel much better paying another $4 per month and having infinitely better service. There is a very good reason why Dish Network's customer base is growing faster than DirecTV and ALL the cable companies' combined.

ubertuber · 08-02-2004, 10:14 PM

Hey Brandon, thanks for the corrections.

My comment on reception was based on my experience in NYC, which may be difficult due to buildings and the steel cages they use as superstructure. I had to get up and physically move the antenna (it was inside) to pull in different channels. Each position (sometimes only 15 degrees apart) seemed to pull in about 2 or 3 different channels. After several days of this I got fed up - all I was getting was some Spanish crap that I couldn't understand, cartoons, and some guy giving sermons. Yeah, it was hi-def, but not worth it.

It's good to know about Dish - ESPN in real hi-def would be worth it for sure!

brandon11983 · 08-02-2004, 10:47 PM

ESPN HD is as HD as it can be. It shot on HD cameras (you can see them sometimes) goes straight to the semi outside of whatever stadium they are at, shot up to the satellites, and then back down to you. It is mouth watering to watch.

-Ever- · 08-03-2004, 02:09 PM

Awesome information. I figure I could browse some video-specific forums for this kind of info, however I'm looking more for friendly information and recomendations as of now (IE TFP

)

So, here's a catch. I'm not even planning on watching much TV. The reason I asked that question (regarding general analog signals) was purely to learn about TV monitors. I was wondering if HD were able to make them look better even if the signal isn't digital. I'm not really worried about getting a good TV signal in the end, just monitor-curious for now.

So is Upconverted comparable to Progressive Scan when it comes to players? Do I have to spend $$$ on a DVD player to get quality and not have it be a bottle neck, or will PS plus an optical out suffice with a HD monitor?

Take care guys, thank again.
-T

-Ever- · 08-03-2004, 02:16 PM

:repost on accident:

-Ever- · 08-04-2004, 09:43 PM

ubertuber · 08-05-2004, 09:28 AM

Does your PS2 allow you to enable a progressive output? I think they do. If so, this is about as good as a mid-low end dvd player - certainly fine for watching movies. If you go with a dedicated dvd player, I'd definitely look for an upconverting model. When I had one hooked up to my tv via dvi, 1080 looked pretty good. It was definitely a noticeable step up from 480p.

-Ever- · 08-05-2004, 09:55 AM

So upconverting is superior to progressive scan, or is it an addition? And does the TV monitor have to be compatible in some way?

Thanks again bud
-Tim

ubertuber · 08-05-2004, 02:06 PM

You could consider progressive scan to be a type of upconverting - it is just converting to a particular format (480p). What we call an upconverting dvd player is different in that it can convert to a number of different formats - usually including 480p. So in that sense upcoverters are just a more extreme and flexible version of progressive scanners.

I know this is a little confusing - mostly because there are several levels or types of HD (480p, 720p, 1080i, and the mythical 1080p). For the best possible results, find out which scan rates your TV can display natively and get a dvd player that will allow you to send those scan rates to the TV. This means that it will actually display the scan rate rather than convert it to something it can manage. Example: if your TV doesn't have enough resolution to support 720p, it will probably still accept a 720p signal. It will just convert that signal to something it can handle (probably 480p) and display that instead. If your TV can only go as high as 480p, don't worry about an upconverting DVD player - it wouldn't matter anyway.

Another thing to think about is that the ability to accept a DVI (or HDMI, the newest thing) signal is a big deal. Digital transmission from DVD to TV is much better. Even if it meant holding off for a bit to save more money I'd do it to get a TV with the DVI or HDMI input.

-Ever- · 08-05-2004, 03:57 PM

I'd never heard of there being TV's with DVI before. I wonder if companies like Sony regularly use them on their higher-level CRT's and DVD players.

I spoke with a friend of a friend lastnight who used to work in a TV department at Circut City. He said that I don't need to spend the money on a HD TV if I'm not going to be watching TV. He said that a ProgressiveScan *TV* will have all the resolution I need. Is this correct?

Furthermore, one of my friend's told me that X-Box has digital out and a component cord can be bought for it and has 1080 potential. Will there be any bottleneck in this, to your knowledge?

Thanks again bud, tomorrow is the day I report all this to my dad who's going to be helping me out with the shopping

Take care
-T

PS: does anyone have a link to a forum that specifies in this kind of talk? I'd assume take it there from here, you've all been plenty helpful.

-Ever- · 08-08-2004, 10:14 AM

Hey guys, I'm back.

I've spent the past few days at the AVS forums getting tons of help. After a lot of research, the antes have been upped

I'm not deciding between the Zenith CV27V36 and the Sony KV27HS420. The only problem is that I'm basing my purchase on reviews. All the Circut Cities and Best Buys have these TV's hooked up imporperly so I can't really buy based on how the image looks there.

The main thing I'm excited about with these TVs are their ability to do DVI (the Zenith) and HDMI (the Sony). They're backwards-compatible though so I'm not going to chose based on just that. Do you guys have any comments regarding these TV's? I found the Zenith for $515 in the area, and I think the Sony can be had in the mid-high $600's too.

Thanks for any more info.
-Tim

brandon11983 · 08-08-2004, 11:15 AM

I would vote for the Zenith on the sheer factor of price and that it has a DCDi chip in it. HDMI and DVI are basically two like ways of sending a digital picture to a monitor. I have never seen the two side by side, but I have seen them both. I have a very good knowledge of what the Zenith looks like and based it against the Sony. I would definitely give the advantage of contrast to the Zenith. It has better black and white levels, and reveals more in dimly lit scenes. In terms of definition and resolution they are equal. With the money you can save with the Zenith and what the DCDi can do for non-HD signals, that would be my choice.

-Ever- · 08-08-2004, 04:15 PM

Thanks Brandon, I think tomorrow will be the day I buy!

Do you know anything about the Samsung DVDHD841? It's the newer DVI-output Samsung. I've heard some sketchy things about it, but it's the only DVI-out player that the Circut City with the Zenith TV has...

Thanks again
-Tim

ubertuber · 08-08-2004, 04:52 PM

That's the one I was thinking about getting. If you are referring to stuff you heard on AVS Forum, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Those guys complain about problems and talk about them so much that they get blown out of proportion. This is really the second generation of DVI out players, so I would think that quality would be pretty much ok. Besides, with Circuit City you can just take it back for any reason at all within 30 days. Now, don't discount the cost of the dvi cable that circuit city is going to try to sell you - they only carry monster cable, and that sucker is like 100 bucks. Maybe Brandon11983 could recommend a different cable...

-Ever- · 08-08-2004, 05:45 PM

You're very right, I have definitely gotten sucked into their perfection over there!

I'll go for the player tomorrow. I'm still deciding between the Sony and the Zenith though. I hear more and more that Sony will have a step-higher picture quality no matter what, but people just haven't been able to justify its higher price...

One thing I also heard that might concern me about the Zenith is that if it upconverts to 1080i, it keeps it in a small image (ie it can't expand it to full-screen). Do you guys know anything about this.

Thanks again buds.
-Tim

ubertuber · 08-09-2004, 05:27 AM

Hmmm... The Zenith can't "upconvert". It could accept a 1080i signal though and display it. If you mean that you can't use a full screen viewing mode on 1080i, I think you are correct. However, I'm not sure why you would want to - youd either be distorting the picture to make it taller or chopping off the sides and zooming in towards the middle - both of which seem to me to be undesirable. I know that there are many that insist on full-screen presentation, but I really on.y buy and watch movies in widescreen, even if it means having black bars above and below the screen. I just figure that if that's how the thing was filmed, that's how I want to see it. Are you sure the Sony can use picture-mode processing on 1080i?

-Ever- · 08-09-2004, 07:37 AM

To be honest, I'm not sure what pictre-mode processing is, this is just what I heard from a man I'm keeping in touch with at AVS. I'll copy/paste his quote (he too owns the Zenith):

"One of the BIGGEST problems I have with the Zenith is that You cannot EXPAND a HD image(1080i image whether from a Set-top box or otherwise). It will either be forced to a 16:9 image(black bars on top and bottom) or PILLARBOXED(Black Bars all around. Makes a 27" picture like a 23"-24" picture). This is the one thing that truly SUCKS about the Zenith. With either a digital image outputed at 480i or 480p, the image can be ZOMMED or STRETCHED to fill the Screen.

On other models(Samsung for certain that I know of. Probably Sony too. Check on all of them FIRST THOUGH. Make sure the image you are watching is HD[1080i])you can STRETCH or ZOOM the HD IMAGE TO FILL THE SCREEN. 480i/p can be streched or zoomed without a problem on all sets for the most part. BUT MAKE SURE!"

Not quite sure what he was getting at, maybe just for HT-TV viewing, not DVD?

The reason I brought it up is because it was one of the only concerns I heard for the Zenith so far.

Thanks again bud. I think today is the day. Any last words? Is there anything I should look for specifically when comparing the Sony and Zenith today? I wish they had them both set up to their full potential, side by side (HDMI/DVI, good cables, etc.)!

Take care
-T

ubertuber · 08-09-2004, 12:26 PM

OK. He means that when you are watching content that produced in "letterbox" mode in 1080i you can't stretch it to eliminate the black bars at the top and bottom. That is true of the Zenith - I can't speak for the Sony. I think you can stretch and zoom in 480p (progressive scan level). If that matters to you, find out if the Sony is better. It simply isn't an issue to me. I'd rather watch things in widescreen if that is how they were made. The black bars don't bother me. Stretching the picture and zooming in (which crops the sides off) does. You'll have to make your own call about what your priorities are.

Have fun, and let us know what you get!

Ryan · 08-14-2004, 08:20 PM

To echo what has alreayd been said, The JVC 27 inch tv, non flat screen, is really a nice tv set. My only complaint is the remote it comes with is just horrible and it stopped working after about 2 months, the channel forward, and the 5 no longer worked. Other than that it has been an excellent tv.

-Ever- · 08-14-2004, 08:24 PM

I wound up getting the 32 inch HD Sony (32HS420) and I'm loving it!

Now I just need some HDMI DVD players to come out

Thanks for all the info guys.

-T

ubertuber · 08-14-2004, 10:12 PM

Or course, you could get a DVI player and use a DVI to HDMI cable. I'm glad you are enjoying your new purchase!

-Ever- · 08-14-2004, 10:25 PM

Yeah I've been thinking about doing that. However I'm not in any hurry so I figure I'll wait for some of the new HDMI players that are slated to come out soon. The Samsung 841 seems cool, but I'm hoping that the 941 will have some improvements aside from doing HDMI without any switch-a-roo

Thanks again bud.

-Tim

Doog1983 · 08-17-2004, 08:09 AM

I just bought myself a Sony XBR...it's sweet...get one too

portwineboy · 08-17-2004, 08:25 PM

I've been drooling over that 32" WEGA you bought! I checked one out at high end store where it was hooked up correctly and I thought I was dreaming.

Can I stop over and watch some DVDs? I'll bring the popcorn and beer.

07-31-2004, 05:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	TV's- Recomend a good 24-27incher So my 7+ year old 27inch Sony Trinitron tv just died on me and I don't have hopes of having it fixed. I use my TV mainly for watching DVD's and for playing few XBOX video games. I'll be watching some general cable TV (the news, discovery, etc.) with it as well. I've seen TV's of this size from anywhere between $100 and $1,500. I guess I'm just looking for some recomendations in the sub $450 area, more towards the $350 if possible. I don't think I need high definition, unless HD-ready tv's affect DVD viewing. One thing that bugs me is that I can easily see the "square-ish pixels" of most tube TV's. I don't mind this, however I saw a nice TV yesterday in Good Guys that didn't have this at all. The only difference I could see was that it was High Definition, but I don't think this would have affected it (they were playing a DVD). Either way, the image was comparable to a clean, clear plasma or LCD image, not your usual pixelated tube image. Does anyone know what technology brings this, and if it can be had in the price range that I'm looking in? Thanks for any info guys. These are the only questions I can think of, so feel free to bring anything else to my attention. Take care -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

07-31-2004, 05:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	You were probably just seeing the higher picture quality of a HDTV. Most HD sets have an upconversion chip that will take a given input (usually 480i) and upconvert it to the TV's native display rate (1080i or 720p). I highly doubt you can get an HD set in the price range you are shooting for. I used to sell JVC at my old store, and their 27" non flat set was a good performer. You could probably find one at a big box retailer for $299. On the high end of your price scale, you could probably get a 27" flat Zenith set. Zenith has really turned their line around since HDTV. Their TV's are actually good again. You can find that one between $399 and $449 at the big box stores. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

07-31-2004, 08:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	I'll second the Zenith recommendation. I've got the 27 inch HD model. You'll get some improvement on your DVD playback. The HD set is going to push you up to the top of your price range. Nobody makes sets as good as Zenith in that size and price category. Samsung has some cheap ones, but they are...well, cheap. FYI, Zenith is bringing out a new line of HD ready TV's. The 27 inch model is the same as the old one, with the updated styling to keep the line consistent. This means that if you can get the old one (leaving the shelves now) it will be all of the same features and performance for a clearance price. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

07-31-2004, 10:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I second the notion of getting a last year model of the Zenith HD set. The new one doesn't have the DCDi chip in it, and that makes all the diff in the world on non-HD content. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

08-01-2004, 03:09 AM	#6 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	your Sony obviously lasted well, though I have small Sony Trinitron 9" B&W from 1968 that still works beautifully... I'm going to suggest of course that you go with another Sony. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-01-2004, 10:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Thanks for the info guys. Which major chains (Circut City, Good Guys, Best Buy, Fry's, ect.) carry the Zenith that last-year model Zenith that you are talking about? Which model is it? Also, what's the deal with 3D comb filtering? I just remembered that the one Sony CRT that I really liked had this, and it was the one that I couldn't easily see the 'pixels' on. Can this technology be had in my price range? Thanks again guys. -Tim __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses-- Last edited by -Ever-; 08-01-2004 at 10:25 AM..

08-01-2004, 11:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	A 3D comb filter is used on RF and composite inputs to clean up video noise from the picture. Most TV's in the range you are looking at will have this feature. The Zenith in question is model C27V36. As far as where to find it.... anyone's guess is as good as mine. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

08-01-2004, 11:39 AM	#9 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Thanks for the info Brandon, I'm headed to a local Circut City to check some TV's out. Before I go much further, I should throw this out. My 27in Sony managed to tip over when I was moving it in my car. It landed on the tube face, and I was sure it broke when I heard it go. I brought it into my house and watched a full DVD on it. The picture had a few waves here and there, but worked. After about 3 hours of use, the image when to stripes of primary color, then dissapeared. I figure it's time to upgrade, but I forgot to mention that I'm yet to get it examined. Is there any chance of fixing this without a warranty? Thanks again -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-01-2004, 06:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
heyal256 Not so great lurker Location: NY	I figure that I'd throw in the 27 inch tv that I recently bought to replace my 10 year old tv a few weeks back. After looking at the tv's that were available from a few retailers, i wound up with this tv, toshiba 27af44 for $330 +tax http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3962983 Although If I was able to find an hd capable tv in roughly the same price range that you have, I would bought one myself.

08-01-2004, 09:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Don't forget that you can force Circuit City to beat an advertised price by 10%. If you get a really motivated sales person (thanks to Ramon at 80th and Broadway) they'll call another store and consider a price quoted on the phone to be an advertisement. This way you can save a substantial amount on the best price someone else offers (10% will more than pay for your sales tax). __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-02-2004, 11:29 AM	#12 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Thanks again guys. So I just got back from Circut City. I did some asking about HD and different issues regarding why some images were appearing better than others. In the end of the trip, I wound up liking a Magnavox HD TV for just under $500 (Magnavox 27MS5402) Does anyone know anything about their recent HD TV's and how they compare? It's more pricey than I'd like, however I simply can't stand seeing huge pixels that all the non-HD tv's seem to have. Circut City didn't have any 27inch HD Sony or Zeniths for me to compare the Magnavox to. Also, here's one of my main questions that I'm having a hard time getting answered: Will a DVD played on a HD tv present a better image than on a regular TV? What about an un-digital cable signal on both, which will be better? I was under the impression that HD TV's were only better when they had a digital signal. I did some research at HowStuffWorks and it says that the higher resolution will help any signal, but how much? Thanks again guys -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses-- Last edited by -Ever-; 08-02-2004 at 12:29 PM..

08-02-2004, 02:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	IF you have a progressive scan dvd player, or IF your TV has an integrated like doubler (two things to ask about) then your DVD image will look better on the hi-def set as it can be displayed at 480p. Best of all would be if this tv had the ability to do 720p or 1080i native - you could get an upconverting dvd player and have really good pictures. If your tv has a line doubler, it may improve the picture for cable and broadcast, but then again it may make it worse (so you'd turn it off and have the same picture as everyone else). I wrote an explanation of resolutions and scan rates for someone else. I'll try to dig it up and link it later. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-02-2004, 05:26 PM	#15 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Great, thanks for the info. I actually found some like-information at howstuffworks.com. Quick question: As far as regular non-digital cable signals go, will they look better on a HD tv monitor? So it sounds like my best bet is going to be to get a decent HD tv that can do good resolution and get a progressive scan dvd player for it. Take care -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-02-2004, 08:53 PM	#16 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	To be honest, on my TV (the Zenith we mentioned earlier) you can't really tell that much difference on standard def reception, and the Zenith has the Faroudja DCDi line doubling chip, which is one of the better ones out there. My impression is that the quality of signal coming in on my cable is really not that great, so doubling the lines is really not that big of a deal (you know, garbage in, garbage out). One last thing about this that I forgot to mention before... The hi-def packages offered over cable and sat to my knowledge run at a max of 480p. This qualifies as high definition (it is the same as those progressive scan dvd players), but is not exploiting the capabilities of the technology. The only way I am aware of getting 720p and 1080i is broadcast (with an antenna). Be warned that digital antennae and reception are a BITCH - more finicky than analog reception. At this point, I'd be looking at a set not counting on reliable reception over the air - so just consider your 480p, standard def, and possibly upconverted dvd usage. I've heard that the next generation of set-top boxes (which will pull in the digital signal from the antenna) will be much better - maybe Brandon11983 can confirm? He certainly knows more about the sat and cable packages than I do - I think I remember him saying something about selling them at his store. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-02-2004, 09:49 PM	#17 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	To address -Ever's quick question: non-digital cable signals will look piss poor on any TV. I had "digital" (don't even get me started on how much of a ripoff that was) cable with RCN for a few weeks and had it yanked (and got Dish instead) because the picture was horrendous. Now that I have Dish again, I couldn't be happier. ubertuber, you bring some very good info to the thread. I did notice a few errors though. Dish Network broadcasts true 720p (ESPN HD) and 1080i (everything else) on their HD package. We never sold any DirecTV HD equipment so I can't address what they offer. I've never had HD cable, so I don't know about that either. About digital off air broadcasts: I have found them to be easier to pull in than analog. Digital signals travel farther than their analog counterparts. Set top boxes are making it easy on self installers because most of them have signal strength indicators now. An HD satellite receiver will handle HD content via satellite and antenna. Channels coming from satellite and antenna will be shown in the guide and the receiver will do the necessary switching from the satelite input to the antenna input as needed. I would seriously recommend going with satellite over cable TV. This is my unbiased opinion, as I no longer work as a Dish retailer. I really do think you will be happier with Dish. We originally went with RCN's cable TV and internet package because we saw it as a way to save money. I ask, what good is saving money if your quality of service sucks? With RCN, we were/would have been paying about $106 per month. We had their digital cable package with HBO and their 3 Mbps internet package. We had about 100 channels or so, 34 (thirty four) of which were digital. After a week or so of horrible service, I called RCN and had the cable TV taken off our account. I called Dish and had an appt. set up for install. I called mid-afternoon Friday, they were there at 9 a.m. Monday. We now have the Top 120 Value Pack. We get 120 (one hundred twenty) ALL DIGITAL channels, 8 HBO's and 5 Cinemax. We pay about $110 per month now. I feel much better paying another $4 per month and having infinitely better service. There is a very good reason why Dish Network's customer base is growing faster than DirecTV and ALL the cable companies' combined. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

08-02-2004, 10:14 PM	#18 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Hey Brandon, thanks for the corrections. My comment on reception was based on my experience in NYC, which may be difficult due to buildings and the steel cages they use as superstructure. I had to get up and physically move the antenna (it was inside) to pull in different channels. Each position (sometimes only 15 degrees apart) seemed to pull in about 2 or 3 different channels. After several days of this I got fed up - all I was getting was some Spanish crap that I couldn't understand, cartoons, and some guy giving sermons. Yeah, it was hi-def, but not worth it. It's good to know about Dish - ESPN in real hi-def would be worth it for sure! __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-02-2004, 10:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	ESPN HD is as HD as it can be. It shot on HD cameras (you can see them sometimes) goes straight to the semi outside of whatever stadium they are at, shot up to the satellites, and then back down to you. It is mouth watering to watch. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

08-03-2004, 02:09 PM	#20 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Awesome information. I figure I could browse some video-specific forums for this kind of info, however I'm looking more for friendly information and recomendations as of now (IE TFP ) So, here's a catch. I'm not even planning on watching much TV. The reason I asked that question (regarding general analog signals) was purely to learn about TV monitors. I was wondering if HD were able to make them look better even if the signal isn't digital. I'm not really worried about getting a good TV signal in the end, just monitor-curious for now. So is Upconverted comparable to Progressive Scan when it comes to players? Do I have to spend $$$ on a DVD player to get quality and not have it be a bottle neck, or will PS plus an optical out suffice with a HD monitor? Take care guys, thank again. -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-03-2004, 02:16 PM	#21 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	:repost on accident: __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-04-2004, 09:43 PM	#22 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Bump __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-05-2004, 09:28 AM	#23 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Does your PS2 allow you to enable a progressive output? I think they do. If so, this is about as good as a mid-low end dvd player - certainly fine for watching movies. If you go with a dedicated dvd player, I'd definitely look for an upconverting model. When I had one hooked up to my tv via dvi, 1080 looked pretty good. It was definitely a noticeable step up from 480p. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-05-2004, 09:55 AM	#24 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	So upconverting is superior to progressive scan, or is it an addition? And does the TV monitor have to be compatible in some way? Thanks again bud -Tim __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-05-2004, 02:06 PM	#25 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	You could consider progressive scan to be a type of upconverting - it is just converting to a particular format (480p). What we call an upconverting dvd player is different in that it can convert to a number of different formats - usually including 480p. So in that sense upcoverters are just a more extreme and flexible version of progressive scanners. I know this is a little confusing - mostly because there are several levels or types of HD (480p, 720p, 1080i, and the mythical 1080p). For the best possible results, find out which scan rates your TV can display natively and get a dvd player that will allow you to send those scan rates to the TV. This means that it will actually display the scan rate rather than convert it to something it can manage. Example: if your TV doesn't have enough resolution to support 720p, it will probably still accept a 720p signal. It will just convert that signal to something it can handle (probably 480p) and display that instead. If your TV can only go as high as 480p, don't worry about an upconverting DVD player - it wouldn't matter anyway. Another thing to think about is that the ability to accept a DVI (or HDMI, the newest thing) signal is a big deal. Digital transmission from DVD to TV is much better. Even if it meant holding off for a bit to save more money I'd do it to get a TV with the DVI or HDMI input. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 08-05-2004 at 02:09 PM..

08-05-2004, 03:57 PM	#26 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	I'd never heard of there being TV's with DVI before. I wonder if companies like Sony regularly use them on their higher-level CRT's and DVD players. I spoke with a friend of a friend lastnight who used to work in a TV department at Circut City. He said that I don't need to spend the money on a HD TV if I'm not going to be watching TV. He said that a ProgressiveScan TV will have all the resolution I need. Is this correct? Furthermore, one of my friend's told me that X-Box has digital out and a component cord can be bought for it and has 1080 potential. Will there be any bottleneck in this, to your knowledge? Thanks again bud, tomorrow is the day I report all this to my dad who's going to be helping me out with the shopping Take care -T PS: does anyone have a link to a forum that specifies in this kind of talk? I'd assume take it there from here, you've all been plenty helpful. __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses-- Last edited by -Ever-; 08-06-2004 at 10:19 AM..

08-08-2004, 10:14 AM	#27 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Hey guys, I'm back. I've spent the past few days at the AVS forums getting tons of help. After a lot of research, the antes have been upped I'm not deciding between the Zenith CV27V36 and the Sony KV27HS420. The only problem is that I'm basing my purchase on reviews. All the Circut Cities and Best Buys have these TV's hooked up imporperly so I can't really buy based on how the image looks there. The main thing I'm excited about with these TVs are their ability to do DVI (the Zenith) and HDMI (the Sony). They're backwards-compatible though so I'm not going to chose based on just that. Do you guys have any comments regarding these TV's? I found the Zenith for $515 in the area, and I think the Sony can be had in the mid-high $600's too. Thanks for any more info. -Tim __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-08-2004, 11:15 AM	#28 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I would vote for the Zenith on the sheer factor of price and that it has a DCDi chip in it. HDMI and DVI are basically two like ways of sending a digital picture to a monitor. I have never seen the two side by side, but I have seen them both. I have a very good knowledge of what the Zenith looks like and based it against the Sony. I would definitely give the advantage of contrast to the Zenith. It has better black and white levels, and reveals more in dimly lit scenes. In terms of definition and resolution they are equal. With the money you can save with the Zenith and what the DCDi can do for non-HD signals, that would be my choice. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

08-08-2004, 04:15 PM	#29 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Thanks Brandon, I think tomorrow will be the day I buy! Do you know anything about the Samsung DVDHD841? It's the newer DVI-output Samsung. I've heard some sketchy things about it, but it's the only DVI-out player that the Circut City with the Zenith TV has... Thanks again -Tim __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-08-2004, 04:52 PM	#30 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	That's the one I was thinking about getting. If you are referring to stuff you heard on AVS Forum, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Those guys complain about problems and talk about them so much that they get blown out of proportion. This is really the second generation of DVI out players, so I would think that quality would be pretty much ok. Besides, with Circuit City you can just take it back for any reason at all within 30 days. Now, don't discount the cost of the dvi cable that circuit city is going to try to sell you - they only carry monster cable, and that sucker is like 100 bucks. Maybe Brandon11983 could recommend a different cable... __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-08-2004, 05:45 PM	#31 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	You're very right, I have definitely gotten sucked into their perfection over there! I'll go for the player tomorrow. I'm still deciding between the Sony and the Zenith though. I hear more and more that Sony will have a step-higher picture quality no matter what, but people just haven't been able to justify its higher price... One thing I also heard that might concern me about the Zenith is that if it upconverts to 1080i, it keeps it in a small image (ie it can't expand it to full-screen). Do you guys know anything about this. Thanks again buds. -Tim __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-09-2004, 05:27 AM	#32 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Hmmm... The Zenith can't "upconvert". It could accept a 1080i signal though and display it. If you mean that you can't use a full screen viewing mode on 1080i, I think you are correct. However, I'm not sure why you would want to - youd either be distorting the picture to make it taller or chopping off the sides and zooming in towards the middle - both of which seem to me to be undesirable. I know that there are many that insist on full-screen presentation, but I really on.y buy and watch movies in widescreen, even if it means having black bars above and below the screen. I just figure that if that's how the thing was filmed, that's how I want to see it. Are you sure the Sony can use picture-mode processing on 1080i? __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-09-2004, 07:37 AM	#33 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	To be honest, I'm not sure what pictre-mode processing is, this is just what I heard from a man I'm keeping in touch with at AVS. I'll copy/paste his quote (he too owns the Zenith): "One of the BIGGEST problems I have with the Zenith is that You cannot EXPAND a HD image(1080i image whether from a Set-top box or otherwise). It will either be forced to a 16:9 image(black bars on top and bottom) or PILLARBOXED(Black Bars all around. Makes a 27" picture like a 23"-24" picture). This is the one thing that truly SUCKS about the Zenith. With either a digital image outputed at 480i or 480p, the image can be ZOMMED or STRETCHED to fill the Screen. On other models(Samsung for certain that I know of. Probably Sony too. Check on all of them FIRST THOUGH. Make sure the image you are watching is HD[1080i])you can STRETCH or ZOOM the HD IMAGE TO FILL THE SCREEN. 480i/p can be streched or zoomed without a problem on all sets for the most part. BUT MAKE SURE!" Not quite sure what he was getting at, maybe just for HT-TV viewing, not DVD? The reason I brought it up is because it was one of the only concerns I heard for the Zenith so far. Thanks again bud. I think today is the day. Any last words? Is there anything I should look for specifically when comparing the Sony and Zenith today? I wish they had them both set up to their full potential, side by side (HDMI/DVI, good cables, etc.)! Take care -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-09-2004, 12:26 PM	#34 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	OK. He means that when you are watching content that produced in "letterbox" mode in 1080i you can't stretch it to eliminate the black bars at the top and bottom. That is true of the Zenith - I can't speak for the Sony. I think you can stretch and zoom in 480p (progressive scan level). If that matters to you, find out if the Sony is better. It simply isn't an issue to me. I'd rather watch things in widescreen if that is how they were made. The black bars don't bother me. Stretching the picture and zooming in (which crops the sides off) does. You'll have to make your own call about what your priorities are. Have fun, and let us know what you get! __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

08-14-2004, 08:20 PM	#35 (permalink)
Ryan Crazy	To echo what has alreayd been said, The JVC 27 inch tv, non flat screen, is really a nice tv set. My only complaint is the remote it comes with is just horrible and it stopped working after about 2 months, the channel forward, and the 5 no longer worked. Other than that it has been an excellent tv.

08-14-2004, 08:24 PM	#36 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	I wound up getting the 32 inch HD Sony (32HS420) and I'm loving it! Now I just need some HDMI DVD players to come out Thanks for all the info guys. -T __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-14-2004, 10:12 PM	#37 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Or course, you could get a DVI player and use a DVI to HDMI cable. I'm glad you are enjoying your new purchase! __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam