ATTENTION: "Why Linux is Not for You: The Lengthy Rebuttal of a Linux User" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SecretMethod70 · 05-01-2003, 03:22 PM

Just a quick warning, this is fairly long. Perhaps you'll want to read it in installments

As such, I'll be making a seperate post for each of the 5 parts. BUT, if you're considering trying out Linux or "switching" to Linux, I would say this is a must read.

(Link for those would would rather have the OSNews layout of this article

- http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3297

Quote:

Why Linux is Not for You: The Lengthy Rebuttal of a Linux User

By Preston Liam Whels - Posted on 2003-04-16 18:07:06
at OSNews (http://www.osnews.com/)

Put yourself in his/her shoes. You're a budding young technical writer and the one word you hear popping up in almost every tech-related conversation is, you guessed it, Linux. Now look in the mirror and try to tell yourself you're more than a writer. After all, you write about technology because it not only interests you, but you're accurate and fair enough to tell it like it is. Maybe not.

Why Linux is not for You, Part 1

We've used the word Linux here to signify Linux as an OS. Thus unless it is specifically mention Linux as a kernel within the context of the article it means Linux as an OS/platform and more specifically as different distributions. Also, all opinions are these of the author, and not necessarily those of osnews.com.

I'm not a technical writer. I'm not someone who's only used the most well known Operating Systems. And most importantly, I'm not someone who is going to try and convince you that you need to switch to Linux if you're currently using Windows. Let me go one step further... I'm going to tell you why Linux is NOT for you. Hopefully the people I'm talking to will be seeing clearly enough to know who they are by the end of this article.

I remember not too long ago reading a comment on OSNews, or maybe it was Slashdot, or maybe it was on my own web site. Where it was is not what's important. What is important is not just what it had in it, but how frequently I've seen it. I'm certain you're all familiar with comments like the one I'm talking about and I'm certain you're all familiar with reading it in tens and hundreds of technical writeups over time. The statement at hand goes something like, "... if you want to start seeing Linux on the desktop, the Linux user base is going to have to start saying a little bit more than RTFM to every question that comes their way, especially if you want to take down Redmond (Microsoft)." I'd like for a minute that everyone reading this focus on the last part, the "especially if you want to take down Redmond" part. I'm not sure when using Linux became synonymous with trying to run Microsoft out of business, but at some point in the past year or so, it did happen. My question to you is, who made it that way?

The most obvious answer to who made the Linux philosophy, "destroy Microsoft," would be that the Linux users made it that. While it may be true that most Linux users have a certain amount of spite, and maybe too much in some cases, for Microsoft, it is not true that we use Linux because of that. I'm going to now direct you all to a quote I'm sure many of you are all familiar with; it is as follows: "*BSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Windows." Cheers to whoever said it for producing such witty words that you can now find it in peoples' .sig's, but shame for saying it when you are clearly biased towards *BSD. I'm not implying that the person who said it never used Linux. I'm not even saying the person didn't use Linux regularly, or enough to formulate the opinion, what I am saying is that clearly the user suspects that the only merit which Linux users find in their OS is that it is, on some level, better than Microsoft. Let me be one of the many who I'm sure have already said, I don't use BSD cause I love Unix, and I don't use Linux because I hate Windows. I use Linux because I love Linux. If you feel that my love for Linux is somehow going to skew my views within this article, I ask that you go back to the title and reread that part, because from here on in I'm not going to argue why you should use Linux, but why you shouldn't.

Point number one: You should not use Linux if you're not willing to use Linux. I'm very big on this issue alone, because I feel that most of the Linux reviews I read, positive and negative are written by people who are very unwilling to use Linux. Linux is NOT Windows, nor is it *BSD, nor is it BeOS, nor is it Mac OS X, nor is it QNX. I think when most people hear that Linux can replace Windows they automatically think it's going to be just like Windows. Let me put it to everyone this way. If you were to ask me as a Linux user why I use Linux, would I go on about how easy it is to use? Would I go on about how there's a wizard for everything? How all my hardware is auto-detected and I never have to worry about anything ever? No. The reason I use Linux is the same reason anyone who uses Linux does so, because Linux offers them something no other OS does. If I could tell anyone what Linux would offer them that no other OS does, I'd probably be working for RedHat sales department, but I can't. I can't because Linux offers something different for everyone who uses it, but that is, in the end, why they use it. So for all technical writers who think to do another monotonous Linux vs. Windows article you should probably think first about why you want to see how Linux compares in the first place. What's your problem with Windows that you want Linux to fix? Does it fix that problem? If Linux was the perfect OS for everyone, everyone would use it, and the same goes for Windows and any other OS for that matter.

SecretMethod70 · 05-01-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Why Linux is not for You, Part 2

Point number two: You should not use Linux if you want to do everything Windows users can do. Want a platform that has hardware accelerated drivers for every card that supports such a thing? Want a platform that plays every "PC" game you buy at EB? If you answered yes to either of these questions Linux is not for you. When a couple of my friends have asked me, "If I get Linux will I be able to play all the Games I play on Windows?" My answer is always "No, but there are games for Linux, and there will probably be more in the future." So what am I saying when I give them that answer... what I'm really saying is that Games aren't important to me, and I could care less if Linux is going to run the latest and greatest games because I could care less about the latest and greatest games. Does that mean Linux has no entertainment value? No. I can easily play Unreal Tournament 2003, Counter-Strike (Using Wine or WineX), and lots of other games both native and non-native to Linux. Unlike users who ask me this question though, I don't use my computer primarily for games. Games are the thing I do when I don't feel I have anything more important to do and know I can kill some of my free time. Games are my answer to what would normally be either naturally induced or laziness induced boredom. So why should you switch to Linux if you want to play all the latest and greatest games? You shouldn't; The same thing goes for any application which truly doesn't have a Linux alternative. That doesn't mean you can't support the idea of such a thing on Linux. I had a friend who was Windows only for some time and played tons of games, he was just as happy to see Quake III on Linux as I was. Why? Why Not? Just cause you use Windows for gaming doesn't mean you have to say "Windows is the only platform that should have games, Microsoft and gaming for life!!!"

Point number three: You should not use Linux if you want carefree, but you probably shouldn't use Windows either. One of the greatest arguments by technical writers, newbies, or first time Linux attempters is that Linux is not as easy and as care free when it comes to installing and maintaining. The major argument by Linux users is, "yes it is just as easy, you just don't know how to get it that way." Bad argument? I think not. Most Linux distributions that aim for desktop usage are just as easy to install as Windows, at least with the right hardware. Most versions of Windows aimed at desktop usage are just as easy to install as Linux, at least with the right hardware. I'm sure you all recall the long article written by the "technical writer" who tried to get Linux working on some legacy hardware that Windows was having trouble with and then complained because Linux couldn't do it. Well... like I said in point number one. Why were you switching to Linux in the first place? Did it fix that? In this case, it didn't, however, in another case it may have, and in yet another case it also may have not. There's no mystery to why some stuff works and why other stuff doesn't. Hardware works when A) There's a driver to use for it and B) There's a good driver to use for it. If you don't have a driver for it, don't expect it to work, no matter what OS you are on, and yes, using a generic driver on Windows is still a driver, which leads me to my second point. If you don't have a good driver, don't expect it to work completely, or all the time. One of my professors the other day mentioned that the image we were seeing on the TV was of poor quality because the computer he was using to display the image on there was using generic video drivers and could not get more than 16-bit color. So why do some people expect Linux to auto-detect hardware it doesn't have drivers for? Or auto-detect hardware with poor drivers or incomplete drivers. Certainly there are cases where there is a driver for it and it doesn't auto-detect, but there are also cases of this on Windows. I know that there are cases of this on windows cause I've used it, and have it on my system right now. What version you say? Windows 2000... So now I hear some Microsoft junkie saying "Well you shouldn't use Windows 2000, it has some poor driver support compared to Windows XP." And I say to them they shouldn't use Linux 2.4, it has poor driver support compared to Linux 2.5. Fact of the matter is newer versions of Linux will have better support and more support for hardware the same way newer versions of Windows will have. Granted 2.5 isn't considered "stable," but it doesn't change the issue of recent software having more support than it's predecessor.

Point number three continued: Updating Linux is more time consuming and in some ways more difficult than updating windows. First off, let's be clear that Linux as a piece of software is just a kernel, so as most Linux users are familiar with, updating it causes you to have to recompile that kernel, unless someone else compiles it for you and you simply put it on there. Either way, the same process has to be done with a Windows kernel, it's simply that the user may not see this because A) Microsoft doesn't really update or overhaul the kernel until they have a completely new version and B) The minor changes they do make are mostly distributed in upgrades where users don't know what it's fixing anyway. Users do one thing in windows to upgrade; that is of course to click a button that says "upgrade." Some Linux distributions make this possible. As we all know Debian's apt-get is great for upgrading and installing new software, and other so-called "desktop distributions" have their own method of automatically downloading necessary packages and installing them. So yes, Linux can just as quickly add new software and kernel as Windows, it just usually doesn't. You could load my Linux desktop with 1000s of buttons that all say "upgrade" and I'd avoid every one with a passion, why? Because I want to upgrade my system the way I want to. I want to know what I'm putting in, where I'm putting it, and why I'm putting it there. This is something I can do with Windows to some extent, but not fully, and particularly not on a kernel level. So when I update my Linux system it is quite often more time consuming than when I update Windows, but I wouldn't give that up for the world, because I'm in control, not an upgrade application.

SecretMethod70 · 05-01-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Why Linux is not for You, Part 3

Remember that different does not mean the same as difficult. There was a time when my now 50+ year old aunt memorized DOS commands because she needed to in order to complete her job. Today she calls me when her "e-mail appears to freeze," because she was unaware that downloading an e-mail with a 9MB attachment on her 56K dialup would take that long, and during that time the progress bar for "retrieving e-mail" would not move. Did she know enough to telnet into her pop3 server, give it the necessary commands and figure out the size of the e-mail with attachments? Furthermore, did she know how to delete that e-mail using telnet, had she decided she didn't really needed it and would only be a waste of time? I don't think she knew any of this, that doesn't mean what I did was difficult, she just didn't know how to do it, the same way my mother who 2 years ago didn't know how to use a computer didn't know how to download Yahoo Messenger on Windows. She didn't even know how to get to the blunt of her applications (by "get to" I mean click the start menu and go to programs). Conclusion: Anything you've never seen before is difficult, no matter how intuitive or how many failsafes have been protected by sticking logical messages to the user inside the code. Just because we know that Linux has a different method of doing things, doesn't mean it has a difficult one.

Point number Four: You should not use Linux if you're trying to destroy Microsoft. Let me say that again for all of you analysts, technical writers, Linux "companies", and supporters of this so called revolution.

Linux is not here to destroy Microsoft. It's simply not. Remember what the number one Linux developer of all time said: "... just a hobby, won't be anything big and professional ..." If you ask me, the goal of Linux is not made by RedHat, SuSE, IBM, or even Linus himself. The goal of Linux is made up in the mind of the user you're talking to, and their goal may be very different from yours. I've seen so many people say that the goal of Linux is now to take on the desktop, mainly Linux desktop developers and hardcore Linux desktop users. If you're going to try and speak for an Operating System you should probably try to at least understand that the goals you're talking about are not that piece of software's, nor are they everyone who uses that piece of software, but they are yours, and quite possibly yours alone. Granted that if a distribution is going to "take down Redmond," it will most likely have to mimic Redmond enough that users can migrate to it without noticing any difference, but who's to say that's what Linux users want. I'd love to see the day when I can walk in and buy Linux on a computer at Best Buy or CompUSA, but I'd never actually buy one. I'd never buy one because I know the Linux I'm getting on that system is probably so much like Windows that it's not even recognizable as Linux. So why do we have this outstanding number of people in the Linux community saying Linux is going to destroy Microsoft and that the number one goal of Linux now must be the desktop? We don't. Most of the people who write this jibber-jabber are Microsoft users who feel the goal of Linux SHOULD be to replace Microsoft. Another large majority are people who support or work in companies which produce software and Linux distributions that are trying to replace Microsoft. Lastly, the ones that don't fall into the first few categories are the ones like me. We say Linux is going to destroy Microsoft cause it is. Not because we want it to, not even cause we really care if it does. Sure I wouldn't mind seeing people using Open Source Software and having products that are backed as much by the people who make them as the people who sell them, but hands down it's not my number one goal. If it sounds selfish to say that I could really care less if Joe Blow is able to, or wants to run Linux, then so be it. The fact is, I really only care if I'm able to do everything I want on Linux, and the fact is, I can.

Being ABLE to do stuff on Linux doesn't necessarily mean to me that there's a software application to do it, or that it's already been done on my system. Being ABLE to do stuff on Linux is exactly what it says, being able to. At the moment, I could modify my kernel source code to support hardware I want it to support, I could rewrite the memory manager, I could add my own system calls. I could do lots of stuff and to be perfectly modest about it I can really do ANYTHING on Linux. In my opinion, this is what Linux is all about. I know there are many other Operating Systems out there that are open source and community driven, but there's something about Linux as a piece of software and as a community that just holds me to it. And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with my Operating System of choice being referred to as a "religion" as it sometimes is. I don't care if your Operating System is technically better, if it has better games, more carefree installs and upgrades... I don't care if your OS makes it quicker for you to do what you want to do. What I do care about is that Linux is the right OS for me and the OS that best fits my needs. If my needs change and the OS fails to adapt, I'll either adapt it myself, or change the OS I use, but until then Linux is far from what's right for everyone, and I could care less, because it's what's right for me.

SecretMethod70 · 05-01-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Why Linux is not for You, Part 4

I'd like to conclude by saying that I realize a lot of my points seem to follow similar lines, they are almost sub points of one another. So if the article seemed a bit redundant at times, I do apologize. I feel as though these points, although pretty much all along the same line of thought are separate and simply tie in to each other very well. The ability and desire to use Linux as an OS requires that you have the ability and desire to learn it as your OS, and this would assume you are able to upgrade, install, and entertain yourself etc. Most people lack the desire to use Linux and therefore end up simply as people with the desire NOT to use windows, so they move to Linux very halfheartedly (See point #1).

Secondly I'd like to just respond to some of the obvious comments that I'll probably get from Windows users and Linux users alike.

-- If everyone thought like the guy who wrote this article, Linux would go no where. He makes it clear that he really only cares that it fits him and as long as that's done and over with Linux is the best OS in his eyes.

Apparently whoever might say this hasn't read what I've said good enough. In the end I do summarize by saying I use Linux because it does what I want it to do, and I could really care less if it appeals to Joe Blow desktop users, but throughout I make it very clear that I'm not the only Linux user, and that most Linux users seem to have a similar line of thought. Not so much that we should just abandon the end user and tell them to RTFM, but the fact is that Linux wasn't created to satisfy the end user, the developer, or anyone really. It was created to satisfy the intellectual curiosity of Linus Torvalds. Where it expanded to after that it did so not by saying "We need to make this so that Joe Blow can use it." but by saying "We need to make this so that we can use it." After all, very few Linux Open Source Software developers don't use Linux, if any, and by that I mean, on the initial level, almost all software we use on Linux was probably started by someone saying "I wish I had that." not "I wish you had that."

-- You said it yourself that "Linux will destroy Microsoft." So how does this make you any different from someone who tells everyone else to get on the Linux bandwagon cause it's so much better than the Windows one?

Saying that Linux will destroy Microsoft doesn't mean that I think Linux is better in every aspect. I do firmly believe Linux COULD be better in every aspect, and this is solely because of it's Open Source model. I realize right now, however, that Linux doesn't do everything everyone wants, but I refuse to say that it CAN'T do that stuff. Linux destroying Microsoft is a consequence of where we know Linux is going in the next ten years having already seen where it's gone in the last ten. Linux development has been almost exponential and there are tons of new and exciting technologies out there that not only represent the power of it as an OS, but the power of it as a development platform. Think about AA lib... I remember programs that converted images to ASCII after a long "render" time.... this thing converts images to ASCII at lightning speeds, so fast that you're able to play video games and watch movies in text only with some not so low but not so high definition. Take a couple steps back and you're sure to be impressed. I've been using Linux since Kernel 1.1 -- What I've seen Linux do since that time I think it would have taken Microsoft triple that time to do on Windows. The problem is that Linux developers can't stop here, and I know they won't. What we see right now is a trend to mimic Windows. You may recall an article recently on OSnews that claimed in order for Linux to make any sort of an impact developers would need to contribute to the "great good." The author said that the overall necessity was to get developers to join onto projects which already had the blunt of the work done but lacked "perfection." I disagree with this completely, because I think it's better that Linux developers constantly think of new ways to do things. For example, I don't think that an environment with menus, icons, and windows is the only and best Graphical User Environment. Mimicking what we already have is good enough to convince people we can do as good, but I think we can do better. And in order to do better we need developers who are willing to make new applications with innovative ideas and quite possibly completely never before seen methods of doing whatever users want to do on the computer. This is also why I'm a big supporter of projects like DirectFB which aims to create a new method (with many new features to) for displaying graphics on Linux systems.

SecretMethod70 · 05-01-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Why Linux is not for You, Part 5

-- Does this guy have something against technical writers, analysts, and Linux companies. It seems that all he's doing is attacking people who have said Linux is bad, what makes this guy different from any other Linux zealot?

Technical Writers, Analysts, and Linux companies don't necessarily give off the right image of Linux... here's why. Technical Writers are quick to make the Linux vs. Windows comparison and say that in terms of desktop usage Linux loses, in terms of software support Linux loses, in terms of hardware support Linux loses. This is a bad assumption to make, because there are thousands of applications I can compile on Linux that don't have equivalents in windows, and it's really not the other way around. Developers have worked hard at making alternatives to Windows software on Linux sometimes with exactly the same features, sometimes with some missing but other added that the Windows counterpart doesn't have. I prefer Open Office to MS Windows, not just cause it's free, but because it seems less obtrusive and obnoxious. I prefer GIMP to Photoshop, I feel it has a cleaner interface with a much more direct method of doing what I want when I want. However, many will argue that GIMP is worse than Photoshop and OO.o is worse than Word. I don't think there's a such thing as "worse." It's really all about user preference, and what some people see as lack of features, others see as the removal of unnecessary features. Is it really necessary to have a "shadow effect" filter in Photoshop when the same thing can be done using layers, blurring, and opacity settings? Analysts are just as quick to jump on the Linux vs. Windows bandwagon but in a much more market share sense. They'll say Linux is doubling in server sales while Windows is staying the same, only growing a little, or in some cases declining a little or a lot. I don't like this as a representation of the quality of Linux, which is often how it's used. Too many people are quick to associate market share with how well the product is, and we all know that such a thing is not the case. Also, it's a pain to see a company say that Linux is growing in the server market but making not so large moves in the Desktop market. It's not just a pain because some of these numbers are largely inaccurate, but because we begin to associate the entire OS with a single function, rather than the usually specialized distributions+versions of the OS.

We don't say that Windows Datacenter Server isn't used as frequently on Desktop systems as Windows XP... that would just be inane. Yet analysts are quick to make no distinctions between Linux which is optimized and configured for server environments and that of Desktops. You want to see movement, divide Linux up into server Linux distributions and desktop Linux distributions, see which ones have made the greater sales over time. Increasing the amount of servers which use Linux from 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 might look like a big increase, but percentage wise increasing the number of desktop Linux systems from 1 to 2 is just as big a leap. I don't expect desktop Linux sales to match that of Server sales even in percentages, but I don't feel that people who watch it's sales accurately represent the growth it's making in the desktop market. As far as Linux companies go. I feel they are the major backers of "Linux must replace Windows." Because they'll be the ones that not only make the money off of it, but get the most out of the "I told you so" factor. Do I think Linux has the ability to replace it? Yes, I've already said that, but do I think we should try to express it as the number one goal of a community? No. I don't think it should be expressed as a goal at all, it's strictly business when you're talking about who's running what. What we should be talking about is not who or how many are running what but why or where they are running what, that way we are better able to gauge Linux in terms of what we know it can do and what we know it can't do, instead of gauging it in terms of "can it replace windows."

Lastly, I'm certain there will be people who disagree with my views, opinions, and objections to Linux usage and representation, but I think it's more important that when people use Linux they use it because it works and does what they want it to do than if people use it just cause someone said it's better than Windows. It's not so much better than Windows than it is different, and different doesn't mean more difficult, less difficult, better, or worse. It simply means that if you're expecting to move from Windows to Linux and feel just like you're using Windows, you shouldn't be moving to Linux in the first place. Sadly, these are the type of "moves" which represent the mass amounts of inaccurate Linux reviews and editorials which constantly say, "Is Linux Ready for the Desktop?" Because in the end, yes, Linux is ready for the Desktop... I just don't think the vast majority of people are ready for Linux.

( Original Story URL at http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3297 )

I'll comment on this later sometime. Right now I need to eat dinner, do homework, and make up for lost sleep. Do I agree with this 100%? No, but it makes some very good points.

wg2000 · 05-01-2003, 03:39 PM

Quote:

We don't say that Windows Datacenter Server isn't used as frequently on Desktop systems as Windows XP..

Uhhhh, that's probably because Datacenter must be installed by Microsoft -- it's custom built and tuned for the server that it's on. Not likely to happen for a desktop

Now, I have seen Win2k Advanced Server installed on plenty of desktops, mainly by warez kiddies who think they're being "cool".

chodarama · 05-01-2003, 03:56 PM

The classic "It's the user's fault" argument. Which I completely agree with. It is the user's responsibility to understand what the hell they're getting into. Unless, however, they are paying Redhat or similar CO to take care of them. "Caveot Emptor." Great article.

juanvaldes · 05-01-2003, 06:16 PM

I think this is a place where a link is justified....

JStrider · 05-01-2003, 06:36 PM

well i just set my system up so i can easily switch between windows and linux... not dual boot but close...

linux is different... its harder to use... why am i trying it out... so i can... to see what it is... i had never used it for any amount of time before... and wanted to see what its like...

what have i found... its neet... a combination of gui and command line stuff... will i stick with it... maybe... i dont know yet...

Spungfoo · 05-01-2003, 07:03 PM

I pretty much have no practical use for it, I just want to see what it's all about - knowledge for the sake of knowledge, ya know. I'm not planning on doing a full switchover, I just want to play around with it for awhile - it'll give me something to do over the summer while I'm not in school

billandted · 05-01-2003, 08:16 PM

I'll never be a Linux man, for the basic fact I play games, and Linux != gaming.

"...and Counter-Strike (Using Wine or WineX)"

Something about running an OS to run an emulator for another OS that seems pointless. Until Linux gets better hardware support and software support, I'll be happy with 5-month reformats, thank you very much.

Krycheck · 05-01-2003, 08:25 PM

Wow, after reading that I don't think I found anything I can really dissagree on (or remember

).

Why do I use linux? Cause I want to control my OS. Not my OS controlling me!

Quote:

Something about running an OS to run an emulator for another OS that seems pointless.

Wine: Wine IsN't a Emulator. I forget the exact explaination but Wine isn't a emulator.

juanvaldes · 05-01-2003, 10:34 PM

Wine Is NOT Emulation

frenik · 05-02-2003, 11:07 AM

Very good article. I've run Windows as long as I can remember, but for the past few months I've had a Linux install on a separate partition (Redhat until a few weeks ago, Slackware now), and am now in the saving money phase of building a new computer to run strictly linux. I'd have to say Windows is my primary OS, as I play games a lot, so I just leave my computer in Windows. I use linux when I feel like playing around with it, really. I'm still in the experimental, hacking around with it phase.

I agree with the points the author was trying to make. People use what OS is right for them, and there is no point in trying to compare them directly, as they serve seperate functions. It was overall a good article.

Fallon · 05-02-2003, 02:49 PM

Very good article. His points are quite true, to an extent. I do agree with a lot he has to say though.

poof · 05-03-2003, 07:06 AM

I didn't read the article, might do it some other time. I just went through the tedious task of removing RedHat 9.0 from my Thinkpad. What a pain in the ass.

Next time I play with an alternative OS, it will be on a 'puter I can angrily kick, then throw into the recycle bin.

I am not a programmer, (but I am pro grammer, stupid fark reference. It won't happen again), and Linux requires skills or patience I don't have. I went to Windows after DOS 6.0 mandated it. I have not typed a .bat or anything since. Maybe lazy, or pragmatic, but I just want to turn on the machine and see it work.

MSoft is annoying, I will deal with that. When trying to set my screen resolution requires compiling? Never mind.
When gurus perfect the open source I will get back on the bandwagon, (I used to beta IBM's OS2 in the 80's before it was Windows). Then, you will be too expensive, and another arrogant "I am the best, you need me, I was counter culture, but now I am the way" elitists.

Right now, I just want to point and click, and drag and drop, and get pics of our grandchildren.

I am not as 'puter savvy as the rest of you, but, it too damn long to get redhat off my Thinkpad! It seems open source wants to take over your computer also.

bullgoose · 05-03-2003, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by poof
I didn't read the article, might do it some other time. I just went through the tedious task of removing RedHat 9.0 from my Thinkpad. What a pain in the ass.

Next time I play with an alternative OS, it will be on a 'puter I can angrily kick, then throw into the recycle bin.

I am not a programmer, (but I am pro grammer, stupid fark reference. It won't happen again), and Linux requires skills or patience I don't have. I went to Windows after DOS 6.0 mandated it. I have not typed a .bat or anything since. Maybe lazy, or pragmatic, but I just want to turn on the machine and see it work.

MSoft is annoying, I will deal with that. When trying to set my screen resolution requires compiling? Never mind.
When gurus perfect the open source I will get back on the bandwagon, (I used to beta IBM's OS2 in the 80's before it was Windows). Then, you will be too expensive, and another arrogant "I am the best, you need me, I was counter culture, but now I am the way" elitists.

Right now, I just want to point and click, and drag and drop, and get pics of our grandchildren.

I am not as 'puter savvy as the rest of you, but, it too damn long to get redhat off my Thinkpad! It seems open source wants to take over your computer also.

It might be best to try a distro like Knoppix; Knoppix runs off a CD-ROM; you don't do ANY installation, but all the applications WORK! It's based on Debian Linux (My personal favorite) but since you don't install it, there's nothing to remove if you decide you don't care for Linux; it sure takes the pain out of finding out if Linux is for you.

sngx1275 · 05-03-2003, 06:16 PM

Of course he can argue: Linux does what I want it and need it to do.
Well thats great, no one can really argue with that.
MacOS 7 on a Performa 550 will do what I need it to do. It can get on the internet, play simple games, run an office app, and print. And you can even put photoshop on there and have it do work with images.

My point is that he doesn't make a point that isn't obvious.

smartinibob · 05-03-2003, 07:03 PM

Great article ! I use BEos because it is different . I have fun with Linux , BEos and Windows .They each have something I like .

tallent56 · 05-04-2003, 08:51 AM

tried linux..but im just used to windows

poof · 05-04-2003, 10:42 AM

Bullgoose wrote, It's based on Debian Linux (My personal favorite).

I have read good things about Debian. After I go through my post Redhat anger management sessions, I might give that a try.

Ya know something, computers don't explode, don't take up much space, and don't leave parts scattered all over the floor when they stop working. Just format and try again. Whats a few hours of wasted time. If it works, it wasn't wasted. If I learn from it, it wasn't wasted. I am rambling, must go to session. Redhat bad, Poof good, Redhat bad, Poof good.

bullgoose · 05-04-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by poof
Bullgoose wrote, It's based on Debian Linux (My personal favorite).

I have read good things about Debian. After I go through my post Redhat anger management sessions, I might give that a try.

Ya know something, computers don't explode, don't take up much space, and don't leave parts scattered all over the floor when they stop working. Just format and try again. Whats a few hours of wasted time. If it works, it wasn't wasted. If I learn from it, it wasn't wasted. I am rambling, must go to session. Redhat bad, Poof good, Redhat bad, Poof good.

PLEASE DON'T TRY DEBIAN; the reason I wrote that in caps is very simple; if you had trouble with Redhat, you will be completely put off Linux forever if you try to install Debian.
I'm a Linux advocate; I use Linux on a daily basis, and I love it; that being said, it took roughly 3 years of almost weekly re-installs, endless Google searches, printing REAMS of how-to's and generally tearing my hair out. I'm 56; I bought my first "modern" computer about 5 years ago; one of my kids has it now; I build my own at this point. Sometime about 3-1/2 years ago, I had a real "WIN-moment"; I got the blue screen of death for about the 200th time in one day, so I fired up a search engine and went looking for an alternative, that's when I first heard of Linux; I have been from pillar to post with Linux; right now, I quad-boot WIN98 (and I rarely boot it) Redhat 9.0, Debian 3.0 "testing", and Knoppix 3.2 (more to come about Knoppix).
The reason I suggested you NOT try Debian is the installer. It's a fact of life in the Linux community that Debian is really difficult to install; there's various reasons for this, but suffice it to say that Debian is not newbie-friendly. To get a handle on Linux, I am suggesting that folks who aren't familiar with Linux try Knoppix. This gets tricky now; the lineage of Knoppix is kinda like tracing a European royal family's lineage, if you get my drift.
Knoppix is a German distribution that's based on Debian GNU Linux; this is a very good thing; what's even better is this- YOU DO NOT HAVE TO INSTALL IT ON YOUR HARD DRIVE TO USE IT! That's right, it runs off your CD-ROM drive, it has absoloutly no effect on any installed operating systems (read: any Windows version). It only requires that your computer be able to boot from a CD-ROM (most computers built since '98 can, if yours can't, there are alternatives.) My point is, there is no commitment whatsoever; if you don't like Linux, you just remove the CD-ROM disc and go your merry way, if you DO like it, there's many options at that point.
Now the kicker; Knoppix is FREE, it can be downloaded and burned to a CDR for no cost at all, except for the time it takes. If you don't feel that you can do that, PM me and I'll see what I can do.
Just don't write off Linux because of a bad experience; it takes time, but it's one helluva lot easier now then when I started. Give it a chance.

zztzed · 05-04-2003, 11:34 AM

The way WINE works is by trapping Win32 API calls and replacing them with calls to its own versions of the Win32 libraries -- which is why its emulation is incomplete a lot of the time, and why it's recommended that you copy DLLs from an existing Windows installation for some things.

Of course, if you have an existing Windows installation to copy DLLs from, I figure you might as well use it for whatever it is you were going to use WINE for.

poof · 05-04-2003, 11:41 AM

bullgoose, Thanks. I appreciate your info.

spankthru · 05-04-2003, 08:12 PM

I like linux. Other than the fact I can't get my crappy winmodem to work, it's great. mandrake is my current distro, but it seems too newbie friendly. I would love something that would be a bit of a tougher install, just for kicks.

Antagony · 05-04-2003, 11:42 PM

I'm a dual-booter. I can't live without my games.

And actually, I've been stuck in Windows lately because the Linux kernel doesn't currently support my AGP chipset. However, the pre-patch does, and I'm going to try it out later this week, so we'll see.

rubicon · 05-05-2003, 08:59 AM

I don't understand why people keep thinking Linux is a cure-all for Windows. Linux, like any other OS, is another choice with its pros and cons.

Choosing Linux for the desktop is similar to deciding if you want to run MacOS, Windows 9x, 2000, or DOS. If your current OS doesn't do it for you, then make a switch to whatever you want. Otherwise, stick with what you know.

IMO, Linux is an OS for those folks needing/wanting the power of UNIX. It's meant for power-users that know what they're doing.

Hell, 90% of Windows users have no clue about disk partitions and file systems let alone what Services do what. I suppose that's my criteria with Linux - if you know everything there is about Windows and still need more, then make the switch. If you still can't figure out how to partition your hard drive, forget it.

Linux needs to be repositioned in the marketplace. It's an alternative, not a replacement.

Latch · 05-05-2003, 08:34 PM

I used only Linux for around a year (RH7.3/RH8). It ran great for me, and taught me a lot. I didn't play games, so that wasn't a problem for me. What WAS a problem (and what made me go back to Windows) was that I lost all my settings (in my home dir and /etc) during a backup and reinstall when I got a new machine (stupid CD was bad, but burnt fine). After looking at how much data I had just lost, how many hours of vi-time and google-searching were down the drain, I said "screw it" and went to Windows. Also, Windows has a program to make my DVD-ROM region free (there's no RPC1 ROM out for it yet). I love Linux, and will probably run it in the future. For now though, I'm sticking to windows.

SecretMethod70 · 05-05-2003, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Latch
I used only Linux for around a year (RH7.3/RH8). It ran great for me, and taught me a lot. I didn't play games, so that wasn't a problem for me. What WAS a problem (and what made me go back to Windows) was that I lost all my settings (in my home dir and /etc) during a backup and reinstall when I got a new machine (stupid CD was bad, but burnt fine). After looking at how much data I had just lost, how many hours of vi-time and google-searching were down the drain, I said "screw it" and went to Windows. Also, Windows has a program to make my DVD-ROM region free (there's no RPC1 ROM out for it yet). I love Linux, and will probably run it in the future. For now though, I'm sticking to windows.

Not to say you should use one or the other by any means, but you do realize the same can easily happen in Windows as well and does right?

Let this be a warning to all COMPUTER users in general to always backup important data and do it often.

If running Linux you may want to consider making seperate partitions for /home - this can also help alleviate the risks involved.

Latch · 05-06-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecretMethod70
Not to say you should use one or the other by any means, but you do realize the same can easily happen in Windows as well and does right?

Let this be a warning to all COMPUTER users in general to always backup important data and do it often.

If running Linux you may want to consider making seperate partitions for /home - this can also help alleviate the risks involved.

I know it can happen in Windows, but because I've grown up with MS stuff driven into my skull, it's a lot easier (and quicker) to restore back to "normal".

Running /home in a seperate partition. I can't believe I didn't even think of that, what an idiot. I'll probably do the same w/ /etc. Thanks for pointing out an obvious suggestion!

vox_rox · 11-29-2004, 01:55 PM

I read the article and I agree entirely with the bulk of it. Perhaps I should have stopped at the article itself, but Ijust had to read a bunch of the replies, many of which tried to argue for/against Linux/Windows almost as if they had not read the article.

Should you switch to Linux? The answer is yes, and the naswer is no. It's that simple.

For me, I have been playing with linux for sometime, even used it for a whole semester when my dual boot system made a left turn and I was unable toboot into windows. For that whole semester, I used Mandrake Linus to read my mail, to research (mostly using my browser), and word processing. It worked not the same, but MUCH better than windows did.

Now I'm making the switch to Linux because 1) I'm a geek, 2) Linux does what I need it to do, and eloquently as well and 3) I am tired of the direction that Microsoft is taking with licensing and DRM and I want am alternative.

But, clearly, I am going into this with my eyes poen and my expecatations grounded in past experience. If everyone did this, I would not be surprised to see the desktpo share for Linux to be closer to 10 per cent, ubt too many people want to leave Microsoft more than they want to move to Linux, just as was said in the article, and this will lead to disappointment 99 times out of 100. A shame, as most of those users would probably embrace Linux under different circumstances.

Still, Linux is here to stay, and where it goes from here depends entirely on who uses it, what it's used for, and whether or not it's recognized for it's potential rather than the state of Linux today.

It could go far... or not...

Pierre

Latch · 11-29-2004, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latch

I used only Linux for around a year (RH7.3/RH8). It ran great for me, and taught me a lot. I didn't play games, so that wasn't a problem for me. What WAS a problem (and what made me go back to Windows) was that I lost all my settings (in my home dir and /etc) during a backup and reinstall when I got a new machine (stupid CD was bad, but burnt fine). After looking at how much data I had just lost, how many hours of vi-time and google-searching were down the drain, I said "screw it" and went to Windows. Also, Windows has a program to make my DVD-ROM region free (there's no RPC1 ROM out for it yet). I love Linux, and will probably run it in the future. For now though, I'm sticking to windows.

ahahahaha.. a year and a half ago I wrote that.. forgot I even had... man, how times change...

bendsley · 11-29-2004, 02:52 PM

A lot of games being released are having linux binaries written for them. Such as Quake, Half-life 2, CounterStrike, etc. There are many games being ported. They require you buy the cd, just as you would for a windows machines, and then they tell you how to get the game running under linux. It's not hard, just different.

I dont play many games, but I do a couple, and play them on both windows and linux.

I have 1 machine that runs windows xp pro. The other machines, 6 or so run debian linux. I use linux because I like it. I think it's more configurable than windows and thats one of my many reasons for running it. Windows however does have its vantage points. I'm not going to get into the windows vs. linux ordeal here. If you want to try linux, go for it, start out slow and get more and more in depth.

Latch and myself are both linux gurus and I certainly am and sure he probably is too, willing to help with questions you might have regarding linux. Please however try to find the answer yourself first, because there is a plethora of info. about linux out there.

Latch · 11-29-2004, 10:12 PM

Yeah, I'll help out with any questions.. and there are other linux people out there who can help too.. there are quite a few of us around.

Just don't ask bendsley about Debian.. then we'll never shut him up

Xirax · 11-29-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bendsley

A lot of games being released are having linux binaries written for them. Such as Quake, Half-life 2, CounterStrike, etc. There are many games being ported. They require you buy the cd, just as you would for a windows machines, and then they tell you how to get the game running under linux. It's not hard, just different.

It's probably important to note that Half-Life 2 and counterstrike don't work natively, only via WINE or now Cedega. id software has always had good support for linux. Quake3 ran beautifully, and Doom3 support is getting much better. Epic is arguably better, including support out of the box for UT2004. There's also Bioware with Neverwinter Nights. I always try and support companies that do provide a native Linux client. It can take some work to get games going sometimes...it's not always easy depending on your system.

I also keep Windows around on another partition for games that won't work in Linux. For day to day stuff though, it's Linux or nothing. I'm much more productive in it anyhow. Virtual desktops are my poison

That's the beautiful thing about Linux. You can configure most anything to your liking, instead of conforming to somebody else's idea of a suitable working environment.

The best advice I have to give would also be to take it slow, research, and ask questions. Most Linux users started off in the same place, so they're sympathetic of any beginner's situation. Plus, you might learn skills that will help down the road with other issues. There may be those that feel high and mighty (RTFM, anyone?), but they can safely be ignored...there's many other friendlier users who will be quite willing to help. It really is a great community.

CBlend · 12-24-2005, 06:06 PM

I read the article on osnews. I don't use (or plan to use) Linux, but it was an interesting read since I keep seeing Linux mentioned in technical articles and know little about it. Thanks.

05-01-2003, 06:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	well i just set my system up so i can easily switch between windows and linux... not dual boot but close... linux is different... its harder to use... why am i trying it out... so i can... to see what it is... i had never used it for any amount of time before... and wanted to see what its like... what have i found... its neet... a combination of gui and command line stuff... will i stick with it... maybe... i dont know yet... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

05-01-2003, 08:16 PM	#11 (permalink)
billandted Upright Location: Inebriation	I'll never be a Linux man, for the basic fact I play games, and Linux != gaming. "...and Counter-Strike (Using Wine or WineX)" Something about running an OS to run an emulator for another OS that seems pointless. Until Linux gets better hardware support and software support, I'll be happy with 5-month reformats, thank you very much. __________________ On a scale of one to ten, I am soooo drunk.

05-02-2003, 11:07 AM	#14 (permalink)
frenik Crazy Location: blah	Very good article. I've run Windows as long as I can remember, but for the past few months I've had a Linux install on a separate partition (Redhat until a few weeks ago, Slackware now), and am now in the saving money phase of building a new computer to run strictly linux. I'd have to say Windows is my primary OS, as I play games a lot, so I just leave my computer in Windows. I use linux when I feel like playing around with it, really. I'm still in the experimental, hacking around with it phase. I agree with the points the author was trying to make. People use what OS is right for them, and there is no point in trying to compare them directly, as they serve seperate functions. It was overall a good article. __________________ I don't know what's worse, that I dreamed about putting my ex-girlfriend in a woodchipper, or that I woke up with an erection. - jim norton

05-04-2003, 10:42 AM	#21 (permalink)
poof Psycho	<b>Bullgoose</b> wrote, <i>It's based on Debian Linux (My personal favorite)</i>. I have read good things about Debian. After I go through my post Redhat anger management sessions, I might give that a try. Ya know something, computers don't explode, don't take up much space, and don't leave parts scattered all over the floor when they stop working. Just format and try again. Whats a few hours of wasted time. If it works, it wasn't wasted. If I learn from it, it wasn't wasted. I am rambling, must go to session. Redhat bad, Poof good, Redhat bad, Poof good.

05-04-2003, 11:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
zztzed Tilted Location: Here and there	The way WINE works is by trapping Win32 API calls and replacing them with calls to its own versions of the Win32 libraries -- which is why its emulation is incomplete a lot of the time, and why it's recommended that you copy DLLs from an existing Windows installation for some things. Of course, if you have an existing Windows installation to copy DLLs from, I figure you might as well use it for whatever it is you were going to use WINE for. __________________ "It seemed to me that if humanoids eat chicken, then obviously they'd eat their own species, otherwise they'd just be picking on the chickens."

05-01-2003, 03:56 PM	#7 (permalink)
chodarama Insane Location: a van, down by the river	The classic "It's the user's fault" argument. Which I completely agree with. It is the user's responsibility to understand what the hell they're getting into. Unless, however, they are paying Redhat or similar CO to take care of them. "Caveot Emptor." Great article.

05-01-2003, 06:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
juanvaldes Banned Location: shittown, CA	I think this is a place where a link is justified....

05-01-2003, 07:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
Spungfoo Insane Location: Pittsburgh, PA	I pretty much have no practical use for it, I just want to see what it's all about - knowledge for the sake of knowledge, ya know. I'm not planning on doing a full switchover, I just want to play around with it for awhile - it'll give me something to do over the summer while I'm not in school

05-01-2003, 10:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
juanvaldes Banned Location: shittown, CA	Wine Is NOT Emulation

05-02-2003, 02:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	Very good article. His points are quite true, to an extent. I do agree with a lot he has to say though.

05-03-2003, 07:06 AM	#16 (permalink)
poof Psycho	I didn't read the article, might do it some other time. I just went through the tedious task of removing RedHat 9.0 from my Thinkpad. What a pain in the ass. Next time I play with an alternative OS, it will be on a 'puter I can angrily kick, then throw into the recycle bin. I am not a programmer, (but I am pro grammer, stupid fark reference. It won't happen again), and Linux requires skills or patience I don't have. I went to Windows after DOS 6.0 mandated it. I have not typed a .bat or anything since. Maybe lazy, or pragmatic, but I just want to turn on the machine and see it work. MSoft is annoying, I will deal with that. When trying to set my screen resolution requires compiling? Never mind. When gurus perfect the open source I will get back on the bandwagon, (I used to beta IBM's OS2 in the 80's before it was Windows). Then, you will be too expensive, and another arrogant "I am the best, you need me, I was counter culture, but now I am the way" elitists. Right now, I just want to point and click, and drag and drop, and get pics of our grandchildren. I am not as 'puter savvy as the rest of you, but, it too damn long to get redhat off my Thinkpad! It seems open source wants to take over your computer also.

05-03-2003, 06:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
sngx1275 Loser Location: Central Missouri	Of course he can argue: Linux does what I want it and need it to do. Well thats great, no one can really argue with that. MacOS 7 on a Performa 550 will do what I need it to do. It can get on the internet, play simple games, run an office app, and print. And you can even put photoshop on there and have it do work with images. My point is that he doesn't make a point that isn't obvious.

05-03-2003, 07:03 PM	#19 (permalink)
smartinibob Upright	Great article ! I use BEos because it is different . I have fun with Linux , BEos and Windows .They each have something I like .

05-04-2003, 08:51 AM	#20 (permalink)
tallent56 Tilted	tried linux..but im just used to windows

05-04-2003, 11:41 AM	#24 (permalink)
poof Psycho	<b>bullgoose</b>, Thanks. I appreciate your info.

05-04-2003, 08:12 PM	#25 (permalink)
spankthru Banned Location: no trees, fields of wheat	I like linux. Other than the fact I can't get my crappy winmodem to work, it's great. mandrake is my current distro, but it seems <i>too</i> newbie friendly. I would love something that would be a bit of a tougher install, just for kicks.

05-04-2003, 11:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
Antagony Psychopathic Akimbo Action Pirate Location: ...between Christ and Belial.	I'm a dual-booter. I can't live without my games. And actually, I've been stuck in Windows lately because the Linux kernel doesn't currently support my AGP chipset. However, the pre-patch does, and I'm going to try it out later this week, so we'll see. __________________ On the outside I'm jazz, but my soul is rock and roll. Sleep is a waste of time. Join the Insomniac Club. "GYOH GWAH-DAH GREH BLAAA! SROH WIH DIH FLIH RYOHH!!" - The Locust

05-05-2003, 08:59 AM	#27 (permalink)
rubicon Stop. Think. Question. Location: Redondo Beach, CA	I don't understand why people keep thinking Linux is a cure-all for Windows. Linux, like any other OS, is another choice with its pros and cons. Choosing Linux for the desktop is similar to deciding if you want to run MacOS, Windows 9x, 2000, or DOS. If your current OS doesn't do it for you, then make a switch to whatever you want. Otherwise, stick with what you know. IMO, Linux is an OS for those folks needing/wanting the power of UNIX. It's meant for power-users that know what they're doing. Hell, 90% of Windows users have no clue about disk partitions and file systems let alone what Services do what. I suppose that's my criteria with Linux - if you know everything there is about Windows and still need more, then make the switch. If you still can't figure out how to partition your hard drive, forget it. Linux needs to be repositioned in the marketplace. It's an alternative, not a replacement. __________________ How you do anything is how you do everything.

05-05-2003, 08:34 PM	#28 (permalink)
Latch In Your Dreams Location: City of Lights	I used only Linux for around a year (RH7.3/RH8). It ran great for me, and taught me a lot. I didn't play games, so that wasn't a problem for me. What WAS a problem (and what made me go back to Windows) was that I lost all my settings (in my home dir and /etc) during a backup and reinstall when I got a new machine (stupid CD was bad, but burnt fine). After looking at how much data I had just lost, how many hours of vi-time and google-searching were down the drain, I said "screw it" and went to Windows. Also, Windows has a program to make my DVD-ROM region free (there's no RPC1 ROM out for it yet). I love Linux, and will probably run it in the future. For now though, I'm sticking to windows.

11-29-2004, 01:55 PM	#31 (permalink)
vox_rox Psycho Location: Comfy Little Bungalow	I am still amazed I read the article and I agree entirely with the bulk of it. Perhaps I should have stopped at the article itself, but Ijust had to read a bunch of the replies, many of which tried to argue for/against Linux/Windows almost as if they had not read the article. Should you switch to Linux? The answer is yes, and the naswer is no. It's that simple. For me, I have been playing with linux for sometime, even used it for a whole semester when my dual boot system made a left turn and I was unable toboot into windows. For that whole semester, I used Mandrake Linus to read my mail, to research (mostly using my browser), and word processing. It worked not the same, but MUCH better than windows did. Now I'm making the switch to Linux because 1) I'm a geek, 2) Linux does what I need it to do, and eloquently as well and 3) I am tired of the direction that Microsoft is taking with licensing and DRM and I want am alternative. But, clearly, I am going into this with my eyes poen and my expecatations grounded in past experience. If everyone did this, I would not be surprised to see the desktpo share for Linux to be closer to 10 per cent, ubt too many people want to leave Microsoft more than they want to move to Linux, just as was said in the article, and this will lead to disappointment 99 times out of 100. A shame, as most of those users would probably embrace Linux under different circumstances. Still, Linux is here to stay, and where it goes from here depends entirely on who uses it, what it's used for, and whether or not it's recognized for it's potential rather than the state of Linux today. It could go far... or not... Pierre

11-29-2004, 02:52 PM	#33 (permalink)
bendsley Professional Loafer Location: texas	A lot of games being released are having linux binaries written for them. Such as Quake, Half-life 2, CounterStrike, etc. There are many games being ported. They require you buy the cd, just as you would for a windows machines, and then they tell you how to get the game running under linux. It's not hard, just different. I dont play many games, but I do a couple, and play them on both windows and linux. I have 1 machine that runs windows xp pro. The other machines, 6 or so run debian linux. I use linux because I like it. I think it's more configurable than windows and thats one of my many reasons for running it. Windows however does have its vantage points. I'm not going to get into the windows vs. linux ordeal here. If you want to try linux, go for it, start out slow and get more and more in depth. Latch and myself are both linux gurus and I certainly am and sure he probably is too, willing to help with questions you might have regarding linux. Please however try to find the answer yourself first, because there is a plethora of info. about linux out there. __________________ "You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter let him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says, "Who's that?" St. Peter says, "Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane."

11-29-2004, 10:12 PM	#34 (permalink)
Latch In Your Dreams Location: City of Lights	Yeah, I'll help out with any questions.. and there are other linux people out there who can help too.. there are quite a few of us around. Just don't ask bendsley about Debian.. then we'll never shut him up

12-24-2005, 06:06 PM	#36 (permalink)
CBlend Junkie Location: Classified	I read the article on osnews. I don't use (or plan to use) Linux, but it was an interesting read since I keep seeing Linux mentioned in technical articles and know little about it. Thanks.