mrap1

Is it really necessary for a soon to be college graduate to be MCSE certified? Reason I ask is that my school is offering the classes for $385, and I wanted to know if it was worth it? My major is Computer Info Systems, and I'm definitely looking for a career in the tech industry, although not necessarily a help desk type position.

While you're at it, can someone give me some background on what these tests are for? If I know Win 2000 or XP will these classes be easy for me? I need as much info as possible, the websites I've looked at have too much techno babble and don't really address the issues I brought up, so if some one would give me a reply I would really appreciate it.

Thanks

gariig

I'm a recent graduate so take this with a grain of salt. I think they could help, but you will become a "Paper MCSE". This means you have the cert, but you don't have the experience to back it up. However, at $385 that is a STEAL and I would jump all over it. Do you have an internship or Co-op job? That is really the best way of getting a job post graduate.

One piece of advice when job hunting..HARASS them. Just keep calling until you are told you don't have the position. I think that is what got me my new job starting Monday.

Gariig

Konichiwaneko

Good advice on gariig part. Just like a college degree..an msce isn't a free pass but more off a item to make your more noticable.

If you have the money do it, nothing to lose.

What I've always questioned is the fact that people say your make more money with a college degree. The way I see it, if you get a decent job and started saving...4 years adds up to a lot more retirement then the 4 years you lose. Plus the fact you don't have to pay for school. It's argueable now, but in the past I could understand why college was more important.

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mrap1

Its a short term vs long term issue. Yeah in the short run you make more money by not paying for college and going directly into the market. However, unless you have a skill that's in extreme demand the chances of someone getting a good job without a degree are slim. I think the degree really pays off in the later years in life. As you mature and want to move into a managerial type of position, you simply won't get promoted if you don't have a degree.

A seperate reason why I go to college is that I want to learn for learnings sake. I want to know why things happen, and how things happen. And most importantly, college really teaches you how to think and analyze things.

But lets not get away from my original post, what is the test about?

charliex

I find the opposite the more mature in the workplace, the less you need qualifications, your track record becomes way more important than a degree or certificate you earned maybe 10 or more years ago.

its good for CV padding if you don't have a lot of work experience, its also good to learn more.

Konichiwaneko

College teaches you to be a liberal Some people require college, that I can respect, but it didn't work for me. Just like highschool I found what college taught I already knew. I missed 185 days of high school the four years I was there, and my teachers didn't complain. Though my situation maybe unique, with all the homebred geniuses we have now I believe that scenario will be more common. The current cirriculum cannot contain and deal with the amount of information we are exposed too know. We are better off learning and advancing at our own pace.


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The test when I took if last is basic microsoft software familiarity.
There are some intense questions, so be ready for that. I doubt the DOS section is still as prominent, but read up on that.

The question is, how much do you know microsoft wise about their products?

Like in word, what is the template file that holds are your default settings? Though that's probably not going to be in the MCSE, I actually got hired at a job for knowing this answer.

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mrap1

I agree, what you learn in college become pretty much irrelevant after a period of time, however, unless you own your own company or you're a genius most employers will hesitate to promote you to a managerial position if you don't have a degree. I see this where I work all the time. The person is ambitious, has skill, has a desire to lead, but the boss won't promote her because my freind isn't a college graduate.

Konichiwaneko

interesting...you mention you see it all the time, then you say the event occurs to an individual. Maybe it's time to tell her to stop trying every week?

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mrap1

I just used her as an example, remember college teaches you to back up your statements . But seriously if you look at the requirements for any upper level position they require a minimum of a bachelor's degree if not a master's degree.

charliex

It really depends on the type of company, some do have a structure that says only hire or promote people with college degrees, some have an internal promotion style and others only want people with experience. Generally companies equate 5-10 years experience in a compatible field equal to a degree.

As for backing up your statements, I'd hope college also teaches you that its not a good thing to make such a generalization, half the CEO/CTO's I know have no degree and generally are college drop outs, but thats common in my field, its less common in a financial institution for instance.

Basically companies often ask for degrees because its easier to quantify than experience, however after a point experience is a lot easier to prove, the levels of knowledge, references etc, so for people starting out in the work place a degree is a good thing.

If you friend isn't being promoted, has the needed skills, personality and there are openings, perhaps its time to look elsewhere, smart companies know how to handle good employees, degrees or otherwise.

Lets look at an example, I went to google, which I'd say most people would agree is a smart company

Here is the listing for "Business Development Manager"

- Proven experience and strong understanding of the -news/publishing industry and/or web-based content aggregation.
- Proven experience negotiating and closing strategic partnerships.
- Ability to think strategically and creatively.
- Excellent written and oral communication skills.
- Strong organizational/project management skills.
- BA/BS, MBA a plus.

Notice that the degree is the last thing listed and unlike the others is not an actual requirement, the key words in that job advert are "proven experience", now i didn't search all over to find a position that went with what I'm saying, I went straight to google and clicked jobs, and into bizdev, that was the only one there. Granted you could probably go elsewhere and find one that said degree required.

Heres the list for senior purchasing manager

- BS/BA or equivalent in business or related field, MBA a plus.
APICS and/or NAPM certification required.
- 8+ years purchasing management experience in a high quality environment; multi-national company experience preferred.
- Strong knowledge of procurement and purchasing processes, workflow and practices.
- Strong knowledge of technology and IT industry, products and trends.
- Significant experience in contract and IT vendor negotiations required, as well as in-depth interaction with Legal department.
- Excellent verbal and written communication skills.
- Excellent analytical skills and very detail oriented.
- ERP experience a must with Oracle being strongly preferred.
- Excellent PC skills (including Excel, Microsoft Project, Power Point, Visio).
- Ability to create a work environment that is motivating, productive and fun.

This time it lists the degree first, but it also says equivalent experience, but more importantly it goes on to list more experience, so at the end of the day, a degree is good and will help a lot, but you will still need experience too, and equivalent experience will give you both the requirements for most high level jobs.

To me it seems more likely that lower end positions will ask for degrees, since they are looking for people to pay less for, and for that they will want people with less experience.

So for an executive assistant, a PA basically, which is a lower paid job, and arguably less critical, the requirements are

- 3-5 years administrative experience in a fast-paced, high-tech environment.
- College degree: BA or BS.
- Proven mastery of Office applications, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Outlook.
- Interest and experience in using technology to improve work efficiency.
- Interest and experience in interacting with all levels and departments within a company – to include working with several field offices, domestic and international.
- Exceptional written and verbal communication skills.
- Strong organizational skills, detail-oriented, and the ability to handle multiple priorities.

So they are looking for someone with less than the usual 5 years+ equal to a college degree, and a degree is listed as a requirement, with no mention of equivalency.

Of course I only used google, which i suppose could be more laissez-faire in its practices, unlike say a bank, so i looked up a bank job listing, "senior relationship manager, speciality finance" for KeyCorp

QUALIFICATIONS: Education: College degree BA Finance; MBA preferred. Experience: Minimum eight (8) years as RM in Healthcare or Commercial Banking or equivalent experience in underwriting team or product specialty area.

As expected a financial institution is asking for a degree.


How about CEO of Tyndall Federal Credit Union

Applicants should have 5-10 years of large credit union management experience with specific success in building strong consumer lending programs, promoting growth, and targeting underserved members. Good leadership skills and a commitment to providing excellent member service are required. Our client offers a competitive compensation and benefits package. Please
do not contact the credit union directly.

no mention there, but not really a fleshed out list i think.

CFO ? Ledyard National Bank

All candidates should be detail oriented, with advanced accounting skills, excellent communication skills and previous supervisory experience. Minimum of 10 years of formal accounting experience, with a bachelor's degree in finance/accounting. A strong preference will be given to candidates with CPA credentials.


So all in all, it really depends on the companies arena, technology/internet companies are less concerned with degrees, financial companies moreso, I am fairly sure it'd be a lot harder to get a foot in the door of a financial company with no degree and therefore unable to get the required experience.

Cynthetiq

as a hiring manager for field support and lan/wan/data center support....

certs didn't impress.... knowledge and practical experience rules

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mrap1

Thanks for the reply charliex, I see what you're getting at.

But back to the MCSE thing, some people have told me that it's not worth it because it eventually expires. What do you guys think about that?

poof

I take MCSE classes as a hobby. Never tested. It just helps me play with my 'puters.

We have some network admins at work that are MCSE, and frankly, they are not very impressive.

A cert is always going to help. It shows you took the initiative to become better at what you do, but, bottom line is that once you get your foot in the door with that piece of paper you must excell on your own merits and prove that they hired the right person.


(I misspelled that word for Microsoft folks. This is a Microsoft thread after all.)

charliex

An MCSE does sort of expire in the sense that they are basically "master classes" in a particular environment, eventually that software is deprecated and the MSCE is no longer globally pertinent . However the skills used to get it are still valid in some ways, but they are usually heavily biased to a specific set. Since microsoft just improves and upgrades rather than replace, its still useful.


Who should take -
http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcp/mcse/mcse.asp

Requirements -
http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/m...quirements.asp

dudemac

Personally having an MSCE and an MCSA, i would say get Cisco or Solaris certs rather than MSCE. MSCE was pushed down so many peoples throat as the way to get a job, you have idiots who have an MSCE and can not check thier mail.

However, some cert is better than no cert. MSCE will never hurt anything, but i would also reccomned doing MCSA, which uses all the tests you take for MSCE and most people get the SA before CE simply because its on the same road. I think SA takes 2 or less tests, if you choose the right electives for CE.

Either way, my personal view on certs is that it takes away from real life knowledge. A buddy of mine has been working with Solaris for 8 years and unix for 14 years, I would say he is a Unix Master, but some ass manager promoted another guy from his dept with less experiance b/c of a cert in unix. Since then my friend has a 3" binder full of certs.

If the company you are looking at wants an MSCE, tell them you will pass it within 6 mo. to show them you are a hard worker and willing to meet the demands of the job.

All that said, 385 is a great deal and it would be great to do mainly because its saving you some cash.

My little study hint for TCP/IP part of the MSCE, is give everyone you know an IP addy My wife was 127.0.0.2, it helps alot but make sure you chance the class addy for people out side family

Good luck

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Dudemac
Author
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mrap1

Listening to what all you people had to say, I think I'll take the class. I always wanted to be certified, I just never really had time to do anything else other than school work. But since this is my last semester, and my resume is looking kinda bleak, I figured that this will make a nice addition to put somewhere on it.

tikki

You can never go wrong with more education.

Konichiwaneko

take the course...but right now while you are still in school and can use it as an excuse

GET AN INTERNSHIP

see the majesty in that last statement?

You mention if yourself, if your resume looks bleak and you are getting a CS based degree...you will be shooting yourself in the leg if you don't get some job experience first.

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gariig

Just to reiterate it. I think I got lucky and landed a job locally for a company that makes websites, hopefully it involves more than HTML. I got lucky, you may be doing your old, mundane college job if you don't get a real one while you are still doing school.

Gariig

mrap1

I do have some experience, I did a non-paid internship at a hospital a while ago, and I've been at my job for about 5 years (since before I started college) as a customer service rep. What I meant to say is that I don't really have anything to distinguish myself from other prospective job candidates, which is why I think the MCSE cert is a good thing for me to do.

mrap1

As another topic, what is the best way for me to go about looking for a new CIS related job? I think I want to look for a position in my company, but it doesn't look like there's a 100% chance that they'll hire me. I've tried Monster.com, but I've never been contacted for anything.

Konichiwaneko

makes friends. Computer stores, and so on. The oppurtunity will come.

Network yourself out. Some people will see it has whoring out your talent, but those people who act that why tend to say such in spite.

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dudemac

I think ever since Monster added the blue colar jobs they suck. It used to be 90% tech jobs. Now its 99% crap.

Keep an ear open and let your IS dept know you are looking for a move up. However, the bad part about doing a move from within the company is that they IS staff will look at you as a user untill you so them otherwise. Had a girl who was bright, move into out IS dept and she acted like a user for almost 6 mo. untill she was all on her own and had to work.

Good luck

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Dudemac
Author
Somewhere

Krycheck

I've taken a few mcp cert tests on my way to getting my mcse. Mainly as a backup in case lose my job and I want to change professions. Although a mcse is good to have imho it's worthless with out the experience which I have little. From what I've seen you need both. A mcse isn't a magic cert to get your foot in the door but it helps to have it.
I just hope I can get back on track to completing it before they get too old.

As far as them "expiring" that's half true. A NT4 cert is useless now but if you have one it doesn't take much to move up to Win2k cert. Just like the industry you want to work for, you must keep up with the advancing technology.

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gariig

Getting a job right now is pretty tough. If you are looking at an entry level job you have a few hundred college grads trying to apply. If you look at a mid to senior position there are a few hundred Master, PhDs, Certs up the butt type people applying too. A lot of the IS field is unemployed and are going after the same 4-5 jobs. This of course varies area to area, but this will be pretty common all around.

Now, to get noticed. If you are still in college look for a Co-op job, it's like an internship through your school. These look the best because they have some backing(the school). If you can't get a Co-op get an internship/job...anywhere you can get experience. Also, find classes that offer big projects. For example, my Oracle DB class made a prototype for a Source/Leads management software for our teacher who is putting together a Law Enforcement IT package. In addition, our program is being used as is almost..that looks awesome on a resume.

If you are out of college this is much harder. More then likely you will have to take a pay cut to get that IS job, you are a green horn again and will get paid like it. To actually land the job, man if I knew that I would do recruitment instead. The best way is to network, people ARE hiring but for few positions so they are going to ask their current staff for recommendations..be one of those recommended.

For jobs, try monster.com, dice.com, and careerbuilder.com. They were the only ones that had anything worth wild.

Good luck.

Gariig

cowudders14

Sorry, I couldn't resist, I'm in a daft mood...

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Mr.Deflok

Get your MSCA then all you have to do is one mre exam to get your MSCE.

Love the pic cowudders14!

cowudders14

Thanks! Glad you liked it - I was unsure whether it would be well received, but I'm glad it was!

ebeye

Something that will help you more than a MCSE is a security clearance. If you ever get an opportunity to get one, do it as there are tons of government contractor jobs that require a minimum of a secret.

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