Herk

Hello TFP. I need your incite. My brother has pitched a fantastic idea for an internet news broadcast to me. I have very little knowledge on how to accomplish some tasks. I can bring video in from my hi8 cam and compress them into avi. I toyed with flash for a little while years ago. I can write code in several languages, although I'm not a programmer by trade.

What is the best way to set up a relatively automated system for bringing digital video in over 1394, editing its contents, applying overlays(like the red stripe that says the newscasters name), and then compressing it for worthiness to online flash video players?

What I am wrestling with is; should I get some nice video editing software or should I go with a Flash-like program?

By the way, I didn't know where best to put this. If it belongs elsewhere, I'm cool with that and I apologize.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-

Willravel

Here are a few links. I hope they can help.
Top 5 free video editing software programs
Video Podcasting - How to Make a Video Podcast - PodcastBlaster.com

Glory's Sun

I'm a die hard Avid user but FCP is also a great editing solution.

as far as doing your overlays..well it's relatively simple. It just depends on how fancy you want to get.

If this is for a podcast or for the web, then you could always cut your video in an NLE, throw it into after effects.. do your title, overlay work there and use the XFL functions to convert the comp into flash format.

The newest version of flash will directly import your comps from After Effects and keep the layers, etc in place..

I don't do any thing of that sort since most of my stuff is DTA, so you may want to check out the adobe flash forums for more information on the flash stuff. However, do not compress your footage before you put it into your NLE, this is just bad news. You should on do an encode and/or compression when the final sequence is done. Just do a capture straight from your tape, HDD, or cards (depending on what your camera uses) and then just edit the native footage. Make sure your project settings are the same settings as what you are importing.. for instance, if you shoot in 24p, you can't set up a project with 60i settings..the footage won't translate.

It sounds like what you are doing is pretty simple so you could go with Premiere or Vegas as you wouldn't need anything as robust as FCP or Avid. Premiere is better than vegas, but.. it has a following..

ok I'm going to shut up now.. I ramble on this subject and go on for days.

I'm moving this to technology by the way.

edit: had a look at will's Top 5 list and all I can say is "MEH!"

you get what you pay for.. especially in this area. Avid Free DV lacks alot of function that you will get from the Media Composer setup..

and ditch the Hi8..

depending on your budget I can give you some camera options.

Herk

Oh, I'm very interested in ditching the hi8, but the budget is keeping me from doing so for a little while. But hey, I'm all about you pitching options.

Thank you so much. I have a lot of research to do know on both of your recommendations.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-

shakran

to be honest, don't ditch the hi-8 any time soon, unless this thing takes off and you start bringing in some coin. For the quality of the web, you aren't going to get better video by upgrading to a dvd/minidv/flash camera. Your reason for upgrading down the line will really mainly be for audio purposes, since the more expensive cameras can take several audio inputs which makes interviewing and getting nat sound much nicer. And it will be for the lenses, which will shoot wider and therefore you won't have to stand 10 feet back just to frame up an interview.

Far more important than your hardware is your shooting and storytelling technique. There's a reason the pros are the pros, after all. It's not as easy as most people think. If you want any advice on that, I'm sure Gucci or myself can help you.

I'm going to disagree with Gucci about Avid. IMO it sucks, first of all, as an editor - -it only really shines when you start working with their direct-to-air systems, which you don't need and can't afford anyway. A lot of the editing flow is pretty archaic and requires extra steps that just shouldn't be there. I've used Avid Xpress, Newscutter, and Media Composer (I've also used Chrome, but that's actually software they bought from Pinnacle and so it's not /really/ Avid) (and it sucks anyway ) and they all have that central weakness. Additionally, it takes an act of God sometimes to import certain video formats.

I didn't see you say whether you have a Mac or a PC. If you have a Mac, Final Cut Pro is an excellent editor (blows Avid out of the water IMO). Go that route. If you have a PC, Premiere Pro is just as good. Get it. The learning curve for a non-linear editor is pretty steep, especially if you've not edited anything before, but FCP and PPro are both pretty logically set up. You can also get keyboards that have the FCP or PPro commands marked on the buttons to make it easier to remember how to work it.

i would recommend that you go here:

b-roll.net

and read everything you can find, look at the video, and lurk on the forums. There's a lot of good tips in there on both shooting and storytelling.

Let us know if you want any help or any critiques of your work.

Glory's Sun

I knew Shakran was going to come in here and blast Avid.. but whatever, FCP has it's share of issues just like avid does. Who cares if you can't import an MPEG-2? That's a format that should only be on an encode anyway. There are things I hate about Avid and things I hate about FCP, but an editor can't have enough tools at their disposal.

FCP could only dream of managing media as well as Avid does. I'll put up any Media Adrenaline against any FCP setup any day and blow it out of the water. The things Avid can accomplish with it's tracking and spectramatte key's and paint tools are awesome. Apple's motion pffft.. what a piece of shit.. even pro FCP editors admit that. FCP has some great workflows, but Avid still rules the nest. Avid owns the top market while FCP owns the freelance market. There is some intersection going on, but really.. you need to know both to get anywhere in the world these days. there are two other NLE's that are just as good that people never mention and those are Edius Pro (real time render for only $1,000) and DPS Velocity.

Really, though it just comes down to what you like and don't like. You can get keyboards for Avid also.. but I think for this type of application FCP and Avid are overkill. So Premiere would be the best bet for this type of workflow.

Ditch the Hi8, I mean damn you can get a HV30 for what.. $800 now? Good solid "indie" camera. If you bring in real coin then go for the RED, but be prepared for it's workflow.. it's tough, but damn if that camera doesn't put out some great looking footage.

Check out CreativeCow for tons of tutorials, articles and information.

and for stock footage check out Uberstock has some high quality stuff.

Herk

You guys are providing so much info. Thank you. I have little time currently, but I wanted to jump in and clarify that I have a PC(XP). However, I'd prefer to work in Ubuntu 8x64, but I'm expecting to get more answers on the PC side.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-

shakran

Didn't want to disappoint


Correct. Avid is great at managing media and in getting it DTA. When I say Avid sucks, I refer only to the interface and workflow of editing. If I want to trim a clip, why do I have to select the trim tool first and then go to the edge of the clip and trim? FCP and Premiere both just figure out that if I put the cursor at the edge of the clip, I probably want to trim it. And so forth. .

Also, remember who is asking the question here. This isn't CNN or a network affiliate, but a webcast. He's not going to need extensive media management, and he's certainly not going to need Avid's direct to air capabilities. I highly doubt he's going to need tracking (though I do hand it to you that Avid is the best in the business with that), and if he for whatever reason does need to blur a face, for the number of times he's going to need to do it, he can just create a matte and keyframe it. And to suggest Adrenaline in any form is just silly. He's not going to want to spend $20,000 for a turnkey editor. Especially for what he's doing, even $1,000 or so for Final Cut or Premiere is pushing it, but it's certainly better than spending 20 times that.


[quote]Avid owns the top market while FCP owns the freelance market. [quote]

Because Avid targets newsrooms that want to integrate their editor with their DTA server side. Final Cut can't do that (unless you get Grass Valley's system, and I have a feeling you and I will agree on how much GV sucks ) but then Final Cut doesn't want to do that. That's not their target consumer, but Hurk does not fall into Avid's target consumer either, nor will he until his operation expands to that of a mid/large market TV station.


Eh, it all depends on what his system is. If he's got a decently powerful computer, he can run his NLE without buying new equipment. And that means his choice is based on whether he owns a mac or a PC.


Also keep in mind that we /are/ talking about a web-based newscast. No one's going to be looking for HD video from him, at least not at first. What profit is there in spending 20 grand for Avid and 800 for a camera if he then has to shut his operation down due to lack of capital

Glory's Sun

I wasn't suggesting that he go and buy an adrenaline system.. that would be silly. I was just saying that I'd put Adrenaline up against any FCP setup any day.

I like Avid's interface, sure I may have to go into trim mode if I want to trim a clip, but seriously, the workflow isn't so great when I didn't want to trim the clip and but FCP assumed I did and I accidentally pulled the cursor. (granted undo works wonders)

The reason I suggest the HV30, is 1. it's a cheap and decent camera 2. it will have better audio and picture and 3. if you start out looking like crap, you won't get the coin. You need have some decent quality to grab the audience. 4. It integrates well with premiere.

As far as Grass Valley sucking, well.. the only thing I can say is that their automation systems are better than anything Leightronix puts out.. I don't even want to get into that as I had a horrible experience with a Leightronix system just the other day for a broadcast.


All the NLE battle's aside (AVID is still better shakran.. you will admit it one day!!), is the only thing I can say that you need to really be concerned about is framing, story lines and Color Correct, Color Correct, Color Correct!!! Wait, nvm, you'd need Avid to do a decent job of color correction

So yeah, I'm still going to say Premiere, because I could never actually recommend Vegas to anyone.. it's a pile of crap IMHO.

so let's break it down.. spend $1,000 on Premiere, $600-$800 on a decent cam, just capture the footage into Premiere, put on some simple overlays (There's probably even some template 3rd's in the package) and then broadcast.

That puts beginning cost at $1800 + man power. Not bad especially if it takes off.

shakran

So would I. . .but then I'd put a Ferrari up against a Lexus any day too


My biggest complaint about FCP is that you have to use it on a mac. I hate the mac interface and all the cutesy little shit they put in the GUI.



No argument there, though at my last shop it was always entertaining when the cameras would lose their minds and start panning and tilting randomly while we were on-air.





NEVER!!

That, I will grant you. I miss the color correction in Avid. FCP's manual rgb balance filter works, but it takes more time and effort. But then, I white balance so I don't generally need color correction. -elbow-

Glory's Sun

SO which automation systems do you like the best??

Ya, white balance is great and all, but when you receive footage from people who don't know what it is, or who don't have a 3 chip camera.. well.. you need the color correction...

One other thing about Premiere, I'm pretty certain that since the new version of Flash will directly import comps from AE and keep effects,color and tracking data, I'm betting it will do the same for premiere.. so if hurk wanted to do some flash stuff, it will be a better workflow going the adobe route..especially since he's on a pc.

I'm gonna have to check on that.. I don't do any flash..

shakran

I'm old school. I see nothing wrong with having a floor director and camera ops. Yes, it costs money, but it also keeps viewers that might switch to the competition if your automation keeps screwing up.

Automation is a good recipe for trouble if you have breaking news close to showtime, because then someone has to scramble to rescript the cameras. You'd better hope that news doesn't break during showtime. We had one incident where I was photogging for a live shot outside a courthouse, when the guy on perp walk broke loose and tried to escape. Crazy cop pile-on, yelling, tazering, etc. We got the first 5 seconds of it on air and then it was cut off because the automation went on to the next shot.

It's also a recipe for trouble if you have an anchor who likes to improvise, and sometimes goes a few seconds too long. Oops. Yes, we had that too. Every. Damn. Day.


And yeah, pulling footage in from others is always a risky proposition

Glory's Sun

well most automation systems have a break in feed that you can go to the breaking news segment.. it just requires a user to do so.. so I guess if a director isn't paying attention then yeah.. those problems happen..

I love watching news shows and seeing the oops factors.. I guess it's just funnier when you know why it happened.

but anyway.. back to the thread

Herk

Holy crap guys. I love all the effort your putting into, well just the typing time alone. But I have to clarify, this is just a little small project primarily eccentric and humorous. The audience will barely extend past family, no doubt. I do this because I like to expand my mind, tackle challenging tasks with little reason. ... on the cheap.

On a side note - Front page Digg tonight had posted, "10 best free video editors for Ubuntu". I thought that was interesting. Thanks for your knowledge.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-