Rafael Palmeiro suspended for steroid use. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Jimellow · 08-01-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Palmeiro will be suspended steroids policy violation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press

Rafael Palmeiro was suspended Monday for violating Major League Baseball's steroids policy, nearly five months after telling Congress that "I have never used steroids. Period."

Palmeiro two weeks ago collected his 3,000th hit, joining Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray as the only players with 3,000 hits and 500 homers.

Palmeiro, 40, is the seventh and highest-profile player to test positive under the major league policy adopted earlier this year.

Baseball's prescribed minimum penalty is a 10-day suspension.

The image of Palmeiro taking a sweet swing from the left side of the plate has been replaced in some minds by the sight of him testifying before a House committee investigating steroids in baseball.

The hearing included testimony from Jose Canseco, who in his book cited Palmeiro and several other players as steroid users. Palmeiro emphatically denies using the performance-enhancing drug, but the Baltimore Orioles' first baseman can't deny how perceptions have changed.

"In my opinion, everyone that plays baseball in this era has been tainted," Palmeiro said during spring training. "Not just the people that he has named in the book, I think this whole era over the last 10, 15 or 20 years has been tainted. Regardless of whether you did or you didn't do anything, this whole era will have that label."

This is surprising, and will certainly affect his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame.

He now has a black cloud over him that will apply to his past, as well as any further baseball he plays.

MontanaXVI · 08-01-2005, 09:11 AM

this is sickening to me, being an avid Jose Canseco fan I believe he wrote the book for all the wrong reasons but Raffy was right there to deny it all and stand up. He never had any HUGE statistical seasons which led me to believe maybe he really was not using anything when 25-35 HR guys were jumping up to 60-70 and there was Pameiro still plugging 35 HR's. Now this, just heartbreaking.

djtestudo · 08-01-2005, 09:16 AM

From the ESPN.com story...

Quote:

In remarks prepared for a conference call Monday, Palmeiro said he had accepted his punishment and could not explain how the steroids got into his body.

"I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period," he said. "Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

I find this very upsetting, as Raffy has long been one of my favorite players.

I think, though, that I am willing to believe him based on his history, or at least to wait until we find out exactly what we're talking about.

*goes off to talk to his Palmeiro bobblehead*

radioguy · 08-01-2005, 10:16 AM

i think the key word that i've noticed other athlete's using is the word "intentionally". that allows them to still look somewhat good in the public's eyes, inferring that someone must have slipped them something because there is no way the athlete would knowingly take steroids.

it's a damn shame, but kinda ironic after he bashed canseco at the senate hearings.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-01-2005, 10:52 AM

Someone, maybe Rick Reilly in SI (but I'm not sure) did a study of how Palmeiro's stats went up when the Rangers acquired Canseco. It was DRAMATIC.

First thing I thought of, though, was "Wonder if Viagra comes across as a steroid in those tests." I also have pondered if his need for Viagra was any way related to steroid use.

Jimellow · 08-01-2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason

Someone, maybe Rick Reilly in SI (but I'm not sure) did a study of how Palmeiro's stats went up when the Rangers acquired Canseco. It was DRAMATIC.

Pulled this from related-FARK thread:

Quote:

Raffie stats:

1986 21 CHC 3
1987 22 CHC 14
1988 23 CHC 8
1989 24 TEX 8
1990 25 TEX 14 avg HRs = 9

meets Jose Canseco...

1991 26 TEX 26
1992 27 TEX 22
1993 28 TEX 37
1994 29 BAL 23
1995 30 BAL 39
1996 31 BAL 39
1997 32 BAL 38
1998 33 BAL 43
1999 34 TEX 47
2000 35 TEX 39
2001 36 TEX 47
2002 37 TEX 43
2003 38 TEX 38
2004 39 BAL 23 avg HRs = 36

Any questions?

highthief · 08-01-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radioguy

i think the key word that i've noticed other athlete's using is the word "intentionally".

Every athlete who evers gets busted - from Ben Johnson on up - always uses the "it musta been in the vitamins I took" defense. Said defense never holds up.

Guy is a user and a hypocrite, IMO.

Kurant · 08-01-2005, 11:13 AM

Funny, wasen't he there to deny the whole freaking thing in Canseco's book?

Odd how Canseco's book might not be complete bullshit.

Kubz18 · 08-01-2005, 11:17 AM

its sad to see but you now have to start believing jose canseco... it too bad raffie couldnt give it up he was really doing some serious campagining for the hall of fame....BUT now its hard to tell if his "great stats" at his age are ligit or not....

i think this honestly ruins his chance at the hall and its too bad he has to suffer
he will be the one that will suffer the most inside and outside of baseball for this....mostly because of his passionate denial of setroids

i hate hypocrites

djtestudo · 08-01-2005, 12:56 PM

One point to note from his statement to the press:

"Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally -- in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling -- but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy."

Basically, even the arbitrator said he didn't do it intentionally.

Also, he insinuated in his conference call that it was something OTC given to him.

I think it is something simple like a friend gave him something from GNC and he took it.

Of course, when everyone is reporting it wrong ("steroid violation" instead of "banned substance") I can't see how he recovers from this.

maximusveritas · 08-01-2005, 01:06 PM

The thing that's bugging me is : why did he keep taking steroids? He had to know that there was a decent chance of him being caught and having his whole career tarnished.

The only thing I can figure is that he felt he had to have another good season in order to get into the Hall.

If he had quit using them, he would have stunk like Sosa. People might not have pinned it on his prior steroid use, but they still wouldn't vote him into the Hall.

So instead, he took a gamble and lost. Too bad, but it looks like this might open a few more people's eyes to the truth.

cyrnel · 08-01-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Basically, even the arbitrator said he didn't do it intentionally.

No, be clear, the arbitrator did not say it wasn't intentional. He was just unable to say with certainty anything besides Raf was in violation due to having it in his system. Unless Raf can come up with a believable story it's time for penalties and conspiracy theories.

SmyDnBz · 08-01-2005, 02:16 PM

I've lost a great deal of respect for Raffy, I can say that it truly was surprising and I never would've thought someone that I thought was a stand-up guy would do something like this.....but this is more proof you can't trust the public faces most athletes put on, good or bad.

I was just reading the article on ESPN and they mention Giambi and as a Yankee fan I don't care how many home runs the guy hits, if he wins the WS for us...I have no respect for him. The guy has shown (barring any sudden substances showing up) that he can hit without any help. It just irks me that a guy with that kind of talent threw his prime years down the toilet when all he needed was a confidence boost.

I just don't know anymore, I now realize that when I was young I turned a blind eye to the obvious use in the game at the time and it's tough to think that the athletes I grew up watching were simply fabricated.

soccerchamp76 · 08-01-2005, 06:07 PM

Only Raffy knows if he used them intentionally. It does not matter though, he lied, and now he probably won't be a 1st ballot HOF-er.

coyote · 08-01-2005, 09:31 PM

He was the one guy I had respect for after the congessional hearings, and this coming from a huge bash brothers fan. This one is hard to swallow. He seemed so passionately defensive of the allocations. How many of us have inadvertantly taken steroids? Maybe they were in his viagra. Kinda of a shame anyway

djtestudo · 08-01-2005, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyote

He was the one guy I had respect for after the congessional hearings, and this coming from a huge bash brothers fan. This one is hard to swallow. He seemed so passionately defensive of the allocations. How many of us have inadvertantly taken steroids? Maybe they were in his viagra. Kinda of a shame anyway

Depends...ever use a supplement from GNC?

Spartak · 08-01-2005, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Of course, when everyone is reporting it wrong ("steroid violation" instead of "banned substance") I can't see how he recovers from this.

This was one of the flaws pointed out with the new steroids policy, in that MLB would NEVER disclose what exactly the player in question tested positive for.

Also, "steroid violation" sells more newspapers than "banned substance", especially considering the hoopla around Raffy's HoF credentials lately.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-02-2005, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimellow

Pulled this from related-FARK thread:

That's the one! Thanks for posting that for us.

To me, that was something that made me think Canseco was telling the truth about Palmeiro--he started hitting for power like he was juiced.

There may be another explanation, but I've not seen a defender of Palmeiro or detractor of Canseco address it.

bond007 · 08-02-2005, 11:54 AM

okay, I'll defend Palmeiro...

Quote:

Raffie stats:

1986 21 CHC 3
1987 22 CHC 14

Games Played:
1986: 22
1987: 84

in his "official" rookie season of '87, Raffy hit 14 HRs in approximately half a season. do the math, that's approx. 25-30 HRs over a full season. but, when he didn't meet the Cubbies' expectations (of developing into a true power hitter) in '88, they traded him to Texas. looking beyond his HR totals, you'd notice that he hit 41 2Bs, and only struck out 34 times. in other words, he was a contact hitter. by 1991, which is still pre-Canseco, he was up to 49 2Bs and 26 HRs, but he also struck out more than twice as much. in other words, he was becoming a true power hitter.

also, what most people tend to forget is that it usually takes at least a couple of years to develop into a power hitter (examples: Hank Aaron averaged 22 HRs his 1st three seasons, Willie Mays averaged 20 HRs his 1st two seasons, and Barry Bonds averaged 21 HRs his 1st four seasons).

last, but certainly not least is the ballpark factor. the home parks in Arlington and Baltimore are notorious for being hitter's parks. even moreso if you're a left-handed hitter. if he'd been playing his whole career in places like Dodger Stadium, Petco Park, Safeco Field, etc... his HR total would be in the 400 range.

Blackthorn · 08-02-2005, 01:15 PM

*finger wagging*

I did NOT have sex with that woman...Monica Lewinsky....blah blah blah...

djtestudo · 08-02-2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bond007

okay, I'll defend Palmeiro...

Games Played:
1986: 22
1987: 84

in his "official" rookie season of '87, Raffy hit 14 HRs in approximately half a season. do the math, that's approx. 25-30 HRs over a full season. but, when he didn't meet the Cubbies' expectations (of developing into a true power hitter) in '88, they traded him to Texas. looking beyond his HR totals, you'd notice that he hit 41 2Bs, and only struck out 34 times. in other words, he was a contact hitter. by 1991, which is still pre-Canseco, he was up to 49 2Bs and 26 HRs, but he also struck out more than twice as much. in other words, he was becoming a true power hitter.

also, what most people tend to forget is that it usually takes at least a couple of years to develop into a power hitter (examples: Hank Aaron averaged 22 HRs his 1st three seasons, Willie Mays averaged 20 HRs his 1st two seasons, and Barry Bonds averaged 21 HRs his 1st four seasons).

last, but certainly not least is the ballpark factor. the home parks in Arlington and Baltimore are notorious for being hitter's parks. even moreso if you're a left-handed hitter. if he'd been playing his whole career in places like Dodger Stadium, Petco Park, Safeco Field, etc... his HR total would be in the 400 range.

Great points.

When a young player is hitting a lit of doubles, that's normally a sign that he'll be turing them into homers as he grows.

Unless Aaron and Mays were on the 'roids too...

Blackthorn · 08-02-2005, 04:45 PM

Hal McCoy, the Hall of Fame writer for the Dayton Daily News, said tonight on the radio (700 WLW all 50,000 watts of it) that he would not vote for Mr. Palmiero on the first ballot for the Hall of Fame. He added nor any other ballot because he believes that if you don't go on the first ballot your stats sure didn't change when it comes time for the second one.

soccerchamp76 · 08-02-2005, 10:50 PM

Well, now the test has shown he has tested positive for a KNOWN ANABOLIC STEROID. Shit is going to hit the fan, especially when people find out that MLB has known about this since MAY but has covered it up so that he can get his 3,000 hits in grace.

Fuck him, the liar DOES NOT deserve to even step foot in the Hall of Fame.

Mitzkrieg · 08-02-2005, 11:56 PM

from espn....

Quote:

Rafael Palmeiro's positive steroid test was for stanozolol, a powerful anabolic steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, according to a newspaper report.

there it is. although there hasn't been any response by raffy's agent or himself yet. the report still could be wrong, but sheesh that's pretty bad.

cyrnel · 08-03-2005, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soccerchamp76

especially when people find out that MLB has known about this since MAY but has covered it up so that he can get his 3,000 hits in grace.

THIS I had not caught. That truly sucks. What is this, some kind of MLB/Enron gene splicing?

Quote:

Fuck him, the liar DOES NOT deserve to even step foot in the Hall of Fame.

I concur.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-03-2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bond007

by 1991, which is still pre-Canseco, he was up to 49 2Bs and 26 HRs, but he also struck out more than twice as much. in other words, he was becoming a true power hitter.

According the chart ^ the list here, Canseco joined the Rangers at the beginning of 1991. This is something we can check with ease, I think. I have a link to an on-line baseball register, but it's on the computer at home. I don't have time to do a Google search at the moment, maybe someone can nail this down for us.

Quote:

last, but certainly not least is the ballpark factor. the home parks in Arlington and Baltimore are notorious for being hitter's parks. even moreso if you're a left-handed hitter. if he'd been playing his whole career in places like Dodger Stadium, Petco Park, Safeco Field, etc... his HR total would be in the 400 range.

Your point about a hitter developing over time even without steroids is a good one, but the ballpark deal doesn't quite wash--Palmeiro started with the Cubs, hardly a Grand Canyon of a ballpark for home run hitters.

Ilow · 08-03-2005, 10:50 AM

As far as I'm concerned, he has less business being in the Hall than Pete Rose (I know different reasons, but in principle...). Hate to say it but it brings a certain amount of credibility to Canseco's allegations.!? It sort of is worse because of his testimony at the hearing too. And MLB's handling of the timing of this incident is disgraceful. Bud Selig is a spineless moron.

pan6467 · 08-03-2005, 11:42 AM

If Raffy or McGwire or any of these steroid junkies get in and Rose can't ....... that's a freaking disgrace to anything baseball and I'll never watch the game again.

Rose gambled..... but he didn't cheat to get his numbers. These guys flat out cheated and showed that tradition didn't mean shit to them. Rose WAS tradition, anyone whoever saw that man play knows he went out there with a fire and intensity no other player ever had.... especially today.

As for Raffy, I think 2 things....

1) his comment "Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally -- in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling -- but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy."

is BS.... let's hear what the arbitrator really had to say..... oh wait we can't the player's association prevents them from any public comment.... so Raffy who already said he never ever did (and lied... as he backtracked to never knowingly did) so Raffy can say hwatever he wants about the situation to try to save face and noone can dispute it....... plus "heavy burden imposed on the players"??????

Ok Raffy, I seriously don't believe as powerful as the union is that they would not have the the testing if the players burden were so great.

How many have gotten caught? Makes me wonder though how many pissed positive but through appeals were able to hide it somehow.

2) My take when I first heard about it was MLB now has their true fall guy, their token power hitter/ all star that they can point to and say, "see, our testing works, we don't need Congress coming in."

guthmund · 08-03-2005, 01:01 PM

He tested positive for Stanozolol...

Quote:

Originally Posted by From Espn.com

Stanozolol, known by the brand name Winstrol, is most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada, who was stripped of his 100-meter gold medal in 1988. It is not available in over-the-counter supplements and is known as a powerful strength-builder, casting doubt on Palmeiro's claims that he ingested the drug unwittingly.

So....you can't buy this in the generic over the counter supplement shit from GNC and the like... It's a fairly popular steroid from what I've read about it on the internet. So, Raffy's story is looking thinner and thinner.

For sure they've got their fall guy, whether they meant to or not. Palmeiro is just big enough to please the blood thirsty, but small enough to not taint the legacy of the truly big names of baseball.

Now personally, I think Pete Rose is a pretty big dipshit, but to keep him out while the 'roid heads get in...you're right, it's a "freaking disgrace." It disgusts me on a deep and personal level.

Rafael Palmeiro = Fucking Hypocrite

bond007 · 08-03-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

According the chart ^ the list here, Canseco joined the Rangers at the beginning of 1991.

Canseco didn't get traded to the Rangers 'til August 31, 1992 (trade details: traded by the Oakland Athletics to the Texas Rangers for Ruben Sierra, Jeff Russell, Bobby Witt, and cash).

here's the link:
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/cansecojose/

Cross-Over · 08-03-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

MLB has known about this since MAY but has covered it up so that he can get his 3,000 hits in grace

I was just watching Around the Horn on ESPN, and the following points were made:

-It is the league's policy to not announce the suspension until the appeal process has been exhausted. For example, Alex Sanchez tested positive in spring training, but was not suspended until the beginning of the regular season once the appeal process was executed. Franklin also tested positive in May like Raffy, but his suspension was not announced until days ago for the same reason.

-The players union, not the owners and Selig, were the most reluctant to agree to the new steroid policy.

So it is unfair to say that MLB was covering it up, because they were not, they were following the policy that applies to all players (No exceptions for 500 Hr/3000 hits players).

Should the current policy be changed?
Most definitely.

Was MLB covering it up?
Absolutely not

soccerchamp76 · 08-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Does it really take 4 months to go through an appeal process in MLB court? I can understand that in a legal court, but in baseball, 4 months to appeal is way to much.

pan6467 · 08-03-2005, 03:14 PM

Now the question begs, if a player like Manny, A-Rod, Thome, or a very high paid profile player pissed positive would they be known, or for the safety of the game would MLB find a way to put them on the DL for a period and have the tests buried?

I find it interesting Bonds announces he probably is done this year just as the results on Raffy become known. Bonds maybe done period, he may figure that he has gotten as far as he can and knows he has a target on him.

pan6467 · 08-03-2005, 03:41 PM

We have our generation's Shoeless Joe...... waving his finger and making the comments he made must have made him some enemies. Congress and MLB along with the union are going to make a HUGE example out of Raffy.... and it's sad the one they truly needed to nab was Bonds.

Raffy seems like one of the nicer guys and it is a shame they are making him the martyr. He just got caught doing what everyone else was, no excuse butI'm sure there are many big leaguers right now rubbing the sweat off their brow and thanking their God .

Quote:

WASHINGTON - Congress will investigate whether baseball slugger Rafael Palmeiro perjured himself when he told a House committee that he hadn't taken steroids.

With the player's consent, Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, and the committee's ranking Democrat, Rep. Henry Waxman of California, asked Major League Baseball on Wednesday to turn over information about the failed drug test that resulted in a 10-day suspension for Palmeiro this week.

On March 17, Palmeiro appeared before their panel and, pointing a finger in the air, said under oath, "I have never used steroids. Period."

"As a practical matter, perjury referrals are uncommon," Davis told The Associated Press. "Prosecutions are rare. But this is a high-profile case, so I think it will get an honest look-see. I don't think anyone can avoid it."

"If we did nothing," he added, "I think we'd look like idiots, don't you?"

LINK: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050803/...palmeiro_drugs

Wonder if this means Giambi is going to drop his HR #'s again.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-03-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bond007

Canseco didn't get traded to the Rangers 'til August 31, 1992 (trade details: traded by the Oakland Athletics to the Texas Rangers for Ruben Sierra, Jeff Russell, Bobby Witt, and cash).

here's the link:
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/cansecojose/

Thanks for looking that up before I had a chance to.

Of course, the first chart said "Meets Canseco" not "Teammate of. . ." I've not read JUICED; does Jose allege they met and become drug using buddies before the trade?

In any event, look at the numbers for the years after they were teammates:

1991 26 TEX 26
1992 27 TEX 22 Canseco joins the Rangers in August
1993 28 TEX 37 15 more bombs
1994 29 BAL 23 Strike shortened season--on pace for 37 again?
1995 30 BAL 39 Over 40 a year from here out--juiced baseball or player?
1996 31 BAL 39
1997 32 BAL 38
1998 33 BAL 43
1999 34 TEX 47
2000 35 TEX 39
2001 36 TEX 47
2002 37 TEX 43

Jimellow · 08-03-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason

Thanks for looking that up before I had a chance to.

Of course, the first chart said "Meets Canseco" not "Teammate of. . ." I've not read JUICED; does Jose allege they met and become drug using buddies before the trade?

It's my understanding the two gew up together, or at least knew each other before the Majors.

Not sure exactly though, as I didn't read the book either.

MikeSty · 08-03-2005, 09:31 PM

I read the book, but Jose wasn't THAT clear. IIRC ( i just finished the book, very good), they went to the same high school, but they didn't really contact eachother until Jose joined the Rangers.

Jose claims that when he joined the Ranger,s he became close chums with Raffy, Pudge, and Juan-Gon - all of whom he got on steroids.

You may flame Canseco (I would too), but, I really urge you to read the book. IMO, it's VERY good - i think Raffy being caught is making Canseco laugh ATM. Of course, he does a great job of pointing out the good in 'roids.

08-01-2005, 09:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
MontanaXVI Junkie Location: Go A's!!!!	this is sickening to me, being an avid Jose Canseco fan I believe he wrote the book for all the wrong reasons but Raffy was right there to deny it all and stand up. He never had any HUGE statistical seasons which led me to believe maybe he really was not using anything when 25-35 HR guys were jumping up to 60-70 and there was Pameiro still plugging 35 HR's. Now this, just heartbreaking. __________________ Spank you very much

08-01-2005, 10:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
AVoiceOfReason Psycho Location: Greenwood, Arkansas	Someone, maybe Rick Reilly in SI (but I'm not sure) did a study of how Palmeiro's stats went up when the Rangers acquired Canseco. It was DRAMATIC. First thing I thought of, though, was "Wonder if Viagra comes across as a steroid in those tests." I also have pondered if his need for Viagra was any way related to steroid use. __________________ AVOR A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

08-01-2005, 11:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kubz18 Crazy Location: Austin....Austin, Massachusetts	its sad to see but you now have to start believing jose canseco... it too bad raffie couldnt give it up he was really doing some serious campagining for the hall of fame....BUT now its hard to tell if his "great stats" at his age are ligit or not.... i think this honestly ruins his chance at the hall and its too bad he has to suffer he will be the one that will suffer the most inside and outside of baseball for this....mostly because of his passionate denial of setroids i hate hypocrites __________________ "I have no idea whats going on"

08-01-2005, 12:56 PM	#10 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	One point to note from his statement to the press: "Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally -- in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling -- but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy." Basically, even the arbitrator said he didn't do it intentionally. Also, he insinuated in his conference call that it was something OTC given to him. I think it is something simple like a friend gave him something from GNC and he took it. Of course, when everyone is reporting it wrong ("steroid violation" instead of "banned substance") I can't see how he recovers from this. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

08-01-2005, 06:07 PM	#14 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	Only Raffy knows if he used them intentionally. It does not matter though, he lied, and now he probably won't be a 1st ballot HOF-er. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

08-01-2005, 10:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
radioguy Registered User Location: Texas	i think the key word that i've noticed other athlete's using is the word "intentionally". that allows them to still look somewhat good in the public's eyes, inferring that someone must have slipped them something because there is no way the athlete would knowingly take steroids. it's a damn shame, but kinda ironic after he bashed canseco at the senate hearings.

08-01-2005, 11:13 AM	#8 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	Funny, wasen't he there to deny the whole freaking thing in Canseco's book? Odd how Canseco's book might not be complete bullshit.

08-01-2005, 01:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	The thing that's bugging me is : why did he keep taking steroids? He had to know that there was a decent chance of him being caught and having his whole career tarnished. The only thing I can figure is that he felt he had to have another good season in order to get into the Hall. If he had quit using them, he would have stunk like Sosa. People might not have pinned it on his prior steroid use, but they still wouldn't vote him into the Hall. So instead, he took a gamble and lost. Too bad, but it looks like this might open a few more people's eyes to the truth.

08-01-2005, 02:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
SmyDnBz Upright	I've lost a great deal of respect for Raffy, I can say that it truly was surprising and I never would've thought someone that I thought was a stand-up guy would do something like this.....but this is more proof you can't trust the public faces most athletes put on, good or bad. I was just reading the article on ESPN and they mention Giambi and as a Yankee fan I don't care how many home runs the guy hits, if he wins the WS for us...I have no respect for him. The guy has shown (barring any sudden substances showing up) that he can hit without any help. It just irks me that a guy with that kind of talent threw his prime years down the toilet when all he needed was a confidence boost. I just don't know anymore, I now realize that when I was young I turned a blind eye to the obvious use in the game at the time and it's tough to think that the athletes I grew up watching were simply fabricated.

08-01-2005, 09:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
coyote Tilted	He was the one guy I had respect for after the congessional hearings, and this coming from a huge bash brothers fan. This one is hard to swallow. He seemed so passionately defensive of the allocations. How many of us have inadvertantly taken steroids? Maybe they were in his viagra. Kinda of a shame anyway

08-02-2005, 01:15 PM	#20 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	finger wagging I did NOT have sex with that woman...Monica Lewinsky....blah blah blah... __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

08-02-2005, 04:45 PM	#22 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	Hal McCoy, the Hall of Fame writer for the Dayton Daily News, said tonight on the radio (700 WLW all 50,000 watts of it) that he would not vote for Mr. Palmiero on the first ballot for the Hall of Fame. He added nor any other ballot because he believes that if you don't go on the first ballot your stats sure didn't change when it comes time for the second one. __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

08-02-2005, 10:50 PM	#23 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	Well, now the test has shown he has tested positive for a KNOWN ANABOLIC STEROID. Shit is going to hit the fan, especially when people find out that MLB has known about this since MAY but has covered it up so that he can get his 3,000 hits in grace. Fuck him, the liar DOES NOT deserve to even step foot in the Hall of Fame. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

08-03-2005, 10:50 AM	#27 (permalink)
Ilow Junkie Location: Pats country	As far as I'm concerned, he has less business being in the Hall than Pete Rose (I know different reasons, but in principle...). Hate to say it but it brings a certain amount of credibility to Canseco's allegations.!? It sort of is worse because of his testimony at the hearing too. And MLB's handling of the timing of this incident is disgraceful. Bud Selig is a spineless moron. __________________ "Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about" --Sam Harris

08-03-2005, 11:42 AM	#28 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	If Raffy or McGwire or any of these steroid junkies get in and Rose can't ....... that's a freaking disgrace to anything baseball and I'll never watch the game again. Rose gambled..... but he didn't cheat to get his numbers. These guys flat out cheated and showed that tradition didn't mean shit to them. Rose WAS tradition, anyone whoever saw that man play knows he went out there with a fire and intensity no other player ever had.... especially today. As for Raffy, I think 2 things.... 1) his comment "Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally -- in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling -- but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy." is BS.... let's hear what the arbitrator really had to say..... oh wait we can't the player's association prevents them from any public comment.... so Raffy who already said he never ever did (and lied... as he backtracked to never knowingly did) so Raffy can say hwatever he wants about the situation to try to save face and noone can dispute it....... plus "heavy burden imposed on the players"?????? Ok Raffy, I seriously don't believe as powerful as the union is that they would not have the the testing if the players burden were so great. How many have gotten caught? Makes me wonder though how many pissed positive but through appeals were able to hide it somehow. 2) My take when I first heard about it was MLB now has their true fall guy, their token power hitter/ all star that they can point to and say, "see, our testing works, we don't need Congress coming in." __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 08-03-2005 at 11:46 AM..

08-03-2005, 01:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	Does it really take 4 months to go through an appeal process in MLB court? I can understand that in a legal court, but in baseball, 4 months to appeal is way to much. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

08-03-2005, 03:14 PM	#33 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Now the question begs, if a player like Manny, A-Rod, Thome, or a very high paid profile player pissed positive would they be known, or for the safety of the game would MLB find a way to put them on the DL for a period and have the tests buried? I find it interesting Bonds announces he probably is done this year just as the results on Raffy become known. Bonds maybe done period, he may figure that he has gotten as far as he can and knows he has a target on him. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

08-03-2005, 09:31 PM	#37 (permalink)
MikeSty The Computer Kid :D Location: 127.0.0.1	I read the book, but Jose wasn't THAT clear. IIRC ( i just finished the book, very good), they went to the same high school, but they didn't really contact eachother until Jose joined the Rangers. Jose claims that when he joined the Ranger,s he became close chums with Raffy, Pudge, and Juan-Gon - all of whom he got on steroids. You may flame Canseco (I would too), but, I really urge you to read the book. IMO, it's VERY good - i think Raffy being caught is making Canseco laugh ATM. Of course, he does a great job of pointing out the good in 'roids.