Ladies and gentlement, your 04-05 Los Angeles Lakers - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-21-2004, 11:29 AM

I'm still baffled that people actually think the Lake show will be a threat in the west next year. Vlade does not make them a shoe-in either, the man is old as hades, moves like the tin man, he'll maybe play 30 minutes a game. Not to mention the Lakers have 0 depth on the bench this year except for maybe Butler. Maybe Rush and Walton will develop into nice role players, but they are still young and still have to prove themselves... no one game in the playoff's does not count for proving themselves.

1-Minnesota 2- San Antonio 3- Sacramento 4- Dallas 5-Memphis 6- Denver 7- Houston 8- Portland, Utah, Pheonix, Lakers.

I'm betting they will be a first round exit if that.

SiphonX · 07-21-2004, 11:30 AM

yeah, the lakers will make the playoffs, but when the heat play them, they'll lose =) Shaq said he was gonna return to his "leaner and meaner" days like he was with the Magic. A lean shaq is a scary shaq, plus a great PG in wade and consistent scorer in jones, Heat are going to the top. (Might be biased, check my location)

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-21-2004, 11:40 AM

cameroncrazy822 · 07-21-2004, 05:53 PM

I agree totally with you. The Lakers, even with Kobe, have to be devalued after Shaq has made his departure. The Heat's valuation must go through the roof . Shaq is argueably the most dominating center to have ever played the pro game. The Heat are absolutely ahead of the Lakers as far as off season acquisitions are concerned. God help Kobe when he brings it to the middle against the Heat... I'm sure though that the Lakers have upgraded his medical insurance policy for just this inevitability. I don't want to piss off Hal anymore than I already have so that will be all I have to say on this issue.

Mitzkrieg · 07-21-2004, 06:24 PM

Mojo, i don't remember seeing anyone here saying Vlade made the Lakers a shoe-in. why even make that comment? but adding Vlade does give them a better chance. he's one of the better passing center's in the league great with pick and rolls and high posts drawing out the defense. plus, he can flop

anyways, i don't know if you were referring to my last post or not, since i did mention Vlade. if you were, re-read it. if you're talkin about Hal's posts, hell, to me he's just trying to be upbeat and behind his team which any real fan would do, albeit a little cocky, but that's just Hal, heh.

besides anything in these threads is all speculation and assumption. you can argue it to death, but no one knows what will happen until the season gets underway. i'm sure we'll have some people saying i told you so..... blah blah, hindsight is always 20/20.

i always like hearing what other people think, but no one really knows shit. speculation about what will happen next season is just that. can you really tell me you picked Detroit to win the finals before the start of last season? (besides the obvious Detroit fans) don't think anyone did. seemed to me everyone was picking the lakers before all the crap with Kobe and the injuries happened.

goddfather40 · 07-21-2004, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Maybe Rush and Walton will develop into nice role players, but they are still young and still have to prove themselves... no one game in the playoff's does not count for proving themselves.

I disagree on Rush at least. He was starter in many games last year, he filled in fine during Kobe's injuries. He is a very good defender too.

Are you still bitter over Rush's performance in Game 6 of the WCF's?

Mitzkrieg · 07-21-2004, 06:31 PM

ditto, goddfather..... Rush was huge with 3 pointers and steals in several games during the playoffs. my view on Walton is his rookiness was still showing through, he made several bad mistakes at inopportune times. and yeah, he did have one good game in the finals with Detroit. he has a lot of learning to do.

Halx · 07-21-2004, 07:24 PM

I'm sitting here, smirking. I can't understand how people think the Lakers are sunk. Sure, we're done with Shaq, but we stole the core of a team that exceeded EVERYONE'S expectations and came to within a game of the ECF. We replaced him with the best passing (and flopping) center in the game and the rest of our core is coming back for more. Aside from that, we have a rookie point guard who could be the next Ginobili (it's possible).

I watched all these games last year... and I don't think Shaq is so great. I saw many times where the second unit came into the game and completely tore shit up. We have a lot of talent. Now that we have a coach who embraces the skills of our younger team, I don't expect to skip many beats.

You can rave all you want about how much Shaq meant to the Lakers and how they're doomed without him, but something inside me tells me that it's just the haters looking for a crack in the armor.

I read a nice article today about how a baseball team owner used charts of where players hit the ball on the field to tell if they were in their prime or if they were starting to decline. None of the other owners used this method, and so they made seemingly lopsided trades with this owner, only to find out that they had received an aging player on his downfall.

Shaq is on his downfall. Commentary about how Luke Walton, one of the best to get the ball to Shaq in the post, had to lower the trajectory on his passes because Shaq could no longer get up high enough to catch some of them, outlined the same points that the baseball team owner's hitting charts highlighted. While he may be putting up numbers, he's on his way down.

Kurant · 07-22-2004, 05:44 AM

They are sunk! It's possible they aren't even the 8th best team in the west. (BTW, I had to laugh at Houston #7 in that list someone posted).

Haters? No, no ones a hater, everyone, except Lakers fans realize what Shaq meant to the Lakers. He meant back-to-back-to-back championships. If you want to argue that, you can do it all day. But you know for a fact, the Lakers do not win anything with out Shaq being a part of that team. You want to deny his impact in those 3 years? No, it's the haters that discount Shaq for doing what he did, and saying what he did.

The core? You lost the core. Great job, you kept Kobe, and aging downfall? Payton is obviously the epitimy of that. We'll see how it goes with Rudy as the next coach for the Payton/Kobe show. who knows, maybe Payton wasen't very keen to the triangle, which involved him moving more without the ball, instead of working with the ball.

Everyone knows Shaq is on the way down, but if you can honestly say that's a reason for the Lakers to rid themselves of him, then Jerry Buss is a bigger idiot then I thought he was. He's STILL the most dominating 7-footer in the game (I said most dominating, not the BEST 7-footer) and he changes the game in a way no one else does. You also lost Fish, which IMO was one guy the needed to keep. He's still decent, he still has uncanny ability to come in and hit 3's off the bench. Oh, don't worry about the fact you have no bench, now.

The Lakers IMO are still playoff bound. But they aren't good enough to make a legitimate run. And yes, don't fool yourselves, there is a difference.

Halx · 07-22-2004, 10:30 AM

WHAT? Kurant, man... you obviously don't know what I know about the Lakers.

1) Payton was brilliant last year when Phil Jackson let him control the game. However, in the playoffs, things tightened up and Gary wasn't allowed to control the game like he knows how. That's the big reason why everyone thinks he's washed up. I don't know if you know this, but playing for 14 years with one loose style of play, and then conforming to a foreign, strict and complicated game plan is not eaay.

2) Fisher has been replaced by Rush (who is also quite clutch) and Butler. While Fish was undoubtedly the best at drawing charges, he taught that to Walton and so we aren't missing much of a beat with him. Besides, Fish was a streaky shooter at best. He was not in good standing with the fans until that shot against the Spurs.

3) The loss of the most dominating center in the game was inevitable, BUT we got quality in return. True, the Lakers won't be able to run half-court sets like they used to, but the abortion of The Big Crybaby opened up a gameplan that was previously only run with the second unit: RUNNING GAME. Everyone is acting like the Lakers lost a huge chunk of their game without replacing it with anything. As a fan of basketball and a fan of the Lakers, I'm more than pleased to see that my team will be an energetic, creative and exciting team. Remember how that worked out in the 80's with Showtime?

4) Laker fans know Shaq was a huge part of the 3-peat. However, in the 2 years following that, we also know he was more of a drag than ever. Despite his dominating presence, you have to factor in all the turmoil he caused. He took an extended vacation and neglected to get surgery until late in the preseason, thus missing 11 games. He shows up for camp totally out of shape. He comes to the press after every loss, whining about how he never gets the ball. He and Kobe simply did not get along.

5) There is something that you feel about your team... I just felt like the Lakers didn't have the high spirits and the extra gears to get them past certain teams on some nights, no matter how easy the opponent was. How do you fix this? You change the environment of the team. You mix it up a little. You get rid of the cancer. Shaq was a drag. You can call Kobe a drag too, I'll allow you that. However, the most they affected the team was when the two rubbed eachother the wrong way - one of them had to go.

6) The Lakers no longer have the smug, buddy-buddy team aura that they showed with Shaq. I see this as good. They're going to develop a work ethic now. They're gonna be a working team that gets it done on the court instead of the chalk board. That means a lot.

In conclusion, the Lakers are a totally different team now. It would be unfair to say they lost anything until you saw them play as a team on opening day. There have been so many factors and variables that have changed in this offseason that to count them out all ready would be premature.

magnum_xxxl · 07-22-2004, 12:24 PM

I don't see how a team that hasn't played together can be the pick to win it all, look what happened last year with the lakers.

The T'wolves had the best record in the west, & they are going to be that much better next year having played together last year.

The Spurs have only lost one "key" guy(Hedo), & replaced him with the best shooter over the last five years, If they had Barry last year they would be champs.

Denver added Kenyon Martin, but the rest of the team is the same. They will be better next year.

The Lakers might even miss The Playoffs next year. The way I see it there are 11 teams in the west that are better Than The Lakers.

cameroncrazy822 · 07-22-2004, 02:49 PM

One thing that makes the NBA such a great product is the parity within the league. That's what sets it apart from baseball. I think it's gonna be a very interesting season next year with a whole lotta of mini storylines being played through along with the new look teams. We will see...

Kurant · 07-22-2004, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Halx
WHAT? Kurant, man... you obviously don't know what I know about the Lakers.

1) Payton was brilliant last year when Phil Jackson let him control the game. However, in the playoffs, things tightened up and Gary wasn't allowed to control the game like he knows how. That's the big reason why everyone thinks he's washed up. I don't know if you know this, but playing for 14 years with one loose style of play, and then conforming to a foreign, strict and complicated game plan is not eaay.

I'll give you that, however. He wasen't brilliant by any means. Payton is aging, he's on the downside of his career. You can't argue that. IMO, before last year, he was still one of the best guards in basketball, and he'd by on any team I'd coach. But face it, he's not THE Gary Payton anymore. Not only on offense, but his defense he was torn up the entire finals.

Quote:

2) Fisher has been replaced by Rush (who is also quite clutch) and Butler. While Fish was undoubtedly the best at drawing charges, he taught that to Walton and so we aren't missing much of a beat with him. Besides, Fish was a streaky shooter at best. He was not in good standing with the fans until that shot against the Spurs.

Rush isn't exactly consistant either. Without a doubt he's got the game. We'll see this year. I said last year the Lakers needed to hang on to this guy. He's got talent. Pretty amazing upside to him. Still, inexperienced, and he's going to have to figure it out quick to keep the Lakers alive.

Quote:

3) The loss of the most dominating center in the game was inevitable, BUT we got quality in return. True, the Lakers won't be able to run half-court sets like they used to, but the abortion of The Big Crybaby opened up a gameplan that was previously only run with the second unit: RUNNING GAME. Everyone is acting like the Lakers lost a huge chunk of their game without replacing it with anything. As a fan of basketball and a fan of the Lakers, I'm more than pleased to see that my team will be an energetic, creative and exciting team. Remember how that worked out in the 80's with Showtime?

I agree. On all accounts. However, why was Shaq the constant crybaby? Kobe threw his fits too. Like shooting 3 times in a game or whatever it was. If Kobe wasen't there, would you bash on him too? It goes hand in hand. Kobe and Shaq, didn't get along. It's both of them, not just Shaq.

Quote:

4) Laker fans know Shaq was a huge part of the 3-peat. However, in the 2 years following that, we also know he was more of a drag than ever. Despite his dominating presence, you have to factor in all the turmoil he caused. He took an extended vacation and neglected to get surgery until late in the preseason, thus missing 11 games. He shows up for camp totally out of shape. He comes to the press after every loss, whining about how he never gets the ball. He and Kobe simply did not get along.

Lets get somthing straight. NOTHING Shaq did had ANYTHING to do with why Detroit spanked dat ass. LA was simply not as good. Not as energetic, didn't want it as much, and that wasen't all Shaq. Payton was a tool for 5 games. Kobe really didn't play well. Shaq couldn't get it done, that was a solid team effort in losing.

Quote:

5) There is something that you feel about your team... I just felt like the Lakers didn't have the high spirits and the extra gears to get them past certain teams on some nights, no matter how easy the opponent was. How do you fix this? You change the environment of the team. You mix it up a little. You get rid of the cancer. Shaq was a drag. You can call Kobe a drag too, I'll allow you that. However, the most they affected the team was when the two rubbed eachother the wrong way - one of them had to go.

Coulen't agree more. And I don't call Kobe a drag, I don't call Shaq a drag. I call Kobe AND Shaq, together, a drag.

Quote:

6) The Lakers no longer have the smug, buddy-buddy team aura that they showed with Shaq. I see this as good. They're going to develop a work ethic now. They're gonna be a working team that gets it done on the court instead of the chalk board. That means a lot.

In conclusion, the Lakers are a totally different team now. It would be unfair to say they lost anything until you saw them play as a team on opening day. There have been so many factors and variables that have changed in this offseason that to count them out all ready would be premature.

Your right.

Bottom line, we've seen these other teams, that remained a team, and went through not huge changes, but good changes, and we know how good (argue it or not, but the teams in the west that are contenders, are good) these other teams are, or were. That is still yet to be determined. I just don't think they are legitimate contenders with any of the big boys. But, I could be wrong. We shall see.

In retrospec, The Bulls in the 90's had nothing else except role players, and great supprt for you know who. I could see this going the same way, but that also depends, on you know who. IMO, Kobe can make this work. But Rudy has a shitload of work to do with him.

Halx · 07-22-2004, 05:12 PM

I forgot to address the bench issue. I'm assuming Malone makes his way back, and we'll probably sign a backup point guard like Mike James. Having Rush, Butler, Grant, Walton, Slava, Cook, Vujacic (our rookie, who shows signs of being like Brent Barry or Manu Ginobili in point guard form), Douthit (our other rookie who has been doing his best Emeka Okafor impression in summer league), and whoever we get for George and Fox (that's actually wishful thinking) is not a bad bench at all.

I think they key to the game is not the talent anymore. It's about how you play as a team. The Pistons proved it. As it usually is in sports, most of the teams make adjustments to change their gameplan to something that resembles that of the previous year's champion. (Remember all the American League teams trying to play small-ball in 2003 after the Angels won the world series?) We should see an emphasis on teamwork and hustle this year. Talent be damned.

Hustle, I can tell you, is one thing Shaq is not capable of.

And yes, Payton is on his last legs, but he's like Malone. He's not a high flyer so he stays healthy and adapts to smart play instead of trying to push his old body to the limit.

I honestly think the Lakers will end up in #2 spot again, helped out by the 3-division format.

Contenders:
Spurs - picked up Brent Barry to replace Hedo Turkey-Glue. Not a bad move, but they remain essentially the same team. They will be #1.
Timberpups - Have to re-sign Fred Hoiberg or another gutsy shooter. Essentially the same team as last. They beat people with talent and guts. They will be #3
Queens - Replaced Vlade with Ostertag. That means they're sunk in the middle. No matter how good their passing is, something about that team prevents them from winning anything worthwhile. #5
Grizz - This team played awesome last year. There is little different between them and the Lakers now, except the Lakers have more experience and more elite coach. #6
Nuggets - Great moves! Kiki should be exec of the year. #4
Jazz and Mavs round out the top 8. Jazz get in through their additions and Mavs slip down through their losses.

Cowman · 07-22-2004, 07:51 PM

#2..you're dreaming.

The *core* of the lakers team included Jackson(gone), shaq(gone), fisher(gone), and fox(done for). Whether or not they have a younger, better core can certainly be debated, but to say their core is returning seems a little strange to me..

Look, the problem last year was chemistry. Shaq and Kobe and Phil just were too much for each other.

However, assuming that problem is fixed now may or may not be a great idea. A bunch of young guys tend to have a lot of chemistry together(see: Miami Heat last year); and thats why those 3 were good plays on the heat last year. The 04-05 Lakers however, are a mix of: a bunch of UNPROVEN youngsters (rush, vujaric, walton, etc), one superstar (kobe), and a bunch of old guys (malone, payton, Vlad).....

Then, you have the "other 3". Butler, grant, and odom. They were successful last year with Miami because

A) they had team chemistry
B) they played in a weaker eastern conference

Neither of which they will have on the lakers.

Because of this WEIRD collection of players, I picture the Laker lockerroom being subdivided into a bunch of "cliques"; You've got Kobe running the show, the guy that nobody likes. Then youve got the old guys, then the young guys, and then the "other" guys(grant will probably fit in here, with who else I don't know).

They certainly won't have the talent to be #2 in the western conference, and with a fucked up lockerroom..I can't see them having the team skills to be #2.

Its late at night and this post doesn't make any sense, but its just my opinion fragmented into a bunch of parts. I would be interested in this thread somehow being "saved" so that we could come back 9 months from now and see how it all unfolded..

Mitzkrieg · 07-22-2004, 08:19 PM

hal, just a little correction on the queens....

they signed OsterFag as a backup to Brad Miller who will be their starter. Vlade was not a starter most of last season if i remember. his minutes were cut down to the 20's. Miller is definitely no slouch at the center position. 7 footer who was really good for the queens last year.

i'd say it'll be....

#1 SA
#2 Min
#3 Sac
#4 LA (if malone comes back)
#5 Den
#6 Mavs or LA (if malone does not come back)
#7 Jazz
#8 Pho or Mem

espi · 07-23-2004, 08:14 AM

I can't believe everyone is discounting the Rockets so much. I know they're missing a quality starting PG (Eric Snow or Derek Fisher would have been perfect), but I think TMac and Yao will cause some serious defensive headaches. No one in the Western Conference can match up with Yao, with the possible exception of Brad Miller (and that's a stretch). And you can't put single coverage on TMac or he's gonna scorch you - especially if he learns to dump the ball down to the low block. Don't underestimate Juwan Howard, either. He excelled in Dallas and Denver - he just wasn't a good match in Orlando. (Drew Gooden plays essentially the same game).

With regards to the Lakers, I'm not going to pretend I like their new team make up. Too many guards, not enough front court. Do you really want to start Vlade at center with no legitimate backup? (Don't talk to me about Slava...there's a reason no other teams have offered him a contract yet). And there's no one down low to score - Brian Grant is a rebounder, and Malone (if he comes back) spends more time in a mid-range game these days. I could see opposing teams sagging off both Vlade and Grant and push four defenders to the back court to smother Kobe and close his passing lanes.

Kurant · 07-23-2004, 05:30 PM

^^ I'm with him.

I personally think Houston is a #3 or #4.. I say that, simply because I think they're as good as Sacramento. Toss up between those 2. Biggest suprise, I think they Lakers will be much better then expected, and Denver is going to light people up. (Lakers IMO are a playoff team, still.. This however depends on Kobe)

Nimbletoe · 07-23-2004, 09:19 PM

Lakers will place somewhere 5-8 in the playoffs. SA, Min, Houston and Denver will be in the top 4, unless players in Sactown decide to show up and play, in which case they'll be 3 or 4. The lakers aren't sunk, but they aren't going to do nearly as well as they have been, and will be lucky to make the 2nd round.

And then SA will lose to the pistons in the finals

Zoom · 07-23-2004, 10:45 PM

What we learned from this: Halx, as great a guy as he is, he blindly but very faithfully is on the bandwagon, unless he has liked them before all this.

dtheriault · 07-24-2004, 08:35 AM

Regarding the Lakers drafts picks and some of the younger bench players.

Lakers 2nd round pick-
Marcus Douthit: 6’11/233
The power forward from providence: 7th in the nation as a senior in blocked shots per game.
Summer League game against clippers: 4-9 with 10 points; 12 rebounds and 2 assists; 1 block; 1 steal: 31 minutes.
Against Grizzles
8-12 with 5-7 from the line: 21 points: 7 rebounds; 3 assists; 3 blocked shots; 1 steal.
Against Dallas
11-16 with 4-4 from the line: 26 points; 12 rebounds; 3 blocks; 2 steals

It’s summer league, but he could be a real defensive find. Great change of pace to bring off the bench or to shut someone down late in the game.

Lakers 1st round pick
Sasha Vujacic: 6’7/193 (20 years old)
The euro guy point guard. He went to the same HS as Marcus Douthit
Against grizzles: 9 points; 7 assists; 4 steals: 31 minutes
Against clippers 6 points; 4 assists; 5 turnovers in 30 minutes (not so good)
Real young and I think he’s struggling with the defensive intensity that defines real American basketball. Hopefully he pans out.

Brian Cook: I think he’ll get better and eventually replace slava.
Luke Walton: he’ll be a great bench player, a little slow on the defensive end, but he brings unique passing skills to the game every time he enters.
Rush: They wanted him to play the point, but in the last two summer leagues it’s clear that he’s a two. He’ll be a great back-up to Kobe and have nights of 20-25 points when Kobe’s not there.

Mitzkrieg · 07-25-2004, 07:53 PM

woops.... i thought i was leaving a team out. Houston will definitely be in there somewhere. sheesh, can't believe i left them out.

07-21-2004, 11:29 AM	#41 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I'm still baffled that people actually think the Lake show will be a threat in the west next year. Vlade does not make them a shoe-in either, the man is old as hades, moves like the tin man, he'll maybe play 30 minutes a game. Not to mention the Lakers have 0 depth on the bench this year except for maybe Butler. Maybe Rush and Walton will develop into nice role players, but they are still young and still have to prove themselves... no one game in the playoff's does not count for proving themselves. 1-Minnesota 2- San Antonio 3- Sacramento 4- Dallas 5-Memphis 6- Denver 7- Houston 8- Portland, Utah, Pheonix, Lakers. I'm betting they will be a first round exit if that. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

07-21-2004, 11:30 AM	#42 (permalink)
SiphonX Crazy Location: Miami Beach, Fl	yeah, the lakers will make the playoffs, but when the heat play them, they'll lose =) Shaq said he was gonna return to his "leaner and meaner" days like he was with the Magic. A lean shaq is a scary shaq, plus a great PG in wade and consistent scorer in jones, Heat are going to the top. (Might be biased, check my location) __________________ /Knowledge is Power/

07-21-2004, 11:40 AM	#43 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	nm __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

07-21-2004, 05:53 PM	#44 (permalink)
cameroncrazy822 Junkie Location: MD	I agree totally with you. The Lakers, even with Kobe, have to be devalued after Shaq has made his departure. The Heat's valuation must go through the roof . Shaq is argueably the most dominating center to have ever played the pro game. The Heat are absolutely ahead of the Lakers as far as off season acquisitions are concerned. God help Kobe when he brings it to the middle against the Heat... I'm sure though that the Lakers have upgraded his medical insurance policy for just this inevitability. I don't want to piss off Hal anymore than I already have so that will be all I have to say on this issue. Last edited by cameroncrazy822; 07-21-2004 at 06:33 PM..

07-21-2004, 07:24 PM	#48 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I'm sitting here, smirking. I can't understand how people think the Lakers are sunk. Sure, we're done with Shaq, but we stole the core of a team that exceeded EVERYONE'S expectations and came to within a game of the ECF. We replaced him with the best passing (and flopping) center in the game and the rest of our core is coming back for more. Aside from that, we have a rookie point guard who could be the next Ginobili (it's possible). I watched all these games last year... and I don't think Shaq is so great. I saw many times where the second unit came into the game and completely tore shit up. We have a lot of talent. Now that we have a coach who embraces the skills of our younger team, I don't expect to skip many beats. You can rave all you want about how much Shaq meant to the Lakers and how they're doomed without him, but something inside me tells me that it's just the haters looking for a crack in the armor. I read a nice article today about how a baseball team owner used charts of where players hit the ball on the field to tell if they were in their prime or if they were starting to decline. None of the other owners used this method, and so they made seemingly lopsided trades with this owner, only to find out that they had received an aging player on his downfall. Shaq is on his downfall. Commentary about how Luke Walton, one of the best to get the ball to Shaq in the post, had to lower the trajectory on his passes because Shaq could no longer get up high enough to catch some of them, outlined the same points that the baseball team owner's hitting charts highlighted. While he may be putting up numbers, he's on his way down. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-21-2004, 06:24 PM	#45 (permalink)
Mitzkrieg Insane	Mojo, i don't remember seeing anyone here saying Vlade made the Lakers a shoe-in. why even make that comment? but adding Vlade does give them a better chance. he's one of the better passing center's in the league great with pick and rolls and high posts drawing out the defense. plus, he can flop anyways, i don't know if you were referring to my last post or not, since i did mention Vlade. if you were, re-read it. if you're talkin about Hal's posts, hell, to me he's just trying to be upbeat and behind his team which any real fan would do, albeit a little cocky, but that's just Hal, heh. besides anything in these threads is all speculation and assumption. you can argue it to death, but no one knows what will happen until the season gets underway. i'm sure we'll have some people saying i told you so..... blah blah, hindsight is always 20/20. i always like hearing what other people think, but no one really knows shit. speculation about what will happen next season is just that. can you really tell me you picked Detroit to win the finals before the start of last season? (besides the obvious Detroit fans) don't think anyone did. seemed to me everyone was picking the lakers before all the crap with Kobe and the injuries happened.

07-21-2004, 06:31 PM	#47 (permalink)
Mitzkrieg Insane	ditto, goddfather..... Rush was huge with 3 pointers and steals in several games during the playoffs. my view on Walton is his rookiness was still showing through, he made several bad mistakes at inopportune times. and yeah, he did have one good game in the finals with Detroit. he has a lot of learning to do.

07-22-2004, 05:44 AM	#49 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	They are sunk! It's possible they aren't even the 8th best team in the west. (BTW, I had to laugh at Houston #7 in that list someone posted). Haters? No, no ones a hater, everyone, except Lakers fans realize what Shaq meant to the Lakers. He meant back-to-back-to-back championships. If you want to argue that, you can do it all day. But you know for a fact, the Lakers do not win anything with out Shaq being a part of that team. You want to deny his impact in those 3 years? No, it's the haters that discount Shaq for doing what he did, and saying what he did. The core? You lost the core. Great job, you kept Kobe, and aging downfall? Payton is obviously the epitimy of that. We'll see how it goes with Rudy as the next coach for the Payton/Kobe show. who knows, maybe Payton wasen't very keen to the triangle, which involved him moving more without the ball, instead of working with the ball. Everyone knows Shaq is on the way down, but if you can honestly say that's a reason for the Lakers to rid themselves of him, then Jerry Buss is a bigger idiot then I thought he was. He's STILL the most dominating 7-footer in the game (I said most dominating, not the BEST 7-footer) and he changes the game in a way no one else does. You also lost Fish, which IMO was one guy the needed to keep. He's still decent, he still has uncanny ability to come in and hit 3's off the bench. Oh, don't worry about the fact you have no bench, now. The Lakers IMO are still playoff bound. But they aren't good enough to make a legitimate run. And yes, don't fool yourselves, there is a difference.

07-22-2004, 10:30 AM	#50 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	WHAT? Kurant, man... you obviously don't know what I know about the Lakers. 1) Payton was brilliant last year when Phil Jackson let him control the game. However, in the playoffs, things tightened up and Gary wasn't allowed to control the game like he knows how. That's the big reason why everyone thinks he's washed up. I don't know if you know this, but playing for 14 years with one loose style of play, and then conforming to a foreign, strict and complicated game plan is not eaay. 2) Fisher has been replaced by Rush (who is also quite clutch) and Butler. While Fish was undoubtedly the best at drawing charges, he taught that to Walton and so we aren't missing much of a beat with him. Besides, Fish was a streaky shooter at best. He was not in good standing with the fans until that shot against the Spurs. 3) The loss of the most dominating center in the game was inevitable, BUT we got quality in return. True, the Lakers won't be able to run half-court sets like they used to, but the abortion of The Big Crybaby opened up a gameplan that was previously only run with the second unit: RUNNING GAME. Everyone is acting like the Lakers lost a huge chunk of their game without replacing it with anything. As a fan of basketball and a fan of the Lakers, I'm more than pleased to see that my team will be an energetic, creative and exciting team. Remember how that worked out in the 80's with Showtime? 4) Laker fans know Shaq was a huge part of the 3-peat. However, in the 2 years following that, we also know he was more of a drag than ever. Despite his dominating presence, you have to factor in all the turmoil he caused. He took an extended vacation and neglected to get surgery until late in the preseason, thus missing 11 games. He shows up for camp totally out of shape. He comes to the press after every loss, whining about how he never gets the ball. He and Kobe simply did not get along. 5) There is something that you feel about your team... I just felt like the Lakers didn't have the high spirits and the extra gears to get them past certain teams on some nights, no matter how easy the opponent was. How do you fix this? You change the environment of the team. You mix it up a little. You get rid of the cancer. Shaq was a drag. You can call Kobe a drag too, I'll allow you that. However, the most they affected the team was when the two rubbed eachother the wrong way - one of them had to go. 6) The Lakers no longer have the smug, buddy-buddy team aura that they showed with Shaq. I see this as good. They're going to develop a work ethic now. They're gonna be a working team that gets it done on the court instead of the chalk board. That means a lot. In conclusion, the Lakers are a totally different team now. It would be unfair to say they lost anything until you saw them play as a team on opening day. There have been so many factors and variables that have changed in this offseason that to count them out all ready would be premature. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 07-22-2004 at 10:32 AM..

07-22-2004, 12:24 PM	#51 (permalink)
magnum_xxxl Tilted	I don't see how a team that hasn't played together can be the pick to win it all, look what happened last year with the lakers. The T'wolves had the best record in the west, & they are going to be that much better next year having played together last year. The Spurs have only lost one "key" guy(Hedo), & replaced him with the best shooter over the last five years, If they had Barry last year they would be champs. Denver added Kenyon Martin, but the rest of the team is the same. They will be better next year. The Lakers might even miss The Playoffs next year. The way I see it there are 11 teams in the west that are better Than The Lakers.

07-22-2004, 02:49 PM	#52 (permalink)
cameroncrazy822 Junkie Location: MD	One thing that makes the NBA such a great product is the parity within the league. That's what sets it apart from baseball. I think it's gonna be a very interesting season next year with a whole lotta of mini storylines being played through along with the new look teams. We will see...

07-22-2004, 05:12 PM	#54 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I forgot to address the bench issue. I'm assuming Malone makes his way back, and we'll probably sign a backup point guard like Mike James. Having Rush, Butler, Grant, Walton, Slava, Cook, Vujacic (our rookie, who shows signs of being like Brent Barry or Manu Ginobili in point guard form), Douthit (our other rookie who has been doing his best Emeka Okafor impression in summer league), and whoever we get for George and Fox (that's actually wishful thinking) is not a bad bench at all. I think they key to the game is not the talent anymore. It's about how you play as a team. The Pistons proved it. As it usually is in sports, most of the teams make adjustments to change their gameplan to something that resembles that of the previous year's champion. (Remember all the American League teams trying to play small-ball in 2003 after the Angels won the world series?) We should see an emphasis on teamwork and hustle this year. Talent be damned. Hustle, I can tell you, is one thing Shaq is not capable of. And yes, Payton is on his last legs, but he's like Malone. He's not a high flyer so he stays healthy and adapts to smart play instead of trying to push his old body to the limit. I honestly think the Lakers will end up in #2 spot again, helped out by the 3-division format. Contenders: Spurs - picked up Brent Barry to replace Hedo Turkey-Glue. Not a bad move, but they remain essentially the same team. They will be #1. Timberpups - Have to re-sign Fred Hoiberg or another gutsy shooter. Essentially the same team as last. They beat people with talent and guts. They will be #3 Queens - Replaced Vlade with Ostertag. That means they're sunk in the middle. No matter how good their passing is, something about that team prevents them from winning anything worthwhile. #5 Grizz - This team played awesome last year. There is little different between them and the Lakers now, except the Lakers have more experience and more elite coach. #6 Nuggets - Great moves! Kiki should be exec of the year. #4 Jazz and Mavs round out the top 8. Jazz get in through their additions and Mavs slip down through their losses. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-22-2004, 07:51 PM	#55 (permalink)
Cowman Psycho	#2..you're dreaming. The core of the lakers team included Jackson(gone), shaq(gone), fisher(gone), and fox(done for). Whether or not they have a younger, better core can certainly be debated, but to say their core is returning seems a little strange to me.. Look, the problem last year was chemistry. Shaq and Kobe and Phil just were too much for each other. However, assuming that problem is fixed now may or may not be a great idea. A bunch of young guys tend to have a lot of chemistry together(see: Miami Heat last year); and thats why those 3 were good plays on the heat last year. The 04-05 Lakers however, are a mix of: a bunch of UNPROVEN youngsters (rush, vujaric, walton, etc), one superstar (kobe), and a bunch of old guys (malone, payton, Vlad)..... Then, you have the "other 3". Butler, grant, and odom. They were successful last year with Miami because A) they had team chemistry B) they played in a weaker eastern conference Neither of which they will have on the lakers. Because of this WEIRD collection of players, I picture the Laker lockerroom being subdivided into a bunch of "cliques"; You've got Kobe running the show, the guy that nobody likes. Then youve got the old guys, then the young guys, and then the "other" guys(grant will probably fit in here, with who else I don't know). They certainly won't have the talent to be #2 in the western conference, and with a fucked up lockerroom..I can't see them having the team skills to be #2. Its late at night and this post doesn't make any sense, but its just my opinion fragmented into a bunch of parts. I would be interested in this thread somehow being "saved" so that we could come back 9 months from now and see how it all unfolded.. __________________ You don't like my point of view..but im insane

07-22-2004, 08:19 PM	#56 (permalink)
Mitzkrieg Insane	hal, just a little correction on the queens.... they signed OsterFag as a backup to Brad Miller who will be their starter. Vlade was not a starter most of last season if i remember. his minutes were cut down to the 20's. Miller is definitely no slouch at the center position. 7 footer who was really good for the queens last year. i'd say it'll be.... #1 SA #2 Min #3 Sac #4 LA (if malone comes back) #5 Den #6 Mavs or LA (if malone does not come back) #7 Jazz #8 Pho or Mem

07-23-2004, 08:14 AM	#57 (permalink)
espi Crazy Location: This is not my beautiful house	I can't believe everyone is discounting the Rockets so much. I know they're missing a quality starting PG (Eric Snow or Derek Fisher would have been perfect), but I think TMac and Yao will cause some serious defensive headaches. No one in the Western Conference can match up with Yao, with the possible exception of Brad Miller (and that's a stretch). And you can't put single coverage on TMac or he's gonna scorch you - especially if he learns to dump the ball down to the low block. Don't underestimate Juwan Howard, either. He excelled in Dallas and Denver - he just wasn't a good match in Orlando. (Drew Gooden plays essentially the same game). With regards to the Lakers, I'm not going to pretend I like their new team make up. Too many guards, not enough front court. Do you really want to start Vlade at center with no legitimate backup? (Don't talk to me about Slava...there's a reason no other teams have offered him a contract yet). And there's no one down low to score - Brian Grant is a rebounder, and Malone (if he comes back) spends more time in a mid-range game these days. I could see opposing teams sagging off both Vlade and Grant and push four defenders to the back court to smother Kobe and close his passing lanes. __________________ If it weren't for my horse, I never would've spent that year in college.

07-23-2004, 05:30 PM	#58 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	^^ I'm with him. I personally think Houston is a #3 or #4.. I say that, simply because I think they're as good as Sacramento. Toss up between those 2. Biggest suprise, I think they Lakers will be much better then expected, and Denver is going to light people up. (Lakers IMO are a playoff team, still.. This however depends on Kobe)

07-23-2004, 09:19 PM	#59 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	Lakers will place somewhere 5-8 in the playoffs. SA, Min, Houston and Denver will be in the top 4, unless players in Sactown decide to show up and play, in which case they'll be 3 or 4. The lakers aren't sunk, but they aren't going to do nearly as well as they have been, and will be lucky to make the 2nd round. And then SA will lose to the pistons in the finals __________________ Go Pistons!

07-23-2004, 10:45 PM	#60 (permalink)
Zoom Tilted	What we learned from this: Halx, as great a guy as he is, he blindly but very faithfully is on the bandwagon, unless he has liked them before all this. __________________ ZOOM ZOOM

07-24-2004, 08:35 AM	#61 (permalink)
dtheriault Psycho Location: maybe utah	Regarding the Lakers drafts picks and some of the younger bench players. Lakers 2nd round pick- Marcus Douthit: 6’11/233 The power forward from providence: 7th in the nation as a senior in blocked shots per game. Summer League game against clippers: 4-9 with 10 points; 12 rebounds and 2 assists; 1 block; 1 steal: 31 minutes. Against Grizzles 8-12 with 5-7 from the line: 21 points: 7 rebounds; 3 assists; 3 blocked shots; 1 steal. Against Dallas 11-16 with 4-4 from the line: 26 points; 12 rebounds; 3 blocks; 2 steals It’s summer league, but he could be a real defensive find. Great change of pace to bring off the bench or to shut someone down late in the game. Lakers 1st round pick Sasha Vujacic: 6’7/193 (20 years old) The euro guy point guard. He went to the same HS as Marcus Douthit Against grizzles: 9 points; 7 assists; 4 steals: 31 minutes Against clippers 6 points; 4 assists; 5 turnovers in 30 minutes (not so good) Real young and I think he’s struggling with the defensive intensity that defines real American basketball. Hopefully he pans out. Brian Cook: I think he’ll get better and eventually replace slava. Luke Walton: he’ll be a great bench player, a little slow on the defensive end, but he brings unique passing skills to the game every time he enters. Rush: They wanted him to play the point, but in the last two summer leagues it’s clear that he’s a two. He’ll be a great back-up to Kobe and have nights of 20-25 points when Kobe’s not there. __________________ "Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

07-25-2004, 07:53 PM	#62 (permalink)
Mitzkrieg Insane	woops.... i thought i was leaving a team out. Houston will definitely be in there somewhere. sheesh, can't believe i left them out.